I know this is an old article, but I wanted to share anyway. Obviously eliminating religion in school is a huge first step...
Please read and post your comments/opinions.
http://www.azarmajedi.com/articles/Ban%20all%20religious%20schools.html
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Azar Majedi: Yes. They must be banned and education must be separated from religion and the church. Universal laws and standards are the basis of a civil society that respects human rights and of religion from the state and education is the basis of a secular society, where free thinking is respected and encouraged. Religion, in my opinion, is permeated with superstition and contradicts the scientific achievements of humanity. For all these reasons religious schools must be banned. Furthermore, all religions are patriarcha and sexist. As it regards Islam, it is well- known for its sexist codes and rules. This is so because Islam has not historically been challenged or reformed, as it is
Don't you think that's just a tad extreme, sweetdeath? To say the least? Let's not forget that religious people come in all shapes and sizes. Some are fanatics, others are moderate, most I'd say are merely interested in nothing else than raising good kids. Ok, religion isn't the only way to do this, but to just say that raising kids to be religious is child abuse is a little melodramatic. Do you know any religious people with kids? Surely you don't think they've all turned out to be wrecks. I think you're being quite unreasonable. Child abuse isn't a term that you can just throw around just because you disagree with a religion or don't believe in god. It's like trying to have your cake and eat it. Other people are entitled to believe what they like, and raise their kids in the way they think is best.
First off, did you even read the article?
You are right, religious fanatics come in all extremes, though let's be realistic,religion has nothing to do with teaching a child right from wrong. If anything, religion promotes sexism, prejudice, and segragation.
As far as child abuse, if you read the article, I was mainly referring to islam, which promotes extreme sexism, forcing girls to cover themselves with veils, unable to go out without a man, etc.
Segragation comes from Jewish people who refuse to date or marry outside if their own religion. I will not say ALL Jewish people, because I'm sure a lot broke away from that.
I honestly think raising a child without religion is the way to a better future for all. Like the article says, children aren't born with a need for any religion. It's the parents who usually force it on them.
Quote from: Sweetdeath on July 27, 2011, 12:34:05 AM
First off, did you even read the article?
You are right, religious fanatics come in all extremes, though let's be realistic,religion has nothing to do with teaching a child right from wrong. If anything, religion promotes sexism, prejudice, and segragation.
As far as child abuse, if you read the article, I was mainly referring to islam, which promotes extreme sexism, forcing girls to cover themselves with veils, unable to go out without a man, etc.
Segragation comes from Jewish people who refuse to date or marry outside if their own religion. I will not say ALL Jewish people, because I'm sure a lot broke away from that.
I honestly think raising a child without religion is the way to a better future for all. Like the article says, children aren't born with a need for any religion. It's the parents who usually force it on them.
One doesn't have to be religious to be sexist, or any of the other things which are sometimes associated with religions. Are you really suggesting, for example, that a religious person, say a muslim, who raises their kids to be good, and uses their religion as a guide, and has no interest in being sexist, and focuses on what they see as positive aspects of the religion, is abusing their kids? If you do then that's naive. You're lumping all religious people into one great big box and that's as dangerous as us being labelled as evil for not believing in god. What really gets me is when someone generalises like crazy, as you're doing, just because some people believe in things that you don't believe in. I think that's taking things way too far.
I'm seriously not trying to generalize. Anyone, religious or not can become a sexist asshole, but ... I think most religions already promote a certain behavior and mindset.
I've had some Christians and Catholics say to me their religion is against gays, etc, therefore they cannot be my friend.
I've also been snubbed some hindus and muslims for being a woman, therefore "weak."
I know it isn't all, but it's A LOT.
I am not generalising. o_o
Quote from: Sweetdeath on July 27, 2011, 12:48:20 AM
I'm seriously not trying to generalize. Anyone, religious or not can become a sexist asshole, but ... I think most religions already promote a certain behavior and mindset.
I've had some Christians and Catholics say to me their religion is against gays, etc, therefore they cannot be my friend.
I am not generalising. o_o
Well if you think about it, you should really try to separate everything you've heard about a religion (whether it's true or not) from what an individual's concept of the religion is. Is it not true that some (ie) christians are fanatical weirdos who focus much more on the loony aspects of the religion, while others have no interest in anything much other than the basics, like treating others as you'd have them treat you, and so on? You see, each individual is different. To say that raising one's kids to be religious is child abuse is to completely disregard the fact that each individual's motivations and concepts of the religion is different. A parent who teaches their kids that god created them and loves them and that they must always strive to be good decent people is not, in my opinion, child abuse in any way shape or form. I would assume, or hope, that you would agree with that.
As for having been snubbed by some hindus and muslims, well all I can say is, open your mind. If you think they're all like that that is sad. I've been snubbed by black people a few times but I never concluded that blacks are all like that. It's like anything else, you judge the individual. You don't just assume that their race or belief system is what wholly defines them. You are a lesbian but there's way much more to you than that. How would you like it if somebody refused to look at your personality and character, and just judged you on your sexuality? It wouldn't be very nice would it? I don't understand why you would do the same to others. If you think about it, you're in the same boat as religious people in that respect. Actually we are all in the same boat. We are all members of some group or other, which could so easily be judged in a negative and unfair way. I would have thought that you would be well aware of this.
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As for having been snubbed by some hindus and muslims, well all I can say is, open your mind. If you think they're all like that that is sad. I've been snubbed by black people a few times but I never concluded that blacks are all like that.
I just said not all. I am not going to further waste my breath with responses to you. I am just going to wait for others to read and reply, as once again, you have gone way off topic.
Good day.
Quote from: Sweetdeath on July 27, 2011, 01:08:28 AM
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As for having been snubbed by some hindus and muslims, well all I can say is, open your mind. If you think they're all like that that is sad. I've been snubbed by black people a few times but I never concluded that blacks are all like that.
I just said not all. I am not going to further waste my breath with responses to you. I am just going to wait for others to read and reply, as once again, you have gone way off topic.
Good day.
Correction. I'm exactly on topic. You may not be saying that all hindus and muslims would snub you, and I know you're not saying that, but you are certainly saying that raising one's kids to be religious is, per se, child abuse. Which is a huge generalisation which you're unable, of course, to justify.
I personally don't believe in having religion in school at all. Everything else *the Islamic part* I'm skipping right on over. It's no one's business what religion parents want to teach their children.
And Sweetdeath, I have to just ask out of sheer curiosity. Do you know any Muslim people in real life?
(this would be me asking for clarification as to be civil per Tank's suggestion ;))
Quote from: Medusa on July 27, 2011, 01:54:52 AM
I personally don't believe in having religion in school at all. Everything else *the Islamic part* I'm skipping right on over. It's no one's business what religion parents want to teach their children.
And Sweetdeath, I have to just ask out of sheer curiosity. Do you know any Muslim people in real life?
(this would be me asking for clarification as to be civil per Tank's suggestion ;))
Yes, religion should be kept out of school, which is really the main of this article and thread.
And sadly I don't. I am friends with a pretty cool Hindu guy. He's an IT. We nerd over old school nintendo games a lot. XD
Quote from: Sweetdeath on July 27, 2011, 02:02:37 AM
Quote from: Medusa on July 27, 2011, 01:54:52 AM
I personally don't believe in having religion in school at all. Everything else *the Islamic part* I'm skipping right on over. It's no one's business what religion parents want to teach their children.
And Sweetdeath, I have to just ask out of sheer curiosity. Do you know any Muslim people in real life?
(this would be me asking for clarification as to be civil per Tank's suggestion ;))
Yes, religion should be kept out of school, which is really the main of this article and thread.
And sadly I don't. I am friends with a pretty cool Hindu guy. He's an IT. We nerd over old school nintendo games a lot. XD
Ahh. It's understandable. Religion should be kept out of everything except your home and personal life. Just how smoking is! I was raised with a Hindu family next door. A Lutheran best friend, another Pagan best friend and a big Catholic family. I got the hodge podge of religious interactions starting from a very young age. Our experiences make the difference in our perceptions. I've known quite a few Muslims (I get regular customers who bowl at my work) mostly Malaysians but a few Egyptian families. They have been very nice. And if you ever meet an actual Muslim woman...You will be surprised on the feisty mouth they carry! These are not weak women in any means. They are pushy and loud mouthed wonderfully feisty women. ;D
I am sadly in a extreme Catholic neighborhood.
Though when I meet people one on one, I only care if they are a good, open minded person. If their religion doesn't get in the way, I could care less. But once I start getting invited to baptisms, I have to just turn and walk away. XD
Quote from: Sweetdeath on July 27, 2011, 02:13:28 AM
I am sadly in a extreme Catholic neighborhood.
Though when I meet people one on one, I only care if they are a good, open minded person. If their religion doesn't get in the way, I could care less. But once I start getting invited to baptisms, I have to just turn and walk away. XD
Nooo you need to go! You have no idea the party afterwards! Lots of food! Catholics eat alot!
(no wonder my family was fat) tee hee.
It isn't child abuse, unless the children are raised by ultra-orthodox, fanatical weirdo's (<5% of the world population?). I grew up as a moderate Catholic and never regretted it. Sure some of their traditions and believes now look a bit silly in my eyes, but calling that kind of stuff child abuse is way over the top. Most Muslim families that I know raise their children as decent, moderate and caring people.
Quote from: Tom62 on July 27, 2011, 06:03:29 AM
It isn't child abuse, unless the children are raised by ultra-orthodox, fanatical weirdo's (<5% of the world population?). I grew up as a moderate Catholic and never regretted it. Sure some of their traditions and believes now look a bit silly in my eyes, but calling that kind of stuff child abuse is way over the top. Most Muslim families that I know raise their children as decent, moderate and caring people.
That's fair.
Sweetdeath's problem stems from the fact that her experiences of being around religious people is limited to say the least. Her xenophobia towards them is something which if she got over she would realise that her prejudices are based on fear.
Quote from: Abletony on July 27, 2011, 11:14:49 AM
Quote from: Tom62 on July 27, 2011, 06:03:29 AM
It isn't child abuse, unless the children are raised by ultra-orthodox, fanatical weirdo's (<5% of the world population?). I grew up as a moderate Catholic and never regretted it. Sure some of their traditions and believes now look a bit silly in my eyes, but calling that kind of stuff child abuse is way over the top. Most Muslim families that I know raise their children as decent, moderate and caring people.
That's fair.
Sweetdeath's problem stems from the fact that her experiences of being around religious people is limited to say the least. Her xenophobia towards them is something which if she got over she would realise that her prejudices are based on fear.
Personal comments/observation of this nature are unacceptable on this forum.
Quote from: Abletony on July 27, 2011, 11:14:49 AM
Her xenophobia towards them is something which if she got over she would realise that her prejudices are based on fear.
It isn't civil to label someone xenophobic; especially when doing so when someone has already attempted to discuss with you. She's already explained her position and you keep trying to force her into a box she doesn't fit in; that's why she quit bothering to respond to you.
Quote from: Abletony on July 27, 2011, 11:14:49 AM
Quote from: Tom62 on July 27, 2011, 06:03:29 AM
It isn't child abuse, unless the children are raised by ultra-orthodox, fanatical weirdo's (<5% of the world population?). I grew up as a moderate Catholic and never regretted it. Sure some of their traditions and believes now look a bit silly in my eyes, but calling that kind of stuff child abuse is way over the top. Most Muslim families that I know raise their children as decent, moderate and caring people.
That's fair.
Sweetdeath's problem stems from the fact that her experiences of being around religious people is limited to say the least. Her xenophobia towards them is something which if she got over she would realise that her prejudices are based on fear.
Can you please stop talking about me when you don't know a single thing about me? I would really appreciate if you didn't mention me in any of your posts, as i'm sure this is some form of harassment....
I really don't want to think of HAF as a hostile place.
Quote from: Sweetdeath on July 27, 2011, 03:36:45 PM
Quote from: Abletony on July 27, 2011, 11:14:49 AM
Quote from: Tom62 on July 27, 2011, 06:03:29 AM
It isn't child abuse, unless the children are raised by ultra-orthodox, fanatical weirdo's (<5% of the world population?). I grew up as a moderate Catholic and never regretted it. Sure some of their traditions and believes now look a bit silly in my eyes, but calling that kind of stuff child abuse is way over the top. Most Muslim families that I know raise their children as decent, moderate and caring people.
That's fair.
Sweetdeath's problem stems from the fact that her experiences of being around religious people is limited to say the least. Her xenophobia towards them is something which if she got over she would realise that her prejudices are based on fear.
Can you please stop talking about me when you don't know a single thing about me? I would really appreciate if you didn't mention me in any of your posts, as i'm sure this is some form of harassment....
I really don't want to think of HAF as a hostile place.
That was a bit creepy. Reminds me of a TV show where one character is talking to a second character about a third character. Then the third character says, "Hello!!!! I'm right here!!! I can hear every word you are saying!"
Quote from: Sweetdeath on July 27, 2011, 03:36:45 PM
Quote from: Abletony on July 27, 2011, 11:14:49 AM
Quote from: Tom62 on July 27, 2011, 06:03:29 AM
It isn't child abuse, unless the children are raised by ultra-orthodox, fanatical weirdo's (<5% of the world population?). I grew up as a moderate Catholic and never regretted it. Sure some of their traditions and believes now look a bit silly in my eyes, but calling that kind of stuff child abuse is way over the top. Most Muslim families that I know raise their children as decent, moderate and caring people.
That's fair.
Sweetdeath's problem stems from the fact that her experiences of being around religious people is limited to say the least. Her xenophobia towards them is something which if she got over she would realise that her prejudices are based on fear.
Can you please stop talking about me when you don't know a single thing about me? I would really appreciate if you didn't mention me in any of your posts, as i'm sure this is some form of harassment....
I really don't want to think of HAF as a hostile place.
don't worry he's banned for a week and restricted when/if he returns.
Thank you, Whitney.
Quote from: Tom62 on July 27, 2011, 06:03:29 AM
It isn't child abuse, unless the children are raised by ultra-orthodox, fanatical weirdo's (<5% of the world population?). I grew up as a moderate Catholic and never regretted it. Sure some of their traditions and believes now look a bit silly in my eyes, but calling that kind of stuff child abuse is way over the top. Most Muslim families that I know raise their children as decent, moderate and caring people.
That's fair. When someone doesn't understand or have experience with a certain culture they may come to conclusions that are based in mis information,fear and hearsay.
I've known a few non religious families that have beaten the living shit out of their kids. No God involved.
Quote from: Medusa on July 28, 2011, 02:04:14 AM
That's fair. When someone doesn't understand or have experience with a certain culture they may come to conclusions that are based in mis information,fear and hearsay.
I've known a few non religious families that have beaten the living shit out of their kids. No God involved.
I fully agree with you. Fact is that we judge other people too quickly. Regarding, whether it is OK to teach religion at school, it fully depends on the teaching methods used. If religion is "rammed down the throats" of the kids, then I'm against it. If the kids learn that there are more than just one religion and that it is OK for other people to have a different believe (or non-believe) then it can be a good thing. We don't want to raise our children with fear, misinformation, hearsay or hate.
I don't agree with the forced teaching of religion in schools, doubly so as R.E. was specifically about the Christian religion when I was in school.
Although to be fair Noah was putting the 2nd coat of varnish on the Ark when I was at school.
Wouldn't it make more sense to encourage debates on consideration, acceptance of people's thoughts and general morality.
That way young people can look at the concepts involved and make their own decisions.
Quote from: Tom62 on July 28, 2011, 06:40:12 AM
Quote from: Medusa on July 28, 2011, 02:04:14 AM
That's fair. When someone doesn't understand or have experience with a certain culture they may come to conclusions that are based in mis information,fear and hearsay.
I've known a few non religious families that have beaten the living shit out of their kids. No God involved.
I fully agree with you. Fact is that we judge other people too quickly. Regarding, whether it is OK to teach religion at school, it fully depends on the teaching methods used. If religion is "rammed down the throats" of the kids, then I'm against it. If the kids learn that there are more than just one religion and that it is OK for other people to have a different believe (or non-believe) then it can be a good thing. We don't want to raise our children with fear, misinformation, hearsay or hate.
I think teaching religion in school is fine ONLY, but only if it is taught as fiction, or a mythology, along side Greek and Norse.
The problem is, too many people strongly believe in such ridiculous tales like Noah's Ark, and Adam and Eve to be true, historical facts.
I really love Homer's Odyssey, but I know it didn't happen in real life.
We have to be careful of ideas like removing religion from schools completely; some people would take that too far. I think public schools should be no place to teach religious dogma, and should be restricted from doing so. However, religion cannot be completely removed from school curriculum. The various religions form the vast majority of world history, and without an understanding of their beliefs, students would have no idea why certain things have happened in the past.
I have no beef with religious schools. If parents want their children to go to a church school, I won't stop them. Generally there is an enormous tuition they have to pay, and if they wish to pay it, who cares? The thing I have noticed with the Catholic high schools in our community is that they have overwhelmingly white student bodies. I am happy, thankful and satisfied with my kid's public education. They both attended an large urban high school, with a diverse population...... the very same diverse population they will have to deal with in real life. I don't think you can get that in an exclusive religious high school.
By the way, my kids both attend a Catholic college, and neither are religious. They love it, and do not feel pressured. They have to take a few courses on religion, but they knew that going in. I think they are better for it.
I haven't got a problem with schools teaching religion, what i DO have a big problem with is enforced teaching of religion.
When I was at school R.E was a mandatory subject.
I don't have a problem with schools teaching religion, either, in the way my high school did. They offered a mythology class. A person was not forced to take that class. It was one way of fulfilling a requirement, and there were several other classes available for this. They taught mainly Greek and Roman mythology, but also branched out a little into a couple other ancients, such as Egyptian and Sumerian. They were very careful not to include references to any mythology that might still be a religion, such as Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, etc. They managed not to show the connections between Sumerian, Egyptian, and Judiasm. The mythologies they taught are commonly thought of as dead religions. I would have no problem including even the modern religions if taught from the perspective of mythology.
The actual truth is this. Our schools can barely handle the three R's let alone adding religion as a class. Most schools cut back on all arts classes as it is. And also..most religious schools seem to do better academically then public schools. I am assuming it's the money and the student to teacher ratio. I just want my kid (when I adopt one) to learn to read and write and add in class. Anything else I can teach at home.
Since atheism led to the slaughter of MILLIONS in the 20th century, maybe atheism should stay out of the schools as well, no?
Quote from: Black36 on August 20, 2011, 03:47:48 PM
Since atheism led to the slaughter of MILLIONS in the 20th century, maybe atheism should stay out of the schools as well, no?
What about lacking a belief in god caused the slaughter of millions?
But unlike some of you religious folks; I haven't heard any atheists suggesting that we utilize classrooms to indoctrinate children into nonbeleif so your point is moot and unnecessarily abrasive.
Quote from: Black36 on August 20, 2011, 03:47:48 PM
Since atheism led to the slaughter of MILLIONS in the 20th century, maybe atheism should stay out of the schools as well, no?
LOL! Where are you getting your misinformation from?
Quote from: Black36 on August 20, 2011, 03:47:48 PM
Since atheism led to the slaughter of MILLIONS in the 20th century, maybe atheism should stay out of the schools as well, no?
This is the point where I stop even attempting to take anything you say seriously.
Quote from: Whitney on August 20, 2011, 04:07:01 PM
I haven't heard any atheists suggesting that we utilize classrooms to indoctrinate children into nonbeleif so your point is moot and unnecessarily abrasive.
I tried it but the scripture teacher made me go stand in the hall.
Quote from: Black36Since atheism led to the slaughter of MILLIONS in the 20th century, maybe atheism should stay out of the schools as well, no?
This is self-delusion of a particularly high order. I hereby coin a new term to describe such detachment from reality:
godthink.
Quote from: OldGit on August 20, 2011, 06:31:09 PM
This is self-delusion of a particularly high order. I hereby coin a new term to describe such detachment from reality: godthink.
3think?
Godthink?
I think I like this term. *strokes imaginary beard*