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Lying:

Started by Bad Penny II, May 03, 2018, 02:00:18 PM

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Bad Penny II

#15
Quote from: billy rubin on January 01, 2020, 11:23:43 AM

the dementia example is painful, but no different from a doctor looking you in the eye and lying to you about your fatal diagnosis.

I think it is different, it is so obviously different I won't bother wasting keystrokes.


Quote from: billy rubin on January 01, 2020, 11:23:43 AM
i wouldnt lie to the dementia patient. i wouldnt necessarilly answer though.choosing not to provide truth is different from misrepresenting it.

You sound like you've got principles, while you regret the suffering the old fart suffers these are the rules so,,,
He washes his hands
Ye cool Green, he washes his hands like fricken Pontius Bureaucrat.
If you want to be kind to the old farts you lie to them.
If you've got some strict fragile world view you've spent years making up then you don't.
Take my advice, don't listen to me.

billy rubin

nope.

i do have principles. i also have compassion. but lying to anyone is a dishonezt and demeaning rejection of what bazic dignity they have left in their livez.

if i can lie to a dementia patient to keep him happy and ignorant about his dead wife, then i can lie to you to keep you happy and ignorant about my affair with your live one. if the only thing that matters is keeping you happy and ignorant,  i can lie to you about tbe money i steal from your bank account or the political goals i will pursue after you elect me to office.

the dementia example iz difficult. but if integrity doesnt matter in one thing, it doeznt matter in all things. i dont know what i would do in that case, bu5 the 3asy lie is not my first choice.


"I cannot understand the popularity of that kind of music, which is based on repetition. In a civilized society, things don't need to be said more than three times."

xSilverPhinx

Quote from: billy rubin on January 02, 2020, 12:40:34 PM
nope.

i do have principles. i also have compassion. but lying to anyone is a dishonezt and demeaning rejection of what bazic dignity they have left in their livez.

if i can lie to a dementia patient to keep him happy and ignorant about his dead wife, then i can lie to you to keep you happy and ignorant about my affair with your live one. if the only thing that matters is keeping you happy and ignorant,  i can lie to you about tbe money i steal from your bank account or the political goals i will pursue after you elect me to office.

the dementia example iz difficult. but if integrity doesnt matter in one thing, it doeznt matter in all things. i dont know what i would do in that case, bu5 the 3asy lie is not my first choice.

I don't see lying as a dangerous slippery slope. You can tell a white lie here and there without turning into a pathological liar. People as a whole lie, but few are pathological cases. The main difference between white lies and other lies is the first is way less selfish than the other which is mostly for self-serving personal gains. The way I see it, you can't put both in the same morality bag: lying to avoid unnecessary distress in someone else with lying to get away with something.

In the case of a dementia patient who is probably not aware that they are suffering from dementia during less lucid moments will suffer tremendously if you tell them their wife, who they love and think is alive and well, has actually passed away long ago. Besides causing intense emotional distress, it causes mental confusion. Both cause suffering. Why put someone with dementia through that? For what? So you can feel better about yourself because you have integrity while the dementia patient slips in and out of lucidity and will ask for their wife again at another time? I think it's incredibly selfish to do so, just so the person with fixed principles can feel better about themselves because they stuck to their guns.
I am what survives if it's slain - Zack Hemsey


Bad Penny II

Quote from: billy rubin on January 02, 2020, 12:40:34 PM
nope.

i do have principles. i also have compassion. but lying to anyone is a dishonezt and demeaning rejection of what bazic dignity they have left in their livez.

if i can lie to a dementia patient to keep him happy and ignorant about his dead wife, then i can lie to you to keep you happy and ignorant about my affair with your live one. if the only thing that matters is keeping you happy and ignorant,  i can lie to you about tbe money i steal from your bank account or the political goals i will pursue after you elect me to office.

the dementia example iz difficult. but if integrity doesnt matter in one thing, it doeznt matter in all things. i dont know what i would do in that case, bu5 the 3asy lie is not my first choice.

So you have to be cruel 'cause it gets too complicated making exceptions to the rules you made up?
Take my advice, don't listen to me.

Bad Penny II

Decades ago on the TV I saw a religious guy I despise defending his anti abortion stance.

The interviewer introduces the raped woman being forced to carry the rapists' child scenario.

Interviewer says something, asshole replies, ping pong, ping pong, religious asshole says he's trying to be consistent.

I despise it when fuckers make others suffer for the sake of their consistency.
Take my advice, don't listen to me.

billy rubin

i see that i have brought up an awkward question again.


"I cannot understand the popularity of that kind of music, which is based on repetition. In a civilized society, things don't need to be said more than three times."

Siz

Quote from: jumbojak on January 02, 2020, 03:53:26 AM
Bullshitting is lying? That's like... My favorite hobby. Every story gets better in the retelling!
Never let the truth get in the way of a good story!

When one sleeps on the floor one need not worry about falling out of bed - Anton LaVey

The universe is a cold, uncaring void. The key to happiness isn't a search for meaning, it's to just keep yourself busy with unimportant nonsense, and eventually you'll be dead!

jumbojak

Quote from: Siz on January 02, 2020, 02:44:45 PM
Quote from: jumbojak on January 02, 2020, 03:53:26 AM
Bullshitting is lying? That's like... My favorite hobby. Every story gets better in the retelling!
Never let the truth get in the way of a good story!

Exactly! If it weren't for the embellishment of history we wouldn't have Joshua, Hercules, and Paul Bunyan. I take it as my personal responsibility to lead the gullible into believing the unbelievable. Doing so makes the world a far more interesting place.

"Amazing what chimney sweeping can teach us, no? Keep your fire hot and
your flue clean."  - Ecurb Noselrub

"I'd be incensed by your impudence were I not so impressed by your memory." - Siz

Inertialmass

If a number of interlocutors explain to a person the very real damage potential in his single-minded, selfish worldview, and that person replies by claiming that he's this heroic, Socratic pot-stirrer, is that person mildly delusional or is he in fact lying to himself and lying to others?



Magdalena


"I've had several "spiritual" or numinous experiences over the years, but never felt that they were the product of anything but the workings of my own mind in reaction to the universe." ~Recusant

Bad Penny II

Quote from: billy rubin on January 01, 2020, 11:23:43 AM
to lie to someone is the ultimate act of disrezpect, because you are telling them that they are unworthy of knowing the truth about the world that you know.

I could probably think of a more ultimate act of disrezpect.
I think they are cheating, it is disrespectful, I'd put a frowny face on their permanent record, mark 'em as one to be watched, avoid if possible, it's kind of insulting, it seems they think you are a thing to be gamed.

Quote from: billy rubin on January 01, 2020, 11:23:43 AM
lies intended to decieve you to do you harm are beyond any redemption. they qualify as assaults in the same way as hitti g you over the head with a club.

An insult, an assault, I suppose but not in the same way as getting clubbed in the head.

Quote from: billy rubin on January 01, 2020, 11:23:43 AMthe dementia example is painful, but no different from a doctor looking you in the eye and lying to you about your fatal diagnosis.

Why do you say things that maybe share some characteristic but definitely aren't the same are the same?


Quote from: billy rubin on January 01, 2020, 11:23:43 AMi wouldnt lie to the dementia patient. i wouldnt necessarilly answer though.choosing not to provide truth is different from misrepresenting it.

Avoidance may be OK, or maybe disrespectful.
Perhaps a more about you thing than a regarding them thing.
Take my advice, don't listen to me.

Bad Penny II

Quote from: Siz on January 02, 2020, 02:44:45 PM
Quote from: jumbojak on January 02, 2020, 03:53:26 AM
Bullshitting is lying? That's like... My favorite hobby. Every story gets better in the retelling!
Never let the truth get in the way of a good story!

OK, I'm willing to offer a holy dispensation for Bullshit, but only if it's good.
Take my advice, don't listen to me.

Siz

Quote from: billy rubin on January 02, 2020, 12:40:34 PM
nope.

i do have principles. i also have compassion. but lying to anyone is a dishonezt and demeaning rejection of what bazic dignity they have left in their livez.

if i can lie to a dementia patient to keep him happy and ignorant about his dead wife, then i can lie to you to keep you happy and ignorant about my affair with your live one. if the only thing that matters is keeping you happy and ignorant,  i can lie to you about tbe money i steal from your bank account or the political goals i will pursue after you elect me to office.

the dementia example iz difficult. but if integrity doesnt matter in one thing, it doeznt matter in all things. i dont know what i would do in that case, bu5 the 3asy lie is not my first choice.

Whilst currently of sound mind, would you elect to recieve lies in your twighlight, dementia-fuddled years for the sake of an easy ride? I would.
The Golden Rule applies.

When one sleeps on the floor one need not worry about falling out of bed - Anton LaVey

The universe is a cold, uncaring void. The key to happiness isn't a search for meaning, it's to just keep yourself busy with unimportant nonsense, and eventually you'll be dead!

billy rubin

since you have asked me, my answer is no.

lying to me is a dehumanizing act, one which treats me as a fixture to be silenced, like an annoyingly leaky faucet.

treating me with compassion, as a human being deserving of tbought and care, requirez more than an easy lie. it requires care and attention  to who i am, in each and every instance.

in america we drug people in care facilities who present us with decizionz we dont want to deal with. lying to me is no different.


"I cannot understand the popularity of that kind of music, which is based on repetition. In a civilized society, things don't need to be said more than three times."

Bad Penny II

#29
Quote from: billy rubin on January 03, 2020, 01:27:56 PM
since you have asked me, my answer is no.

lying to me is a dehumanizing act, one which treats me as a fixture to be silenced, like an annoyingly leaky faucet.

treating me with compassion, as a human being deserving of tbought and care, requirez more than an easy lie. it requires care and attention  to who i am, in each and every instance.

in america we drug people in care facilities who present us with decizionz we dont want to deal with. lying to me is no different.

Yet evading the question of when my long dead wife is going to visit is respectful.

Drug the old if they're being inconvenient, leave the unwanted young for the rabbits, abort if it's your whim, if the scan says worry abort, I don't care if the old think they deserve better,  they should have walked out into the winter when they still had legs.

You need to make a ridiculous simile to confound those who bother to read your shit.

It's exactly like the parable of old Barney in the scriptures.
Take my advice, don't listen to me.