I just need to say that this angers me. It enrages me. People who riot, loot, and steal only hurt innocent shop owners and residents. A building holding 26 families had to be evacuated when the carpet store on the ground floor was set ablaze by rioters.
Apparently this all began when a boy was killed? All I know is the police are being injured, attacked, and put in very dangerous situations. I think they should be allowed to use deadly force to take care of these morons, not just try to arrest them.... It really bothers me when people riot. It makes me think of the horrible LA riots, which haunted me as a kid watching clips of it on the news.
http://m.yahoo.com/w/news_america/london-rioters-battle-police-shooting-protest-054921704.html?orig_host_hdr=news.yahoo.com&.intl=us&.lang=en-us
What do you think? I worry about my friends near London...
Rioting in London, Liverpool, Birmingham last night.
There were suggestions of something going on in Manchester (where I am), but I think this is untrue. However it is in the interest of the police to suppress what they can in order to halt the momentum.
The attacks are being carried out by groups of young men, not massive groups. 40 or 50 seem to be enough to overwhelm the police. They are of all races and colours and are very young, mainly teenagers.
I'm mainly watching Facebook and Youtube for news.
Although I am a few miles from the city centre, I live on a deprived estate with pleanty of deprived dissafected teenagers. I might do a little panic buying today.
Hey Willow, glad to hear you are alright.
Do you have any idea why the police are not able to keep this group under control ? I have been watching BBC news.
No, I think that if the use of deadly force is what started this riot, it will only escalate it, and the police might lose the support of larger sections of the population, such as the friends and family of those kids who were otherwise not getting negatively involved. It's all downfall from there, IMo.
I'm actually surprised to see, at least in clips that are on YouTube, why the police aren't using some sort of repellant for these people? Don't they have anything? ??? Standing with sheilds and a baston stick won't get anyone very far, especially when you have people throwing things at you and stuff. The police look just as disorganised and disordered as the mobs.
Any linkage to the original police action is now gone. This is just gangs of kids overwhelming the authorities.
If someone is coming at you with a weapon, bottle, plank, whatever-- the police have a right and duty to defend themselves.
These savages are looting and burning buildings with FAMILIES living inside to the ground. I would petsonally love to take an uzi and spray the rioters dead.
Depends, for what has currently been happening in the UK no f'ing way. Somebody that's armed with a gun, bomb or similar form of weapon and is an obvious threat to the public that cant be diffused by restraint then yes, but this should be the last resort with the primary focus on disarming the threat. Just because someone is acting a dick doesn't constitute the government to allow the use of deadly force.
Quote from: Sweetdeath on August 09, 2011, 08:13:42 PM
If someone is coming at you with a weapon, bottle, plank, whatever-- the police have a right and duty to defend themselves.
These savages are looting and burning buildings with FAMILIES living inside to the ground. I would petsonally love to take an uzi and spray the rioters dead.
While I do think the police have a right to use whatever force necessary to defend themselves and society, I think something like that would only injury innocent people as well. I know you weren't being serious (or I think), but just thought I should say that.
Isn't there strict gun control laws where no one is allowed to have a gun in the UK?
Quote from: Munchkin Goddess on August 09, 2011, 08:43:31 PM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on August 09, 2011, 08:13:42 PM
If someone is coming at you with a weapon, bottle, plank, whatever-- the police have a right and duty to defend themselves.
These savages are looting and burning buildings with FAMILIES living inside to the ground. I would petsonally love to take an uzi and spray the rioters dead.
While I do think the police have a right to use whatever force necessary to defend themselves and society, I think something like that would only injury innocent people as well. I know you weren't being serious (or I think), but just thought I should say that.
Isn't there strict gun control laws where no one is allowed to have a gun in the UK?
There are very strict gun laws in the UK. Hand guns cannot be owned by civillians. Rifles and shotguns are allowed but are strictly licenced.
Quote from: Tank on August 09, 2011, 08:48:05 PM
Quote from: Munchkin Goddess on August 09, 2011, 08:43:31 PM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on August 09, 2011, 08:13:42 PM
If someone is coming at you with a weapon, bottle, plank, whatever-- the police have a right and duty to defend themselves.
These savages are looting and burning buildings with FAMILIES living inside to the ground. I would petsonally love to take an uzi and spray the rioters dead.
While I do think the police have a right to use whatever force necessary to defend themselves and society, I think something like that would only injury innocent people as well. I know you weren't being serious (or I think), but just thought I should say that.
Isn't there strict gun control laws where no one is allowed to have a gun in the UK?
There are very strict gun laws in the UK. Hand guns cannot be owned by civillians. Rifles and shotguns are allowed but are strictly licenced.
Why can one own a shotgun, rather than a pistol? O_O
Quote from: Munchkin Goddess on August 09, 2011, 08:49:22 PM
Quote from: Tank on August 09, 2011, 08:48:05 PM
Quote from: Munchkin Goddess on August 09, 2011, 08:43:31 PM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on August 09, 2011, 08:13:42 PM
If someone is coming at you with a weapon, bottle, plank, whatever-- the police have a right and duty to defend themselves.
These savages are looting and burning buildings with FAMILIES living inside to the ground. I would petsonally love to take an uzi and spray the rioters dead.
While I do think the police have a right to use whatever force necessary to defend themselves and society, I think something like that would only injury innocent people as well. I know you weren't being serious (or I think), but just thought I should say that.
Isn't there strict gun control laws where no one is allowed to have a gun in the UK?
There are very strict gun laws in the UK. Hand guns cannot be owned by civillians. Rifles and shotguns are allowed but are strictly licenced.
Why can one own a shotgun, rather than a pistol? O_O
The argument is that rural users require them for pest control and game shooting, and they are difficult to conceal (evidently the cops didn't know about hacksaws).
Quote from: Tank on August 09, 2011, 08:52:05 PM
The argument is that rural users require them for pest control and game shooting, and they are difficult to conceal (evidently the cops didn't know about hacksaws).
Why is it consider game to shoot with a shotgun? Can you even eat an animal being shot with one?
Also, I'm confuse about your comment of hacksaws.
Quote from: Munchkin Goddess on August 09, 2011, 09:23:33 PM
Quote from: Tank on August 09, 2011, 08:52:05 PM
The argument is that rural users require them for pest control and game shooting, and they are difficult to conceal (evidently the cops didn't know about hacksaws).
Why is it consider game to shoot with a shotgun? Can you even eat an animal being shot with one?
Yes, while cleaning the animal one can take out parts they don't wish to eat.
Quote from: MunchkinAlso, I'm confuse about your comment of hacksaws.
Hack saws can be used to make the weapons shorter and thus easy to conceil thereby making the point of allowing large weapons because they're harder to conceil moot.
Quote from: Munchkin Goddess on August 09, 2011, 09:23:33 PM
Quote from: Tank on August 09, 2011, 08:52:05 PM
The argument is that rural users require them for pest control and game shooting, and they are difficult to conceal (evidently the cops didn't know about hacksaws).
Why is it consider game to shoot with a shotgun? Can you even eat an animal being shot with one?
Also, I'm confuse about your comment of hacksaws.
Game shooting is things like pheasants, duck and partridge etc And yes you can eat what you shoot.
A classic crooks weapon is a shotgun with the barrels sawn off so the gun can be concealed under a coat, one would use a hacksaw to cut the barrels off.
I will be less cryptic in future ;D
Well I know you can eat what you shoot, but wouldn't it be a pain taking the piece out of an animal you just killed with a shotgun? Granted, I don't know much about guns (unless it's a gun in a video game); however, doesn't the thing being shot have multiple tiny shotgun bullets in the wound?
Getting off topic... XD
I went out for a quick panic buy this morning, while the yobs were in bed.
So we are home and safe and my city is on fire. I'm not close enough to smell the smoke.
There are lots of them tonight. Hundreds, maybe more than a thousand. More heading in by the sound of Twitter.
I don't think the police should be shooting them, but a water cannon or maybe some tear gas wouldn't hurt.
It's scary but I am not praying for Manchester tonight.
I have been following this only superficially, but do they still have some sort of cause or are they just ganging up to loot and vandalise property? ???
I think that shotguns are pretty standard for game hunting because you don't have to be a perfect shot to actually kill the animal with the first hit.
Anyway, considering how mob mentality makes people do things they may otherwise restrain themselves from doing I think it's a good idea to avoid deadly force if at all possible.
There has to be some sort of something that can be used to knock them all out without killing them or getting too close for the police's safety....some sort of gas or something.
Quote from: Whitney on August 10, 2011, 03:23:29 AMThere has to be some sort of something that can be used to knock them all out without killing them or getting too close for the police's safety....some sort of gas or something.
Maybe zats could be used?
Some years ago our revered Ignoble Prize winning science commentator Doctor Carl, commented on the breaking of the Moscow theater hostage crisis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_theater_hostage_crisis). The Russians used gas to end the siege, 150 of 850 hostages were killed by the gas. Doctor Carl thought the survival rate was as good a result as you could hope for in such circumstances. People occasionally die from expertly applied and controlled anaesthetics. After watching movies I wonder why we bother with anaesthetists at all, a good bump on the head with a gun butt should do. Years of med training shouldn't be needed, just a few Bruce Willis movies should do the trick.
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on August 09, 2011, 06:38:18 PM
No, I think that if the use of deadly force is what started this riot, it will only escalate it..
Well put, SilverPhin.
Quote from: Munchkin Goddess on August 09, 2011, 10:00:53 PM
Well I know you can eat what you shoot, but wouldn't it be a pain taking the piece out of an animal you just killed with a shotgun? Granted, I don't know much about guns (unless it's a gun in a video game); however, doesn't the thing being shot have multiple tiny shotgun bullets in the wound?
Yep. Shot is a pain and many a dentist has profited fixing the teeth of people who have bitten down carelessly on a piece of bird shot hidden in a slice of game pie. There is not normally a lot of shot in a bird as if the shooter is close to get a lot of shot in the bird the bird is normally shredded.
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on August 09, 2011, 10:15:29 PM
I have been following this only superficially, but do they still have some sort of cause or are they just ganging up to loot and vandalise property? ???
The first riot in London was sparked by a peaceful protest about the police shooting an alleged criminal. In all the other areas there is no excuse at all; it's just teenage vandalism and plain looting. A BBC radio reporter was talking to some kids in Manchester last night; they were quite clear: they were doing it solely for the loot and had cynically calculated that there was very little chance of any serious consequences.
I think the police should be allowed in riot situations to deploy baton rounds (rubber bullets) and CS gas.
Quote from: Evilbeagle on August 10, 2011, 11:50:08 AM
I think the police should be allowed in riot situations to deploy baton rounds (rubber bullets) and CS gas.
Apparently both these options are at their disposal, if they want to use them.
Quote from: Tank on August 10, 2011, 12:39:25 PM
Quote from: Evilbeagle on August 10, 2011, 11:50:08 AM
I think the police should be allowed in riot situations to deploy baton rounds (rubber bullets) and CS gas.
Apparently both these options are at their disposal, if they want to use them.
Any reason why they haven't yet?
Quote from: Sweetdeath on August 09, 2011, 10:03:14 PM
Getting off topic... XD
Sorry for getting off topic...
Quote from: OldGit on August 10, 2011, 10:00:06 AM
The first riot in London was sparked by a peaceful protest about the police shooting an alleged criminal.
I've read on the Sky News website that the UK Independent Police Complaints Commission have said there is no evidence that Mr Duggan opened fire on police before they shot him dead.
This is worrying as the police's stated reason for shooting the man dead was that he opened fire on them.
Quote from: Munchkin Goddess on August 10, 2011, 05:16:56 PM
Quote from: Tank on August 10, 2011, 12:39:25 PM
Quote from: Evilbeagle on August 10, 2011, 11:50:08 AM
I think the police should be allowed in riot situations to deploy baton rounds (rubber bullets) and CS gas.
Apparently both these options are at their disposal, if they want to use them.
Any reason why they haven't yet?
No real idea myself but if I had to guess they will be using minimum force because at the moment the police are the good guys and they don't want to lose that edge. Rubber bullets also have a historical connection to the trouble in Northern Island, to use them on the mainland would be tantamount to admitting there was no alternative and that civil order had broken down. There is also the small possibility of a fatality and as things are calming down a bit I don't think the authorities want to re-escalate the situation.
Oh and some bright spark has found a law from the 1870's that allows the victim of riot damage to sue the police authority for their losses. This is good as it means that those without insurance can get recompense.
Quote from: Evilbeagle on August 10, 2011, 06:11:35 PM
Quote from: OldGit on August 10, 2011, 10:00:06 AM
The first riot in London was sparked by a peaceful protest about the police shooting an alleged criminal.
I've read on the Sky News website that the UK Independent Police Complaints Commission have said there is no evidence that Mr Duggan opened fire on police before they shot him dead.
This is worrying as the police's stated reason for shooting the man dead was that he opened fire on them.
Apparently this is the case and that both bullets find at the scene came frompolice weapons. Apparently there was gun there but no evidence it was fired.
[conspiracy] The police, facing budget cuts, set out to provoke a know felon into shooting at them with the intention of killing him in 'self defence' knowing the death of a coloured man would spark violence. The police are then a bit tardy in response to the relatives of the dead man and the family become a focus of a anti-police protest. The police encourage the confrontation, thus demonstrating the fact that the police budgets can't be cut. [/conspiracy]
At this point no politician could possibly survive pushing through cuts to the police budget.
Shit there are loads of youths gathered around the clock tower playing medieval instruments badly.
When will this senseless luteing come to an end?
Riot fail: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p39ULW_xzUE&feature=feedlik (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p39ULW_xzUE&feature=feedlik)
Seriously if the police are going to nothing except wait for the rioting to dissipate, then they should at least call the army in to block these people.
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on August 10, 2011, 09:02:20 PM
Riot fail: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p39ULW_xzUE&feature=feedlik (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p39ULW_xzUE&feature=feedlik)
Seriously if the police are going to nothing except wait for the rioting to dissipate, then they should at least call the army in to block these people.
Wow, that's ridiculous..... :-/
I don't know, if it's just to occupy and try to dissipate the rioters, the police don't seem able to do their job. They're vastly outnumbered.
The London police are a joke. This should of been dealt with using gas and other means of force days ago. Now thanks to these rioters, dozens of families are homeless!
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on August 10, 2011, 09:02:20 PM
Riot fail: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p39ULW_xzUE&feature=feedlik (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p39ULW_xzUE&feature=feedlik)
Seriously if the police are going to nothing except wait for the rioting to dissipate, then they should at least call the army in to block these people.
hahaha that link is brilliant
I think the police have taken a much wiser approach to the situation, with the police focus on arresting those involved instead of the usual tactic of aggression which we have seen from past riots inflames the situations. If you look at the current stats of riot related arrests made throughout the UK compared with either the 1981 and 2001 riots the latest figures by far outweigh the other two combined. The majority perspective of the rioters are seen as opportunistic thugs and scum with no sympathy for there actions, unlike other riots in the past which gained sympathy from the public due to there causes.
The approach is still massively flawed, my main problem being that the softer approach has caused the rise of vigilante groups, in some cases with disastrous results and now with the EDL getting involved (which always makes things worse) the police will not only have to deal with rioters but hateful aggressive racist scumbags as well, which from the way channel 4 news was painting the picture may tap into new riots of entirely different reasons (but no other news channel was highlighting this comparison at the time). The riots also highlight that the police have no way of being able to round up large numbers of people in short periods of time without taking more police off the streets, which to me implies they need some sort of mobile lock-ups that can be quickly and effectively filled without a loss to forces on the street.
In riots people are always made homeless, property is always destroyed, and business are always lost, that's the facts of riots. The best thing the police can do is try and reduce the number of deaths and serious injuries as the rest is material, can be rebuilt and is covered by insurance.
I'm not advocating an aggressive us of the army, but the police's strategy, by what is seems is to block the rioters and wait things out. It seems that it's a case of occupying one's own country. I agree that the use of violence will only escalate the situation.
It seems that the police are incapable of doing their job because they're vastly outnumbered. And for some reason they're not using anything as a repellant (if that's still the case).
And vigilante groups are just as bad. There are loads of opportunistic scum among those as well which only make things worse.
(I find these sorts of situations with mobs of brainless buffoons nerve-wrecking. All I think is BLOCK! BLOCK!)
I think the next logical step would be to use tasers, rubber bullets, gas, etc. to dispel the mobs rather than over-react by sending the military in to do the police's job or mowing people down with automatic weapons when they're not threatening anyone's life directly. Seems police over-reaction started the whole thing, I certainly don't see that situation improving by killing civilians or even waving military-grade weapons at them. From where I sit it looks similar to the situations in the middle east where popular distrust for those in power is boiling over. With the global economic crisis, it doesn't surprise me. Tank, that comment was brilliant. The luteing should definitely be stopped at all costs.
The problem is that probably 95% of the police are not competently trained or qualified to use firearms or tasers.
I would not support any move to allow the use of weapons of any kind other than batons and tear gas by non
firearms-trained police. >:(
If the situation calls for highly trained officers with weapons and the force doesn't have enough people then it is time
for the deployment of the military.
My reasoning for this is due to the De Menezes case where police officers murdered an innocent police claiming they thought
he was a terrorist and then lied about it afterwards. Well, they would, wouldn't they ? >:(
Quote from: DaemonWulf on August 26, 2011, 07:38:43 PM
The luteing should definitely be stopped at all costs.
I'm sorry, but this typo made me laugh so hard. I pictured a mob of bards, running down the streets, playing songs on their lutes to annoy business owners. xD
Quote from: Sweetdeath on August 27, 2011, 10:34:03 PM
I'm sorry, but this typo made me laugh so hard. I pictured a mob of bards, running down the streets, playing songs on their lutes to annoy business owners. xD
No, it was intentional... I was responding to Tank's sillyassedness:
Quote from: Tank on August 10, 2011, 07:20:27 PM
Shit there are loads of youths gathered around the clock tower playing medieval instruments badly.
When will this senseless luteing come to an end?
Quote from: DaemonWulf on August 30, 2011, 02:20:20 AM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on August 27, 2011, 10:34:03 PM
I'm sorry, but this typo made me laugh so hard. I pictured a mob of bards, running down the streets, playing songs on their lutes to annoy business owners. xD
No, it was intentional... I was responding to Tank's sillyassedness:
Quote from: Tank on August 10, 2011, 07:20:27 PM
Shit there are loads of youths gathered around the clock tower playing medieval instruments badly.
When will this senseless luteing come to an end?
Oooh, ok!
It's still funny anyway xP