Happy Atheist Forum

Human Nature:

Rift Zone

  • **
  • 364
  • https://rift.zone
Human Nature:
« on: October 29, 2019, 08:31:40 PM »
Who are we? Where did we -come from? Where are we going? Why are we here? What’s life all about???  These are among the “core questions of humanity”, for lack of a better term. Being curious about the world around us is an innate trait, but we should note these inquiries are taken a lot more seriously than other inquiries. It could be argued we would naturally be even more curious about things that applied to our existence, but even then we can see these core questions have a deeper grasp on humanity than even particularly intriguing trivia. Knowledge pertaining to our existence and relation to the universe touches the depths of our beings. It’s far more than intellectual musings over awe inspiring and wonderful things found in the universe. Those inquiries involve something deep within us.  That we feel sensations reverberate throughout our beings when we touch upon such things only provides a hint of how deeply involved our understandings are with the rest of our beings.  The phenomenon of epiphany provides another hint: mere conscious considerations impact far more of our beings than consciousness.  Consciousness is only marginally involved with our relationship to such things; most of what’s going on there involves subconsciousness.

   Those “core questions” originate within subconsciousness.  This is fairly evident given the innate origins of our curiosities.  What is less event to us is what we do with those answers.   Subconsciousness compels our consciousness to gain some answers pertaining to how and where we fit into the world essentially to provide context, meaning, and direction to existence. Important to note we don’t do that merely to satisfy some intellectual curiosities!  The more we investigate it the more it becomes clear those answers go straight back to subconsciousness where they effectively serve as foundation from which we largely derive our identities, philosophies, moralities, world views, ways of being, approach to existence… So much of what and how we are can be traced back to what we believe.  This may seem to be a rather curious conclusion until you take an honest look at humanity, at which point all there is to find is overwhelming evidence. Take the religiously devout for instance, they are effectively literal manifestations of their belief structure in a profusion of ways. Atheists are no different; the way they engage existence is a direct result of what they make of it. We all look into the universe to gain understanding of our relationship to it, then we live through what we find; our process of growing includes working that in. This is how humanity operates; this fact is thoroughly established on this site.

   Fair to say most of us are familiar with the properties of consciousness, after all we dwell there all the time. Subconsciousness, however, mostly escapes us so it might be worthy to review some its properties. First of all, the neocortex part of the brain is the pride of humanity; it amounts to our upper and frontal lobes which are responsible for many of our most treasured traits: advanced, abstract, rational, analytical thought, planning, language, and so much more that makes us what we are and enables what we have. Deeper within are the limbic regions of the brain, which are responsible for our feelings, emotionalism, behavior, decision making, loyalty, and other things. Those regions and functions more or less draw the line between consciousness and subconsciousness. It implies we mostly do our thinking in consciousness, but mostly act from subconsciousness –which is precisely what works coming out of neuroscience, cognition, and related fields amount to.  Jonathan Haidt’s story of a man riding an elephant and Michael Gazzaniga’s “interpreter module” of the brain describe exactly that, while leadership consultant Simon Sinek’s “Golden Circle” is derived from the insight. Mostly operating from a place that has no capacity for language is an exceptionally pertinent dynamic; its impact on our world is hard to understate.

   “The first principal is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool” -Feynman   That quote does not apply to eminent physicists alone.   In fact, it’s likely to apply to us here and now, and understanding why is the key to saving the world.  The reason it applies is the above ultimately adds up to spirituality is a genuine, sincere, fundamental trait of humanity. Defined, spirituality is the predisposition to understand and identify oneself with their origin and relation to the universe.  Spirituality is about relationship, and that’s how it occurs to humanity, we know it through our conscious relationship to it. Thus, when we ask humanity what spirituality is we should expect to see the answers converge as they do upon a relation to their deity, relation to universe, relation to family/ancestors, a sense of morality/philosophy, alignment with a greater thing/purpose… The type of relationship described is often multifaceted and is rather profound, addressing the very nature of their beings, the nature of the universe, the nature of our relationship to universe, as well as how it informs them to be worthy of their place… Arguably, the definition offered above perfectly captures both what humanity has been trying to express all along, irrespective of faith, as well as properly identifying it to be a legitimate demonstrable trait of humanity. Unfortunately, it seems the vast majority of humanity thinks spirituality is the exclusive domain of religion, and that’s usually where the conflict expected above arises.  Atheists tend to see spirituality as purely a construct of religion (independent of, and completely irrelevant to them), while the religious tend to think there’s virtually no distinction between religious faith and spirituality.  However, the properties of humanity rather definitively declare it to be something entirely different, as investigation reveals spirituality to be a fundamental human trait alone. This of course demotes religion to merely a form of “spiritual path” -a collection of answers and considerations meant to fulfill the requirements spirituality places upon us.  The truth is the religious are no more *spiritual* than atheists are; atheists may balk at the term and notion, but they too have looked into the universe to find their place in it, and have then used that information to inform them of their nature and ways of being, as all spiritual beings do; whether or not deity is involved with one’s spirituality is excessively inconsequential to its presence.  [Please note: “spiritual” is taken only to mean “of or pertaining to spirituality”, as defined above. There are no other connotations. Cartesian dualism, for instance, never had any direct association with spirituality. As we now know, spirituality is a fundamental human trait, exclusively. Dualist realms, gods, and all other answers gained through/inspired by spirituality amount to a spiritual path or tenets thereof.]

   Feynman also mentioned how clever ‘mother nature’ is, often more clever than we are.  Let’s hope we’re exceptionally clever today because we’re probably going to need to outsmart ourselves to know how to save the world.   Spirituality is primarily a subconscious phenomenon.   It originates in subconsciousness, compels consciousness to do some research on the universe/world around us for some info on it and our place within.   Then subconsciousness takes our research and incorporates those understandings into our beings such that we operate through them by default, often without further consideration.   In fact, further consideration is often unwelcome.   Once we’ve settled on some understandings it becomes part of us, part of our being, and we’re not usually keen on having our beings challenged.   Reviewing where certain aspects of our being lie provides some insight as to why that is.   World view/belief structure/spiritual path is born of subconscious urging so it ultimately residing subconsciousness is perfectly reasonable; however, there are consequences to that: it places world view/belief structure/spiritual path in close proximity to our feelings, emotionalism, behavior, decision making, and loyalty while making those understandings distant from language, logic, advanced, abstract, rational, analytical thought.   The implications of those consequences more or less define humanity, and our world -more on that later.   But first, about being clever: do we have consensus here?   Do you find yourself agreeing with this assessment?   Do you see these dynamics operating within human psyche and our systems?  If not, why not?   Could it be a matter brevity?   Fortunately, this site endeavors to cover the depth and breadth of spirituality and its implications; spirituality, how it interacts with human psyche, and how they contribute to the state of our world will be fully explained here.   However, there may be even greater reasons to not agree here, and they have everything to do with world view.   

   What “spirituality” is to you is necessarily tied to your spirituality (as explained here), and this content challenges how most of humanity understands the universe/world/ourselves to be.  It follows difference of opinion is going to amount to distinctions within world view, the domain of spirituality.   And again, these understandings reside in our subconscious minds, essentially a place that has no capacity for language and is not concerned with rational analytics, yet drives emotionalism, loyalty, behavior, decision making, among other things.   Not surprising the way psyche usually deals with conflict to world view is to deem the conflict to our own understandings outright wrong then simply brush them off with zero sincere consideration.  It doesn’t occur to us in that manner, however; consciously we know the conflict is just plain wrong, the depths of our beings know it to be so… our consciousness may not fully understand it but our subconscious somehow has it figured out and simply knows better.  We probably should dig deeper into what our beings are settled on, however.  It’s not entirely uncommon for our beings to convinced of things that have negligible support and justification (it can range into the utterly ridiculous at times, fact checking is the job of other areas of our being).  In fact, with some awareness of this dynamic, it shouldn’t be too hard to recognize subconsciousness defending its own beliefs in our daily lives, even when faced with a stronger stance, utilizing the tools it has: emotionalism, loyalty, behavior…   It’s pretty keen on doing what it it has to do to protect itself, leaving consciousness to rationalize it as best as it can, which is the precise function of the “interpreter module of the brain”(as described by Michael Gazzaniga, one of the leading researchers in cognitive neuroscience) -roughly, to make what goes on in our subconsciousness comprehensible and justified to our consciousness.  It is the nature of humanity to behave this way.  This is the sentient creature’s version of instinct, and we are subject to it just as other creatures are subject to their instinct.  It would be reasonable to assume something akin to our consciousness is somehow hardwired to our beings while spirituality gets processed through some type of interface, but this is not the case at all; spirituality is hardwired to our beings, while our consciousness operates on an interface.
In the last few millennia we have made the most astonishing and unexpected discoveries about the Cosmos and our place within it, explorations that are exhilarating to consider. They remind us that humans have evolved to wonder, that understanding is a joy, that knowledge is prerequisite to survival.   -Carl Sagan

xSilverPhinx

  • Non Dvcor
  • *****
  • 19579
  • Gender: Female
  • I Spy With My Googly Eyes...JOY! IAGO!
Re: Human Nature:
« Reply #1 on: October 29, 2019, 10:09:13 PM »
Déjà vu...
I am what survives if it's slain - Zack Hemsey


Icarus

  • The wise one.
  • *****
  • 6727
  • Gender: Male
Re: Human Nature:
« Reply #2 on: October 30, 2019, 12:13:43 AM »
RZ something must have gone wrong with my hard wiring because spirituality is not even in the same world as my thought processes' either consciously or subliminally.

I might  think about the elastic modulus of a rubber band or a piece of aluminum of some alloy or other, the mass  moment of inertia of a two by four and other things for which I have reliable evidence.   That is worldly stuff that actually has some usefulness in the  real world.  Spirituality is a bit uncertain....no a lot uncertain. It is not subject to logical, physical or mathematical analysis, say nothing of proofs of any kind.  The physical world I can deal with.  The spiritual world is for dreamers, fiction writers, or prosperity preachers. 


xSilverPhinx

  • Non Dvcor
  • *****
  • 19579
  • Gender: Female
  • I Spy With My Googly Eyes...JOY! IAGO!
Re: Human Nature:
« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2019, 01:17:35 AM »
RZ something must have gone wrong with my hard wiring because spirituality is not even in the same world as my thought processes' either consciously or subliminally.

I might  think about the elastic modulus of a rubber band or a piece of aluminum of some alloy or other, the mass  moment of inertia of a two by four and other things for which I have reliable evidence.   That is worldly stuff that actually has some usefulness in the  real world.  Spirituality is a bit uncertain....no a lot uncertain. It is not subject to logical, physical or mathematical analysis, say nothing of proofs of any kind.  The physical world I can deal with.  The spiritual world is for dreamers, fiction writers, or prosperity preachers.

I'm still trying to understand exactly what RZ is going on about when he talks about the conscious and subconscious mind and how they pertain to "spirituality".  ::)

There's a lot about those 'two minds' we don't know, and yet he seems to have it all figured out. ::)::)::) However, reading the wall of text a couple of times, it just seems like he's taken a metaphorical bag called The Subconscious Mind and put a bunch of behaviours, personality structures, beliefs and emotions into it and calls it Spirituality. He goes on to say these attributes he lumped together subliminally inform our conscious minds, from the primitive limbic system up to the neocortex, where conscious thoughts reside (debatable, he's leaving out important deep-brain structures such as the thalamus).

Even though it's a wall of text, it all seems very superficial with an annoying mix of sciency sounding words with pure speculation. Even 'Subconscious' reeks of New Age terminology....

Perhaps that odd choice of word is what's making his words difficult to swallow.

Rift Zone, please expand on what you mean exactly by 'Subconscious'.

I am what survives if it's slain - Zack Hemsey


Rift Zone

  • **
  • 364
  • https://rift.zone
Re: Human Nature:
« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2019, 04:17:32 AM »
Déjà vu...
Yea, with any luck, I'm getting better at articulating it.

RZ something must have gone wrong with my hard wiring because spirituality is not even in the same world as my thought processes' either consciously or subliminally.

I might  think about the elastic modulus of a rubber band or a piece of aluminum of some alloy or other, the mass  moment of inertia of a two by four and other things for which I have reliable evidence.   That is worldly stuff that actually has some usefulness in the  real world.  Spirituality is a bit uncertain....no a lot uncertain. It is not subject to logical, physical or mathematical analysis, say nothing of proofs of any kind.  The physical world I can deal with.  The spiritual world is for dreamers, fiction writers, or prosperity preachers.
Irrespective of what those dynamics are called, everything about humanity and our world supports the assessment.   I mean, do you mean to deny such dynamics exist within humanity?   Also, that's only part of the story, having some awareness of those dynamics.   The rest of it goes on psychoanalyze abrahamic religion and plug that world view into human spirituality.   With that, it takes the more abstract conversation above and shows it to clearly operate in our psyches and world.  ...Which goes on to show why our world is in such poor shape.   
I'm an astrophysicist, remember.   I don't do fiction.  ;D


I'm still trying to understand exactly what RZ is going on about when he talks about the conscious and subconscious mind and how they pertain to "spirituality".  ::)

There's a lot about those 'two minds' we don't know, and yet he seems to have it all figured out. ::)::)::) However, reading the wall of text a couple of times, it just seems like he's taken a metaphorical bag called The Subconscious Mind and put a bunch of behaviours, personality structures, beliefs and emotions into it and calls it Spirituality. He goes on to say these attributes he lumped together subliminally inform our conscious minds, from the primitive limbic system up to the neocortex, where conscious thoughts reside (debatable, he's leaving out important deep-brain structures such as the thalamus).

Even though it's a wall of text, it all seems very superficial with an annoying mix of sciency sounding words with pure speculation. Even 'Subconscious' reeks of New Age terminology....

Perhaps that odd choice of word is what's making his words difficult to swallow.

Rift Zone, please expand on what you mean exactly by 'Subconscious'.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24adApYh0yc
It's what you dont have active control of. 
Seems that way, does it ?  You aware of any thing at all found within our world that contests this?  Any reasons why this is wrong?  or does it just seem that way to you?    You know it was talking about you, right?   and I intend to demonstrate it.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2019, 04:29:19 AM by Rift Zone »
In the last few millennia we have made the most astonishing and unexpected discoveries about the Cosmos and our place within it, explorations that are exhilarating to consider. They remind us that humans have evolved to wonder, that understanding is a joy, that knowledge is prerequisite to survival.   -Carl Sagan

xSilverPhinx

  • Non Dvcor
  • *****
  • 19579
  • Gender: Female
  • I Spy With My Googly Eyes...JOY! IAGO!
Re: Human Nature:
« Reply #5 on: October 30, 2019, 03:47:18 PM »
Are you still trying to write a book on the subject? If so, who is your audience? I ask because your ideas are all over the place, but you probably already know that.

If you're trying to win over the scientific community who actually study consciousness and the neuroscience of spirituality, you would have to make some serious revisions and add a whole lot of actual substance/evidence, not just what your intuition tells you is right. And you would have to study. A lot. My guess is this is not the audience you're writing for.

If you're writing for laypeople then you might get some to agree with you. There's a lot of weird stuff floating around out there and you use some sciencey-sounding words and ideas to scaffold your own, but you take huge interpretative leaps that leave the whole thing coming off as New Agey. You write a lot but don't actually delve deep into the subject. I wouldn't put it in the same bag as Deepak Chopra's material because his is much worse, but it's in the same...neighborhood.

Quote
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24adApYh0yc
It's what you dont have active control of.
Seems that way, does it ?  You aware of any thing at all found within our world that contests this?  Any reasons why this is wrong?  or does it just seem that way to you?    You know it was talking about you, right?   and I intend to demonstrate it.


I'll check out those links later, I'm in a lab right now (and in fact, should be doing more productive things) but for now I'll just say that it's actually rare for neuroscientists to use the word 'subconscious'. Like I said before, it reeks of New Age terminology, or is a word you would find staining the pages of self-help books. It is not something commonly found in neuroscience papers, where people tend to use 'unconscious' instead.

But anyway, are you sure there isn't a better definition out there?  ::) How do you actually draw a line between the subconscious/unconscious mind and the conscious one?

Since conscious is a different side of the same coin it helps to define that phenomenon as well. What is consciousness?! Is it a brain region? Is it a brain artifact? What causes it and where can it be found?

Is spirituality meaningful in people's lives? If so, there could be a link between the emotions felt and memories with the brain's language centers in the neocortex. Are there abstract concepts involved? What separates spirituality from emotions, such as feelings of awe and of being in the world? As for feelings of being in the world, wouldn't that involve consciousness?

I need a better definition from you. One with more depth.
I am what survives if it's slain - Zack Hemsey


Rift Zone

  • **
  • 364
  • https://rift.zone
Re: Human Nature:
« Reply #6 on: October 30, 2019, 05:26:07 PM »
Are you still trying to write a book on the subject? If so, who is your audience? I ask because your ideas are all over the place, but you probably already know that.
The book was conceived to initiate this entire endeavor: NATURE, Nature Aligned To Unequivocally Rejuvenate Earth.  Well, it occurred to me I had all I need to get this off the ground without the book, so now my website is how I intend to get this out there.   Everyone is my audience.  This is how humanity operates, it's pertinent to how this world works and is.   Though, the ones I'm gonna reach are the ones who are still piecing together their place in the universe...   The students of the world kinda know the system is screwing them over, they want answers, they want good leaders, they want to take care of this mess and I intend to give them the opportunity.   So this is way grassroots involving university campuses, indy media, social media...or at least will be in a couple weeks when I have my website satisfactory.  oh, and I'll be talking to physics students too.   I'll be sure to share Nova (my physics theory, that is more comprehensive and aligns with observation better than prevailing theory) with them too.   As well as this; wrote it out of some intimate awareness of the environment, you see:
Spoiler: ShowHide
We have linear thinkers among us… (2D) They process information much like a formal logical structure: by line item. They’re fully capable of coming to know complicated systems, thus forming their 2D picture, but it is a somewhat tedious process and things do get lost in translation.

The bright people of the world are the “systems thinkers”, 3D. They take in more than a line item at time. They’re able to see how entire systems work, understanding the nuances at play. More so than just a "picture", they can see into it and readily understand the nature of the system in fundamental ways.

There are also 4Ds; it’s simulation capacity. Are you familiar with Fermat's Last Theorem? Euler's Identity, and the profusion of his works? Gauss? How about Relativity? Einstein's "thought experiments" were physics simulations, literally! -pretty good ones. All of those things and most other profound innovations humanity has produced throughout the ages came from 4Ds. Operating within existing parameters will keep you there. Shit like that never pops out an equation. They have to know it, they have to understand it; they saw that shit: how it works, interacts, evolves, relates, they saw it. In very pure and intimate ways, they saw it; they generated it. Of course, the vast majority of humans can draw up and run scenarios in their minds, but only these guys are doing it in strict accordance to mathematical and physical law. The world's best computers are still organic; we're quantum, of course we're gonna smoke chips for a good while longer. 4Ds are what humanity calls genius; that's what it is, that's how it works.

The linear scale of IQ is fairly informative for 2 and 3Ds, however, that type of classification quickly breaks down concerning 4Ds. The most you can really distinguish between 4Ds is how it manifests. The path it takes could amount to intimate command of mathematical equations. -Stephen Hawking was this type of genius; his gift was manipulating equations. He worked as a physicist but his gift was more mathematical in nature. There are also those with excellent command of mathematical structure; they’re walking 3blue1brown youtube channels: translating mathematical expression into mathematical structure, that they can then fuck with. -Here is where we find the likes of Fermat, Gauss, Euler… Humanity’s math is symbolism, those guys work with the real thing! Closely related to mathematical structure but still distinct enough to warrant its own category is physical structure. Here are our pros with reconciling observation with mathematics: Einstein, Feynman, Faraday… Symphonic would be another path, as would Michelangelo type artistry. There are many paths. Newton stands as one of the bright ones of that crowd only because his gift manifested in both mathematical and structural ways, enabling him to cross reference.
Na, they're not all over the place at all.  Familiar with the psychologies of religion, the teachings of culture, that cater to quick and poorly reasoned adoption of spiritual path and deflection of scrutiny of their path?   Ya know, polarization, sensationalism...   for one, funny how all that shit engages more of our non-active-control-areas-of-being, and how that's the exact same psychological shit at play within trump supporters, climate deniers...    Those people learned how to behave that way in sunday school..  see how this is going?

If you're trying to win over the scientific community who actually study consciousness and the neuroscience of spirituality, you would have to make some serious revisions and add a whole lot of actual substance/evidence, not just what your intuition tells you is right. And you would have to study. A lot. My guess is this is not the audience you're writing for.
I'm not a medical or 'soft' scientist.   I'm an astrophysicist.   I'll let you guys worry about how all the dots connect.  I'm a big systems kind of guy.  I rock physics, human psyche, and dysfunctional human societies only cuz I'm really good with complex systems that interact non-linearly.  I know how those systems work in rather, um, very pure and intimate ways.   Academia is welcome to get themselves caught up in the nuances if they wish, but they're gonna ultimately adapt to it because no one is gonna to be able to break this, it is representative, and I'm not concerned with academia challenging me on anything.  Not to mention I have no interest in proving anything in this realm, only reaching humanity...getting more of my site up should handle that. 


If you're writing for laypeople then you might get some to agree with you. There's a lot of weird stuff floating around out there and you use some sciencey-sounding words and ideas to scaffold your own, but you take huge interpretative leaps that leave the whole thing coming off as New Agey. You write a lot but don't actually delve deep into the subject. I wouldn't put it in the same bag as Deepak Chopra's material because his is much worse, but it's in the same...neighborhood. Leaps?   To where?   perfect representation of physical reality?  -let's not lose track of the fact that just cuz humanity does not have complete academic grasp of the entire structure, it does not mean the structure is not there.  I know you don't see it, that's what the site is for. 


I'll check out those links later, I'm in a lab right now (and in fact, should be doing more productive things) but for now I'll just say that it's actually rare for neuroscientists to use the word 'subconscious'. Like I said before, it reeks of New Age terminology, or is a word you would find staining the pages of self-help books. It is not something commonly found in neuroscience papers, where people tend to use 'unconscious' instead. Meh.   Not really catering to them, they have established world views, you see.   And much like you, they will have no good reason to disagree with any of this, but they will just the same.

But anyway, are you sure there isn't a better definition out there?  ::) How do you actually draw a line between the subconscious/unconscious mind and the conscious one?Exactly what issue do you find there?   What about that assessment in any way contests your understanding of humanity?


Is spirituality meaningful in people's lives?

I can assure you you'll come to know much more about that in the next few years.
In the last few millennia we have made the most astonishing and unexpected discoveries about the Cosmos and our place within it, explorations that are exhilarating to consider. They remind us that humans have evolved to wonder, that understanding is a joy, that knowledge is prerequisite to survival.   -Carl Sagan

xSilverPhinx

  • Non Dvcor
  • *****
  • 19579
  • Gender: Female
  • I Spy With My Googly Eyes...JOY! IAGO!
Re: Human Nature:
« Reply #7 on: October 30, 2019, 06:36:04 PM »
Ok, first of all, you mention that everyone is your audience, but then go on to scoff at academia -- neuroscientists, cognitive psychologists, etc. -- people who are knowledgeable in the field who can tell you where your hypothesis is lacking. You seem to be enamored with this idea you consider your brainchild, and blinded because of that. But, people can't be rational all the time, so your defensiveness is understandable.

As someone who aspires to work in academia as a neuroscientist, I can tell you the brain is an incredibly complex thing. How it interacts with the environment and changes as a result, even more so. When I said that your idea was too simplistic, I did not mean it was simple and elegant like a revolutionary new mathematical formula, I meant you don't seem to see the complexity.

Ever heard of the Dunning-Kruger Effect? I think that's what's going on here. It's an interesting psychological phenomenon. It doesn't necessarily mean an unskilled person is stupid, just lacking the knowledge to properly assess just how well they know what they think they know. Unskilled and unaware of it. 

Quote
Leaps?   To where?   perfect representation of physical reality?  -let's not lose track of the fact that just cuz humanity does not have complete academic grasp of the entire structure, it does not mean the structure is not there.  I know you don't see it, that's what the site is for. 

Overconfident leaps to conclusions that are really simplistic, annoyingly so. Entire structure? Dude, you basically divided the mind into two realms and say that spirituality comes from the subconscious, which is located in the limbic system. :doh: You're leaving out so much, which is why I brought up the conscious mind as well. They both interact a lot so how can you assert that one takes prevalence over the other when it comes to spirituality?

Have you ever heard of the parable of the Elephant and the Blind Men?

Quote
A group of blind men heard that a strange animal, called an elephant, had been brought to the town, but none of them were aware of its shape and form. Out of curiosity, they said: "We must inspect and know it by touch, of which we are capable". So, they sought it out, and when they found it they groped about it. In the case of the first person, whose hand landed on the trunk, said "This being is like a thick snake". For another one whose hand reached its ear, it seemed like a kind of fan. As for another person, whose hand was upon its leg, said, the elephant is a pillar like a tree-trunk. The blind man who placed his hand upon its side said the elephant, "is a wall". Another who felt its tail, described it as a rope. The last felt its tusk, stating the elephant is that which is hard, smooth and like a spear.

It's a metaphor for scientific reductionism. You are one of the blind men, failing to "see" the big picture.

Quote
Exactly what issue do you find there?   What about that assessment in any way contests your understanding of humanity?

What I wrote in my previous post:

Since conscious is a different side of the same coin it helps to define that phenomenon as well. What is consciousness?! Is it a brain region? Is it a brain artifact? What causes it and where can it be found?

Is spirituality meaningful in people's lives? If so, there could be a link between the emotions felt and memories with the brain's language centers in the neocortex. Are there abstract concepts involved? What separates spirituality from emotions, such as feelings of awe and of being in the world? As for feelings of being in the world, wouldn't that involve consciousness?


You say that the subconscious is what we don't have active control of. So what does that make consciousness in your view? Things we can control?
I am what survives if it's slain - Zack Hemsey


xSilverPhinx

  • Non Dvcor
  • *****
  • 19579
  • Gender: Female
  • I Spy With My Googly Eyes...JOY! IAGO!
Re: Human Nature:
« Reply #8 on: October 30, 2019, 06:44:03 PM »
Ok, first of all, you mention that everyone is your audience, but then go on to scoff at academia -- neuroscientists, cognitive psychologists, etc. -- people who are knowledgeable in the field who can tell you where your hypothesis is lacking. You seem to be enamored with this idea you consider your brainchild, and blinded because of that. But, people can't be rational all the time, so your defensiveness is understandable.

Just to add, it's ok to be irrational, humans mostly are, just don't let your biases blind you.

I am what survives if it's slain - Zack Hemsey


Rift Zone

  • **
  • 364
  • https://rift.zone
Re: Human Nature:
« Reply #9 on: October 30, 2019, 07:07:09 PM »
Dunning-Kruger Effect? I think that's what's going on here.
Cute.   
   "Albert Einstein was quoted as saying, “Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.   The mediocre mind is incapable of understanding the man who refuses to bow blindly to conventional prejudices and chooses instead to express his opinions courageously and honestly.”    With comprehensive awareness of spirituality it becomes clear that “mediocre minds” may not necessarily be what inspired those sentiments; those “conventional prejudices” amount to their understanding of universe, which would be necessarily tied to their understanding of self, and thus directly involve their spirituality, the primary source of our identities.  It would effectively pit one’s identity against whatever is argued, and identity will win every time.   One might think secular science enthusiasts would readily adopt stances that are shown to better represent physical reality, but this is not exactly the case.   History has witnessed ages of humanity initially rejecting contrary perspectives only to praise their innovation later.   Thousands have years have passed and we still know Socrates’ name; we respect him for what he brought us, but we killed him for it at the time.   Nicolaus Copernicus wouldn’t even publish his works until he was on his death bed.  We treated Galileo harshly, Darwin too.   Throughout history contrary perspectives have been met with “violent opposition”; many examples of this involve religious beliefs, but not all.  It’s our default reaction to challenges to world view, not merely religious beliefs.  Keep in mind adopted religion is world view, there’s no distinction there.   There’s also no distinction between how we treat challenges to world view; the source of the world view is an inconsequential detail."   

funny how you're keen on talking shit about me and arguing inconsequential peripheral stuff rather than addressing the concepts presented, huh?   logical fallacy mean any thing to you?   Truth is if I didn't know what I was talking about, I'd get eaten alive; however the real case is I do know what I'm talking about and your pathetic attempts to protect your own world view will be exposed every time I see them.   I know you want to discount this really bad; good luck with that.   This is not the little leagues up in here.  I defy you find a physicist capable enough to discuss physics with me, cuz you'll sure as hell will never find one capable of successfully challenging any of my works.   -see how that goes?  ;)
In the last few millennia we have made the most astonishing and unexpected discoveries about the Cosmos and our place within it, explorations that are exhilarating to consider. They remind us that humans have evolved to wonder, that understanding is a joy, that knowledge is prerequisite to survival.   -Carl Sagan

xSilverPhinx

  • Non Dvcor
  • *****
  • 19579
  • Gender: Female
  • I Spy With My Googly Eyes...JOY! IAGO!
Re: Human Nature:
« Reply #10 on: October 30, 2019, 07:24:39 PM »
Yeah, I thought that's how you would react. Besides unskilled and unaware of it, you seem to be a raging narcissist.

If I do recall, you flew into a narcissistic rage last time as well...

Still failed to answer my queries, calling them and my observations "inconsequential peripheral stuff"...I still wonder whether you won't or can't. Think it's the latter. I think I'll wrap up, dis ain't goin' nowhere.

Physics? What does that have to do with this topic? Ah, I see. Another characteristic of a narcissistic personality. Trying to make yourself feel smart...now that's cute.
I am what survives if it's slain - Zack Hemsey


Rift Zone

  • **
  • 364
  • https://rift.zone
Re: Human Nature:
« Reply #11 on: October 30, 2019, 07:58:37 PM »
Yeah, I thought that's how you would react. Besides unskilled and unaware of it, you seem to be a raging narcissist.

If I do recall, you flew into a narcissistic rage last time as well...

Still failed to answer my queries, calling them and my observations "inconsequential peripheral stuff"...I still wonder whether you won't or can't. Think it's the latter. I think I'll wrap up, dis ain't goin' nowhere.

Physics? What does that have to do with this topic? Ah, I see. Another characteristic of a narcissistic personality. Trying to make yourself feel smart...now that's cute.
Unskilled?   sure.   I'll concede layman status on the soft science realms this impacts.  It is indeed not my forte.   I'm better off with physics and math, this realm is sloppy.   Just the same, I can claim with confidence and firmly demonstrate this is how we and our world works.  How all this manifests in humanity on psychological and physiological levels is beyond my expertise and interest.  I'm not trying to express it on those levels, though I will use all available soft science to my advantage just the same.   The work, and proof exists within the big picture.  This is how the system works, I can prove it; and how it manifests in the various soft sciences is not exactly my concern or problem.   

Right.   Cuz narcissists are so wrapped up in themselves they chase mother nature long enough to figure out how she operates on hard science levels, and also love the world so much they tried to figure out what what going wrong, and fortunately managed to do so.   ...cool story bro!

I wanted to establish something first.   now that's done, pardon me, what was your question(s) again?

I'm autodidact, was not trained by nor do I work within academia.   Physics is getting thrown into the mix to give the world a better understanding of who I am...   And it has everything to do your dunning-kruger comment!   play me like that... lol   good luck with that one too! 
 
In the last few millennia we have made the most astonishing and unexpected discoveries about the Cosmos and our place within it, explorations that are exhilarating to consider. They remind us that humans have evolved to wonder, that understanding is a joy, that knowledge is prerequisite to survival.   -Carl Sagan

Tank

  • *****
  • 33681
  • Gender: Male
Re: Human Nature:
« Reply #12 on: October 30, 2019, 08:12:41 PM »
You seem to be under some sort of misapprehension we care who you are.
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
“Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt.” ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

Rift Zone

  • **
  • 364
  • https://rift.zone
Re: Human Nature:
« Reply #13 on: October 30, 2019, 08:20:26 PM »
You seem to be under some sort of misapprehension we care who you are.
who I am is rather inconsequential to this whole thing.   How humanity operates, however, and how we can use that info to diminish religion for the express purpose of saving the world might be of interest to someone. 

I mean, take that spirituality outline, plug in religious teachings of both scripture and culture, and does it not perfectly explain the psychology of trump supporters, climate deniers...   and the hierarchy structures in scripture and earthly realms align perfectly with 1percenters.    Ever given any thought as to why religion has clearly far more impact on humanity than conventional understanding of belief structure can explain?   

anyway, take that spirituality outline and plug this into it:
Carl Sagan was one of the greatest spiritual leaders who has ever lived; his works are the most spiritually pure works humanity has ever produced. Much to his credit as a scientist, Carl Sagan was agnostic. However, irrespective of his certainty over the issue, he operated with what he could find in the universe. What he found was revealed by science and it effectively leaves his works with a rather pronounced atheistic feel to them. Scientists often speak of what we know; Sagan spoke of what we are, directly engaging our spirituality every moment of it. It is precisely why those exposed to his works tend to love him so: they too could begin to relate to the universe on a similar level, a spiritual level.

Sagan was in love with life, sentience, and the universe that bestowed it upon us. Life is the most intrinsically valuable substance in the universe. Sentience, our capacity of rich thought, is yet another gift of equal magnitude. Being technologically capable is yet another. It does not get any better than that. You are a member of the most capable species known to exist, that could conceivable exist, irrespective of how long we’ve been around or how much of our potential we’ve fulfilled.  To borrow terminology from religion, we are concentrations of divinity. Sagan reveled in this truthful relationship with the universe. Our identity is simple and demonstrable. We have ample science demonstrating life, we, our ancestors, have been on this planet for around 4 billion years. Science does a fantastic job at answering many of our core questions. However, there does seem to be something missing from it… Take atheists, for instance, they look into the universe to get a sense of understanding of self… and mostly see the universe is indifferent to their existence… and it is an utter tragedy. We are precisely as Sagan described us to be: we are the universe's way to know itself. We are its ability to love, produce art, literature, science... We are the most intrinsically valuable thing in the universe; of all the wonderful things this universe does, we accomplish some of the the amazing feats. You're the coolest thing in the universe: alive, smart, profoundly capable, you're an awesome creature. You've been given a gift, a place of honor, use it wisely. Make yourself worthy of the honor you've been given by treating all life, your kin, with dignity and respect. Laugh, play, dance, explore... Enjoy this life, it is precious. Give it your all, it's the only one you got. Grow and learn, you are young, born of the stars, fulfill your destiny with your technology and frolic with them once again.

All the world is a stage… and while it is fantastic that we can see wonderful things pertaining to humanity’s place in the universe, spirituality is a rather personal thing. We want to know where we fit in to existence. First of all, our world is not set up for the contentment or longevity of any species, particularly our own, so the answer is not exactly so simple.  Yet, it is kinda simple: what inspires you? Children more or less tell us everyday what they want to bring to the world. We have natural musicians, programmers, painters, engineers, writers, craftsmen, and scientists running around all over the place. The nature of your being is going to tell you who you are, how to best express what you are. It’s already been written in us. Unfortunately, this world is a messed up place, so seldom do we find good alignment between our beings and lives, but we can change that. To be sure, we’ve been low level poisoning our immediate environments and selves, both chemically and psychologically for a long time… not everything going on within humanity right now is, um, appropriate. …but we can change that too.

Shinrin-yoku: ‘forest-bathing’… We are now collecting tons of science (from psychological to medical and certainly beyond) that shows how deep the connection between humanity and nature is. It is astounding. Shinrin-yoku is the practice of going into natural areas for the express purpose of gaining the medical and psychological benefits shown to come from it. It is a somewhat new investigation for mainstream science, but how much our physicality benefits from exposure to nature is becoming more established and better understood every day. Evolution tells us we are directly “bloodline” related to every living thing in nature; that is our family, and look what happens to us when we go home. That is incredibly profound.

What’s paradise? The natural world? -Effectively, that is exactly what it is! It is also a feeling, it’s a relationship, it’s something deep in us that makes paradise. We may have thought about it and coined the term, but the reason we bond with the concept is not something we consciously did to ourselves. It too is indicative of not just the deep relationship humanity has to our belief strucutre, but even more so how that relationship necessarily interlinked with the rest of the natural world.  We thrive on being exposed to our native enviroments or otherwise indulge our true relation to universe.    We have the capacity to put it virtually everywhere in abundance.

Atheistic spirituality inspires a completely different relationship than what religion teaches, a much more empowering one. Atheistic spirituality, the Way of the Cosmos, is the purest and most empowering expression of spirituality [spiritual path] possible.

I'm certain you're aware of how much craziness humanity does for the sake of their spirituality. I'm certain you're aware of how far people go to align themselves with their spirituality. I submit to you spirituality is the strongest force on this planet. Nothing is as powerful because nothing can inspire humanity like spirituality can.

"A religion, old or new, that stressed the magnificence of the Universe as revealed by modern science might be able to draw forth reserves of reverence and awe hardly tapped by the conventional faiths." -Carl Sagan.

This work promises to take those reserves and literally turn saving the world into a spiritual quest for humanity. The qualities of humanity's new relationship with universe will see to it. Humanity has aligned itself with identity crisis rife with questionable, and outright harmful philosophies. It is the reason our world suffers. This work will resolve that crisis as humanity embraces its true identity; and through that, we will build a better world. Spirituality demands we reconcile and align with what we find there. It will soon demand we reconcile with nature and ourselves.
In the last few millennia we have made the most astonishing and unexpected discoveries about the Cosmos and our place within it, explorations that are exhilarating to consider. They remind us that humans have evolved to wonder, that understanding is a joy, that knowledge is prerequisite to survival.   -Carl Sagan

xSilverPhinx

  • Non Dvcor
  • *****
  • 19579
  • Gender: Female
  • I Spy With My Googly Eyes...JOY! IAGO!
Re: Human Nature:
« Reply #14 on: October 31, 2019, 12:48:30 AM »
Yeah, I thought that's how you would react. Besides unskilled and unaware of it, you seem to be a raging narcissist.

If I do recall, you flew into a narcissistic rage last time as well...

Still failed to answer my queries, calling them and my observations "inconsequential peripheral stuff"...I still wonder whether you won't or can't. Think it's the latter. I think I'll wrap up, dis ain't goin' nowhere.

Physics? What does that have to do with this topic? Ah, I see. Another characteristic of a narcissistic personality. Trying to make yourself feel smart...now that's cute.
Unskilled?   sure.   I'll concede layman status on the soft science realms this impacts.  It is indeed not my forte.   I'm better off with physics and math, this realm is sloppy.   Just the same, I can claim with confidence and firmly demonstrate this is how we and our world works.  How all this manifests in humanity on psychological and physiological levels is beyond my expertise and interest.  I'm not trying to express it on those levels, though I will use all available soft science to my advantage just the same.   The work, and proof exists within the big picture.  This is how the system works, I can prove it; and how it manifests in the various soft sciences is not exactly my concern or problem.

That you are a layman, albeit a very confident one, is clear. That's why I brought up Dunning-Kruger. I think it describes you perfectly when you come here with your hypotheses on spirituality and brain science. It's like watching someone who clearly can't sing go on American Idol and think they're going to wow the judges. It's funny to watch the aftermath of the reality check that comes after.
It's like you fail Gestalt Perception except with intuition instead of vision...you need to be humble when it comes to science and know that you have biases that will cause distortions in interpretation. Everybody has biases. In fact, thinking you're bias-free is a bias in itself.

For someone who keeps mentioning the hard sciences you don't seem to employ much scientific rigor in your interpretations...

Even more, if you lack deeper knowledge, how do you expect to come up with answers to complex questions? The brain doesn't pull answers out of thin air, not even the brains of true geniuses. If it doesn't work that way for them, imagine us!

Quote
Right.   Cuz narcissists are so wrapped up in themselves they chase mother nature long enough to figure out how she operates on hard science levels, and also love the world so much they tried to figure out what what going wrong, and fortunately managed to do so.   ...cool story bro!

Oh no, no, no, you misunderstand! I think you're on the higher end of the narcissism spectrum because:

1) You think you're a genius and come off as wanting admiration from people;
2) You see yourself as intellectually superior and others who contest your ideas as inferior;
3) When you don't get the admiration for your perceived intellectual abilities, you fly into a rage ("narcisisstic injury" and "narcisisstic rage");
4) You have a grandiose sense of self, thinking you solved what went wrong with the world.

Quote
I wanted to establish something first.   now that's done, pardon me, what was your question(s) again?

I'm not going to repeat myself, they're there in my previous threads.

Quote
I'm autodidact, was not trained by nor do I work within academia.   Physics is getting thrown into the mix to give the world a better understanding of who I am...   And it has everything to do your dunning-kruger comment!   play me like that... lol   good luck with that one too!

Oh, so you don't have a formal degree in physics? Okaaay...

As for the bolded font, that right there is an excellent example of what a narcissist would say when they suffer narcissistic injury to their ego!  ::)
I am what survives if it's slain - Zack Hemsey