Israeli-Hamas war

[Icarus]

The problems are becoming more scary every day. It appears that some other actors are threatening to enter the fray in one manner or another.

A few days ago an American Destroyer ship, in the Red sea, shot down several missiles. It was said that the missiles originated in Yemen and were thought ,or suspected, to target Israel. Missiles of Iranian origin most likely.

We have a bunch of big time warships in the Med. The Iranians are rattling their sabers again. Lebanese are trading fire with Israelis in the north, Egypt holding up shipments into Gaza while the Gaza citizens are starving. Their hospitals are running out of fuel to run their generators.......people will die needlessly.

This is a dangerous shitshow that could develop into a major conflict between several nations. Meanwhile innocent people are dying.

Too bad that this conflagration has crowded out almost all attention to the war in Ukraine. Humans are dying there too. Adding to the misery,my disfunctional House of Representatives are in no position to help us avoid another U.S.fiscal crisis.  

[billy rubin]

hamas had as its main goal the remibder that the palestinians were being ignored in tje middle east, and shpuld not be.

tbey were immensely successful

[Asmodean]

Heh... Does Hamas actually cares about the Palestinians, rather than about Hamas?

They want their caliphate.

[Tom62]

I don't think so, since they are using their own population (children included) as human shields.

[Asmodean]

It's a common talking point in some circles - or at least, they try to talk up Islamist jihadists, terrorists and people harboring those mentioned as some kind of grass roots liberation movement.

Billy, in all seriousness, if Hamas wanted the Palestinian average-Joes to be heard rarther than hurt, they would do anything but start a war with Israel.

As an analogy, you feel oppressed and ignored, so you strap a bomb to your otherwise fetching Victorian vest, wander over to your neighbours who have been taking their liberties with what you consider to be your rightful lawn, then blow yourself into red mist. Now they'll know, talk about it and remember! Now they will return the lawn to your spouse and children! Well... No. They'll talk about it, sure, then decide that you are an evil maniac, which they will not ever let your spouse and children forget, and that the world is far better off without you, cremate what they can of the abovementioned red mist and drag them patio chairs right back to that very lawn, which may formerly have been yours, but now.... 

I agree that they've succeeded to a point, just not in the goal stated - or that it even was a legitimate goal to begin with. People listening to those Palestinian voices you mentioned today are the same people who were listening to them last month. What has changed for their plight, other than the amount of ordinance raining down on them?

[billy rubin]

what has changed is that now the world has been reminded that tbe palestinians wont go away, and that there is a problem that must br solved, or this will happen again. and again.

the abraham accords are stalled, saudi may not immediately proceed with recognizing israel, iran is emboldened, and the arab world has been reminded that israel creates problems in their region that wont go away.

talking to israel has never done a thing for palestinians. they would mostly love peace, were it available. israel does not want peace.

[Tank]

I don't think so, since they are using their own population (children included) as human shields.

The leader of Hamas recently pointed out that it took Russia 30 million casualties to defeat Germany. He sees things from a different perspective.

[Tank]

what has changed is that now the world has been reminded that tbe palestinians wont go away, and that there is a problem that must br solved, or this will happen again. and again.

the abraham accords are stalled, saudi may not immediately proceed with recognizing israel, iran is emboldened, and the arab world has been reminded that israel creates problems in their region that wont go away.

talking to israel has never done a thing for palestinians. they would mostly love peace, were it available. israel does not want peace.

I think Israel wants peace but only on its own terms and that does not appear to encompass the Palestinians it inherited. If the 48/49 war had not happened I don't think the Middle East would be in the shit state it is today. That started  the cycle of violence that is still going on.

[Asmodean]

what has changed is that now the world has been reminded that tbe palestinians wont go away, and that there is a problem that must br solved, or this will happen again. and again.

the abraham accords are stalled, saudi may not immediately proceed with recognizing israel, iran is emboldened, and the arab world has been reminded that israel creates problems in their region that wont go away.

talking to israel has never done a thing for palestinians. they would mostly love peace, were it available. israel does not want peace.

I disagree with most of the above.

No, the world was not reminded that Palestinians won't go away - if anything, the Western part was reminded of that whole do-away-with-jihad theme we've had in the early-to-mid-naughties' (most recently, that is) international relations and it may have reminded certain parts of the Arab world that they equally would like to do away with Israel.

From here, the question becomes whether or not Israel has what it takes to take Gaza, keep it and turn it into something other than breeding ground for Iranian proxy wars. I suppose on the flipside, the question is whether Hamas can manage to hold their territory, but let's face it...

What makes you assume that most Palestinians love peace? What kind of peace? Under which terms? Why do those "most palestinians" then not stamp out those elements in their society not intent on peace of "any kind" but their own? Remember, Israel did not attack Hamas - they responded to having been attacked, as is proper of a nation seeking to secure a certain standard of safety for its own citizens.

I guess what I'm saying is it may be prudent to leave reckless, sweeping generalisations to virtue-singalling celebrity airheads. Reality often has multiple variables to consider. Cultural, religious, social and economic for starters. "People are all the same" is not even a skin-deep philosophy. (Since I like analogies; a sailboat is a means of getting from A to B. Is it therefore similar to a pair of legs?)

[billy rubin]

I don't think so, since they are using their own population (children included) as human shields.

The leader of Hamas recently pointed out that it took Russia 30 million casualties to defeat Germany. He sees things from a different perspective.

so far israel has killed 5800 palestinian civilians and about 1500 hamas soldiers. thats 5 dead palestnians for every israeli.

2000 dead children. i read of a dictor walking out of a destroyed medical facility with two headless children in his hands.

israel cannot win. apparently there are 30,000 regular hamas militants and 30 000 part timers. they are immune to attacks by regular troops and wont stand still to fight an israeli army anyway. if israel invades, they will slip into tbeir tunnel systems, shoot a few israelis from behind, and then disappear into sinai. israel will have captured gaza, which it has made no plans for, and the hamas fighters will simply regroup in the same way the taliban did.

nobody is addressing root causes here

[Tank]

...

nobody is addressing root causes here

I totally agree. And that's probably because they are just to big

[billy rubin]

maybe so. giving the palestinians somewhere to live that isnt under the thumb of the israelis would be a start, but israel isnt interested

[Tom62]

Israel consists of only a small piece of land, where the Jews have been living for many centuries. Why don't their Arab neighbors give the Palestinians a place to live? Makes far more sense, because they are much, much larger than Israel and sparsely populated.

[Tank]

maybe so. giving the palestinians somewhere to live that isnt under the thumb of the israelis would be a start, but israel isnt interested

And I'm not sure the Palestinians would accept that solution either.

[Tank]

Israel consists of only a small piece of land, where the Jews have been living for many centuries. Why don't their Arab neighbors give the Palestinians a place to live? Makes far more sense, because they are much, much larger than Israel and sparsely populated.

They'd rather have an excuse to hate. By that I mean politicians and royalty always find it useful to have an enemy to blame or focus outrage on. That's why Argentina invaded the Falkland Islands in 1982.