Happy Atheist Forum

General => Philosophy => Topic started by: Bad Penny II on May 03, 2018, 02:00:18 PM

Title: Lying:
Post by: Bad Penny II on May 03, 2018, 02:00:18 PM
The deliberate act of deviating from the truth.
That'll do as a definition, bullshitting is lying.

I don't accept the absolute that lying should never be done.
I cite the dementia patient who asks "when will my wife be here?"
Carer says later, even though the wife's long dead.
If the carer said she was dead, dementia guy'd be upset for hours.
Wouldn't know why after a while but still would be.
Same thing day after day until he died or the rot removed the memory.
But dementia guy isn't full faculty, this example doesn't satisfy for normal human interaction.
Fair point Green Me, so lying to children... [beard stroking smiley]

I avoid lying, I don't like doing it and it is a truism that it complicates things.

When someone lies to you, what do you think of the person?
How does it effect future interaction?
Anyway the subject is lying and Bill and Monica are welcome.
Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: Arturo on May 03, 2018, 02:35:34 PM
They say the earlier a child begins to lie the smarter that they are.
Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: Bad Penny II on May 03, 2018, 03:19:32 PM
Quote from: Arturo on May 03, 2018, 02:35:34 PM
They say the earlier a child begins to lie the smarter that they are.

A Wikipedian says:
QuoteA maladaptation (/ˌmælædæpˈteɪʃən/) is a trait that is (or has become) more harmful than helpful, in contrast with an adaptation, which is more helpful than harmful.

How many legs does a Wikipedian have?
Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: Arturo on May 03, 2018, 03:35:53 PM
Quote from: Bad Penny II on May 03, 2018, 03:19:32 PM
Quote from: Arturo on May 03, 2018, 02:35:34 PM
They say the earlier a child begins to lie the smarter that they are.

A Wikipedian says:
QuoteA maladaptation (/ˌmælædæpˈteɪʃən/) is a trait that is (or has become) more harmful than helpful, in contrast with an adaptation, which is more helpful than harmful.

How many legs does a Wikipedian have?

I mean the child will find things out on their own whether you like it or not.

You aren't going to tell your kid that there are people who actively want to kill them at all hours of the day...Or that this happened:
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/297240309379629056/441320242921209858/I_love_democracy.png)


Also we hate you because you cry and demand a lot.
Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: billy rubin on January 01, 2020, 11:23:43 AM
i dont lie, 3xcept by miztake. when i discover i have lied, i go back and correct myself. i have not been perfect, but i can remember every lie i have uttered for at least the last  30 years. all of them bother me and always will.

lying iui s a big deal, and cuts to the heart of our relationships with other people. to lie to someone is the ultimate act of disrezpect, because you are telling them that they are unworthy of knowing the truth about the world that you know. lies intended to decieve you to do you harm are beyond any redemption. they qualify as assaults in the same way as hitti g you over the head with a club.

the dementia example is painful, but no different from a doctor looking you in the eye and lying to you about your fatal diagnosis. i wouldnt lie to the dementia patient. i wouldnt necessarilly answer though.choosing not to provide truth is different from misrepresenting it.

when someone lies to me, i never take what they say at face value again. how could i do otherwise? i dont always check up on what they say, because not everything i s important. but trust is never recoverable.

the big question for me has always been the jew in the closet. i dont think there is a more fundamental moral test, and i have never been able to answer the questions it raizes.
Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: Dark Lightning on January 01, 2020, 04:30:11 PM
I don't have much use for lying or liars. Lying requires one to keep track of what story was told to whom, and I don't have time for that.
Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: billy rubin on January 01, 2020, 04:46:10 PM
that's true.

many years ago i successfully lied my way through a polygraph test to get a job as a cashier (not hard to do if you know how polygraph tests work). for a long time ikept a list of what i had lied about in a drawer so that i could remember what the story was that i had used.

then one day i said that's not who i want to be, and tossed it out. now i tell the truth exclusively and don't have to remember alternate stories.
Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: Dark Lightning on January 01, 2020, 07:48:16 PM
I have a bitch of a time passing a polygraph, and I hadn't done anything wrong. Then, I know people who cruise right through them that I wouldn't trust any further than I could throw them.
Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: billy rubin on January 01, 2020, 09:09:56 PM
you have to know how the particular one they're using works. back then they were analog, with a chest strap, i think, to measure changes in your breathing, and then some sort of electrodes to look at changesin skin conductivity.

the operator would set you up and ask a series of innocuous questions to derive a control, and then ask a series of important questions.

what you did was make sure that you manipulated your body for the control questions. tensing your chest very slightly, increasing breathing rate very sightly, to register with more nervous-looking settings than normal. can't do much with skin conductivity. might have been something looking at heart rate. it's been a long time.

then when the operator asked critical questions, you just relaxed. any physical reactions you had were more similar to the control. i dunno what the guy thought of me, but they sent me off the circle K to handle money right afterwards. i wasn't dishonest, but i didn't feel like going on record about the pretty heavy drug use that was receding into my past at the time.
Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: Inertialmass on January 02, 2020, 03:12:54 AM
That's fascinating.  I met another online Quaker who too claimed publicly never to lie.  Is that like a Quaker thing?  A special vow?

My default assumption would be that mature adults generally don't lie, lest it be that benign white lie, so why gratuitously even broach it or braggadociate upon it?

Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: jumbojak on January 02, 2020, 03:53:26 AM
Bullshitting is lying? That's like... My favorite hobby. Every story gets better in the retelling!
Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: xSilverPhinx on January 02, 2020, 04:02:22 AM
Quote from: Bad Penny II on May 03, 2018, 02:00:18 PM
The deliberate act of deviating from the truth.
That'll do as a definition, bullshitting is lying.

I don't accept the absolute that lying should never be done.
I cite the dementia patient who asks "when will my wife be here?"
Carer says later, even though the wife's long dead.
If the carer said she was dead, dementia guy'd be upset for hours.
Wouldn't know why after a while but still would be.
Same thing day after day until he died or the rot removed the memory.
But dementia guy isn't full faculty, this example doesn't satisfy for normal human interaction.
Fair point Green Me, so lying to children... [beard stroking smiley]

I avoid lying, I don't like doing it and it is a truism that it complicates things.

When someone lies to you, what do you think of the person?
How does it effect future interaction?
Anyway the subject is lying and Bill and Monica are welcome.

A seriously complicated issue with lots more grey area than black-and-white. Omissions (is that lying too?), white lies, etc are important social buffers. I don't like lying but I see the necessity for white lies in some cases, to protect others from harmful truths they don't really need to know and to protect myself from others who would harm me. Relationships change and people change with time and in such a world you don't want to be used and abused because of your true feelings or information that makes you vulnerable.

If someone lies to me, after the initial anger and distrust I would analyse their intent and, depending on their motives decide to trust them -- or not -- after that, and if I decide their lying was justified I'd work to slowly build that trust again. It isn't easy but can be done.

As for people who say they never lie, I tend to believe that is in itself a lie. ;) Some people might genuinely believe they always speak the truth, others say they do in order to manipulate victims and erode skepticism. I'm generally wary.
Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: Anne D. on January 02, 2020, 05:18:41 AM
I'm sure I lie constantly in social situations with acquaintances about inconsequential things. I don't think I could survive them otherwise.
Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: Icarus on January 02, 2020, 06:07:12 AM
Is it OK to lie about the size of the fish I caught?  Sometimes we lie when we think, or at least wish, that we ere telling the truth.

Then there is the other thing described by this sentence:  The older I get the better I was.

Our esteemed president lies for sport it would seem.   He may be the reigning champion of the liars club.
Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: billy rubin on January 02, 2020, 11:41:31 AM
lying is generally consideredvfc acceptable only inbthe context of games,  whereb everyone agrees that bluffing or deception is mutually accepatable.

i tease children by telling them outrageous and obvious lies, making them bigger and bigger until they triumphantly find me out. but if they dont, i dont leave them without telling them what tbe truth really is.

white liez are the onez that are most insifdiouz. those are the lies we tell while making the excuze that the lie is better than tbe truth, for some reason or another. i disagree with that. people tell me that white liez lubricate human relationships. i believe they corrupt them instead.
Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: Bad Penny II on January 02, 2020, 12:11:11 PM
Quote from: billy rubin on January 01, 2020, 11:23:43 AM

the dementia example is painful, but no different from a doctor looking you in the eye and lying to you about your fatal diagnosis.

I think it is different, it is so obviously different I won't bother wasting keystrokes.


Quote from: billy rubin on January 01, 2020, 11:23:43 AM
i wouldnt lie to the dementia patient. i wouldnt necessarilly answer though.choosing not to provide truth is different from misrepresenting it.

You sound like you've got principles, while you regret the suffering the old fart suffers these are the rules so,,,
He washes his hands
Ye cool Green, he washes his hands like fricken Pontius Bureaucrat.
If you want to be kind to the old farts you lie to them.
If you've got some strict fragile world view you've spent years making up then you don't.
Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: billy rubin on January 02, 2020, 12:40:34 PM
nope.

i do have principles. i also have compassion. but lying to anyone is a dishonezt and demeaning rejection of what bazic dignity they have left in their livez.

if i can lie to a dementia patient to keep him happy and ignorant about his dead wife, then i can lie to you to keep you happy and ignorant about my affair with your live one. if the only thing that matters is keeping you happy and ignorant,  i can lie to you about tbe money i steal from your bank account or the political goals i will pursue after you elect me to office.

the dementia example iz difficult. but if integrity doesnt matter in one thing, it doeznt matter in all things. i dont know what i would do in that case, bu5 the 3asy lie is not my first choice.
Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: xSilverPhinx on January 02, 2020, 01:08:47 PM
Quote from: billy rubin on January 02, 2020, 12:40:34 PM
nope.

i do have principles. i also have compassion. but lying to anyone is a dishonezt and demeaning rejection of what bazic dignity they have left in their livez.

if i can lie to a dementia patient to keep him happy and ignorant about his dead wife, then i can lie to you to keep you happy and ignorant about my affair with your live one. if the only thing that matters is keeping you happy and ignorant,  i can lie to you about tbe money i steal from your bank account or the political goals i will pursue after you elect me to office.

the dementia example iz difficult. but if integrity doesnt matter in one thing, it doeznt matter in all things. i dont know what i would do in that case, bu5 the 3asy lie is not my first choice.

I don't see lying as a dangerous slippery slope. You can tell a white lie here and there without turning into a pathological liar. People as a whole lie, but few are pathological cases. The main difference between white lies and other lies is the first is way less selfish than the other which is mostly for self-serving personal gains. The way I see it, you can't put both in the same morality bag: lying to avoid unnecessary distress in someone else with lying to get away with something.

In the case of a dementia patient who is probably not aware that they are suffering from dementia during less lucid moments will suffer tremendously if you tell them their wife, who they love and think is alive and well, has actually passed away long ago. Besides causing intense emotional distress, it causes mental confusion. Both cause suffering. Why put someone with dementia through that? For what? So you can feel better about yourself because you have integrity while the dementia patient slips in and out of lucidity and will ask for their wife again at another time? I think it's incredibly selfish to do so, just so the person with fixed principles can feel better about themselves because they stuck to their guns.
Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: Bad Penny II on January 02, 2020, 01:09:14 PM
Quote from: billy rubin on January 02, 2020, 12:40:34 PM
nope.

i do have principles. i also have compassion. but lying to anyone is a dishonezt and demeaning rejection of what bazic dignity they have left in their livez.

if i can lie to a dementia patient to keep him happy and ignorant about his dead wife, then i can lie to you to keep you happy and ignorant about my affair with your live one. if the only thing that matters is keeping you happy and ignorant,  i can lie to you about tbe money i steal from your bank account or the political goals i will pursue after you elect me to office.

the dementia example iz difficult. but if integrity doesnt matter in one thing, it doeznt matter in all things. i dont know what i would do in that case, bu5 the 3asy lie is not my first choice.

So you have to be cruel 'cause it gets too complicated making exceptions to the rules you made up?
Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: Bad Penny II on January 02, 2020, 01:52:15 PM
Decades ago on the TV I saw a religious guy I despise defending his anti abortion stance.

The interviewer introduces the raped woman being forced to carry the rapists' child scenario.

Interviewer says something, asshole replies, ping pong, ping pong, religious asshole says he's trying to be consistent.

I despise it when fuckers make others suffer for the sake of their consistency.
Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: billy rubin on January 02, 2020, 01:56:18 PM
i see that i have brought up an awkward question again.
Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: Siz on January 02, 2020, 02:44:45 PM
Quote from: jumbojak on January 02, 2020, 03:53:26 AM
Bullshitting is lying? That's like... My favorite hobby. Every story gets better in the retelling!
Never let the truth get in the way of a good story!
Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: jumbojak on January 02, 2020, 03:32:17 PM
Quote from: Siz on January 02, 2020, 02:44:45 PM
Quote from: jumbojak on January 02, 2020, 03:53:26 AM
Bullshitting is lying? That's like... My favorite hobby. Every story gets better in the retelling!
Never let the truth get in the way of a good story!

Exactly! If it weren't for the embellishment of history we wouldn't have Joshua, Hercules, and Paul Bunyan. I take it as my personal responsibility to lead the gullible into believing the unbelievable. Doing so makes the world a far more interesting place.
Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: Inertialmass on January 02, 2020, 03:35:49 PM
If a number of interlocutors explain to a person the very real damage potential in his single-minded, selfish worldview, and that person replies by claiming that he's this heroic, Socratic pot-stirrer, is that person mildly delusional or is he in fact lying to himself and lying to others?


Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: Magdalena on January 03, 2020, 02:49:21 AM
Quote from: billy rubin on January 02, 2020, 01:56:18 PM
i see that i have brought up an awkward question again.
(https://media2.giphy.com/media/10MG0J9z19Sjjq/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: Bad Penny II on January 03, 2020, 12:15:37 PM
Quote from: billy rubin on January 01, 2020, 11:23:43 AM
to lie to someone is the ultimate act of disrezpect, because you are telling them that they are unworthy of knowing the truth about the world that you know.

I could probably think of a more ultimate act of disrezpect.
I think they are cheating, it is disrespectful, I'd put a frowny face on their permanent record, mark 'em as one to be watched, avoid if possible, it's kind of insulting, it seems they think you are a thing to be gamed.

Quote from: billy rubin on January 01, 2020, 11:23:43 AM
lies intended to decieve you to do you harm are beyond any redemption. they qualify as assaults in the same way as hitti g you over the head with a club.

An insult, an assault, I suppose but not in the same way as getting clubbed in the head.

Quote from: billy rubin on January 01, 2020, 11:23:43 AMthe dementia example is painful, but no different from a doctor looking you in the eye and lying to you about your fatal diagnosis.

Why do you say things that maybe share some characteristic but definitely aren't the same are the same?


Quote from: billy rubin on January 01, 2020, 11:23:43 AMi wouldnt lie to the dementia patient. i wouldnt necessarilly answer though.choosing not to provide truth is different from misrepresenting it.

Avoidance may be OK, or maybe disrespectful.
Perhaps a more about you thing than a regarding them thing.
Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: Bad Penny II on January 03, 2020, 12:21:42 PM
Quote from: Siz on January 02, 2020, 02:44:45 PM
Quote from: jumbojak on January 02, 2020, 03:53:26 AM
Bullshitting is lying? That's like... My favorite hobby. Every story gets better in the retelling!
Never let the truth get in the way of a good story!

OK, I'm willing to offer a holy dispensation for Bullshit, but only if it's good.
Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: Siz on January 03, 2020, 01:20:53 PM
Quote from: billy rubin on January 02, 2020, 12:40:34 PM
nope.

i do have principles. i also have compassion. but lying to anyone is a dishonezt and demeaning rejection of what bazic dignity they have left in their livez.

if i can lie to a dementia patient to keep him happy and ignorant about his dead wife, then i can lie to you to keep you happy and ignorant about my affair with your live one. if the only thing that matters is keeping you happy and ignorant,  i can lie to you about tbe money i steal from your bank account or the political goals i will pursue after you elect me to office.

the dementia example iz difficult. but if integrity doesnt matter in one thing, it doeznt matter in all things. i dont know what i would do in that case, bu5 the 3asy lie is not my first choice.

Whilst currently of sound mind, would you elect to recieve lies in your twighlight, dementia-fuddled years for the sake of an easy ride? I would.
The Golden Rule applies.
Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: billy rubin on January 03, 2020, 01:27:56 PM
since you have asked me, my answer is no.

lying to me is a dehumanizing act, one which treats me as a fixture to be silenced, like an annoyingly leaky faucet.

treating me with compassion, as a human being deserving of tbought and care, requirez more than an easy lie. it requires care and attention  to who i am, in each and every instance.

in america we drug people in care facilities who present us with decizionz we dont want to deal with. lying to me is no different.
Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: Bad Penny II on January 03, 2020, 02:23:19 PM
Quote from: billy rubin on January 03, 2020, 01:27:56 PM
since you have asked me, my answer is no.

lying to me is a dehumanizing act, one which treats me as a fixture to be silenced, like an annoyingly leaky faucet.

treating me with compassion, as a human being deserving of tbought and care, requirez more than an easy lie. it requires care and attention  to who i am, in each and every instance.

in america we drug people in care facilities who present us with decizionz we dont want to deal with. lying to me is no different.

Yet evading the question of when my long dead wife is going to visit is respectful.

Drug the old if they're being inconvenient, leave the unwanted young for the rabbits, abort if it's your whim, if the scan says worry abort, I don't care if the old think they deserve better,  they should have walked out into the winter when they still had legs.

You need to make a ridiculous simile to confound those who bother to read your shit.

It's exactly like the parable of old Barney in the scriptures.
Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: xSilverPhinx on January 03, 2020, 02:46:08 PM
Pardon my asking, billy rubin, but did you ever have to care for someone with severe dementia or have someone close to you afflicted with such a disease?

You've compared lying to a dementia patient to a person receiving a fatal diagnosis (I'm assuming of a sound mind) more than once, and treat them the same, but they are not the same, for moral and practical reasons.

Another difficult scenario: would you tell a very young child that their parents will one day be dead/gone forever? I can't think of anything a young one could hear that would be more distressful and could have lasting emotional implications in some children. Would you put them through that before they are a little older and more mature so you could feel better about yourself because you didn't withhold the truth? Serious question.
Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: billy rubin on January 03, 2020, 03:11:32 PM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on January 03, 2020, 02:46:08 PM
Pardon my asking, billy rubin, but did you ever have to care for someone with severe dementia or have someone close to you afflicted with such a disease?

my grandfather spent his lazt years asking the woman in bed with him if she waz hiz wife. she explained to him each time that she had been his wife for fifty years. i have 25 percent of his chromosomez and expect to have a one in four chance of endi g up the same way.  i have never had to care for anyone personally and would find dealing with truth and honezty in the relationship as the most important mark of compassion and respect i can imagine.

Quote
You've compared lying to a dementia patient to a person receiving a fatal diagnosis (I'm assuming of a sound mind) more than once, and treat them the same, but they are not the same, for moral and practical reasons.

tbey are exactly the zame. both acts dehumanize another person.

Quote
Another difficult scenario: would you tell a very young child that their parents will one day be dead/gone forever? I can't think of anything a young one could hear that would be more distressful and could have lasting emotional implications in some children. Would you put them through that before they are a little older and more mature so you could feel better about yourself because you didn't withhold the truth? Serious question.

i have never lied to a child, which i regard az an act of ultimate betrayal of care and rezponsibility.  i have five children, and have never lied to tbem at any time, on any subject. two are now adults, and all are apparently normal.

silver, would you betray tbe trust of a child in order to go home and feel better about yourself, knowing that forcing the child to grow up in a lie waz lezz important than you getting a goox nights sleep by avoiding a very difficult part of genuine care and nurture?

this is abzolutely not an easy question, and theres no way being honezt is an eazy tbing. deception is always easy, but in my mibd it is alwayz wrong. i think the answer when confronted with tbe dilemma is to look for a better way.
Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: Siz on January 03, 2020, 03:24:00 PM
Quote from: billy rubin on January 03, 2020, 01:27:56 PM
since you have asked me, my answer is no.

lying to me is a dehumanizing act, one which treats me as a fixture to be silenced, like an annoyingly leaky faucet.

treating me with compassion, as a human being deserving of tbought and care, requirez more than an easy lie. it requires care and attention  to who i am, in each and every instance.

in america we drug people in care facilities who present us with decizionz we dont want to deal with. lying to me is no different.
Asking someone to relive the grief of loss every single day does not strike me as compassionate. But, bravo for winning the integrity Gold medal!
Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: billy rubin on January 03, 2020, 03:47:01 PM
i'm a nihilizt, siz. there's no meaning to be found here.

do you believe otherwise?
Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: Siz on January 03, 2020, 03:54:47 PM
Quote from: billy rubin on January 03, 2020, 03:47:01 PM
i'm a nontheist, siz. there's no meaning to be found here.

do you believe otherwise?
Sorry, Bizzy, I don't understand the relevance of that post.
Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: Siz on January 03, 2020, 04:02:53 PM
Quote from: billy rubin on January 03, 2020, 03:47:01 PM
i'm a nihilizt, siz. there's no meaning to be found here.

do you believe otherwise?

Now, what would a Nihilist be doing do with a compulsion to tell the truth?
Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: billy rubin on January 03, 2020, 04:04:18 PM
there iz no such tbing as truth, or integrity either, siz, in the end. no medals, no self-satizfaction. no right, no wrong, no valid moral compass. no good, no evil.

nothing you or i do can change that.

the absurdity of the situation is that i chooze to live as if there were meaning. so an illusion of integrity, of treating people with truth, respect, and compazsion, is in the end a suit of clothes that i wear. it lets me fit in, even tbough i know it can be taken off, and many people do.

but i do it anyway, and on good dayz it even feelz like it might be real. treating other people sith the same respect i would hope for myself is part of that.
Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: Siz on January 03, 2020, 04:39:06 PM
Quote from: billy rubin on January 03, 2020, 04:04:18 PM
there iz no such tbing as truth, or integrity either, siz, in the end. no medals, no self-satizfaction. no right, no wrong, no valid moral compass. no good, no evil.

nothing you or i do can change that.

the absurdity of the situation is that i chooze to live as if there were meaning. so an illusion of integrity, of treating people with truth, respect, and compazsion, is in the end a suit of clothes that i wear. it lets me fit in, even tbough i know it can be taken off, and many people do.

but i do it anyway, and on good dayz it even feelz like it might be real. treating other people as if tbey deserve rezpect is part of that.
So, you don't think any of it has any meaning, yet you still choose to inflict unnecessary grief on people for the sake of your emperors new clothes? You're a nasty piece of work, Bizzy.




Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: billy rubin on January 03, 2020, 04:54:44 PM
well, of courze i disagree, siz. i think your suggeztion is much worze.

but since we're all non-believers here, would it be better just to shoot them in the head instead and avoid all the unnecessary bother?

jesuz isnt stopping us.

Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: Siz on January 03, 2020, 05:27:45 PM
Quote from: billy rubin on January 03, 2020, 04:54:44 PM
well, of courze i disagree, siz. i think your suggeztion is much worze.

but since we're all non-believers here, would it be better just to shoot them in the head instead and avoid all the unnecessary bother?

jesuz isnt stopping us.

I'm probably the wrong person to ask that of, but the point is that your brand of 'respect' is more concerned with your own (meaningless?) sensibilies than the (real) suffering of others.

Perhaps we can discuss what you mean by 'respect'? I would consider your choice to ask me to experience the grief of the death of my wife, fresh, day after day the epitome of disrespect. The height of cruelty, in fact.

(Full disclosure: She's not dead)



Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: billy rubin on January 03, 2020, 06:12:07 PM
Quote from: Siz on January 03, 2020, 05:27:45 PM
I'm probably the wrong person to ask that of, but the point is that your brand of 'respect' is more concerned with your own (meaningless?) sensibilies than the (real) suffering of others.

Perhaps we can discuss what you mean by 'respect'? I would consider your choice to ask me to experience the grief of the death of my wife, fresh, day after day the epitome of disrespect. The height of cruelty, in fact.

(Full disclosure: She's not dead)



well, before i can answer that, we have to agree on a common ground for discuzsion.

you've touched on the core of the important matter with your judgement that my sensibilities are "meani nglezz," siz.

whose sensibilities are meaningful? yours?

why?

Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: No one on January 03, 2020, 06:32:27 PM
Lying isn't as black and white as exhibited by the painting.
Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: Siz on January 03, 2020, 06:38:45 PM
Quote from: billy rubin on January 03, 2020, 06:12:07 PM
Quote from: Siz on January 03, 2020, 05:27:45 PM
I'm probably the wrong person to ask that of, but the point is that your brand of 'respect' is more concerned with your own (meaningless?) sensibilies than the (real) suffering of others.

Perhaps we can discuss what you mean by 'respect'? I would consider your choice to ask me to experience the grief of the death of my wife, fresh, day after day the epitome of disrespect. The height of cruelty, in fact.

(Full disclosure: She's not dead)



well, before i can answer that, we have to agree on a common ground for discuzsion.

you've touched on the core of the important matter with your judgement that my sensibilities are "meani nglezz," siz.

Not my judgement, all yours:
Quote from: bizzy
the absurdity of the situation is that i chooze to live as if there were meaning. so an illusion of integrity, of treating people with truth, respect, and compazsion, is in the end a suit of clothes that i wear. it lets me fit in, even tbough i know it can be taken off...
...Or were you lying?
Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on January 03, 2020, 08:39:39 PM
Generally, lying ain't good, but I can think of examples where it would be good. Which means that "don't lie" is not a fundamental principle - there is something above it that determines its morality in a given instance.  For example, I would willingly lie to a psychopath or Nazi to protect someone I loved, or even a group of people who needed to remain hidden.  It appears that the governing principle is something in the order of "do that which promotes life and well-being" or, as Siz says, the Golden Rule.   
Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: billy rubin on January 03, 2020, 10:10:15 PM
Quote from: Siz on January 03, 2020, 06:38:45 PM
Quote from: billy rubin on January 03, 2020, 06:12:07 PM
Quote from: Siz on January 03, 2020, 05:27:45 PM
I'm probably the wrong person to ask that of, but the point is that your brand of 'respect' is more concerned with your own (meaningless?) sensibilies than the (real) suffering of others.

Perhaps we can discuss what you mean by 'respect'? I would consider your choice to ask me to experience the grief of the death of my wife, fresh, day after day the epitome of disrespect. The height of cruelty, in fact.

(Full disclosure: She's not dead)



well, before i can answer that, we have to agree on a common ground for discuzsion.

you've touched on the core of the important matter with your judgement that my sensibilities are "meani nglezz," siz.

Not my judgement, all yours:
Quote from: bizzy
the absurdity of the situation is that i chooze to live as if there were meaning. so an illusion of integrity, of treating people with truth, respect, and compazsion, is in the end a suit of clothes that i wear. it lets me fit in, even tbough i know it can be taken off...
...Or were you lying?

then i will spell it out, siz. remember, you asked me for my opinion.

i do believe my moral system is meaningless.

so is yours, no matter how attached you are to it.

we're all just thick masses of cosmic dust, temporarily passing through time and animated by chemical reactions. i choose an arbitrary set of rules to follow that are ultimately meaningless in order to move through life with as much harmony as i value.

good, evil, pain, suffering, adaptive fitness, social cohesion, kin selection, group selection, aesthetics, emotion, god, country, race and species-- all the parameters that we like to think underlie a moral system for us, are all meaningless. we just muddle through and do the best we can.




Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: billy rubin on January 03, 2020, 10:16:46 PM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on January 03, 2020, 08:39:39 PM
Generally, lying ain't good, but I can think of examples where it would be good. Which means that "don't lie" is not a fundamental principle - there is something above it that determines its morality in a given instance.  For example, I would willingly lie to a psychopath or Nazi to protect someone I loved, or even a group of people who needed to remain hidden.  It appears that the governing principle is something in the order of "do that which promotes life and well-being" or, as Siz says, the Golden Rule.

you've touched on the hardest moral question about lying. the jew in the closet.

i don't have an answer.

but ipromnoting life and well-being is only a "fundamental principle" in your particulr system, bruce. genghiz khan might have described his moral system differently.

but didn't you mention elsewhere that you are a christian? if you are, then you have a logical right to escape the moral dilemma that traps non-theists. if there is a creator god that determines the nature of right and wrong, then all human beings share in being subject to it, period end. you mentioned it explicitly just above, when you referred to a higher frame of reference. that is absolutely logically valid, although as a non-theist i would argue whether or not it is sound.

non-theists don't have that over-arching authority. all we have is moral relativism and situational ethics.

Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: billy rubin on January 03, 2020, 10:21:54 PM
look folks, this is a difficult subject that lots of people don't like to think about, because it makes them have to defend things that they often aren't prepared to defend. if they think a little longer, then the world inevitably looks like a cruel and painful place.

it is.

i've long ago made my peace with it, but i am not here to be controversial.

so please don't take any of this personally. i'm not calling anybody stupid or foolish, but neither am i a monster for stating what i believe to be true.

it's just i've looked behind the curtain for the man working the levers, and there's no one at the controls.
Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: Siz on January 04, 2020, 01:41:55 AM
Quote from: billy rubin on January 03, 2020, 10:21:54 PM
look folks, this is a difficult subject that lots of people don't like to think about, because it makes them have to defend things that they often aren't prepared to defend. if they think a little longer, then the world inevitably looks like a cruel and painful place.

it is.

i've long ago made my peace with it, but i am not here to be controversial.

so please don't take any of this personally. i'm not calling anybody stupid or foolish, but neither am i a monster for stating what i believe to be true.

it's just i've looked behind the curtain for the man working the levers, and there's no one at the controls.
Difficult for you, evidently (though not sure why, as a self-declared nihilist...???)
It's all pretty mundane and straightforward from where I'm sitting, Maybe I'm doing nihilism all wrong?! ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on January 04, 2020, 02:07:47 AM
Quote from: billy rubin on January 03, 2020, 10:16:46 PM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on January 03, 2020, 08:39:39 PM
Generally, lying ain't good, but I can think of examples where it would be good. Which means that "don't lie" is not a fundamental principle - there is something above it that determines its morality in a given instance.  For example, I would willingly lie to a psychopath or Nazi to protect someone I loved, or even a group of people who needed to remain hidden.  It appears that the governing principle is something in the order of "do that which promotes life and well-being" or, as Siz says, the Golden Rule.

you've touched on the hardest moral question about lying. the jew in the closet.

i don't have an answer.

but ipromnoting life and well-being is only a "fundamental principle" in your particulr system, bruce. genghiz khan might have described his moral system differently.

but didn't you mention elsewhere that you are a christian? if you are, then you have a logical right to escape the moral dilemma that traps non-theists. if there is a creator god that determines the nature of right and wrong, then all human beings share in being subject to it, period end. you mentioned it explicitly just above, when you referred to a higher frame of reference. that is absolutely logically valid, although as a non-theist i would argue whether or not it is sound.

non-theists don't have that over-arching authority. all we have is moral relativism and situational ethics.

Yes, Genghis Khan would choose a different morality. So, for the non-theist, is there no basis for morality?  Why can't we all just agree that a morality that preserves life is better for the vast, vast majority of us, and dispense with the relatively minor disagreements?
Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: billy rubin on January 04, 2020, 05:00:15 AM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on January 04, 2020, 02:07:47 AM
Quote from: billy rubin on January 03, 2020, 10:16:46 PM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on January 03, 2020, 08:39:39 PM
Generally, lying ain't good, but I can think of examples where it would be good. Which means that "don't lie" is not a fundamental principle - there is something above it that determines its morality in a given instance.  For example, I would willingly lie to a psychopath or Nazi to protect someone I loved, or even a group of people who needed to remain hidden.  It appears that the governing principle is something in the order of "do that which promotes life and well-being" or, as Siz says, the Golden Rule.

you've touched on the hardest moral question about lying. the jew in the closet.

i don't have an answer.

but ipromnoting life and well-being is only a "fundamental principle" in your particulr system, bruce. genghiz khan might have described his moral system differently.

but didn't you mention elsewhere that you are a christian? if you are, then you have a logical right to escape the moral dilemma that traps non-theists. if there is a creator god that determines the nature of right and wrong, then all human beings share in being subject to it, period end. you mentioned it explicitly just above, when you referred to a higher frame of reference. that is absolutely logically valid, although as a non-theist i would argue whether or not it is sound.

non-theists don't have that over-arching authority. all we have is moral relativism and situational ethics.

Yes, Genghis Khan would choose a different morality. So, for the non-theist, is there no basis for morality?  Why can't we all just agree that a morality that preserves life is better for the vast, vast majority of us, and dispense with the relatively minor disagreements?

thats what people do.

lots easier that way.

Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: Bad Penny II on January 04, 2020, 05:43:59 AM
Quote from: Siz on January 04, 2020, 01:41:55 AM
Quote from: billy rubin on January 03, 2020, 10:21:54 PM
look folks, this is a difficult subject that lots of people don't like to think about, because it makes them have to defend things that they often aren't prepared to defend. if they think a little longer, then the world inevitably looks like a cruel and painful place.

it is.

i've long ago made my peace with it, but i am not here to be controversial.

so please don't take any of this personally. i'm not calling anybody stupid or foolish, but neither am i a monster for stating what i believe to be true.

it's just i've looked behind the curtain for the man working the levers, and there's no one at the controls.
Difficult for you, evidently (though not sure why, as a self-declared nihilist...???)
It's all pretty mundane and straightforward from where I'm sitting, Maybe I'm doing nihilism all wrong?! ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I find all this "it's not real stuff" weird, and weird can't be allowed to exist without an explanation, so I'll make one up. 

Some beans were promised or were expecting eternal life, they thought they were special.  Then they find out they're not, so they over react and say the morality we make up isn't real, of course it is, it's in books.  Big fat books that'd hurt your toe if one fell on it.  Just because your love turned out to be a fake doesn't mean you have to swear off all made up stuff, just lower your expectations and you'll find some real made up stuff that suits you.
Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: Inertialmass on January 04, 2020, 06:22:37 AM
Well all y'all can laugh all ya want but I've learned me a valuable lesson here.

Next time I box myself into a philosophical corner replete with inconsistencies and outright contradictions I know now how to deftly escape:

"Just kidding folks. Nothing to see here.  I'm a nihilist!  Everything is meaningless anyway.  I never really meant what I said.  Nothing to see here..."


Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: billy rubin on January 04, 2020, 09:14:17 AM
Quote from: Siz on January 04, 2020, 01:41:55 AM

Difficult for you, evidently (though not sure why, as a self-declared nihilist...???)
It's all pretty mundane and straightforward from where I'm sitting, Maybe I'm doing nihilism all wrong?! ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

yes. if you re a nihilist, siz. you re doing it wrong.
Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: Siz on January 04, 2020, 09:24:56 AM
Quote from: Inertialmass on January 04, 2020, 06:22:37 AM
Well all y'all can laugh all ya want but I've learned me a valuable lesson here.

Next time I box myself into a philosophical corner replete with inconsistencies and outright contradictions I know now how to deftly escape:

"Just kidding folks. Nothing to see here.  I'm a nihilist!  Everything is meaningless anyway.  I never really meant what I said.  Nothing to see here..."
'cept on this occasion, the introduction of nihilism actually muddied the waters beyond reason.

I would have accepted the argument that a personally-constructed moral framework led to a truth-telling compulsion. Can't really argue with that (other than, perhaps, a foray into critical thinking). Nihilism, in this case, is a red herring that is neither applicable or true to our morally tortured Bizzy.
Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: billy rubin on January 04, 2020, 10:47:40 AM
Quote from: Bad Penny II on January 04, 2020, 05:43:59 AM
Quote from: Siz on January 04, 2020, 01:41:55 AM
Quote from: billy rubin on January 03, 2020, 10:21:54 PM
look folks, this is a difficult subject that lots of people don't like to think about, because it makes them have to defend things that they often aren't prepared to defend. if they think a little longer, then the world inevitably looks like a cruel and painful place.

it is.

i've long ago made my peace with it, but i am not here to be controversial.

so please don't take any of this personally. i'm not calling anybody stupid or foolish, but neither am i a monster for stating what i believe to be true.

it's just i've looked behind the curtain for the man working the levers, and there's no one at the controls.
Difficult for you, evidently (though not sure why, as a self-declared nihilist...???)
It's all pretty mundane and straightforward from where I'm sitting, Maybe I'm doing nihilism all wrong?! ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I find all this "it's not real stuff" weird, and weird can't be allowed to exist without an explanation, so I'll make one up. 

Some beans were promised or were expecting eternal life, they thought they were special.  Then they find out they're not, so they over react and say the morality we make up isn't real, of course it is, it's in books.  Big fat books that'd hurt your toe if one fell on it.  Just because your love turned out to be a fake doesn't mean you have to swear off all made up stuff, just lower your expectations and you'll find some real made up stuff that suits you.

who zaid anything wasnt real, penny?

my beliefs and behavior exist. they are Quite real. i just said they were meaninglezz. if i put on a coat on a warm day just because i feel like it, am i less real because im not naked?

meaninglezzness is quite real. doesnt upset me any, but it apparently bothers other people.
Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: Bad Penny II on January 04, 2020, 12:04:39 PM
Quote from: billy rubin on January 04, 2020, 10:47:40 AM

who zaid anything wasnt real, penny?

my beliefs and behavior exist. they are Quite real. i just said they were meaninglezz. if i put on a coat on a warm day just because i feel like it, am i less real because im not naked?

meaninglezzness is quite real. doesnt upset me any, but it apparently bothers other people.

This guy did.

Quote from: billy rubin on January 03, 2020, 04:04:18 PM

but i do it anyway, and on good dayz it even feelz like it might be real. treating other people sith the same respect i would hope for myself is part of that.
Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: Siz on January 04, 2020, 12:21:41 PM
Quote from: billy rubin on January 04, 2020, 09:14:17 AM
Quote from: Siz on January 04, 2020, 01:41:55 AM

Difficult for you, evidently (though not sure why, as a self-declared nihilist...???)
It's all pretty mundane and straightforward from where I'm sitting, Maybe I'm doing nihilism all wrong?! ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

yes. if you re a nihilist, siz. you re doing it wrong.
Righto!

I don't even know why you introduced nihilism into this thread. It doesn't help the defense of your compulsion to tell the truth in the face of a person's suffering. The fact your compulsion exists obviates your nihilism - things DO have meaning for you. Evidently, very strong meaning for you to take such a rigid stance on lying.
Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: billy rubin on January 04, 2020, 12:26:22 PM
ah

i understand, penny.

yes. my beliefs are meaningless. my life is meaningless. the universe is meaningless. your values and life is equally withou purpose. so all our hopes, dreams, and beliefs are ultimately futile. in that sense, they are not real, although they certainly come with emotions, personal valuez, and a lifetime of inveztment.

if you have so.e transcendent knowledge of meaning in your life beyond the swirling moleculez that temporarily cluster together at your keyboard, then i am wrong.

so when i say that on good dayz my system of values seems almost real, i say that it appears to have meaning. so long as i dont think about it too much, or too carefully, that state holds. but not for very long.
Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: billy rubin on January 04, 2020, 12:27:30 PM
Quote from: Siz on January 04, 2020, 12:21:41 PM
Quote from: billy rubin on January 04, 2020, 09:14:17 AM
Quote from: Siz on January 04, 2020, 01:41:55 AM

Difficult for you, evidently (though not sure why, as a self-declared nihilist...???)
It's all pretty mundane and straightforward from where I'm sitting, Maybe I'm doing nihilism all wrong?! ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

yes. if you re a nihilist, siz. you re doing it wrong.
Righto!

I don't even know why you introduced nihilism into this thread. It doesn't help the defense of your compulsion to tell the truth in the face of a person's suffering. The fact your compulsion exists obviates your nihilism - things DO have meaning for you. Evidently, very strong meaning for you to take such a rigid stance on lying.

siz, if you dont like the anzwerz, dont azk the questions.
Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: Bad Penny II on January 04, 2020, 12:29:44 PM
I believe in Darwin's day there was some opposition to the idea that apes are our kin.
NO! NO! We're more than them!
It didn't bother some, our intellectual forebears perhaps.
Apes have a way of getting on that is real.
Ook.
Ook brother, some do over think it.
Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: Siz on January 04, 2020, 12:34:35 PM
Quote from: billy rubin on January 04, 2020, 12:27:30 PM
Quote from: Siz on January 04, 2020, 12:21:41 PM
Quote from: billy rubin on January 04, 2020, 09:14:17 AM
Quote from: Siz on January 04, 2020, 01:41:55 AM

Difficult for you, evidently (though not sure why, as a self-declared nihilist...???)
It's all pretty mundane and straightforward from where I'm sitting, Maybe I'm doing nihilism all wrong?! ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

yes. if you re a nihilist, siz. you re doing it wrong.
Righto!

I don't even know why you introduced nihilism into this thread. It doesn't help the defense of your compulsion to tell the truth in the face of a person's suffering. The fact your compulsion exists obviates your nihilism - things DO have meaning for you. Evidently, very strong meaning for you to take such a rigid stance on lying.

siz, if you dont like the anzwerz, dont azk the questions.
Indeed! Guess I've learned my lesson, then. Carry on.
Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: Bad Penny II on January 04, 2020, 12:55:26 PM
Quote from: billy rubin on January 04, 2020, 12:26:22 PM
ah

i understand, penny.

yes. my beliefs are meaningless. my life is meaningless. the universe is meaningless. your values and life is equally withou purpose. so all our hopes, dreams, and beliefs are ultimately futile. in that sense, they are not real, although they certainly come with emotions, personal valuez, and a lifetime of inveztment.

if you have so.e transcendent knowledge of meaning in your life beyond the swirling moleculez that temporarily cluster together at your keyboard, then i am wrong.

so when i say that on good dayz my system of values seems almost real, i say that it appears to have meaning. so long as i dont think about it too much, or too carefully, that state holds. but not for very long.

Thanks Holden but we all already knew that.
We're not forever, nothing is.
I met a girl and we bonded.
I was there when our daughters were born,
and all that happened tween then and now.
Forever is a word for fairy stories
I'll die, my love will die our children will die
But before we do we will live,
it's all the meaning we animals need.
Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: xSilverPhinx on January 04, 2020, 01:30:25 PM
Quote from: billy rubin on January 03, 2020, 03:11:32 PM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on January 03, 2020, 02:46:08 PM
Pardon my asking, billy rubin, but did you ever have to care for someone with severe dementia or have someone close to you afflicted with such a disease?

my grandfather spent his lazt years asking the woman in bed with him if she waz hiz wife. she explained to him each time that she had been his wife for fifty years. i have 25 percent of his chromosomez and expect to have a one in four chance of endi g up the same way.  i have never had to care for anyone personally and would find dealing with truth and honezty in the relationship as the most important mark of compassion and respect i can imagine.

Quote
You've compared lying to a dementia patient to a person receiving a fatal diagnosis (I'm assuming of a sound mind) more than once, and treat them the same, but they are not the same, for moral and practical reasons.

tbey are exactly the zame. both acts dehumanize another person.

Quote
Another difficult scenario: would you tell a very young child that their parents will one day be dead/gone forever? I can't think of anything a young one could hear that would be more distressful and could have lasting emotional implications in some children. Would you put them through that before they are a little older and more mature so you could feel better about yourself because you didn't withhold the truth? Serious question.

i have never lied to a child, which i regard az an act of ultimate betrayal of care and rezponsibility.  i have five children, and have never lied to tbem at any time, on any subject. two are now adults, and all are apparently normal.

silver, would you betray tbe trust of a child in order to go home and feel better about yourself, knowing that forcing the child to grow up in a lie waz lezz important than you getting a goox nights sleep by avoiding a very difficult part of genuine care and nurture?

this is abzolutely not an easy question, and theres no way being honezt is an eazy tbing. deception is always easy, but in my mibd it is alwayz wrong. i think the answer when confronted with tbe dilemma is to look for a better way.

There's a lot more that goes into developing Alzheimer's or not than simply the genes you carry, so it's not 25% if you have a grandfather afflicted with the disease. ;) But anyway...

You see, that's the thing. You talk of genuine care and nurture, I just don't see that happening by telling, say, a three year old that their parents are one day going to be gone forever. There's a time and level of maturity for receiving that information, and I strongly feel that at three years old is not that time. I just can't tell such a child something that would cause them so much distress just because I want to uphold my principles. It's not about looking inward at my own feelings of integrity and moral consistency...it's about looking outward, at the other.

My parents lied to me about many things when I was growing up and I turned out alright in the sense that I don't harbor any ill feelings towards them for protecting me from the truth until I was older, or feeding wild stories into my blossoming imagination. If anything I can say it made me think more critically. Even though they did misrepresent the truth sometimes, my default is still to believe what they tell me as true, there are no lingering trust issues because of those lies.

Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: xSilverPhinx on January 04, 2020, 01:34:19 PM
Um...yeah...like Siz I don't know where you're going with the nihilism thing or what you want to prove. Do you mean meaningless=ultimately inconsequential? :notsure:
Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: billy rubin on January 04, 2020, 03:55:13 PM
well, silver, we all raise our kids by trying to transfer the things we feel important. in my own caze, i scaled discuzzionz of zubjectz to the age level of my kids when the discussion took place. i didnt explain hormones to  a three year old asking where he came from, for instance. but if he asked, he got an anatomically correct version of the ztory with az much detail az he could understand.

my own kids are quite comfortable with death. i dont recall the subject of their own or their parents ever coming up, but similar discussionz certainly took place. perhapz that might make some family relationzhipz anxious, but in my own family my children grew up with complete trust tbat they were never lied to, and a lack of fear  of thi gs like death becauze nothing was hidden from them. tbeyve been going to and speaking on their own in funeralz since they were under six years old.

my kids have turned out great. they have alwayz been secure in the knowlsdge that tbere is someone who they can trust completely, and it zhows in tbe frank and honest ways that they deal with each other and with other people.

i wouldnt worry about nihilism. its a separate discussion. siz asserted that my moral syztem waz meaninglesz, and i pointed out that hiz own waz no different. he's still procezsing that.
Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: Bad Penny II on January 04, 2020, 04:19:25 PM
Quote from: billy rubin on January 04, 2020, 03:55:13 PM
my kids have turned out great. they have alwayz been secure in the knowlsdge that tbere is someone who they can trust completely, and it zhows in tbe frank and honest ways that they deal with each other and with other people.

i wouldnt worry about nihilism. its a separate discussion. siz asserted that my moral syztem waz meaninglesz, and i pointed out that hiz own waz no different. he's still procezsing that.

I hope you're not being as self serving in your assessment of your kids as in your measure of Siz.
Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: Siz on January 04, 2020, 04:26:12 PM
Quote from: billy rubin on January 04, 2020, 03:55:13 PM
well, silver, we all raise our kids by trying to transfer the things we feel important. in my own caze, i scaled discuzzionz of zubjectz to the age level of my kids when the discussion took place. i didnt explain hormones to  a three year old asking where he came from, for instance. but if he asked, he got an anatomically correct version of the ztory with az much detail az he could understand.

my own kids are quite comfortable with death. i dont recall the subject of their own or their parents ever coming up, but similar discussionz certainly took place. perhapz that might make some family relationzhipz anxious, but in my own family my children grew up with complete trust tbat they were never lied to, and a lack of fear  of thi gs like death becauze nothing was hidden from them. tbeyve been going to and speaking on their own in funeralz since they were under six years old.

my kids have turned out great. they have alwayz been secure in the knowlsdge that tbere is someone who they can trust completely, and it zhows in tbe frank and honest ways that they deal with each other and with other people.

i wouldnt worry about nihilism. its a separate discussion. siz asserted that my moral syztem waz meaninglesz, and i pointed out that hiz own waz no different. he's still procezsing that.
Yep, still processing my moral fortitude. That's me!
Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: billy rubin on January 04, 2020, 05:44:18 PM
Quote from: Bad Penny II on January 04, 2020, 04:19:25 PM
Quote from: billy rubin on January 04, 2020, 03:55:13 PM
my kids have turned out great. they have alwayz been secure in the knowlsdge that tbere is someone who they can trust completely, and it zhows in tbe frank and honest ways that they deal with each other and with other people.

i wouldnt worry about nihilism. its a separate discussion. siz asserted that my moral syztem waz meaninglesz, and i pointed out that hiz own waz no different. he's still procezsing that.

I hope you're not being as self serving in your assessment of your kids as in your measure of Siz.

i stand by what i said. siz can speak for himself.
Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: Siz on January 04, 2020, 06:08:02 PM
Quote from: billy rubin on January 04, 2020, 05:44:18 PM
Quote from: Bad Penny II on January 04, 2020, 04:19:25 PM
Quote from: billy rubin on January 04, 2020, 03:55:13 PM
my kids have turned out great. they have alwayz been secure in the knowlsdge that tbere is someone who they can trust completely, and it zhows in tbe frank and honest ways that they deal with each other and with other people.

i wouldnt worry about nihilism. its a separate discussion. siz asserted that my moral syztem waz meaninglesz, and i pointed out that hiz own waz no different. he's still procezsing that.

I hope you're not being as self serving in your assessment of your kids as in your measure of Siz.

i stand by what i said. siz can speak for himself.
...if he was disposed to defend a rather bent misrepresentation.

Ironic, really, given the title of the thread....
Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: billy rubin on January 04, 2020, 07:01:25 PM
well, siz, you refused to explain why your moral syztem was more meaningful than mine when i asked you.

that invitation still stands.

if you cant, or wont, then i dont see that you have any reason to complain about misreprezentation.

go for it. siz. my univerze has no meaning, but yours does.

tell us why.

and if i have  misrepresented you zomewhere, i apologize. but unless you explain yourself its likely to happen again.
Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: Siz on January 04, 2020, 07:25:57 PM
Quote from: billy rubin on January 04, 2020, 07:01:25 PM
well, siz, you refused to explain why your moral syztem was more meaningful than mine when i asked you.

that invitation still stands.

if you cant, or wont, then i dont see that you have any reason to complain about misreprezentation.

go for it. siz. my univerze has no meaning, but yours does.

tell us why.

and if i have  misrepresented you zomewhere, i apologize. but unless you explain yourself its likely to happen again.

I'm an amoralist. A moral nihilist, if you will. Not sure where you got the idea that I felt I held moral superiority... Have you read my signature?
You may proudly call yourself unimportant nonsense.
Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: billy rubin on January 04, 2020, 07:34:22 PM
if thats true, siz, then the criticisms you levelled at me earlier were falze.

"nasty piece of work. " i think waz one?

where do you get the authority to call anyone or anything "nasty?"

if youre merely exprezsing a personal preference. then of course you have every right to do so.

but personally. i prefer the boyzenberry over any ordinary jam.




Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: Siz on January 04, 2020, 10:46:50 PM
Quote from: billy rubin on January 04, 2020, 07:34:22 PM
if thats true, siz, then the criticisms you levelled at me earlier were falze.

"nasty piece of work. " i think waz one?

where do you get the authority to call anyone or anything "nasty?"

if youre merely exprezsing a personal preference. then of course you have every right to do so.

but personally. i prefer the boyzenberry over any ordinary jam.
The Golden Rule determines 'nasty' in my mind... when it suits me.

Thick-cut orange marmalade for me.
Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: Recusant on January 04, 2020, 11:40:34 PM
Since meaning is something created by sentient beings (having no independent existence as far as we can tell) then things that have meaning to us have as much meaning as anything in the universe. Our lives have meaning. Our beliefs have meaning, etc.

Invoking the fact that as far as we know meaning doesn't exist independently of us does not change that. Meaningfulness exists as a (human) thing, regardless of whether the universe as a whole "ultimately" has meaning, or whether there are any other sentient beings that have the concept of meaning. The "ultimate" Big Picture is largely irrelevant in this context, and does not in any way detract from meaningfulness.
Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on January 05, 2020, 01:32:51 AM
Yeah, Betelgeuse is about to go supernova, but that is meaningless and irrelevant to me.  On the other hand, the fact that I'm drinking vodka right now is extremely important.
Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: billy rubin on January 05, 2020, 09:07:28 AM
mezcal for me
Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: Recusant on January 06, 2020, 08:27:58 PM
Quote from: Siz on January 03, 2020, 04:39:06 PM
Quote from: billy rubin on January 03, 2020, 04:04:18 PM
there iz no such tbing as truth, or integrity either, siz, in the end. no medals, no self-satizfaction. no right, no wrong, no valid moral compass. no good, no evil.

nothing you or i do can change that.

the absurdity of the situation is that i chooze to live as if there were meaning. so an illusion of integrity, of treating people with truth, respect, and compazsion, is in the end a suit of clothes that i wear. it lets me fit in, even tbough i know it can be taken off, and many people do.

but i do it anyway, and on good dayz it even feelz like it might be real. treating other people as if tbey deserve rezpect is part of that.
So, you don't think any of it has any meaning, yet you still choose to inflict unnecessary grief on people for the sake of your emperors new clothes? You're a nasty piece of work, Bizzy.

You're well aware of the civility rule which has been a part of HAF since its inception. The staff of this site appreciate lively discussion while supporting the ethos which makes this place what it is (yeah, I know, describing it as a rather quiet backwater is aggrandizement, but there is life here and it has endured). As a po-faced auntie might say as she dishes up a large bowl of her revolting milk pudding, "You knew what you were going to get when you came to this house."

In view of the above, it looks like the only justification for a derogatory comment regarding a fellow member's character, particularly in the context of dick-waving over who's more of/really a nihilist, is self gratification. It would be appreciated if you find other ways to achieve that here.
Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: Davin on January 06, 2020, 09:14:28 PM
This is an old thread, like a year and a half dead. I'll put in my opinion though.

Quote from: Bad Penny II on May 03, 2018, 02:00:18 PM
The deliberate act of deviating from the truth.
That'll do as a definition, bullshitting is lying.
I also like the definition of "speaking with the intent to deceive." But I can live with what you're using.

Quote from: Bad Penny II
I don't accept the absolute that lying should never be done.
I cite the dementia patient who asks "when will my wife be here?"
Carer says later, even though the wife's long dead.
If the carer said she was dead, dementia guy'd be upset for hours.
Wouldn't know why after a while but still would be.
Same thing day after day until he died or the rot removed the memory.
But dementia guy isn't full faculty, this example doesn't satisfy for normal human interaction.
Fair point Green Me, so lying to children... [beard stroking smiley]
This is something I've dealt with personally with my grandfather on my mother's side and my great grandmother on my father's and his mother's side.

They do feel the emotions caused by a conversation for a time after they forget the part of the conversation that upset them. There is not much point in continually upsetting them, and it's bad for their health, to constantly be stressed out and feeling the loss of a loved one over and over again. That's a lot of harm to them. It's fine to not tell them the truth.

Lying to children, like everything else, depends on the lie and the effects of those lies.

My parents didn't lie to me about Santa Claus. I don't think that lying about Santa is that big of a deal, and actually can be used as a good learning experience for young skeptics. Not being lied to about Santa, in my opinion, didn't cause much harm or benefit. I think either way you go on this kind of lie to children is fine. Because when the jig is up, the parents concede the lie.

Lying to children about god however, I think that causes some harm. When parents speak with certainty about things they cannot be certain about does harm. And when the children question them and the jig is up, and the parents continue to lie to them, then I think that's much worse. It demonstrates to children that critical thinking and avoiding fallacious logic are not important things in life and that unquestioning faith is the way to go.

Jokes I think are also generally good lies as long as everyone is in on the joke at the end and no real harm is done.

Quote from: Bad Penny II
I avoid lying, I don't like doing it and it is a truism that it complicates things.

I don't often avoid lying. There are a lot of lies I tell that are perfectly fine. Some stranger asking "how are you?" is not genuinely interested in how I'm actually doing, so I simply say, "good, and you?" no matter how I'm doing. I think the intent behind both statements is important here and in general with determining if a lie is good, bad, neutral or anywhere in between.

Quote from: Bad Penny II
When someone lies to you, what do you think of the person?
How does it effect future interaction?
Depends on the lie. Like the above example, I don't give any shits. If it's something more serious, then my judgment would be more extreme. Like anything else, it depends on the harm and benefits of the intent and results.

Quote from: Bad Penny II
Anyway the subject is lying and Bill and Monica are welcome.
The question was, "are you having an affair with that woman?"

If the question was, "did you have an affair with that woman?" then I'd agree that he was lying, but since it wasn't, he was merely being sneakily honest.

That's where the whole, "it depends on what your definition of "is" is." came from. It's not a blunder. Is he having an affair? Not at the time the question was asked, the affair ended a long time before the question was asked. So if your definition of "is" is like everyone else's, then he was telling the truth, but if your definition of "is" is something like "currently and previously," then that would be something else.

And that wasn't even what the investigation was about, it was the GOP grasping at anything they could find.
Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: Old Seer on January 10, 2020, 12:33:18 AM
Lying is natural and a part of nature. It's part of what makes the world of people work the way it does. Without it there cannot be a successful economy. Lying originates from the animal mentality, and when coupled to the cognitive process becomes understood and useful. In the animal world lying is a must for survival. Predators rely on it to fool their prey, for example, the leopard has spots to help conceal it from it's intents. The camouflage effect says---I'm not here which is a lie. The stealth the leopard uses is also a lie to deceive the target.  The universe has it's opposites---if there is truth then there must also be the lie. Without truth there can be no lie. Civilizations unwittingly create a system of lies in order to function. Without the lie-- there can be no civilization. Civilizations are founded on a predator (capitalism)premise, and a predator "must" depend on lying to survive. IE. There is truth in business, but at the same time how much more does business depend on the lie. Truth mixed with a lie is still a lie, because that's why the lie would be present, to produce the power of the lie over that part which is true, otherwise there's no sense in including the lie. Blah Blah and etc.
Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: billy rubin on January 11, 2020, 07:48:03 PM
Quote from: Old Seer on January 10, 2020, 12:33:18 AM
Lying is natural and a part of nature.

deception is certainly natural.

but is natural "good?"

that is, should we use what is natural as a measure of what we should pursue?
Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: Davin on January 13, 2020, 01:46:57 PM
Quote from: billy rubin on January 11, 2020, 07:48:03 PM
Quote from: Old Seer on January 10, 2020, 12:33:18 AM
Lying is natural and a part of nature.

deception is certainly natural.

but is natural "good?"

that is, should we use what is natural as a measure of what we should pursue?
I mean, if you read more than the first sentence, you'd have a better idea about Old Seer's position. You see them further define things and would answer your question because more qualifications exist further on, implying that one thing (like what is natural) is not enough of a measure for what is good and what is bad.
Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: billy rubin on January 13, 2020, 08:55:03 PM
i didn't catch that i.n hiz post, davin.

where do you see thiz?

Quote,. . . implying that one thing (like what is natural) is not enough of a measure for what is good and what is bad
Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: Davin on January 14, 2020, 01:58:41 PM
Quote from: billy rubin on January 13, 2020, 08:55:03 PM
i didn't catch that i.n hiz post, davin.

where do you see thiz?

Quote,. . . implying that one thing (like what is natural) is not enough of a measure for what is good and what is bad
If you look at the whole sentence, that answers your question.

QuoteYou see them further define things and would answer your question because more qualifications exist further on, implying that one thing (like what is natural) is not enough of a measure for what is good and what is bad.
Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: billy rubin on January 14, 2020, 02:13:44 PM
okay.

do you think that what is natural is also what is good?
Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: Davin on January 14, 2020, 04:46:10 PM
Quote from: billy rubin on January 14, 2020, 02:13:44 PM
okay.

do you think that what is natural is also what is good?
Odd wording, but Yes. I also think that what is natural is also what is bad. And also that what is natural is also what is is neutral. And many levels in between. I wouldn't use it as a sole justification for anything. But then that's why we write in multiple sentences to express what we mean. Which is also why taking one justification out of a list of them and focusing on it is kind of pointless.
Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: billy rubin on January 14, 2020, 05:09:39 PM
Quote from: Davin on January 14, 2020, 04:46:10 PM
Quote from: billy rubin on January 14, 2020, 02:13:44 PM
okay.

do you think that what is natural is also what is good?
Odd wording, but Yes. I also think that what is natural is also what is bad. And also that what is natural is also what is is neutral. And many levels in between. I wouldn't use it as a sole justification for anything. But then that's why we write in multiple sentences to express what we mean. Which is also why taking one justification out of a list of them and focusing on it is kind of pointless.

conversation is often pointless, davin. maybe with me more than most people.

what do you consider the defining differences between natural and unnatural?
Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: Davin on January 14, 2020, 06:08:48 PM
Quote from: billy rubin on January 14, 2020, 05:09:39 PM
Quote from: Davin on January 14, 2020, 04:46:10 PM
Quote from: billy rubin on January 14, 2020, 02:13:44 PM
okay.

do you think that what is natural is also what is good?
Odd wording, but Yes. I also think that what is natural is also what is bad. And also that what is natural is also what is is neutral. And many levels in between. I wouldn't use it as a sole justification for anything. But then that's why we write in multiple sentences to express what we mean. Which is also why taking one justification out of a list of them and focusing on it is kind of pointless.

conversation is often pointless, davin. maybe with me more than most people.

what do you consider the defining differences between natural and unnatural?
I'm usually happy with the definitions of the words. Where are you trying to go with this? It seems like you're trying to pull the conversation a certain way and don't like the way I'm responding. So why not just skip the little games and get to your point?
Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: billy rubin on January 14, 2020, 07:12:26 PM
Quote from: Davin on January 14, 2020, 06:08:48 PM
I'm usually happy with the definitions of the words. Where are you trying to go with this? It seems like you're trying to pull the conversation a certain way and don't like the way I'm responding. So why not just skip the little games and get to your point?

i think you read too much into what i say that isn't there, davin.

but not to worry. i was just checking.
Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: Old Seer on January 16, 2020, 02:21:34 AM
Quote from: billy rubin on January 11, 2020, 07:48:03 PM
Quote from: Old Seer on January 10, 2020, 12:33:18 AM
Lying is natural and a part of nature.

deception is certainly natural.

but is natural "good?"

that is, should we use what is natural as a measure of what we should pursue?
That's why ancient people's divided the human mind from the animal mind. So they would know the difference where-from harm originates. But, in civilization the animal mind is regulated to stay within certain bounds of behavior. This civil mindedness is referred to as human, but the ancients would dispute that claim,as human to them is a mental state (presence) devoid of the animal mind. While no one can be a person without the animal mentality it was put aside and not used in relationships with others. One cannot have a human mentality without it's opposite, just as there cannot be evil without good.

Civilization cannot create a human because "human" comes automatically when a person is formed within the brain. Along with human also comes the other. What confuses people is thinking intelligence is human, but not so. Intelligence is a neutral and can be applied to either of the the sets of characteristics. If people have an animal mental state , which we all have, then along with the forming of the person is also one's natural ability to lie. It has to be, otherwise one could not be a person, and one of the characteristics of person is---predator. 

Civilization creates the "artificial person". IOW- a person that is made according to predetermined mandates to belong to a specific society of rules and regulations to control behavior. In the natural state one is not under civilization remaining natural man as nature created the person to be. Add intelligence and one can understand the harmful effects one can have on others so one becomes self-regulated and not under the authority of any other. 

So, the artificial man needs to be a liar as needed to exist in a controlled society and prosper within it, because the first lie of the predator is that one is human, as all lies come after that.  The predator says, I'm not a predator just as the spots on the leopard say, I'm not here. The truth is demanded to be told to authority so they remain the power over, and one can lie to anyone else.

(See Black's Law Book- natural man/person, or artificial man)
Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: billy rubin on January 16, 2020, 12:44:59 PM
so, is natural "good?"

that is, should we use what is natural as a measure of what we should pursue?
Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: Davin on January 16, 2020, 01:54:31 PM
Quote from: billy rubin on January 16, 2020, 12:44:59 PM
so, is natural "good?"

that is, should we use what is natural as a measure of what we should pursue?
You've asked this question many times now. I don't think that anyone is going to answer the question the way you want them to, so maybe just get to whatever point you're trying to get to.
Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: Bad Penny II on January 16, 2020, 02:39:29 PM
Quote from: billy rubin on January 16, 2020, 12:44:59 PM
so, is natural "good?"

that is, should we use what is natural as a measure of what we should pursue?

Ye, why not?
Water is better than coke but antibiotics are better than bleeding.
Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: billy rubin on January 16, 2020, 03:57:54 PM
Quote from: Bad Penny II on January 16, 2020, 02:39:29 PM
Quote from: billy rubin on January 16, 2020, 12:44:59 PM
so, is natural "good?"

that is, should we use what is natural as a measure of what we should pursue?

Ye, why not?
Water is better than coke but antibiotics are better than bleeding.

i dunno.

infanticide is natural. war is natural. killing off my rivals for mates and territory is natural.

i dont use natural az a meazure.

Quote from: Old Seer on January 10, 2020, 12:33:18 AM
Lying is natural and a part of nature.

personally i depart from what is natural all the time. eyeglasses, clothing, and i cook my food.

old seer made a comment i was curious about.
Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: Old Seer on January 16, 2020, 04:08:16 PM
Quote from: billy rubin on January 16, 2020, 12:44:59 PM
so, is natural "good?"

that is, should we use what is natural as a measure of what we should pursue?
Nature works both ways. Nature cannot be right or wrong, it only can be good or evil. But good and evil are only relative to people as nature cannot be be good or evil to itself. Good and evil can only be reckoned as to what help or harm happens to what can comprehend the help or harm. Without people or bioforms that reason(cognitive beings) there can't be good and evil. Before cogitation the universe didn't contain good or evil, and good and evil can only come about when there is a being to comprehend it. So, before people there was no good or evil. Nature cannot be good or evil by destroying a mountain it created, as a mountain cannot have a mental condition of understanding. Good and evil are only relative to something/one that can understand it. Good and evil can only be a reference that is of people to harm. Good and evil then, is only a reference to a reasoning being and that which causes the harm to the one that reasons.
Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: Davin on January 16, 2020, 07:02:49 PM
Quote from: billy rubin on January 16, 2020, 03:57:54 PM
Quote from: Bad Penny II on January 16, 2020, 02:39:29 PM
Quote from: billy rubin on January 16, 2020, 12:44:59 PM
so, is natural "good?"

that is, should we use what is natural as a measure of what we should pursue?

Ye, why not?
Water is better than coke but antibiotics are better than bleeding.

i dunno.

infanticide is natural. war is natural. killing off my rivals for mates and territory is natural.

i dont use natural az a meazure.
Was that so difficult? I mean the way you did it was difficult, but if you skipped to this in the first place it would have been much easier.

If you treat all your measures with an equal amount of scrutiny, you'll likely have to either drop all of them or realize that a single measure in itself it not enough for anything useful.

Quote from: billy rubin
Quote from: Old Seer on January 10, 2020, 12:33:18 AM
Lying is natural and a part of nature.

personally i depart from what is natural all the time. eyeglasses, clothing, and i cook my food.

old seer made a comment i was curious about.
Do you breath, drink, and eat or are those natural things you also avoid?
Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: billy rubin on January 16, 2020, 07:45:58 PM
Quote from: Old Seer on January 16, 2020, 04:08:16 PM
Nature works both ways. Nature cannot be right or wrong, it only can be good or evil. But good and evil are only relative to people as nature cannot be be good or evil to itself. . Good and evil can only be reckoned as to what help or harm happens to what can comprehend the help or harm. Without people or bioforms that reason(cognitive beings) there can't be good and evil. Before cogitation the universe didn't contain good or evil, and good and evil can only come about when there is a being to comprehend it. So, before people there was no good or evil. Nature cannot be good or evil by destroying a mountain it created, as a mountain cannot have a mental condition of understanding. Good and evil are only relative to something/one that can understand it. Good and evil can only be a reference that is of people to harm. Good and evil then, is only a reference to a reasoning being and that which causes the harm to the one that reasons.

let me see whether i understand you, seer.

i think that you are asserting that good and evil exist only with respect to sentient beings, and not between inanimate entities. but then you say this:

--Good and evil can only be reckoned as to what help or harm happens to what can comprehend the help or harm.

--Good and evil then, is only a reference to a reasoning being and that which causes the harm to the one that reasons.


^^^this seems to imply that for an act to be evil, it must be comprehended as such by the affected entity, rather than by the agent. so if i cause pain to a non-reasoning animal simply for the sake of the cruelty, is this a relationship that cannot involve evil?

or do you mean something else?
Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: billy rubin on January 16, 2020, 07:52:36 PM
Quote from: Davin on January 16, 2020, 07:02:49 PM

If you treat all your measures with an equal amount of scrutiny, you'll likely have to either drop all of them or realize that a single measure in itself it not enough for anything useful.

i have dropped all of them, davin. i don't believe in morality. but what other people believe is interesting to me.

Quote from: davin
Do you breath, drink, and eat or are those natural things you also avoid?

most people don't consider those things to involve moral questions.

what is your reason for bringing them up?
Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: Old Seer on January 16, 2020, 09:59:16 PM
Quote from: billy rubin on January 16, 2020, 07:45:58 PM
Quote from: Old Seer on January 16, 2020, 04:08:16 PM
Nature works both ways. Nature cannot be right or wrong, it only can be good or evil. But good and evil are only relative to people as nature cannot be be good or evil to itself. . Good and evil can only be reckoned as to what help or harm happens to what can comprehend the help or harm. Without people or bioforms that reason(cognitive beings) there can't be good and evil. Before cogitation the universe didn't contain good or evil, and good and evil can only come about when there is a being to comprehend it. So, before people there was no good or evil. Nature cannot be good or evil by destroying a mountain it created, as a mountain cannot have a mental condition of understanding. Good and evil are only relative to something/one that can understand it. Good and evil can only be a reference that is of people to harm. Good and evil then, is only a reference to a reasoning being and that which causes the harm to the one that reasons.

let me see whether i understand you, seer.

i think that you are asserting that good and evil exist only with respect to sentient beings, and not between inanimate entities. but then you say this:

--Good and evil can only be reckoned as to what help or harm happens to what can comprehend the help or harm.

--Good and evil then, is only a reference to a reasoning being and that which causes the harm to the one that reasons.


^^^this seems to imply that for an act to be evil, it must be comprehended as such by the affected entity, rather than by the agent. so if i cause pain to a non-reasoning animal simply for the sake of the cruelty, is this a relationship that cannot involve evil?

or do you mean something else?
The first example --the better word would be a person rather then "what". There has to be someone that can react to harm. A rock has no means to comprehend damages to itself as it has no means of comprehension. There-fore a rock cannot be aware of good and evil, so to the rock there can be no such thing as harm. Good and evil cannot exist in the universe until someone becomes present to experience it.
example 2- Harm must be comprehended in order for it to be an evil. Someone has to be a recipient of the harm and to realize damage from the harm. If no people or animate bio structures are present in the universe then their cannot be evil. Someone has to decide something is evil. IE- from experience you can avoid a rock that's rolling down the hill. The rock has no intent of harm but it is still an evil that will happen to you if you don't move out of the way.  It takes a being to comprehend the consequences of the harm and recognize the rock as a harm whether instinctively or reasoned.   Good and evil is a matter of "person" to recognize the harm, Without "person" in the universe there is no good and evil. Good and evil relates to harm for animate bio structures, with a cognitive means to recognize harm.
Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: billy rubin on January 16, 2020, 10:46:43 PM
so if i am an orderly in a hospital and beat sleeping people to death who never wake up, there is no evil, because they cannot realize their pain through reason or instinct? there would be no recognition, no comprehension, merely death. killing them in their sleep would not constitute an evil.

it seems to me that defining evil as only that which can be detected and recognized as such has some holes in it. how would we reconcile that?

unless it actually is not evil?
Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: Old Seer on January 17, 2020, 12:34:46 AM
Quote from: billy rubin on January 16, 2020, 10:46:43 PM
so if i am an orderly in a hospital and beat sleeping people to death who never wake up, there is no evil, because they cannot realize their pain through reason or instinct? there would be no recognition, no comprehension, merely death. killing them in their sleep would not constitute an evil.

it seems to me that defining evil as only that which can be detected and recognized as such has some holes in it. how would we reconcile that?

unless it actually is not evil?
I will agree that to kill an unconscious being may not be an evil as the victim isn't aware that evil is about to occur. But good and evil to beings that's intended (planned) is an intentional evil upon another, especially if the unconscious is to revive.  Today there is withdrawing life support from the brain dead which isn't considered doing an evil, BUT, good and evil have to do also with what is human and what isn't. Human is a good person while inhuman is an evil person. It's natural that good can come from evil and vice versa. There's the saying, no good deed goes unpunished. But that's not absolute. You help a fallen old lady trying to cross the street, so you help her up and proceed to finish your crossing and get hit by a passing car. The good you did delayed your crossing and put you in harm's way when had you crossed without help to the lady you wouldn't have been in the intersection. We all are under the same laws of nature as is the rock. A rock gets smashed by another larger rock and there's no evil. You get killed by a passing car and it's an evil---because it changed your life, but the rock had no life. That's the difference, you're not a rock. The circumstances are the changes to the rock are of no consequences. Your life is something you had so it's a subtraction. The subtraction (loss) is an evil because you had life and the rock did not. So, one cannot do evil to a rock. There is good and evil from nature, and there is good and evil in accordance with what we do or not do to others.
Be aware that the people you killed in the hospital may have many friends. They are capable of the same evils you are. (Wink :-) )
Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: billy rubin on January 17, 2020, 10:57:27 AM
interesting. your use of the term "evil" is similar to the american use of the legal term "assault." assault is defined as a threat of harm coupled to the ability to carry out the threat. the threat must be apparent to the one threatened. in contrast, "battery" is an actual co ntact.

so if i walk up to you and raize my fist intending to ztrike you, and cause you to fear for yoyr zafety, i have assaulted you. if i do the same thing while your back iz turned so that you are unaware, there iz no assault.

like wise. you seem to zay that if i carry out an act that is to your detriment. but you are unaware, it is not evil. evil can only occur if the recipient recognizes it.

what happens if i perform an act that you do not recognize as harmful until later? does the act begin as neutral and then change to evil at a subsequent time?

for example if i were to set fire to a structure, intending to kill you, but you were not inside and under no threat. later you discover that you are actually trapped close enough to be injured.  burning tbe structure would have no ultimate value of good or evil, but would be one or the other as the situation changed.
Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: Bad Penny II on January 17, 2020, 12:13:09 PM
Quote from: Old Seer on January 16, 2020, 04:08:16 PM
Nature works both ways. Nature cannot be right or wrong, it only can be good or evil. But good and evil are only relative to people as nature cannot be be good or evil to itself. Good and evil can only be reckoned as to what help or harm happens to what can comprehend the help or harm.
No, I don't think so, your neighbour asks you to look after her 1, 3 and 5 year old children while she goes to the shop. You say ye and proceed to blind all three with a bodkin. You've assaulted my sensibility some but it's not about what you've done to me, it's what I recognise in you and your actions.

Noun: evil
1. Morally objectionable behaviour
2. That which causes harm, destruction or misfortune
3. The quality of being morally wrong in principle or practice

Quote from: Old Seer on January 16, 2020, 04:08:16 PMBefore cogitation the universe didn't contain good or evil, and good and evil can only come about when there is a being to comprehend it. So, before people there was no good or evil.
I hope we're including other sentient life forms in our definition of people.
Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: Davin on January 17, 2020, 02:17:10 PM
Quote from: billy rubin on January 16, 2020, 07:52:36 PM
Quote from: Davin on January 16, 2020, 07:02:49 PM

If you treat all your measures with an equal amount of scrutiny, you'll likely have to either drop all of them or realize that a single measure in itself it not enough for anything useful.

i have dropped all of them, davin. i don't believe in morality. but what other people believe is interesting to me.
How do you operate in life? How do you make decisions if you've dropped all measures?

Either you're operating without thinking and making decisions, or you have not in fact dropped all measures. Tough choice to commit to, either you admit to being a thoughtless automaton or your admit that you lied. I suppose the other dishonest option is to ignore and/or otherwise avoid it.

Quote from: billy rubin
Quote from: davin
Do you breath, drink, and eat or are those natural things you also avoid?

most people don't consider those things to involve moral questions.

what is your reason for bringing them up?
Most people do consider those things to be moral questions. Who thinks that feeding the hungry is not a moral issue? That providing clean drinking water to people who otherwise do not have it is not a moral issue? Might want to go back and take a better look at morality. Because those things are very much a part of moral considerations by most people.

Why am I bringing them up? Should be pretty obvious, they are good things that are natural. You only listed bad things that you claim are natural. If your goal is to be rational, then it's important to consider all sides of an issue.
Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: billy rubin on January 17, 2020, 02:49:26 PM
i make my decizions from a philosophical pozition of absurdity, davin. given an exiztentialist position of ultimate nihilizm, i reject the idea that there is meaning to exiztence. there is neither an ultimate meazure to compare meaning to, nor iz there a zelf-derived meani g to seek out in our exiztenxe.

zo i choose to act in a manner that appearz to be moral, for my own emotional and aezthetic reasons. tbere s no ul timate advantage in doing so, but it doeznt matter what i choose, becauze all choices are equally absurd. i pick one that looks good to me and use it to derive a model for living. but im under no lilusionz that i have chozen something of actual value.

you are equivocating in your exampke of the moral value of breathing, drinking, or eating, unlezz you re an epicurean. theres nothing moral about any of tboze in any society i know of. depriving someone of air, water, or food creates a moral queztion about the justification for depriving others of life. thatz quite different from worrying about whether breathibg is moral.

regardi g good or evil. i chooze examplez in order to illustrate my queztion correctly. what do you consider to be natural and at tbe zame time good? deztroying rivalz in mating increases my genetic reprezentation in subsequent generations . iz that good? seems so. fighting over territory provides more security for my children. that zeems good az well, but you have juzt said that tbey are examplez of what iz bad.

why?
Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: Old Seer on January 17, 2020, 03:21:33 PM
Quote from: Bad Penny II on January 17, 2020, 12:13:09 PM
Quote from: Old Seer on January 16, 2020, 04:08:16 PM
Nature works both ways. Nature cannot be right or wrong, it only can be good or evil. But good and evil are only relative to people as nature cannot be be good or evil to itself. Good and evil can only be reckoned as to what help or harm happens to what can comprehend the help or harm.
No, I don't think so, your neighbour asks you to look after her 1, 3 and 5 year old children while she goes to the shop. You say ye and proceed to blind all three with a bodkin. You've assaulted my sensibility some but it's not about what you've done to me, it's what I recognise in you and your actions.

Noun: evil
1. Morally objectionable behaviour
2. That which causes harm, destruction or misfortune
3. The quality of being morally wrong in principle or practice

Quote from: Old Seer on January 16, 2020, 04:08:16 PMBefore cogitation the universe didn't contain good or evil, and good and evil can only come about when there is a being to comprehend it. So, before people there was no good or evil.
I hope we're including other sentient life forms in our definition of people.
Nature must work both ways. There's plants we can eat and there's plants that are poisonous. Both are a product of nature. The sun is good for somethings and bad for others.
A mountain goat sees the rock rolling toward it and it instinctively moves out of the way. It has comprehended an evil. But it cannot reason it to be an evil, it merely is aware. It's only the cognitive being that gives evil it's label and the goat has no label. People have a higher ability to reason and there-fore can not only comprehend an evil, the person can devise it. The mountain goats society is static and mostly unchangeable because they cannot reason to change it. The Goat cannot plan an extinction of it's society, but people can. The goat does what it is designed to do and be. People can plan evil making intelligence it's own enemy. People can become knowledgeable of what is harmful or helpful. It's the reasoning being (people) that understands the process of evil compared to the processes of good. Goats don't cognitively plan a garden so it cannot plan it's lot and only move toward where it's safe and life supporting.
Beings , with a few exceptions, are formed with a initial and basic input/output system installed by nature. There are things one does that are inherent. A baby is not taught to reach out and grasp an object. It will do so by inference without thinking. The same is for the goats. But a goat cannot mentally migrate into being a reasoning planner and at a particular point remains mentally static. People go beyond the static and from that can comprehend good from evil cognitively. People do not invent good and evil as it is present in nature, but can recognize good and evil and make choices accordingly. Good and evil can only come into existence when there is something/one to experience it. Notice that good and evil only pertains to beings that can experience the effects and it applies to biological forms. Without the bio forms there can be no good or evil.
Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: Old Seer on January 17, 2020, 03:27:47 PM
Quote from: billy rubin on January 17, 2020, 10:57:27 AM
interesting. your use of the term "evil" is similar to the american use of the legal term "assault." assault is defined as a threat of harm coupled to the ability to carry out the threat. the threat must be apparent to the one threatened. in contrast, "battery" is an actual co ntact.

so if i walk up to you and raize my fist intending to ztrike you, and cause you to fear for yoyr zafety, i have assaulted you. if i do the same thing while your back iz turned so that you are unaware, there iz no assault.

like wise. you seem to zay that if i carry out an act that is to your detriment. but you are unaware, it is not evil. evil can only occur if the recipient recognizes it.

what happens if i perform an act that you do not recognize as harmful until later? does the act begin as neutral and then change to evil at a subsequent time?

for example if i were to set fire to a structure, intending to kill you, but you were not inside and under no threat. later you discover that you are actually trapped close enough to be injured.  burning tbe structure would have no ultimate value of good or evil, but would be one or the other as the situation changed.
What you're equating here is, willful damage upon another. That's why there are civilizations, to curb such behavior. What your, getting into is humane vs inhumane. That goes into "person type" which would be another subject. By natural construction of a person amounts to is, beings have a sense of human vs inhumane characters.
Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: Old Seer on January 17, 2020, 03:32:36 PM
Quote from: Bad Penny II on January 17, 2020, 12:13:09 PM
Quote from: Old Seer on January 16, 2020, 04:08:16 PM
Nature works both ways. Nature cannot be right or wrong, it only can be good or evil. But good and evil are only relative to people as nature cannot be be good or evil to itself. Good and evil can only be reckoned as to what help or harm happens to what can comprehend the help or harm.
No, I don't think so, your neighbour asks you to look after her 1, 3 and 5 year old children while she goes to the shop. You say ye and proceed to blind all three with a bodkin. You've assaulted my sensibility some but it's not about what you've done to me, it's what I recognise in you and your actions.

Noun: evil
1. Morally objectionable behaviour
2. That which causes harm, destruction or misfortune
3. The quality of being morally wrong in principle or practice

Quote from: Old Seer on January 16, 2020, 04:08:16 PMBefore cogitation the universe didn't contain good or evil, and good and evil can only come about when there is a being to comprehend it. So, before people there was no good or evil.
I hope we're including other sentient life forms in our definition of people.
Morality is what's human vs what is inhuman. That ventures into person type, or psychology.
Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: Bad Penny II on January 17, 2020, 03:34:55 PM
Quote from: billy rubin on January 17, 2020, 02:49:26 PM
i make my decizions from a philosophical pozition of absurdity, davin. given an exiztentialist position of ultimate nihilizm, i reject the idea that there is meaning to exiztence. there is neither an ultimate meazure to compare meaning to, nor iz there a zelf-derived meani g to seek out in our exiztenxe.

zo i choose to act in a manner that appearz to be moral, for my own emotional and aezthetic reasons. tbere s no ul timate advantage in doing so, but it doeznt matter what i choose, becauze all choices are equally absurd. i pick one that looks good to me and use it to derive a model for living. but im under no lilusionz that i have chozen something of actual value.

You don't have to keep saying that like it's you're great discovery, most of us learnt it by the time we were eighteen.

Quote from: billy rubin on January 17, 2020, 02:49:26 PM
in order to illustrate my queztion correctly. what do you consider to be natural and at tbe zame time good?
Fuck me side ways and maybe you'll make sense.
Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: Davin on January 17, 2020, 03:47:28 PM
Quote from: billy rubin on January 17, 2020, 02:49:26 PM
i make my decizions from a philosophical pozition of absurdity[...]
I see you have chosen the dishonest avoidance option. So you have not abandoned all measures then? Either you lied when you said you did, or you do not make decisions. If you have truly dropped all measures, then if you're owed $100 but only receive a potato, then you would be oblivious to the difference. Absurd, indeed.

The point I'm making, is that we all use measures to decide things. We almost always use multiple measures to decide on things. Something being natural or not is one such measure, but rarely ever the sole measure for a person to decide on something.

Quote from: billy rubin
regardi g good or evil. i chooze examplez in order to illustrate my queztion correctly. what do you consider to be natural and at tbe zame time good? deztroying rivalz in mating increases my genetic reprezentation in subsequent generations . iz that good? seems so. fighting over territory provides more security for my children. that zeems good az well, but you have juzt said that tbey are examplez of what iz bad.

why?
I consider eating to be natural and at the same time good. I consider a mother caring for her child to be natural and at the same time good. I consider sleeping to be natural and at the same time good. I consider being comfortable to be natural and at the same time good. And many more things.

As I have already stated, what is natural is not always good or always bad and is quite often neutral. But you only bring in bad examples and refuse to acknowledge any good examples, which is clearly demonstrating that you have an irrational bias. If you were truly interested in how other people think, then you should be willing to accept their positions. But you seem to be highly resistant to accepting how other people think, which makes me think that you're not actually interested in how other people think and are more interested in trying to tear other people down.
Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: Bad Penny II on January 17, 2020, 03:50:29 PM
Quote from: Old Seer on January 17, 2020, 03:32:36 PM
Quote from: Bad Penny II on January 17, 2020, 12:13:09 PM
Quote from: Old Seer on January 16, 2020, 04:08:16 PM
Nature works both ways. Nature cannot be right or wrong, it only can be good or evil. But good and evil are only relative to people as nature cannot be be good or evil to itself. Good and evil can only be reckoned as to what help or harm happens to what can comprehend the help or harm.
No, I don't think so, your neighbour asks you to look after her 1, 3 and 5 year old children while she goes to the shop. You say ye and proceed to blind all three with a bodkin. You've assaulted my sensibility some but it's not about what you've done to me, it's what I recognise in you and your actions.

Noun: evil
1. Morally objectionable behaviour
2. That which causes harm, destruction or misfortune
3. The quality of being morally wrong in principle or practice

Quote from: Old Seer on January 16, 2020, 04:08:16 PMBefore cogitation the universe didn't contain good or evil, and good and evil can only come about when there is a being to comprehend it. So, before people there was no good or evil.
I hope we're including other sentient life forms in our definition of people.
Morality is what's human vs what is inhuman. That ventures into person type, or psychology.

So you say but I see no reason to humour you.
Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: billy rubin on January 17, 2020, 04:26:02 PM
Quote from: Bad Penny II on January 17, 2020, 03:34:55 PM

You don't have to keep saying that like it's you're great discovery, most of us learnt it by the time we were eighteen.

davin asked.  seems he missed our earlier discussion.

every day is a new day to me anyway.

Quote
Quote from: billy rubin on January 17, 2020, 02:49:26 PM
in order to illustrate my queztion correctly. what do you consider to be natural and at tbe zame time good?
Fuck me side ways and maybe you'll make sense.

lol

that might or might not be natural.
Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: Davin on January 17, 2020, 05:05:51 PM
Quote from: billy rubin on January 17, 2020, 04:26:02 PM
Quote from: Bad Penny II on January 17, 2020, 03:34:55 PM

You don't have to keep saying that like it's you're great discovery, most of us learnt it by the time we were eighteen.

davin asked.  seems he missed our earlier discussion.
You answered a question I did not ask.
Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: billy rubin on January 17, 2020, 05:33:56 PM
well

then you learned something you did not expect.
Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: Davin on January 17, 2020, 07:33:41 PM
Quote from: billy rubin on January 17, 2020, 05:33:56 PM
well

then you learned something you did not expect.
Doesn't make it any less useless, but I did expect it.
Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: billy rubin on January 17, 2020, 11:12:30 PM
lol


(https://www.memesmonkey.com/images/memesmonkey/b2/b25a2d826608e36f195760cf8cf19fd3.jpeg)
Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: Inertialmass on January 26, 2020, 03:33:56 PM
I have been shocked to discover people who are considered to be, and who claim to be, upright, honest, non-lying, respected members of Internet Forums but are then caught creating and using sockpuppets.

Isn't it an egregious form of lying, an insidious breach of trust, to make and use online sockpuppets?

Or is this all a kinda "make believe" world of avatars and anonymous personalities anyhow, where anything goes???
Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: Dark Lightning on January 26, 2020, 04:31:49 PM
Have you spotted a sock here, or is this something you've observed elsewhere?
Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: Inertialmass on January 26, 2020, 11:58:50 PM
The socks were elsewhere!  Sorry, I should have been clear.  My interest is in whether there's a real moral gray area, or is the creation of these trust-busting frauds a genuine, outright lie?


Title: Re: Lying:
Post by: Recusant on January 27, 2020, 02:36:22 AM
There are shades of grey in sock puppetry as in most human endeavours.  I'm of the opinion that their ethical implications depend entirely on their intended purpose.