The loneliest number - a bit of a ramble

[Asmodean]

Ooh, I like this. 

Then I suppose, it's welcome to the few.

Not to abuse the venerable "It's the current year" argument, but it is the current year, and the general social trends seem to be headed for kill and let die (more or less metaphorically. "Less" having gained some momentum in the past decade) rather than live and let's talk.

[Magdalena]

Ooh, I like this. 

Then I suppose, it's welcome to the few.
....

Cool!
Now we just need to convince the other 7.8 billion.   

[Asmodean]

Dear Gray one, you are waxing eloquent. Please continue.

Ah, yes! That is another thing Asmos tend to do in their Return Ramblings. Also, the eyebrows. Rumour has it that they are waxed to elegance.

There are those who say that I should have been a politician... But nah. Waxing eloquent about the issues with fiery rhetoric and vivid imagery is one thing. Actually resolving them... Yeah, sort-of trying to work on that.

Now we just need to convince the other 7.8 billion.   

...At least enough of those content on watching silently as the "civilized world" slowly burns around them to maybe actually start talking to people. Not at them. To.

[Icarus]

Now we just need to convince the other 7.8 billion.   

...At least enough of those content on watching silently as the "civilized world" slowly burns around them to maybe actually start talking to people. Not at them. To.
[/quote]

I cannot help but feel that my world is burning more certainly than the Asmo's world.   My society has become egregiously divided.  Let us see whether the upcoming election has any hope of mending the divide.  I worry. 

[Asmodean]

This same divide is gaining momentum “all over the place.” My worry is that wars may have to erupt before ever people start listening to whoever they deem heretical.

[Bad Penny II]

I cannot help but feel that my world is burning more certainly than the Asmo's world.   My society has become egregiously divided.  Let us see whether the upcoming election has any hope of mending the divide.  I worry. 

Maybe you can hope to stop the widening, bridging the thing is an engineering feat I can't imagine, but I'm just a pudding.
I was a cynical youth, duty and loyalty to institutions like schools and nations and law, ha, let the others, the saps do that.
Now the people that run the USA have abandoned nobility: WordWeb definition (2) The quality of elevation of mind and exaltation of character, ideals or conduct.  I'd mock the boy scout do good notions, you don't miss what you've got till it's gone.
Fuck, fuck, fuck.  These people have no honour any more, it's OK to cheat now 'cause we're cheating the others.
There is no sense of fair play, a lack of morality if you will.  This is decadence and an old dottery Dem won't fix it.

[Asmodean]

Honestly, I think that the only path to lessening the divide is for Mr. Biden to win. It has little to do with policies, however, and a lot to do with who has the more radicalised, riot-prone base. This is also a variable in the upcoming elections, as I suppose one must count on some people voting based at least partly on fear of riots, while others again will vote the opposite for reasons of "let them come."

I may be wrong, but I think that if president Trump loses his bid for re-election, his base will whine and grumble, but accept it. Should he win... Yeah. 2016, but worse is my prediction.

The Trump presidency has been... Impactful. For starters, three Supreme Court nominations. His hand will be felt in the US and global politics for decades to come no matter the outcome of the elections, and the prospects of another term, even one of lesser impact, will drive a lot of opposition to rioting and looting.

[Bad Penny II]

I may be wrong, but I think that if president Trump loses his bid for re-election, his base will whine and grumble, but accept it. Should he win... Yeah. 2016, but worse is my prediction.

Most of his millions will probably do as you say but you know, a single million is quite a lot, there's going to be some ratbags amongst them to keep the news folk busy, maybe.

The Trump presidency has been... Impactful. For starters, three Supreme Court nominations. His hand will be felt in the US and global politics for decades to come no matter the outcome of the elections, and the prospects of another term, even one of lesser impact, will drive a lot of opposition to rioting and looting.

I remember mentioning supreme court appointments to some American who didn't think Hilary was left enough, they're all the same so why vote?

I find USAmerica and its troubles tiresome.

New Zealand Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern has claimed a landslide election victory.

At a Labour event in Auckland she had two simple words to say: "thank you".

But it's what she didn't say that raised eyebrows.

Pollsters forecast Labour would do well, but not this well. A Friday poll put the PM's party at 44 per cent, but they're actually currently on around 49 per cent.

Labour could have enough votes to govern without a coalition partner - something that's unheard of in New Zealand.

[billy rubin]

i wish i could disagree, but i dont.

i think the vision for how tge united srates was going to work had great promise, but like all governments it depended on the integrity of the the people in it.

the US has seen a critically important detachment beteeen the health and well being of the upper and lower classes. since the classes are defined by money only the upper classes secure their positions by using the system to reinforce their advantages. in the american system the upper classes bear no social responsibility for the welfare of the lower, and just exploit them.

loeer clazz people in the ztates are significantly worse off economically and have significantly pooere prospects than they did just a few decades ago.

thats what we re seeing now being reflected in politicz. the lower classes outside the cities feel abandoned and are are taking it out on the other lower classes that they believe are gaining entitlements. the rich are standing by and watching, and getting richer.

the politics will ztay dysfunctional until the society is changed. i dont see it happening.

[Bad Penny II]

It's not just the States. It's like that in the UK too - and even beyond the Northern anglosphere. Even some people within my own fair shores are becoming rabidly <insert an -ism>

...Must be nice to have everything figured out to such a degree that one's own opinions become The Way, The Truth and The Life. A "God-shaped hole," filled by faith of a different kind - though just as absolute. I do not possess such an orifice, but in the circles in which I move, some people apparently do. Then they convince the predisposed and the vicious cycle continues. Inquisitors coming for wrongthinkers, with literal torches sometimes, angry mobs pillaging and looting in the name of their ill-defined "gods..." History. It repeats. An asshole in different trousers, though it may be - it is an asshole still.

Ye well there are issues that being on the wrong side of taints you, you’re are not worth talking to.

1)   Women/misogynists
2)   Racists
3)   Climate change/deniers
4)   Gender identity and the configuration of bits peoples bring into close proximity.

1) Astoundingly it seems there are men that have “bad”attitudes twards woman.
Some will rape them, beat them, kill them even if they’re the mother of their children.
I don’t think I want to do polite discourse with some of them.

2) Racists, I think I am a bit racist but I’m told to strive for purity by an English brown guy.  Well you go first and I’ll continue to  avoid being cruel because you shouldn’t be and I don’t enjoy it anyway.

3) Ha, the big one.  I’m not going to convince anyone, my dad told me it was bullshit on his way out.
I’m in danger of getting emotional and talking all irrational.  The future of civilisation is a concern, I also value cute creatures, the Great Barrier Reef isn’t as great anymore, fire came to my home.

The Asmo principle, leave my stuff alone and I’ll leave your stuff alone, the fish, the cute animals, they are my stuff.  I’ve been here 29 years sharing their place but now they’re gone, last one one I saw was blind, about to die alone, it was always a mother and a young one here, for how long  before I came I don’t know, they’ve suffered in lots of places, I don’t know if they’ll come back anytime soon, not with new roads and all, not this side of our demise.  The large roos and feral deer are still here.  Say a word against Greta Thunberg and I’ll hate you, not as much as you deserve but as much as I can manage on the day.

4) I’ll leave that for another time.

I also could have a conversation with anyone, irrespective of how different their views were from mine, as long as the conversation was civil.  That's difficult in the USA today.  Everyone demonizes everyone.  I understand the urge to be alone - I could handle a bit more of it.

I live in the USA.  I've been here for 64 of my 67 years.  It's certainly no worse than any place else I've been.  If you try to take 330,000,000 people of every sort and try to make a nation out of them, I'd say we've done as well as anyone else could.  Everyone else can fuck off.

I’m not trying to be an asshole here, I just find the impulse/resorting to “Everyone else can fuck off” interesting, I’ve done it, I try to temper it sometimes.

[Davin]

1)   Women/misogynists
2)   Racists
3)   Climate change/deniers
4)   Gender identity and the configuration of bits peoples bring into close proximity.

1 and 2, even though they are different, get lumped against the same thing to me: treating everyone equitably. No one is going to be perfect, but if one cannot self evaluate their behavior and/or refuses to change bad behaviors, then there isn't much use in a relationship with them.

3 is an odd thing to be against, and I don't quite get why anyone is against making the planet, where we all live, a cleaner and nicer place. It's like living with someone who makes a mess all the time, makes fun of you for cleaning the place up, and then makes an even bigger mess to stick it to you for caring about having a clean place to live. I don't see how one can have a good or even neutral relationship with someone like that.

4 What pronoun a person wants to be called shouldn't be any bigger an issue than what their name is. If someone says their name is Sally and the other person keeps calling them Albert, then the other person is being an asshole. There is no harm caused to someone by using the pronoun that a person wants used. Whatever someone wants to (or not do as the case sometimes is), do with their bits by themselves or with other consenting adults, is not really something that people outside that relationship should be concerned with. And if people are concerned with it, they're overreaching assholes. So I guess this one could also be lumped into the first bucket of treating people equitably.

My last one is politics. I think it's OK to disagree on policy and opinions. I don't think it's OK to maintain a policy or opinion that goes against facts though. It's also not OK to use inconsistent logic and/or to not have any integrity in ones judgments. If a person is shown to have based their opinion on faulty ground, and they refuse to acknowledge it, then I think it's OK to not want to be friends with that person.

Friendship is a thing where people share, learn, and rub off on each other. It's OK that if you feel like a friend is becoming an intolerant asshole to break up the friendship because you don't want to share in that kind of thing or to have that rub off on you.

[Asmodean]

Ye well there are issues that being on the wrong side of taints you, you’re are not worth talking to.

I disagree.Talking to people is both the path to understanding their thought processes and whatever events they may have caused/contributed to and a potential way of swaying their opinion, or at least planting a seed of doubt here and there (Secondary goal at best, but not insignificant)

1)   Women/misogynists
2)   Racists
3)   Climate change/deniers
4)   Gender identity and the configuration of bits peoples bring into close proximity.

Yeah. I'd talk to someone on the "wrong side" of all of these issues, and a thief and a terrorist besides. Tainted? In the words of the abovequoted Stephen Fry,

Well, so fucking what?

1) Astoundingly it seems there are men that have “bad”attitudes twards woman.
Some will rape them, beat them, kill them even if they’re the mother of their children.
I don’t think I want to do polite discourse with some of them.

If they are being polite, why would you not be?

Also, there are many topics you may want to have a discussion with them about, none of which specifically involve women, ethnic minorities or... What have you. Maybe the (potentially violent) heretic in question is a kickass silicone board designer and you are looking to have just such a board designed..? People tend to be more than whatever it is they do, which you perceive to be wrong, and not every situation calls for stand-offishness or condemnation, especially of situationally-unrelated factors.

This reminds me of that time our minister of fish-related affairs went to Iran and certain people were up in arms over him not commenting on their human rights record... Yeah. The dude does fish. The Iranians abuse their fish no more than we do. Hashtag fishlivesmatter hashtag notreally.

2) Racists, I think I am a bit racist but I’m told to strive for purity by an English brown guy.  Well you go first and I’ll continue to  avoid being cruel because you shouldn’t be and I don’t enjoy it anyway.

Personally, I don't get involved in who you do and don't like and why. We can drop the subject and still have a productive conversation - or discuss the subject and disagree. OR, on rare occasion, we may even find common ground. Racism is not a reason for not talking to somebody either.

3) Ha, the big one.  I’m not going to convince anyone, my dad told me it was bullshit on his way out.
I’m in danger of getting emotional and talking all irrational.  The future of civilisation is a concern, I also value cute creatures, the Great Barrier Reef isn’t as great anymore, fire came to my home.

The thing got political, lines got drawn and highly-exclusionary tribes rule each their side of the issue.

I'll happily talk to whatever side of this issue, and find common ground with most, except the most rabid on either side. I think I've outlined my personal stance and why I hold it. It boils down to unconvincing arguments in favour of taking certain actions, even though the arguments in favour of the general climate trends are persuasive.

The climate is changing.
OK.
It's a problem.
No.
Ok, it's a problem for a lot of people.
OK.
We must do something.
No.
Ok, we ought to do something.
OK.
Get a electric car.
What does it do?
Something.

Show me how my contribution will save them roos or NYC from ending up in the drink or Micronesia from following suit and... Yeah. We can talk about it.

Say a word against Greta Thunberg and I’ll hate you, not as much as you deserve but as much as I can manage on the day.

Challenge accepted.

She started out as a clueless kid, and is still not much more than that. Charismatic enough in her own way, but as unconvincing as the rest of the pop culture idols. Also, Mother Theresa was a fraud and crab sticks are not made from crab.

In the immortal words of Blue October,

Hate me today
Hate me tomorrow
Hate me for all the things I didn't do for you
Hate me in ways
Yeah, ways hard to swallow
Hate me so you can finally see what’s good for you

4) I’ll leave that for another time.

Deserves its own post, really. It's been months since I ranted about "special" and "unique" people, "deserving" of something for nothing from me.

[Asmodean]

If a person is shown to have based their opinion on faulty ground, and they refuse to acknowledge it, then I think it's OK to not want to be friends with that person.

What do you know, I managed to not see a very interesting point, especially as it relates to my current... Thing.

In case of climate hysteria (As a wide fringe subset of climate activism) a lot of people parrot the opinions of others and expect someone like me to act on those opinions. "99,999% of scientists say..." and "It is Known™ that..." and "We, including you, must do a thing because the thing must be done..."

My most recent falling out stems from my stance being "Show me your test parameters," (How can my own sweet self verify what you're saying without relying on the opinion of others. Specifically, that a certain contribution to a cause actually matters to that particular cause) and my opposition's stance being "I believe/trust them over there." I just find it sad that the latter approach, which is mostly-valid, especially in questions where, conflicting ideologies considered, there are no objectively correct or wrong answers, tends to cause people to close ranks among the "true believers" and refuse to talk/listen to those who find their gods unconvincing.

My apologies for that sentence. It was rather a complex thought.

Another interesting point I missed;

The Asmo principle, leave my stuff alone and I’ll leave your stuff alone, the fish, the cute animals, they are my stuff.

Sure, if I run over your pet roo, there may be some question of compensation, but I'm almost certain that we are talking in broader terms here. So, disregarding any actual/legal private property...

If they are yours to do with as you please, are they not also mine to do with as I please?

For instance, if one of us wants to preserve, and the other wants to exploit, who gets the right of way? My suggestion is no-one, but also everyone. A compromise, which is not completely palatable nor completely unacceptable to either party. The weighting of it can then be resolved by factors like numerical superiority in a vote, "usefulness" and others... Which is sort-of a separate discussion.

[Icarus]

We do have our differences in all sorts of ways.

Here is an almost humorous report that demonstrates our differences in priorities.  Denmark is building or has built a 47 mile fence separating the Danish/German border. The purpose is not to keep the Mexicans out of Denmark.  It is to keep the German boars from invading the Viking territory.  (Boars: as in the formidable pig like beasts that root up all manner of agricultural sites) 

Any Danes out there who can verify or deny such a news report?...............No intent to derail the conversation here.........Asmo:  please proceed with your scholarly and eloquent argumentation.

[Asmodean]

While The Asmo's bloviating is of a more personal than scholarly nature (albeit with a sprinkling of good points here and there) on this particular occasion, He shall indeed rant on. 

I have not seen the Trump Wall of Denmark last I was there, but if it is a relatively new thing, or is/was being built in other areas than where I hang out (There, the border is as often as not a ditch between two farmlands or a meter or two of vegetation between houses) then it would not surprise me.

The Hungarians, they have a fence too. that one is mostly for the two-legged "invaders" though.

I would propose a solution involving hunting for the things (Upon re-reading, it seems prudent to add; boars, not Syrians)  with spears, mano a... Tusk-in-Spanish-o? But the fence... It should work just as well for the purpose.