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Lying:

Started by Bad Penny II, May 03, 2018, 02:00:18 PM

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Siz

Quote from: billy rubin on January 04, 2020, 12:27:30 PM
Quote from: Siz on January 04, 2020, 12:21:41 PM
Quote from: billy rubin on January 04, 2020, 09:14:17 AM
Quote from: Siz on January 04, 2020, 01:41:55 AM

Difficult for you, evidently (though not sure why, as a self-declared nihilist...???)
It's all pretty mundane and straightforward from where I'm sitting, Maybe I'm doing nihilism all wrong?! ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

yes. if you re a nihilist, siz. you re doing it wrong.
Righto!

I don't even know why you introduced nihilism into this thread. It doesn't help the defense of your compulsion to tell the truth in the face of a person's suffering. The fact your compulsion exists obviates your nihilism - things DO have meaning for you. Evidently, very strong meaning for you to take such a rigid stance on lying.

siz, if you dont like the anzwerz, dont azk the questions.
Indeed! Guess I've learned my lesson, then. Carry on.

When one sleeps on the floor one need not worry about falling out of bed - Anton LaVey

The universe is a cold, uncaring void. The key to happiness isn't a search for meaning, it's to just keep yourself busy with unimportant nonsense, and eventually you'll be dead!

Bad Penny II

Quote from: billy rubin on January 04, 2020, 12:26:22 PM
ah

i understand, penny.

yes. my beliefs are meaningless. my life is meaningless. the universe is meaningless. your values and life is equally withou purpose. so all our hopes, dreams, and beliefs are ultimately futile. in that sense, they are not real, although they certainly come with emotions, personal valuez, and a lifetime of inveztment.

if you have so.e transcendent knowledge of meaning in your life beyond the swirling moleculez that temporarily cluster together at your keyboard, then i am wrong.

so when i say that on good dayz my system of values seems almost real, i say that it appears to have meaning. so long as i dont think about it too much, or too carefully, that state holds. but not for very long.

Thanks Holden but we all already knew that.
We're not forever, nothing is.
I met a girl and we bonded.
I was there when our daughters were born,
and all that happened tween then and now.
Forever is a word for fairy stories
I'll die, my love will die our children will die
But before we do we will live,
it's all the meaning we animals need.
Take my advice, don't listen to me.

xSilverPhinx

Quote from: billy rubin on January 03, 2020, 03:11:32 PM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on January 03, 2020, 02:46:08 PM
Pardon my asking, billy rubin, but did you ever have to care for someone with severe dementia or have someone close to you afflicted with such a disease?

my grandfather spent his lazt years asking the woman in bed with him if she waz hiz wife. she explained to him each time that she had been his wife for fifty years. i have 25 percent of his chromosomez and expect to have a one in four chance of endi g up the same way.  i have never had to care for anyone personally and would find dealing with truth and honezty in the relationship as the most important mark of compassion and respect i can imagine.

Quote
You've compared lying to a dementia patient to a person receiving a fatal diagnosis (I'm assuming of a sound mind) more than once, and treat them the same, but they are not the same, for moral and practical reasons.

tbey are exactly the zame. both acts dehumanize another person.

Quote
Another difficult scenario: would you tell a very young child that their parents will one day be dead/gone forever? I can't think of anything a young one could hear that would be more distressful and could have lasting emotional implications in some children. Would you put them through that before they are a little older and more mature so you could feel better about yourself because you didn't withhold the truth? Serious question.

i have never lied to a child, which i regard az an act of ultimate betrayal of care and rezponsibility.  i have five children, and have never lied to tbem at any time, on any subject. two are now adults, and all are apparently normal.

silver, would you betray tbe trust of a child in order to go home and feel better about yourself, knowing that forcing the child to grow up in a lie waz lezz important than you getting a goox nights sleep by avoiding a very difficult part of genuine care and nurture?

this is abzolutely not an easy question, and theres no way being honezt is an eazy tbing. deception is always easy, but in my mibd it is alwayz wrong. i think the answer when confronted with tbe dilemma is to look for a better way.

There's a lot more that goes into developing Alzheimer's or not than simply the genes you carry, so it's not 25% if you have a grandfather afflicted with the disease. ;) But anyway...

You see, that's the thing. You talk of genuine care and nurture, I just don't see that happening by telling, say, a three year old that their parents are one day going to be gone forever. There's a time and level of maturity for receiving that information, and I strongly feel that at three years old is not that time. I just can't tell such a child something that would cause them so much distress just because I want to uphold my principles. It's not about looking inward at my own feelings of integrity and moral consistency...it's about looking outward, at the other.

My parents lied to me about many things when I was growing up and I turned out alright in the sense that I don't harbor any ill feelings towards them for protecting me from the truth until I was older, or feeding wild stories into my blossoming imagination. If anything I can say it made me think more critically. Even though they did misrepresent the truth sometimes, my default is still to believe what they tell me as true, there are no lingering trust issues because of those lies.

I am what survives if it's slain - Zack Hemsey


xSilverPhinx

Um...yeah...like Siz I don't know where you're going with the nihilism thing or what you want to prove. Do you mean meaningless=ultimately inconsequential? :notsure:
I am what survives if it's slain - Zack Hemsey


billy rubin

well, silver, we all raise our kids by trying to transfer the things we feel important. in my own caze, i scaled discuzzionz of zubjectz to the age level of my kids when the discussion took place. i didnt explain hormones to  a three year old asking where he came from, for instance. but if he asked, he got an anatomically correct version of the ztory with az much detail az he could understand.

my own kids are quite comfortable with death. i dont recall the subject of their own or their parents ever coming up, but similar discussionz certainly took place. perhapz that might make some family relationzhipz anxious, but in my own family my children grew up with complete trust tbat they were never lied to, and a lack of fear  of thi gs like death becauze nothing was hidden from them. tbeyve been going to and speaking on their own in funeralz since they were under six years old.

my kids have turned out great. they have alwayz been secure in the knowlsdge that tbere is someone who they can trust completely, and it zhows in tbe frank and honest ways that they deal with each other and with other people.

i wouldnt worry about nihilism. its a separate discussion. siz asserted that my moral syztem waz meaninglesz, and i pointed out that hiz own waz no different. he's still procezsing that.


"I cannot understand the popularity of that kind of music, which is based on repetition. In a civilized society, things don't need to be said more than three times."

Bad Penny II

Quote from: billy rubin on January 04, 2020, 03:55:13 PM
my kids have turned out great. they have alwayz been secure in the knowlsdge that tbere is someone who they can trust completely, and it zhows in tbe frank and honest ways that they deal with each other and with other people.

i wouldnt worry about nihilism. its a separate discussion. siz asserted that my moral syztem waz meaninglesz, and i pointed out that hiz own waz no different. he's still procezsing that.

I hope you're not being as self serving in your assessment of your kids as in your measure of Siz.
Take my advice, don't listen to me.

Siz

Quote from: billy rubin on January 04, 2020, 03:55:13 PM
well, silver, we all raise our kids by trying to transfer the things we feel important. in my own caze, i scaled discuzzionz of zubjectz to the age level of my kids when the discussion took place. i didnt explain hormones to  a three year old asking where he came from, for instance. but if he asked, he got an anatomically correct version of the ztory with az much detail az he could understand.

my own kids are quite comfortable with death. i dont recall the subject of their own or their parents ever coming up, but similar discussionz certainly took place. perhapz that might make some family relationzhipz anxious, but in my own family my children grew up with complete trust tbat they were never lied to, and a lack of fear  of thi gs like death becauze nothing was hidden from them. tbeyve been going to and speaking on their own in funeralz since they were under six years old.

my kids have turned out great. they have alwayz been secure in the knowlsdge that tbere is someone who they can trust completely, and it zhows in tbe frank and honest ways that they deal with each other and with other people.

i wouldnt worry about nihilism. its a separate discussion. siz asserted that my moral syztem waz meaninglesz, and i pointed out that hiz own waz no different. he's still procezsing that.
Yep, still processing my moral fortitude. That's me!

When one sleeps on the floor one need not worry about falling out of bed - Anton LaVey

The universe is a cold, uncaring void. The key to happiness isn't a search for meaning, it's to just keep yourself busy with unimportant nonsense, and eventually you'll be dead!

billy rubin

Quote from: Bad Penny II on January 04, 2020, 04:19:25 PM
Quote from: billy rubin on January 04, 2020, 03:55:13 PM
my kids have turned out great. they have alwayz been secure in the knowlsdge that tbere is someone who they can trust completely, and it zhows in tbe frank and honest ways that they deal with each other and with other people.

i wouldnt worry about nihilism. its a separate discussion. siz asserted that my moral syztem waz meaninglesz, and i pointed out that hiz own waz no different. he's still procezsing that.

I hope you're not being as self serving in your assessment of your kids as in your measure of Siz.

i stand by what i said. siz can speak for himself.


"I cannot understand the popularity of that kind of music, which is based on repetition. In a civilized society, things don't need to be said more than three times."

Siz

Quote from: billy rubin on January 04, 2020, 05:44:18 PM
Quote from: Bad Penny II on January 04, 2020, 04:19:25 PM
Quote from: billy rubin on January 04, 2020, 03:55:13 PM
my kids have turned out great. they have alwayz been secure in the knowlsdge that tbere is someone who they can trust completely, and it zhows in tbe frank and honest ways that they deal with each other and with other people.

i wouldnt worry about nihilism. its a separate discussion. siz asserted that my moral syztem waz meaninglesz, and i pointed out that hiz own waz no different. he's still procezsing that.

I hope you're not being as self serving in your assessment of your kids as in your measure of Siz.

i stand by what i said. siz can speak for himself.
...if he was disposed to defend a rather bent misrepresentation.

Ironic, really, given the title of the thread....

When one sleeps on the floor one need not worry about falling out of bed - Anton LaVey

The universe is a cold, uncaring void. The key to happiness isn't a search for meaning, it's to just keep yourself busy with unimportant nonsense, and eventually you'll be dead!

billy rubin

well, siz, you refused to explain why your moral syztem was more meaningful than mine when i asked you.

that invitation still stands.

if you cant, or wont, then i dont see that you have any reason to complain about misreprezentation.

go for it. siz. my univerze has no meaning, but yours does.

tell us why.

and if i have  misrepresented you zomewhere, i apologize. but unless you explain yourself its likely to happen again.


"I cannot understand the popularity of that kind of music, which is based on repetition. In a civilized society, things don't need to be said more than three times."

Siz

Quote from: billy rubin on January 04, 2020, 07:01:25 PM
well, siz, you refused to explain why your moral syztem was more meaningful than mine when i asked you.

that invitation still stands.

if you cant, or wont, then i dont see that you have any reason to complain about misreprezentation.

go for it. siz. my univerze has no meaning, but yours does.

tell us why.

and if i have  misrepresented you zomewhere, i apologize. but unless you explain yourself its likely to happen again.

I'm an amoralist. A moral nihilist, if you will. Not sure where you got the idea that I felt I held moral superiority... Have you read my signature?
You may proudly call yourself unimportant nonsense.

When one sleeps on the floor one need not worry about falling out of bed - Anton LaVey

The universe is a cold, uncaring void. The key to happiness isn't a search for meaning, it's to just keep yourself busy with unimportant nonsense, and eventually you'll be dead!

billy rubin

if thats true, siz, then the criticisms you levelled at me earlier were falze.

"nasty piece of work. " i think waz one?

where do you get the authority to call anyone or anything "nasty?"

if youre merely exprezsing a personal preference. then of course you have every right to do so.

but personally. i prefer the boyzenberry over any ordinary jam.






"I cannot understand the popularity of that kind of music, which is based on repetition. In a civilized society, things don't need to be said more than three times."

Siz

#72
Quote from: billy rubin on January 04, 2020, 07:34:22 PM
if thats true, siz, then the criticisms you levelled at me earlier were falze.

"nasty piece of work. " i think waz one?

where do you get the authority to call anyone or anything "nasty?"

if youre merely exprezsing a personal preference. then of course you have every right to do so.

but personally. i prefer the boyzenberry over any ordinary jam.
The Golden Rule determines 'nasty' in my mind... when it suits me.

Thick-cut orange marmalade for me.

When one sleeps on the floor one need not worry about falling out of bed - Anton LaVey

The universe is a cold, uncaring void. The key to happiness isn't a search for meaning, it's to just keep yourself busy with unimportant nonsense, and eventually you'll be dead!

Recusant

Since meaning is something created by sentient beings (having no independent existence as far as we can tell) then things that have meaning to us have as much meaning as anything in the universe. Our lives have meaning. Our beliefs have meaning, etc.

Invoking the fact that as far as we know meaning doesn't exist independently of us does not change that. Meaningfulness exists as a (human) thing, regardless of whether the universe as a whole "ultimately" has meaning, or whether there are any other sentient beings that have the concept of meaning. The "ultimate" Big Picture is largely irrelevant in this context, and does not in any way detract from meaningfulness.
"Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I hold in veneration — courage, clear thinking, honesty, fairness, and above all, love of the truth."
— H. L. Mencken


Ecurb Noselrub

Yeah, Betelgeuse is about to go supernova, but that is meaningless and irrelevant to me.  On the other hand, the fact that I'm drinking vodka right now is extremely important.