politics and religion

[imaginaryfriendless]

Greetings, my hopefully happy friends.
     My name is Jamie, and I'd love to say it's great to be here, but this time I am reserving judgment.  Fool me once...

     Im 50 years old, recently retired as an airline pilot. Father of 3 grown children, husband to an amazing wife. Besides civilian aviation I served as a pilot in the united states air force for 8 years, and as a deputy sheriff here in my native Texas, just as a bucket list item. The department worked with my airline schedule for 8 years.  I have a masters degree in herpetology, of all things. Long story.
 
     I've been an atheist since the age of 12 or so. Raised a laid-back methodist, it wasn't long before the lack of logic, much less proof, caused me to question religion.

     Ive never sought out other atheists before about 2 weeks ago. I came across the atheist forum, and decided to join to see what it was like. I spent most of a day there, made a number of interesting new friends,  and was very satisfied with my new peer group.

     Then I made some offhand comment that let them know I was a republican conservative.  Within minutes the judgement and hatred and abuse reached epic heights...it was amazing. I told them goodbye and left the forum.

I had never realized atheism was political,  nor had I realized it was predominantly liberal. I just wanted to have conversations without an imaginary friend present...that's it!

     So, against my better judgment,  here I am at another forum.

So...hi guys!

[Dave]

Greetings, IF, let's hope you have a better experience here!

Being an apolitical Brit with a cynical view of all politicians, never believe what they say - just what they do, I can claim a sort of neutrality!

But, if you are a Trump supporter I might wonder why.

[joeactor]

Hi Jamie - Welcome!

I lived in the DFW area for about 10 years. Must be a challenge to be an atheist there.

Lots of folks of all types here. Most are pretty friendly. (I'm even a theist, and still here!)

On politics, I'm usually a Democrat, but have friends of all types.

Trump's an interesting animal. I truly can't understand why anyone would vote for him. But in the USA, that's how we're setup. Understanding is nice, but it's the votes that count.

Hope you enjoy your time here,
JoeActor

[Recusant]

Sorry but you are not allowed to view spoiler contents.

Ahem. Now that we've got that out of the way, hello and welcome to HAF, imaginaryfriendless. 

Over the years we've had people of various political persuasions here; at least one current American member generally expresses what I perceive to be conservative political opinions, and there are probably a couple Europeans who are more or less right wing. Then again I think that the average European conservative and their American counterpart will disagree on many topics.

It's been my experience that the majority of atheists who bother to get together online tend to be left wing, but I've come across a few who confidently promote values that I consider right wing. Given the rules and ethos of this site, I hope that while many here will disagree with your political views, your expression of them will get polite responses.

Many members of my immediate family (six; four brothers & two sisters) are in the Air Force or are retired Air Force, including one bomber pilot, so we at least have something besides our atheism in common. 

Anyway, this is a rather small site and abusive posting is right out (in fact, it's been said that HAF is "over moderated") so if you can tolerate disagreement, I think you'll get along fine. Time will tell. 

Meanwhile, some threads you might find interesting:

Where did you get your username from?
10 Things About Yourself
Tell us A Bit About Where You're From
Photography
Non-religious pet peeves
Pets...what do you have?
How to tell your family you are an atheist
"Rules for Conducting a Discussion" by Dr. Mortimer J. Adler

. . . And of course, the Forum Rules.

I hope you enjoy your time reading and posting here! 

[Asmodean]

A pilot, you say? That's cool.

A Professional opinion, if you don't mind; in the case of Malaysian flight 370, it's been stated/speculated/insert-proper-verb that the cause of it going dwn may have been pilot suicide. To me, it just seems unlikely by virtue of utter inefficiency. I compare it a bit to letting your car run out of gas in the middle of nowhere before plunging it into a mountainside. Why do it that way rather than just bloody well driving into the first cliff you see?

Also, are there not safeguards for such instances? Those aircraft do pretty much can fly themselves after all, can they not? Probably silly questions, but still... there they are, and the friendly Wiki is kind of silent on those issues. Also, it's likely politically incorrect to start talking about planes going down  immediately upon first meeting a pilot, but you DID survive it and politically incorrect is sort of what I do around here.

But I digress. Welcome to HaF!

[imaginaryfriendless]

Hello, Gloucester!
Well...out of the frying pan and into the fire. Once more into the breech, dear friends.

I'm a native Texan. I grew up on our family cattle ranch in extreme west Texas. 240,000 acres of cattle and land that tried to kill you. It was a great way to grow up.

Texas is a gun culture. We don't think about it any more than you think about your shoes, or your wallet. We believe in the right to protect ourselves and our loved ones and our property. Is my truck worth a human life? Yes. I can hear the liberals fainting...but that life made a choice to try to steal my property- nobody forced their hand. I'm not a shoot first kind of person, so if I shoot someone, I had no choice, but in Texas you do not have to claim your life was in danger to use deadly force. You have the right to protect your property. I like that. Liberals HATE that.

I grew up with guns. So did my children. I have a large gun collection, because I love the machines, the history, the harsh reality. I bonded with my father, and with my friends, with hunting and shooting sports. We NEVER think of guns as a means to kill people, unless during training and practice for self defense or when in a real situation. The vast majority of the time I think about guns the way you probably think about your cell phone. By the way, cell phones kill more people annually in the US than guns. Look it up.

My children earned their concealed carry permits as they hit 21. They always have a gun on them, as do I and my wife- most of my extended family, all of my friends. I have a very large gun collection and a 300 yard shooting range here on my ranch. My kids grew up with guns. I'm a master gunsmith, and my kids are all apprentice smiths...they can all handle complete disassembly/reassembly of just about any firearm you can name, as well as make repairs. Yet in over 40 years of gun handling and ownership, I have never had an accident, nor an accidental discharge, of any type. I don't know anyone personally who has had an accident, either. I did work two, during my 8 years as a deputy sheriff. One was a kid who shot his father in the leg with a .22 accidentally, and one was a 15 year old kid who got his father's pistol out of the safe and shot himself in the head...whether accident or suicide we could not determine. That's it. Accidents happen, but they are rare, despite what the media reports.

Hillary wants to deny me this part of my culture. The media warps everything towards a liberal view, and people blame the gun instead of looking at the real problems. I don't think this is freedom...and this is just one example of the type of government intervention many liberals seem to be after. Less is more- Texans just want to be free to do what they want, and to be left alone. I couldn't possibly care less if my actions hurt your feelings- that's your problem. Leave. Walk away. But if my actions cause you physical harm or impede YOUR right to freedom, then the government should step in. Political correctness is ridiculous- grow up.

I realize I am generalizing, and not all liberals feel the same way about everything. I'm basing this on campaign remarks and past history.

I think Trump is a TERRIBLE choice for president. BUT. There's always a but.
Obama has done a great deal of damage, divided us racially like no force in history, and set up subsidies and bailouts that are coming due- our financial state is beginning to get frightening. Anyone who understands the US economy sees the writing on the wall. Whoever the next president is, is going to take the blame. Let Trump take it!

Besides scapegoat, Trump is an egotistical maniac. So is Hillary, but Trump is a billionaire used to getting his way. Where a "normal" president would slowly begin making changes to Obama and Bush's mess, trying desperately not to upset the applecart, Trump will flip that cart into the Atlantic. He will make radical changes, cause huge disruptions, I have little doubt. It will be painful. But then, birth always is.

Because after 4 years, hopefully, we will see a worthy candidate, who can come in and put some polish on Trump's raw work, and get the US back where it need to be, with no apologies.

Will all this work? Hell, I don't know. If nothing else, it'll be entertaining.

One thing to consider, is that if Hillary wins, I give revolution a 75% chance of occurring. There is ALOT of anger out there, and the angry folks are conservatives, who own most of the guns and comprise most of the military. Speaking as a man who has been shot at- and indeed even shot- Go Trump!

My problems with the Dems go far beyond gun control- this is just an easy topic everyone is familiar with. Basically, for me, it comes down to nothing more than freedom. What gives you the right to tell me what I can and can't do? Piss off. Let us decide, as a state, how we want to live. The federal government should be small and essentially powerless on its own, as our forefathers intended.

So, I'm a nut. Should I pack again? 

[Asmodean]

By the way, cell phones kill more people annually in the US than guns. Look it up.

This sounds objectionable, but...

Is my truck worth a human life? Yes. I can hear the liberals fainting...

...this gun-control supporter also seconds the above motion.

[imaginaryfriendless]

Hi Asmodean!
     Well, it's a tough call.I worked accident investigation for awhile, and it's always so difficult to determine cause if it isn't equipment/structural failure documented by the flight recorder.

     I haven't studied that particular accident in any detail, but from the little I know...it's probably unanswerable. An oxygen/pressurization problem put everyone to sleep? Who knows. While the plane is capable of flying itself to a degree, there are limits- and the plot tells the plane what he wants it to do, so it's not like autonomous control. I have no idea how Malaysian aircraft are equipped or maintained, outside of the required gear for operating in foreign airspace.

     FAA guidelines would likely have prevented the accident, because as much as I have cursed them, they actually do a good job, particularly with part 121 (airline) carriers. Numerous safeguards are in place, redundancies required, reporting required, etc...while anything is possible, I would tend to believe- possibly with American arrogance- that the system Malaysian air uses allowed whatever occurred to occur. I have flown a lot internationally, and in my experience many countries, for some reason often asian countries, have a lackadaisical attitude towards regulations in aviation.

I can't give you a cogent answer, really...I just believe- and hope I'm correct- that our system would have prevented the accident.

I remember an accident my father told me about during the Korean war. He flew F-86's during that conflict, and a bomber (friendly, although I don't remember if he told me the type) flew off into the sunset, basically. He and his wingman tried to figure out why, and it appeared the crew was asleep. They fired their canons, buzzed the cockpit, even nudged a wing trying to wake them, but in the end it just flew on until in eventually impacted the water. Oxygen system failure was suspected.

[imaginaryfriendless]

Like anything statistical, Asmodean, there is some room for interpretation, but a study in 2014 determined that fatal accidents caused by texting and driving or other cell phone related distractions outnumbered gun deaths, discounting military actions. I think I can find it, it was a reputable study. Of course you can modify the parameters a bit and get any answer you please, which is what is wrong with statistics in politics, lol...but it's enough to make a point, I think.

[imaginaryfriendless]

Hello Recusant and Joeactor! Thank you. I hope I'm not too objectionable...most native Texans are pretty opinionated, our reputation is deserved.

Am I posting correctly? It seems like you should be able to place the post under the one you're answering...I'm not exactly a forum wizard!

[Dave]

Slow down, IF!

You must have had a really lousy experience in that last forum.

I asked out of the spirit of enquirey, you cannot understand anyone until you have an idea of his or her motivations and values.

Even as an ex-serviceman who fully believes that punishment should reflect the crime fully and explicitly - I have nothing against the death sentence for what you might csll 1st degree murder, providing the evidence is 100% solid.

However I cannot conceive of the mindset of a "nation", and Texas almost is one in some ways, that considers guns as daily accessories for going out. To me it does seem crazy, more likely to get you killed than protected. But thst is only a viewpoint from over the pond, where thise how carry guns, without an officual uniform and badge, are 99% criminals.

In any crowded area, and Europe is very crowded compared to America, the indiscriminate use of gu s vouldvresult in many innocent casualties. We have mors use of guns by ISIS supporters now, but I cannot see how - say in a criwded dance hall - half the dancers shooting back, to "pritect" themselves coukd rssult in anything other than a wirse massacre.

OK, where a family trains their kids in gun safety one hopes those kids keep as cool a head as any special services operator if involved in a shooting situation. But is gun discipline that good amongst all civilians? How many gun related accidents happen? How many kids accidentally kill someone?

There are many other points in your post and I will not attempt to cover all of them. I just feel for the choice you guys have to make over your leadership, more like being between a pit and a quicksand than the usual simile.That, combined with our own uncertain future in the UK almost makes me glad of my 71 years and less worried about my cardiac condition!

Added later: looks like some of my points were dealt with while I was composing. Ignore as applicable.

[Asmodean]

Actually, your answer does clear things up a bit. Thank you.

Yes, I do suspect that some airlines do have their fleet get by on the bare minimums of what the least amount of money can buy and still be legal, and I do suspect that that might have been a contributiong factor in the disappearance of Flight 370. We may well never know, but I must admit I'm kind of fascinated by that one.

I brought it up because in recent days, the Norwegian media have been buzzing about the pilot suicide angle of the story again, citing sources that claim that the pilot in question simulated such a "dead-end" route in a flight simulator earlier. I'm a bit on the "yeah. And?" fence in regard to that, because while never having flown anything except an occasional ATV, snowmobile or water skis (VERY embarrassing) I'm not exactly new to the subject of suicide and experience tells me that when one is that serious about it, one takes the most efficient route within the immediate reach. Flying a quarter-way around the globe... Is not it.

While the plane is capable of flying itself to a degree, there are limits- and the plot tells the plane what he wants it to do, so it's not like autonomous control.

This I find interesting. I'm one of those who applaude this approach, actually, because until we develop viable AI with a fair approximation of an intuitive component, I appreciate my plane being operated by someone who can improvise in a pinch. Stories like the Hudson landing and the Gimli glider come to mind as good examples of what I mean.

Still, if one reads up on the subject of commersial piloting in layman's terms and layman's tabloids, one is inevitably led to believe that pilots are more or less there just to keep an eye on the flight computer and take control if and when needed. That not being entirely the case is.... Well, good, really.

FAA guidelines would likely have prevented the accident, because as much as I have cursed them, they actually do a good job, particularly with part 121 (airline) carriers. Numerous safeguards are in place, redundancies required, reporting required, etc...while anything is possible, I would tend to believe- possibly with American arrogance- that the system Malaysian air uses allowed whatever occurred to occur. I have flown a lot internationally, and in my experience many countries, for some reason often asian countries, have a lackadaisical attitude towards regulations in aviation.

I do not think it's at all arrogant to think the way you do on this matter. The more personal safety and longevity oriented cultures just do more to facilitate exactly those things. I happen to share that priority to the extent of not wanting my tech to kill me without my expressed permission.

I remember an accident my father told me about during the Korean war. He flew F-86's during that conflict, and a bomber (friendly, although I don't remember if he told me the type) flew off into the sunset, basically. He and his wingman tried to figure out why, and it appeared the crew was asleep. They fired their canons, buzzed the cockpit, even nudged a wing trying to wake them, but in the end it just flew on until in eventually impacted the water. Oxygen system failure was suspected.

Wow... I assume they did not have those masks that pop out of the ceiling to be spotted by a nearby aircraft so as to confirm that situation..? In any case, one would think a modern commercial aircraft would automatically pick up its satellite phone and start dialing if something like that happened... but they don't, do they?

[Recusant]

Hello Recusant and Joeactor! Thank you. I hope I'm not too objectionable...most native Texans are pretty opinionated, our reputation is deserved.

Our most prolific Christian member is from Texas. He's also very well liked here. 

Am I posting correctly? It seems like you should be able to place the post under the one you're answering...I'm not exactly a forum wizard!

Your posting technique seems to be fine.   

Not sure what you're getting at with the second part, but I'll take a shot at answering anyway. The "Quote" button you'll find in the top right of each post will take you to a "Post Reply" box with the post you're answering already quoted. You'll then be able to type your reply below the quoted post.

[Asmodean]

Like anything statistical, Asmodean, there is some room for interpretation, but a study in 2014 determined that fatal accidents caused by texting and driving or other cell phone related distractions outnumbered gun deaths, discounting military actions. I think I can find it, it was a reputable study. Of course you can modify the parameters a bit and get any answer you please, which is what is wrong with statistics in politics, lol...but it's enough to make a point, I think.

That is, in fact, not at all unlike what I meant by "objectionable." How many secondary, tertiary and so on causes were included on both sides of the issue? How do they comapre?

...Yes, if you are so inclined, I would actually like to read that study.

[imaginaryfriendless]

LOL Gloucester...in reading back, I'm probably daring anyone to take offense, subconsciously. Thanks for pointing that out. The last forum I was in...was so disappointing. I am recovering from hernia surgery, so I have a lot of time on my hands, and I spent a day getting to know folks there, and liking them- as far as I could tell it was reciprocated. Towards the end, something came up about immigration, I can't even remember the exact comment, it was nothing to me, but...all of these new "friends" turned on me like rabid wolverines. I didn't see it coming, and it was...disappointing. Let's just stick with disappointing.
What bothered me is that I'm not intolerant of other views- I just have my own. Your opinions don't threaten me, and I didn't expect mine to threaten/offend them. Like I said, I'm new to forums in general, and I was completely unaware that atheists and liberals were essentially synonymous!

As for "indiscriminate gunfire"...that's a common misconception that non-gun people often have. Anyone trained to shoot- and I firmly believe anyone who owns a gun should be- is taught to clear the area behind the target. Wait for an opportunity to fire, because if you miss what are you going to hit?

Nobody with even elementary training is going to spray bullets into a crowd. I've never seen it happen, except on TV or by the "bad guys".