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Lying:

Started by Bad Penny II, May 03, 2018, 02:00:18 PM

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Bad Penny II

The deliberate act of deviating from the truth.
That'll do as a definition, bullshitting is lying.

I don't accept the absolute that lying should never be done.
I cite the dementia patient who asks "when will my wife be here?"
Carer says later, even though the wife's long dead.
If the carer said she was dead, dementia guy'd be upset for hours.
Wouldn't know why after a while but still would be.
Same thing day after day until he died or the rot removed the memory.
But dementia guy isn't full faculty, this example doesn't satisfy for normal human interaction.
Fair point Green Me, so lying to children... [beard stroking smiley]

I avoid lying, I don't like doing it and it is a truism that it complicates things.

When someone lies to you, what do you think of the person?
How does it effect future interaction?
Anyway the subject is lying and Bill and Monica are welcome.
Take my advice, don't listen to me.

Arturo

They say the earlier a child begins to lie the smarter that they are.
It's Okay To Say You're Welcome
     Just let people be themselves.
     Arturo The1  リ壱

Bad Penny II

Quote from: Arturo on May 03, 2018, 02:35:34 PM
They say the earlier a child begins to lie the smarter that they are.

A Wikipedian says:
QuoteA maladaptation (/ˌmælædæpˈteɪʃən/) is a trait that is (or has become) more harmful than helpful, in contrast with an adaptation, which is more helpful than harmful.

How many legs does a Wikipedian have?
Take my advice, don't listen to me.

Arturo

Quote from: Bad Penny II on May 03, 2018, 03:19:32 PM
Quote from: Arturo on May 03, 2018, 02:35:34 PM
They say the earlier a child begins to lie the smarter that they are.

A Wikipedian says:
QuoteA maladaptation (/ˌmælædæpˈteɪʃən/) is a trait that is (or has become) more harmful than helpful, in contrast with an adaptation, which is more helpful than harmful.

How many legs does a Wikipedian have?

I mean the child will find things out on their own whether you like it or not.

You aren't going to tell your kid that there are people who actively want to kill them at all hours of the day...Or that this happened:



Also we hate you because you cry and demand a lot.
It's Okay To Say You're Welcome
     Just let people be themselves.
     Arturo The1  リ壱

billy rubin

i dont lie, 3xcept by miztake. when i discover i have lied, i go back and correct myself. i have not been perfect, but i can remember every lie i have uttered for at least the last  30 years. all of them bother me and always will.

lying iui s a big deal, and cuts to the heart of our relationships with other people. to lie to someone is the ultimate act of disrezpect, because you are telling them that they are unworthy of knowing the truth about the world that you know. lies intended to decieve you to do you harm are beyond any redemption. they qualify as assaults in the same way as hitti g you over the head with a club.

the dementia example is painful, but no different from a doctor looking you in the eye and lying to you about your fatal diagnosis. i wouldnt lie to the dementia patient. i wouldnt necessarilly answer though.choosing not to provide truth is different from misrepresenting it.

when someone lies to me, i never take what they say at face value again. how could i do otherwise? i dont always check up on what they say, because not everything i s important. but trust is never recoverable.

the big question for me has always been the jew in the closet. i dont think there is a more fundamental moral test, and i have never been able to answer the questions it raizes.


"I cannot understand the popularity of that kind of music, which is based on repetition. In a civilized society, things don't need to be said more than three times."

Dark Lightning

I don't have much use for lying or liars. Lying requires one to keep track of what story was told to whom, and I don't have time for that.

billy rubin

that's true.

many years ago i successfully lied my way through a polygraph test to get a job as a cashier (not hard to do if you know how polygraph tests work). for a long time ikept a list of what i had lied about in a drawer so that i could remember what the story was that i had used.

then one day i said that's not who i want to be, and tossed it out. now i tell the truth exclusively and don't have to remember alternate stories.


"I cannot understand the popularity of that kind of music, which is based on repetition. In a civilized society, things don't need to be said more than three times."

Dark Lightning

I have a bitch of a time passing a polygraph, and I hadn't done anything wrong. Then, I know people who cruise right through them that I wouldn't trust any further than I could throw them.

billy rubin

you have to know how the particular one they're using works. back then they were analog, with a chest strap, i think, to measure changes in your breathing, and then some sort of electrodes to look at changesin skin conductivity.

the operator would set you up and ask a series of innocuous questions to derive a control, and then ask a series of important questions.

what you did was make sure that you manipulated your body for the control questions. tensing your chest very slightly, increasing breathing rate very sightly, to register with more nervous-looking settings than normal. can't do much with skin conductivity. might have been something looking at heart rate. it's been a long time.

then when the operator asked critical questions, you just relaxed. any physical reactions you had were more similar to the control. i dunno what the guy thought of me, but they sent me off the circle K to handle money right afterwards. i wasn't dishonest, but i didn't feel like going on record about the pretty heavy drug use that was receding into my past at the time.


"I cannot understand the popularity of that kind of music, which is based on repetition. In a civilized society, things don't need to be said more than three times."

Inertialmass

That's fascinating.  I met another online Quaker who too claimed publicly never to lie.  Is that like a Quaker thing?  A special vow?

My default assumption would be that mature adults generally don't lie, lest it be that benign white lie, so why gratuitously even broach it or braggadociate upon it?


jumbojak

Bullshitting is lying? That's like... My favorite hobby. Every story gets better in the retelling!

"Amazing what chimney sweeping can teach us, no? Keep your fire hot and
your flue clean."  - Ecurb Noselrub

"I'd be incensed by your impudence were I not so impressed by your memory." - Siz

xSilverPhinx

Quote from: Bad Penny II on May 03, 2018, 02:00:18 PM
The deliberate act of deviating from the truth.
That'll do as a definition, bullshitting is lying.

I don't accept the absolute that lying should never be done.
I cite the dementia patient who asks "when will my wife be here?"
Carer says later, even though the wife's long dead.
If the carer said she was dead, dementia guy'd be upset for hours.
Wouldn't know why after a while but still would be.
Same thing day after day until he died or the rot removed the memory.
But dementia guy isn't full faculty, this example doesn't satisfy for normal human interaction.
Fair point Green Me, so lying to children... [beard stroking smiley]

I avoid lying, I don't like doing it and it is a truism that it complicates things.

When someone lies to you, what do you think of the person?
How does it effect future interaction?
Anyway the subject is lying and Bill and Monica are welcome.

A seriously complicated issue with lots more grey area than black-and-white. Omissions (is that lying too?), white lies, etc are important social buffers. I don't like lying but I see the necessity for white lies in some cases, to protect others from harmful truths they don't really need to know and to protect myself from others who would harm me. Relationships change and people change with time and in such a world you don't want to be used and abused because of your true feelings or information that makes you vulnerable.

If someone lies to me, after the initial anger and distrust I would analyse their intent and, depending on their motives decide to trust them -- or not -- after that, and if I decide their lying was justified I'd work to slowly build that trust again. It isn't easy but can be done.

As for people who say they never lie, I tend to believe that is in itself a lie. ;) Some people might genuinely believe they always speak the truth, others say they do in order to manipulate victims and erode skepticism. I'm generally wary.
I am what survives if it's slain - Zack Hemsey


Anne D.

I'm sure I lie constantly in social situations with acquaintances about inconsequential things. I don't think I could survive them otherwise.

Icarus

Is it OK to lie about the size of the fish I caught?  Sometimes we lie when we think, or at least wish, that we ere telling the truth.

Then there is the other thing described by this sentence:  The older I get the better I was.

Our esteemed president lies for sport it would seem.   He may be the reigning champion of the liars club.

billy rubin

lying is generally consideredvfc acceptable only inbthe context of games,  whereb everyone agrees that bluffing or deception is mutually accepatable.

i tease children by telling them outrageous and obvious lies, making them bigger and bigger until they triumphantly find me out. but if they dont, i dont leave them without telling them what tbe truth really is.

white liez are the onez that are most insifdiouz. those are the lies we tell while making the excuze that the lie is better than tbe truth, for some reason or another. i disagree with that. people tell me that white liez lubricate human relationships. i believe they corrupt them instead.


"I cannot understand the popularity of that kind of music, which is based on repetition. In a civilized society, things don't need to be said more than three times."