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UK election

Started by Dave, June 09, 2017, 08:46:15 AM

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Dave

Well, though I have often thought hanging is the appropriate punishment for our governmrnt a hung parpiament is, perhsps, not the best result at the moment.

The Ulster Democratic Unionist Party will be, mostly, on the Tory's side and that will give them a tiny majotity. But do the DUP support Brexit - which is not entirely in N. Ireland's best interests? And May has a few rebels to contend with it is reported.

Usual political crowing and denials proliferate, 99.9% of which claims are probably false
Tomorrow is precious, don't ruin it by fouling up today.
Passed Monday 10th Dec 2018 age 74

OldGit

The ruling Tories now have fewer seats than before, and will have to try and make a minority government work, or form a coalition with the DUP - a small Irish party.  This is not good.

It's not just my usual partisan feelings, but a weak and wobbly government in the middle of our exit from the EU is obviously going to weaken our negotiating position.

Dave

It seems that the DUP are pro-Brexit, but, no doubt, they will want to extract some heavy stuff out of the Tories in exchange for support.

But there are still Tories who are not satisfied with May's tactics it seems.

Don't you just hate these "interesting times"?
Tomorrow is precious, don't ruin it by fouling up today.
Passed Monday 10th Dec 2018 age 74

Papasito Bruno

Quote from: OldGit on June 09, 2017, 10:15:05 AM
The ruling Tories now have fewer seats than before, and will have to try and make a minority government work, or form a coalition with the DUP - a small Irish party.  This is not good.

It's not just my usual partisan feelings, but a weak and wobbly government in the middle of our exit from the EU is obviously going to weaken our negotiating position.

I don't have a complete understanding of all of this, so please bare in mind I'm learning as I read and try to understand the in's and out's of your latest election, but couldn't it be in Britain's favor if the Tories don't have the strong political backing that PM May wanted when she called for this latest election as you head into the Brexit negations?

Tories want complete pull out right, but wouldn't it be better to negotiate a pull out that allowed Britain to remain in the "single market" of the EU?
"Most people would rather be boring than be bored." <br />― Mokokoma Mokhonoana

Dave

Quote from: Father Bruno on June 09, 2017, 01:39:21 PM
Quote from: OldGit on June 09, 2017, 10:15:05 AM
The ruling Tories now have fewer seats than before, and will have to try and make a minority government work, or form a coalition with the DUP - a small Irish party.  This is not good.

It's not just my usual partisan feelings, but a weak and wobbly government in the middle of our exit from the EU is obviously going to weaken our negotiating position.

I don't have a complete understanding of all of this, so please bare in mind I'm learning as I read and try to understand the in's and out's of your latest election, but couldn't it be in Britain's favor if the Tories don't have the strong political backing that PM May wanted when she called for this latest election as you head into the Brexit negations?

Tories want complete pull out right, but wouldn't it be better to negotiate a pull out that allowed Britain to remain in the "single market" of the EU?

Yes, it is complex and May's weakened positition will, possibly, make Brirain's negotiating position weaker. This has almost become a personal thing, the Germans seem to want to go easy on us for mutual benefit but others, notably Jean-Claude Junker, seem determined to wipe the toilet bowl with us. (I think we opposed Junker's appointment to president of the European Commission and he has never fortten or forgiven that.)

In fact I doubt that even May in a strong domestic position would have much effect on the Brussels Bullies.

If I understand it to stay in the "single market" we would need a deal like Norway has. That will still mean paying truck loads of money and letting in immigrant workers from all European states. Probably having to follow many of the beaurocratic European laws and directives as well.

I am not sure whether EU financed science, social and environmental projects will be included or terminated in either situation.

I intensely dislike the way the EU does things, it is too protective and wasteful, but I despair of Britain's chances of survival if we have to rely on the likes of Trump for it.
Tomorrow is precious, don't ruin it by fouling up today.
Passed Monday 10th Dec 2018 age 74

Sandra Craft

Quote from: Gloucester on June 09, 2017, 02:37:48 PM

I intensely dislike the way the EU does things, it is too protective and wasteful, but I despair of Britain's chances of survival if we have to rely on the likes of Trump for it.

Yeah, I would give up any hopes there for the next 4 years at least.
Sandy

  

"Life is short, and it is up to you to make it sweet."  Sarah Louise Delany

Recusant

The DUP isn't just any 'small Irish party' though. They're pretty much the Loyalist equivalent of Sinn Fein (that is, firmly associated with a previous terrorist organisation) and home to Creationists, climate change deniers, vocal opponents of gay rights and same-sex marriage, and anti-choice activists.
"Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I hold in veneration — courage, clear thinking, honesty, fairness, and above all, love of the truth."
— H. L. Mencken


Dave

Quote from: Recusant on June 09, 2017, 11:52:52 PM
The DUP isn't just any 'small Irish party' though. They're pretty much the Loyalist equivalent of Sinn Fein (that is, firmly associated with a previous terrorist organisation) and home to Creationists, climate change deniers, vocal opponents of gay rights and same-sex marriage, and anti-choice activists.

True, and with 10 seats they have a critical part to play. Pivots on what their price is for support.

Coincidentally it is on the radio exactly now that they will be demanding no more expansion of LGBT rights.
Tomorrow is precious, don't ruin it by fouling up today.
Passed Monday 10th Dec 2018 age 74

Dave

Guardian columnist Owen Jones has said, on Twitter and as mentioned on the BBC:

QuoteThe DUP is the political wing of the 18th century, a bunch of homophobic bigots, and now they have the Tories over a barrel. 🤔

It has also been said that this will contrast with the Tories attempts recently to lose their reputation for being a Victorian reactionary party. But, they have alienated many older people, where their support base has traditionaly resided, with their policies on pensions, costing for elderly care (the so-called "Dementia Tax") etc, they have stirred the antipathy of the younger population by presiding over higher housing prices, lower wages and still flat job prospects - yet they still seem to claim they are a represenrative party working for the national good! Strong and stable?
Tomorrow is precious, don't ruin it by fouling up today.
Passed Monday 10th Dec 2018 age 74

OldGit

The Tories proposed a lot of hard necessities people didn't want to hear, whereas Labour  offered popular goodies.  The fact that the Tories were talking sense didn't persuade everybody.

Claireliontamer

The Tories ran an awful campaign.  May more or less hid from the public only doing very staged visits to places, she refused to take part in the TV debate and came across as a weak leader.  Then the content of their message was so negative that it out people off.

The key voters this time were the ex-UKIP, a lot were expected to vote conservative this time but it looks like a greater percentage of them went to Labour.

Dave

#11
Quote from: OldGit on June 10, 2017, 09:37:36 AM
The Tories proposed a lot of hard necessities people didn't want to hear, whereas Labour  offered popular goodies.  The fact that the Tories were talking sense didn't persuade everybody.
I have to agree with you there, OG, but perhaps there is a way to present things so there is a little sugar in the bitter pill.

May has been, justifiably I think, accused of tryng to be presidential - to my biased mind she sounds more Thatcheresque in her presentations and her actual voice every day. To start with I was for her but, well, we all know what power can do, turn the most reasonable and rational person into a despot. And keeping the likes of Boris the Buffoon on the staff . . . ?

There must be a balance between a hard rein on off-shore banking, exporting profit and the like and the cost of social needs. At the moment both major political parties are at opposing ends of that balance. For as long as parliament is split that way (though it seems many Tories are not 100% behind May) there will never be strong and stable government. Hard and rigid or soft and squishy when firm yet plastic are needed.

As has been said many times recently, up until the Brexit referrendum we were amongst the most stable countries in the world, growing nicely with something of a future. Now we are weak and directionless, with no definite plan for the future and possibly ridiculous expectations of what Europe owes us. All in a matter of months with May at the rudderless helm.
Tomorrow is precious, don't ruin it by fouling up today.
Passed Monday 10th Dec 2018 age 74

Dave

Inevitably Sinn Fein are utterly opposed to both the Tory-DUP alliance and Brexit.

The possibility if a "hard border" being re-established will both hit N. Ireland's economy badly and reduce Sinn Fein's chances of establishing a united Ireland. The Sinn Fein spokesman on rhe BBC World Service said that Brexit was the antithesis of the peace process, hinting that it nay start another round of violence.

Another Ulster spokeswoman said that in the process so dar May has trested N. Ireland "wuth contempt" and pointed out thst since mooting the alluance with the Democratic Unionist Party she has used the full title of "The Conservative and Unionist Party," something that is normally only used in very formal circumstances and documents. I think it is called, "sucking up", they have something she needs to give her just a little authority.

Also it looks like she has trouble with her advisers, many Tories want them sacked. Will she? Getting too much like a mini-Trump problem every day!
Tomorrow is precious, don't ruin it by fouling up today.
Passed Monday 10th Dec 2018 age 74

Claireliontamer

Quote from: Gloucester on June 10, 2017, 01:32:55 PM

Also it looks like she has trouble with her advisers, many Tories want them sacked. Will she? Getting too much like a mini-Trump problem every day!

Her two key advisers have now "resigned".

Dave

Quote from: Claireliontamer on June 10, 2017, 04:05:16 PM
Quote from: Gloucester on June 10, 2017, 01:32:55 PM

Also it looks like she has trouble with her advisers, many Tories want them sacked. Will she? Getting too much like a mini-Trump problem every day!

Her two key advisers have now "resigned".

Yeah, heard that. Takes the onus of publicly sacking them off May.
Tomorrow is precious, don't ruin it by fouling up today.
Passed Monday 10th Dec 2018 age 74