Lying:

[billy rubin]

Generally, lying ain't good, but I can think of examples where it would be good. Which means that "don't lie" is not a fundamental principle - there is something above it that determines its morality in a given instance.  For example, I would willingly lie to a psychopath or Nazi to protect someone I loved, or even a group of people who needed to remain hidden.  It appears that the governing principle is something in the order of "do that which promotes life and well-being" or, as Siz says, the Golden Rule.

you've touched on the hardest moral question about lying. the jew in the closet.

i don't have an answer.

but ipromnoting life and well-being is only a "fundamental principle" in your particulr system, bruce. genghiz khan might have described his moral system differently.

but didn't you mention elsewhere that you are a christian? if you are, then you have a logical right to escape the moral dilemma that traps non-theists. if there is a creator god that determines the nature of right and wrong, then all human beings share in being subject to it, period end. you mentioned it explicitly just above, when you referred to a higher frame of reference. that is absolutely logically valid, although as a non-theist i would argue whether or not it is sound.

non-theists don't have that over-arching authority. all we have is moral relativism and situational ethics.

[billy rubin]

look folks, this is a difficult subject that lots of people don't like to think about, because it makes them have to defend things that they often aren't prepared to defend. if they think a little longer, then the world inevitably looks like a cruel and painful place.

it is.

i've long ago made my peace with it, but i am not here to be controversial.

so please don't take any of this personally. i'm not calling anybody stupid or foolish, but neither am i a monster for stating what i believe to be true.

it's just i've looked behind the curtain for the man working the levers, and there's no one at the controls.

[Siz]

look folks, this is a difficult subject that lots of people don't like to think about, because it makes them have to defend things that they often aren't prepared to defend. if they think a little longer, then the world inevitably looks like a cruel and painful place.

it is.

i've long ago made my peace with it, but i am not here to be controversial.

so please don't take any of this personally. i'm not calling anybody stupid or foolish, but neither am i a monster for stating what i believe to be true.

it's just i've looked behind the curtain for the man working the levers, and there's no one at the controls.

Difficult for you, evidently (though not sure why, as a self-declared nihilist...???)
It's all pretty mundane and straightforward from where I'm sitting, Maybe I'm doing nihilism all wrong?! ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Ecurb Noselrub]

Generally, lying ain't good, but I can think of examples where it would be good. Which means that "don't lie" is not a fundamental principle - there is something above it that determines its morality in a given instance.  For example, I would willingly lie to a psychopath or Nazi to protect someone I loved, or even a group of people who needed to remain hidden.  It appears that the governing principle is something in the order of "do that which promotes life and well-being" or, as Siz says, the Golden Rule.

you've touched on the hardest moral question about lying. the jew in the closet.

i don't have an answer.

but ipromnoting life and well-being is only a "fundamental principle" in your particulr system, bruce. genghiz khan might have described his moral system differently.

but didn't you mention elsewhere that you are a christian? if you are, then you have a logical right to escape the moral dilemma that traps non-theists. if there is a creator god that determines the nature of right and wrong, then all human beings share in being subject to it, period end. you mentioned it explicitly just above, when you referred to a higher frame of reference. that is absolutely logically valid, although as a non-theist i would argue whether or not it is sound.

non-theists don't have that over-arching authority. all we have is moral relativism and situational ethics.

Yes, Genghis Khan would choose a different morality. So, for the non-theist, is there no basis for morality?  Why can't we all just agree that a morality that preserves life is better for the vast, vast majority of us, and dispense with the relatively minor disagreements?

[billy rubin]

Generally, lying ain't good, but I can think of examples where it would be good. Which means that "don't lie" is not a fundamental principle - there is something above it that determines its morality in a given instance.  For example, I would willingly lie to a psychopath or Nazi to protect someone I loved, or even a group of people who needed to remain hidden.  It appears that the governing principle is something in the order of "do that which promotes life and well-being" or, as Siz says, the Golden Rule.

you've touched on the hardest moral question about lying. the jew in the closet.

i don't have an answer.

but ipromnoting life and well-being is only a "fundamental principle" in your particulr system, bruce. genghiz khan might have described his moral system differently.

but didn't you mention elsewhere that you are a christian? if you are, then you have a logical right to escape the moral dilemma that traps non-theists. if there is a creator god that determines the nature of right and wrong, then all human beings share in being subject to it, period end. you mentioned it explicitly just above, when you referred to a higher frame of reference. that is absolutely logically valid, although as a non-theist i would argue whether or not it is sound.

non-theists don't have that over-arching authority. all we have is moral relativism and situational ethics.

Yes, Genghis Khan would choose a different morality. So, for the non-theist, is there no basis for morality?  Why can't we all just agree that a morality that preserves life is better for the vast, vast majority of us, and dispense with the relatively minor disagreements?

thats what people do.

lots easier that way.

[Bad Penny II]

look folks, this is a difficult subject that lots of people don't like to think about, because it makes them have to defend things that they often aren't prepared to defend. if they think a little longer, then the world inevitably looks like a cruel and painful place.

it is.

i've long ago made my peace with it, but i am not here to be controversial.

so please don't take any of this personally. i'm not calling anybody stupid or foolish, but neither am i a monster for stating what i believe to be true.

it's just i've looked behind the curtain for the man working the levers, and there's no one at the controls.

Difficult for you, evidently (though not sure why, as a self-declared nihilist...???)
It's all pretty mundane and straightforward from where I'm sitting, Maybe I'm doing nihilism all wrong?! ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I find all this "it's not real stuff" weird, and weird can't be allowed to exist without an explanation, so I'll make one up. 

Some beans were promised or were expecting eternal life, they thought they were special.  Then they find out they're not, so they over react and say the morality we make up isn't real, of course it is, it's in books.  Big fat books that'd hurt your toe if one fell on it.  Just because your love turned out to be a fake doesn't mean you have to swear off all made up stuff, just lower your expectations and you'll find some real made up stuff that suits you.

[Inertialmass]

Well all y'all can laugh all ya want but I've learned me a valuable lesson here.

Next time I box myself into a philosophical corner replete with inconsistencies and outright contradictions I know now how to deftly escape:

"Just kidding folks. Nothing to see here.  I'm a nihilist!  Everything is meaningless anyway.  I never really meant what I said.  Nothing to see here..."

[billy rubin]

Difficult for you, evidently (though not sure why, as a self-declared nihilist...???)
It's all pretty mundane and straightforward from where I'm sitting, Maybe I'm doing nihilism all wrong?! ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

yes. if you re a nihilist, siz. you re doing it wrong.

[Siz]

Well all y'all can laugh all ya want but I've learned me a valuable lesson here.

Next time I box myself into a philosophical corner replete with inconsistencies and outright contradictions I know now how to deftly escape:

"Just kidding folks. Nothing to see here.  I'm a nihilist!  Everything is meaningless anyway.  I never really meant what I said.  Nothing to see here..."

'cept on this occasion, the introduction of nihilism actually muddied the waters beyond reason.

I would have accepted the argument that a personally-constructed moral framework led to a truth-telling compulsion. Can't really argue with that (other than, perhaps, a foray into critical thinking). Nihilism, in this case, is a red herring that is neither applicable or true to our morally tortured Bizzy.

[billy rubin]

look folks, this is a difficult subject that lots of people don't like to think about, because it makes them have to defend things that they often aren't prepared to defend. if they think a little longer, then the world inevitably looks like a cruel and painful place.

it is.

i've long ago made my peace with it, but i am not here to be controversial.

so please don't take any of this personally. i'm not calling anybody stupid or foolish, but neither am i a monster for stating what i believe to be true.

it's just i've looked behind the curtain for the man working the levers, and there's no one at the controls.

Difficult for you, evidently (though not sure why, as a self-declared nihilist...???)
It's all pretty mundane and straightforward from where I'm sitting, Maybe I'm doing nihilism all wrong?! ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I find all this "it's not real stuff" weird, and weird can't be allowed to exist without an explanation, so I'll make one up. 

Some beans were promised or were expecting eternal life, they thought they were special.  Then they find out they're not, so they over react and say the morality we make up isn't real, of course it is, it's in books.  Big fat books that'd hurt your toe if one fell on it.  Just because your love turned out to be a fake doesn't mean you have to swear off all made up stuff, just lower your expectations and you'll find some real made up stuff that suits you.

who zaid anything wasnt real, penny?

my beliefs and behavior exist. they are Quite real. i just said they were meaninglezz. if i put on a coat on a warm day just because i feel like it, am i less real because im not naked?

meaninglezzness is quite real. doesnt upset me any, but it apparently bothers other people.

[Bad Penny II]

who zaid anything wasnt real, penny?

my beliefs and behavior exist. they are Quite real. i just said they were meaninglezz. if i put on a coat on a warm day just because i feel like it, am i less real because im not naked?

meaninglezzness is quite real. doesnt upset me any, but it apparently bothers other people.

This guy did.

but i do it anyway, and on good dayz it even feelz like it might be real. treating other people sith the same respect i would hope for myself is part of that.

[Siz]

Difficult for you, evidently (though not sure why, as a self-declared nihilist...???)
It's all pretty mundane and straightforward from where I'm sitting, Maybe I'm doing nihilism all wrong?! ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

yes. if you re a nihilist, siz. you re doing it wrong.

Righto!

I don't even know why you introduced nihilism into this thread. It doesn't help the defense of your compulsion to tell the truth in the face of a person's suffering. The fact your compulsion exists obviates your nihilism - things DO have meaning for you. Evidently, very strong meaning for you to take such a rigid stance on lying.

[billy rubin]

ah

i understand, penny.

yes. my beliefs are meaningless. my life is meaningless. the universe is meaningless. your values and life is equally withou purpose. so all our hopes, dreams, and beliefs are ultimately futile. in that sense, they are not real, although they certainly come with emotions, personal valuez, and a lifetime of inveztment.

if you have so.e transcendent knowledge of meaning in your life beyond the swirling moleculez that temporarily cluster together at your keyboard, then i am wrong.

so when i say that on good dayz my system of values seems almost real, i say that it appears to have meaning. so long as i dont think about it too much, or too carefully, that state holds. but not for very long.

[billy rubin]

Difficult for you, evidently (though not sure why, as a self-declared nihilist...???)
It's all pretty mundane and straightforward from where I'm sitting, Maybe I'm doing nihilism all wrong?! ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

yes. if you re a nihilist, siz. you re doing it wrong.

Righto!

I don't even know why you introduced nihilism into this thread. It doesn't help the defense of your compulsion to tell the truth in the face of a person's suffering. The fact your compulsion exists obviates your nihilism - things DO have meaning for you. Evidently, very strong meaning for you to take such a rigid stance on lying.

siz, if you dont like the anzwerz, dont azk the questions.

[Bad Penny II]

I believe in Darwin's day there was some opposition to the idea that apes are our kin.
NO! NO! We're more than them!
It didn't bother some, our intellectual forebears perhaps.
Apes have a way of getting on that is real.
Ook.
Ook brother, some do over think it.