I was hoping, if you don't mind of course, if you could tell us a bit more about why you're struggling. It might help to get others to know more about where you're coming from and why many of your arguments look so theistic in nature.
Have you always been an atheist, for instance? Do you live in a highly religious area, what is that like? Would you consider yourself to be a more scientifically inclined person and like reading up on science? I ask because from my limited experience, people who don't know that many alternative explanations tend to accept the god argument more easily. Not that there couldn't be people who see the world as having both naturalistic and metaphysical explanations (non over-lapping magesteria)...
Do you want to be a theist?
(edited original to include atheists with lingering struggles from their post-theistic lives instead of directing the questions at one in particular)
Yeah, I would love to be a theist. It definitely leads to a happier life I think. If I had a choice, of course I'd chose there to be a God and to live after death. Unfortunately, I'm a realist and I don't think this is true. I grew up in a religious family. I'm an undergraduate biology student graduating this year, decided to become atheist about half a year ago. It's still kinda difficult because I'm just plain scared that if God does exist I might go to hell. I mean, I'm not 100% sure he doesn't exist, somewhere around 80%ish that he doesn't exist.
I'm struggling also because I need to take a bit of a leap of faith to believe there is no God. It's a small one I think though. Given that we have a planet and we have a self replicating molecule like a bacteria, I'm pretty confident purely natural explanations are sufficient to turn that into all life we see over 3.8 billion years. But I'm not so confident that a self replicating molecule could arise from regular molecules. A single bacteria is so complex that just looking at how its genetic machinery works sometimes makes me think "wow, how in the heck did something so complex arise from naturalistic processes?". But perhaps something simpler than bacteria evolved into it but is not extinct. In other words, if you go back in time far enough the self replicating molecule was probably simpler and simpler. You get to a point where it's not too ridiculous to think pure chance could have arranged molecules in a way that they chemically formed a self replicating molecule. Anyway, I'm pretty sure it's a tiny leap of faith to believe this occurred (as well as natural processes like gravity acting on star dust forming our planet and sun), compared to the gigantic leap of faith that there's some invisible man living up there and we continue living in another dimension after we die for eternity. This latter one seems almost like a fairy tale.
In all honesty, the whole question's pretty open for me. I'm not struggling at all. Just wondering, really. I'd tend towards 'atheist-ish', maybe 'agnostic' if pegged down, but I rarely use those terms at all, and just describe myself generally as a secular humanist and leave it at that for most folks, and most understand what I mean by that.
Here's my basic background: I was raised Catholic, and flirted on and off with Catholicism, Protestantism, and secular humanism for years. Back then, yeah, I'd definitely say I was struggling to find 'the truth'.
Over the last few years, I've since concluded that I'm fine with saying when it comes to God existing, the jury's out, although from what I've seen and learned, I'd lean heavily towards 'No'. If I ever found conclusive proof that a being had in fact created the Universe, set it in motion, and then let it go about its business... I'd be fine with that and it would make some sense to me, really, considering the incredible intricacy of everything. That being said, I love science, and suspect that the universe probably IS entirely natural... but hey, we should be open to changing our views, should the evidence ever present itself.
It's more important to me, personally, to focus on what I DO know to be true: my fellow human beings need care, compassion, help, etc regardless of what they do or don't believe.
There is another dimension to it: Some people struggle to maintain their non-militant atheist perspective. That there is something I, for one, have failed miserably...
In any case, that would make them struggling atheists, just not struggling with atheism vs. theism.
That is a very good point asmo. I have struggled with this as well. I like to force myself to be non-militant in order to live more positively overall. Sometimes it can be a struggle because not keeping my head in the game is like a sign of weakness in a way.
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on January 18, 2012, 03:44:45 PM
(edited original to include atheists with lingering struggles from their post-theistic lives instead of directing the questions at one in particular)
I don't think I have lingering struggles so much as lingering openness to the possibility. Something that actually qualifies as evidence, or a really good reason to behave as if a god exists and I'm willing to change my mind. I just can't do the worship part -- I'm not trying to be difficult, and I don't think I'm "prideful", I just don't have a worshipful nature. Religious worship is like romantic obsession and my emotions don't go into the extreme range.
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on January 20, 2012, 04:20:32 AM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on January 18, 2012, 03:44:45 PM
(edited original to include atheists with lingering struggles from their post-theistic lives instead of directing the questions at one in particular)
I don't think I have lingering struggles so much as lingering openness to the possibility. Something that actually qualifies as evidence, or a really good reason to behave as if a god exists and I'm willing to change my mind. I just can't do the worship part -- I'm not trying to be difficult, and I don't think I'm "prideful", I just don't have a worshipful nature. Religious worship is like romantic obsession and my emotions don't go into the extreme range.
I'm in the same camp you're in, here. :) If sufficient evidence came up to actually believe, OK, I'd be willing to change my mind and just believe. Worship, on the other hand, doesn't work with my emotional range either. I love and appreciate my family and friends, but I'd never think of worshiping anyone or anything, mostly because I don't obsess, fawn, or drool over anything. I'd be fine with similarly appreciating a Creator, but fawning over? Nope. :)
Quote from: Asmodean on January 19, 2012, 11:22:45 PM
There is another dimension to it: Some people struggle to maintain their non-militant atheist perspective. That there is something I, for one, have failed miserably...
In any case, that would make them struggling atheists, just not struggling with atheism vs. theism.
I couldn't agree more. The more I hang around theists the more their views annoy me.
Quote from: Amicale on January 20, 2012, 04:30:58 AM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on January 20, 2012, 04:20:32 AM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on January 18, 2012, 03:44:45 PM
(edited original to include atheists with lingering struggles from their post-theistic lives instead of directing the questions at one in particular)
I don't think I have lingering struggles so much as lingering openness to the possibility. Something that actually qualifies as evidence, or a really good reason to behave as if a god exists and I'm willing to change my mind. I just can't do the worship part -- I'm not trying to be difficult, and I don't think I'm "prideful", I just don't have a worshipful nature. Religious worship is like romantic obsession and my emotions don't go into the extreme range.
I'm in the same camp you're in, here. :) If sufficient evidence came up to actually believe, OK, I'd be willing to change my mind and just believe. Worship, on the other hand, doesn't work with my emotional range either. I love and appreciate my family and friends, but I'd never think of worshiping anyone or anything, mostly because I don't obsess, fawn, or drool over anything. I'd be fine with similarly appreciating a Creator, but fawning over? Nope. :)
yeah, the thought of worshipping anything totally goes against my nature, and I can't believe that any god(s) would want us to worship them if they did exist. I imagine the whole worship thing might date from a time when gods were linked to royalty and religion was a tool used by authoritarian regimes to justify their rule.
Quote from: Too Few Lions on January 20, 2012, 11:46:18 AMI imagine the whole worship thing might date from a time when gods were linked to royalty and religion was a tool used by authoritarian regimes to justify their rule.
Ye the "lord" thing kind of gives it away.
YODACHODA said :'Yeah, I would love to be a theist. It definitely leads to a happier life I think'
Reply: This is an interesting statement ; why do you see atheism as a less happier life ?
Blissful ignorance is bliss, or so they say...
Quote from: Asmodean on January 20, 2012, 04:19:55 PM
Blissful ignorance is bliss, or so they say...
I don't know about that, most of the angry people I know are angry because they're ignorant.
Quote from: Davin on January 20, 2012, 04:24:01 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on January 20, 2012, 04:19:55 PM
Blissful ignorance is bliss, or so they say...
I don't know about that, most of the angry people I know are angry because they're ignorant.
In my experience, it's usually more because they are ignorant, but refuse to admit it - even to themselves.
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 20, 2012, 04:09:59 PM
YODACHODA said :'Yeah, I would love to be a theist. It definitely leads to a happier life I think'
Reply: This is an interesting statement ; why do you see atheism as a less happier life ?
I get this. I don't necessarily think that theism would lead to a happier life, but I understand how it helps with some of the harder parts of life. Like for me, I have to admit that I'm kind of....scared of death, I guess. Like, I think about not existing any more, and I know that it won't matter to me then, but I really want to keep existing. I want to know what the world is like in a thousand years, or a million, and it makes me sad that no part of my consciousness will be around to witness it. I think about the people I love dying, my parents, my brother, my husband, my son, and it's a punch in the stomach. How lovely would it be to believe that even once they die, we'll all be together again someday. Accepting their mortality and my own is the hardest part of atheism to me. I also understand how hard it is to realize that you are powerless against an indifferent world. When catastrophes happen, often we can't do much to help with them. Some larger catastrophes like natural disasters give you the opportunity to donate money and/or services to feel like you are doing something, but often smaller more personal tragedies (like a friend developing cancer) leave you feeling like there is little that you can do to help, other than be there to support them, bring them food, et cetera. But with those personal tragedies, you want to do more! You want to be able to heal them, make it better! And most often, you can't. So I can see why prayer is seductive, making you feel like just maybe, you can help them heal. My bottom line is, I don't think atheism is for the faint of heart. I think it takes a certain kind of courage to stare into the abyss, so to speak, and not turn to comforting fairy tales.
Quote from: Ali on January 20, 2012, 05:23:55 PM
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 20, 2012, 04:09:59 PM
YODACHODA said :'Yeah, I would love to be a theist. It definitely leads to a happier life I think'
Reply: This is an interesting statement ; why do you see atheism as a less happier life ?
I get this. I don't necessarily think that theism would lead to a happier life, but I understand how it helps with some of the harder parts of life. Like for me, I have to admit that I'm kind of....scared of death, I guess. Like, I think about not existing any more, and I know that it won't matter to me then, but I really want to keep existing. I want to know what the world is like in a thousand years, or a million, and it makes me sad that no part of my consciousness will be around to witness it. I think about the people I love dying, my parents, my brother, my husband, my son, and it's a punch in the stomach. How lovely would it be to believe that even once they die, we'll all be together again someday. Accepting their mortality and my own is the hardest part of atheism to me. I also understand how hard it is to realize that you are powerless against an indifferent world. When catastrophes happen, often we can't do much to help with them. Some larger catastrophes like natural disasters give you the opportunity to donate money and/or services to feel like you are doing something, but often smaller more personal tragedies (like a friend developing cancer) leave you feeling like there is little that you can do to help, other than be there to support them, bring them food, et cetera. But with those personal tragedies, you want to do more! You want to be able to heal them, make it better! And most often, you can't. So I can see why prayer is seductive, making you feel like just maybe, you can help them heal. My bottom line is, I don't think atheism is for the faint of heart. I think it takes a certain kind of courage to stare into the abyss, so to speak, and not turn to comforting fairy tales.
What you said was pretty profound because I share in your assessment regarding death as well as suffering . I guess in this sense, atheism doesnt nor cant offer any solace or true hope beyond the grave. Whereas if the Christian Faith for example turns out to be true, then, it would offer something very substantial in this regard , namely, that this world would not be all there is and that the struggles, suffering, and physical death we experience wouldnt have the final say . As for life after death, from the study ive done on this topic, there is very good evidence that our consciousness does continue after our physical body flatlines. A really good unbiased book on this subject is one called :'To Hell and Back' written by a Surgeon named Dr. Maurice Rawlings who as an atheist started recording and documenting actual accounts of people dying then being resussitated in his presence . I couldnt put the book down.
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 20, 2012, 04:09:59 PM
YODACHODA said :'Yeah, I would love to be a theist. It definitely leads to a happier life I think'
Reply: This is an interesting statement ; why do you see atheism as a less happier life ?
Because theists have an excuse for everything. If there is a God nobody is responsible for anything we're just playthings and puppets of something we can't possibly understand.
Quote from: Tank on January 20, 2012, 05:59:55 PM
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 20, 2012, 04:09:59 PM
YODACHODA said :'Yeah, I would love to be a theist. It definitely leads to a happier life I think'
Reply: This is an interesting statement ; why do you see atheism as a less happier life ?
Because theists have an excuse for everything. If there is a God nobody is responsible for anything we're just playthings and puppets of something we can't possibly understand.
How does 'Theists having an answer for everything' result in an atheist having a less happier life (as the Poster YodaChoda declared) ? What is the tie to that ?!
If there is a God that gave us our self evident moral conscience to live morally by , then it WOULD make us responsible for our actions ; if there IS a personal intelligent Creator (God) who fashioned the entire Universe including all the required many laws of physics so Earth could sustain human life...then we would hardly be inconsequential playthings and puppets . And further, given this extreme example of planning and excersised care...it WOULD be possible to understand. I guess theres alot riding on atheism --- things which I have contemplated many times myself.
Quote from: Asmodean on January 20, 2012, 04:41:15 PM
Quote from: Davin on January 20, 2012, 04:24:01 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on January 20, 2012, 04:19:55 PM
Blissful ignorance is bliss, or so they say...
I don't know about that, most of the angry people I know are angry because they're ignorant.
In my experience, it's usually more because they are ignorant, but refuse to admit it - even to themselves.
I find this to be the case most of the times as well.
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 20, 2012, 06:23:54 PM
Quote from: Tank on January 20, 2012, 05:59:55 PM
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 20, 2012, 04:09:59 PM
YODACHODA said :'Yeah, I would love to be a theist. It definitely leads to a happier life I think'
Reply: This is an interesting statement ; why do you see atheism as a less happier life ?
Because theists have an excuse for everything. If there is a God nobody is responsible for anything we're just playthings and puppets of something we can't possibly understand.
How does 'Theists having an answer for everything' result in an atheist having a less happier life (as the Poster YodaChoda declared) ? What is the tie to that ?!
It's the difference between a child (theist) and adult (atheist). All things being equal children are generally happier than adults because they don't have to solve problems nor take responsiblity. Theists take the childish easy way out.
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 20, 2012, 06:23:54 PM
If there is a God that gave us our self evident moral conscience to live morally by , then it WOULD make us responsible for our actions ; if there IS a personal intelligent Creator (God) who fashioned the entire Universe including all the required many laws of physics so Earth could sustain human life...then we would hardly be inconsequential playthings and puppets . And further, given this extreme example of planning and excersised care...it WOULD be possible to understand. I guess theres alot riding on atheism --- things which I have contemplated many times myself.
If people keep basing their thinking on mythology humanity is fucked, pure and simple.
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 20, 2012, 05:54:02 PM
Whereas if the Christian Faith for example turns out to be true, then, it would offer something very substantial in this regard , namely, that this world would not be all there is and that the struggles, suffering, and physical death we experience wouldnt have the final say .
I believe this is called a Siren Song. I can't believe in something simply because wouldn't it be nice. I'm not made that way.
Quote from: Ali on January 20, 2012, 05:23:55 PM
I get this. I don't necessarily think that theism would lead to a happier life, but I understand how it helps with some of the harder parts of life. Like for me, I have to admit that I'm kind of....scared of death, I guess. Like, I think about not existing any more, and I know that it won't matter to me then, but I really want to keep existing.
I always think of this quote by mark twain.... "I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it."
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 20, 2012, 05:54:02 PM
Quote from: Ali on January 20, 2012, 05:23:55 PM
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 20, 2012, 04:09:59 PM
YODACHODA said :'Yeah, I would love to be a theist. It definitely leads to a happier life I think'
Reply: This is an interesting statement ; why do you see atheism as a less happier life ?
I get this. I don't necessarily think that theism would lead to a happier life, but I understand how it helps with some of the harder parts of life. Like for me, I have to admit that I'm kind of....scared of death, I guess. Like, I think about not existing any more, and I know that it won't matter to me then, but I really want to keep existing. I want to know what the world is like in a thousand years, or a million, and it makes me sad that no part of my consciousness will be around to witness it. I think about the people I love dying, my parents, my brother, my husband, my son, and it's a punch in the stomach. How lovely would it be to believe that even once they die, we'll all be together again someday. Accepting their mortality and my own is the hardest part of atheism to me. I also understand how hard it is to realize that you are powerless against an indifferent world. When catastrophes happen, often we can't do much to help with them. Some larger catastrophes like natural disasters give you the opportunity to donate money and/or services to feel like you are doing something, but often smaller more personal tragedies (like a friend developing cancer) leave you feeling like there is little that you can do to help, other than be there to support them, bring them food, et cetera. But with those personal tragedies, you want to do more! You want to be able to heal them, make it better! And most often, you can't. So I can see why prayer is seductive, making you feel like just maybe, you can help them heal. My bottom line is, I don't think atheism is for the faint of heart. I think it takes a certain kind of courage to stare into the abyss, so to speak, and not turn to comforting fairy tales.
What you said was pretty profound because I share in your assessment regarding death as well as suffering . I guess in this sense, atheism doesnt nor cant offer any solace or true hope beyond the grave. Whereas if the Christian Faith for example turns out to be true, then, it would offer something very substantial in this regard , namely, that this world would not be all there is and that the struggles, suffering, and physical death we experience wouldnt have the final say . As for life after death, from the study ive done on this topic, there is very good evidence that our consciousness does continue after our physical body flatlines. A really good unbiased book on this subject is one called :'To Hell and Back' written by a Surgeon named Dr. Maurice Rawlings who as an atheist started recording and documenting actual accounts of people dying then being resussitated in his presence . I couldnt put the book down.
I guess I look at death itself from a slightly different perspective. An idealistic one, sure, and some atheists may even roll their eyes at it and I'm OK with that. But I'm a humanist, and a huge part of that for me is seeing death and dying like this: the way we live affects everyone around us, for good or for bad. I've made my share of mistakes and I've screwed up, sure. We all do. But mostly, ideally anyway, I'd like to think that if there's ONE solace or hope when it comes to non-belief, it's that this life IS all we've got. We've got the opportunity to make the most of it, do the best we can, help anyone we can along the way. When we're gone, we don't live on ourselves, but the memories people have of us do, and the actions we've done also live on, in a sense... for better or for worse.
So I guess I see it as a challenge every day, to just do better than I did yesterday. Love better, help better, make more of a difference, etc. I'm NOT scared of actually dying and not being here to see the world after I'm gone. It was fine before I got here, and assuming I don't royally screw it up :D it'll be fine after I go. What I AM scared of is the possibility of not doing something meaningful and helpful with my life while I'm here. If I possibly can, I'd rather leave the world a slightly more interesting, maybe happier if not better place than it was when I got here.
I know it maybe sounds conceited or arrogant, thinking that one life can make enough of an impact in the world, and I truly don't mean to come off that way... but it's honestly not death that scares me. Living with bitterness and hate, without love and community, would scare me far more, but that's just me. I've seen people die. I've sat with them while it happened. When it was over, I was just grateful for the good memories I had of the person, and the difference they'd made in my life.
Quote from: Genericguy on January 20, 2012, 08:12:59 PM
Quote from: Ali on January 20, 2012, 05:23:55 PM
I get this. I don't necessarily think that theism would lead to a happier life, but I understand how it helps with some of the harder parts of life. Like for me, I have to admit that I'm kind of....scared of death, I guess. Like, I think about not existing any more, and I know that it won't matter to me then, but I really want to keep existing.
I always think of this quote by mark twain.... "I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it."
:)
I didn't see this while I was writing my post, but it's good. Mark Twain.. or Samuel Clemens, whichever you prefer, was one very neat guy. And man, did he ever make HIS mark on the world.
Quote from: yodachoda on January 19, 2012, 12:14:13 AM
Yeah, I would love to be a theist. It definitely leads to a happier life I think. If I had a choice, of course I'd chose there to be a God and to live after death.
Yes, and a drunkard is happier then a sober man.
Struggling atheist, it seems many people here feel your not being honest. I think I have a solution. The following is a quote from you in another thread...
"Im somewhat of a struggling Atheist in my pursuit of seeking truth and am no longer concretely committed to atheism or any other religious worldview for that matter..."
You only use Christianity as an alternative to atheism. If instead you used Islam, then that might help ease our suspicions.
Quote from: Genericguy on January 20, 2012, 08:55:28 PM
Struggling atheist, it seems many people here feel your not being honest. I think I have a solution. The following is a quote from you in another thread...
"Im somewhat of a struggling Atheist in my pursuit of seeking truth and am no longer concretely committed to atheism or any other religious worldview for that matter..."
You only use Christianity as an alternative to atheism. If instead you used Islam, then that might help ease our suspicions.
LOL, his confusion about atheism being a religion is a clear giveaway!!!
I think he should try Buddhism. At least its interesting, and would be a nice change from all the christians around here.
Amicale and Genericguy - from my rational, thinking POV, I agree with everything that you have said and have thought much the same. My emotional side is the one that still whines "But I wanna live forever! Me, not just my legacy! Waaaaaaah!" ;)
Quote from: Ali on January 20, 2012, 08:59:07 PM
My emotional side is the one that still whines "But I wanna live forever! Me, not just my legacy! Waaaaaaah!" ;)
So funny! My wife and I have little fake crying fits when ever we don't want to do something.
Quote from: Ali on January 20, 2012, 08:59:07 PM
Amicale and Genericguy - from my rational, thinking POV, I agree with everything that you have said and have thought much the same. My emotional side is the one that still whines "But I wanna live forever! Me, not just my legacy! Waaaaaaah!" ;)
LOL Ali :)
Ha, yeah, I understand, believe me! That reminds me, one day my daughter was tired and cranky and threw herself on the floor and went 'Waaaaaah! I don't WANNA take a nap!' so I threw myself on the floor and went 'Waaaaaah! I don't WANNA cook supper!' and she looked SO shocked and surprised, and then she said 'I take nap if you cook, mama'! :D
Quote from: Genericguy on January 20, 2012, 08:55:28 PM
Struggling atheist, it seems many people here feel your not being honest. I think I have a solution. The following is a quote from you in another thread...
"Im somewhat of a struggling Atheist in my pursuit of seeking truth and am no longer concretely committed to atheism or any other religious worldview for that matter..."
You only use Christianity as an alternative to atheism. If instead you used Islam, then that might help ease our suspicions.
If people in here focused on Islam , then id be responding accordingly. But atheists blast the Christian Faith almost exclusively in here , so if they show a misconception I will bring them the truth from a Christian perspective. At this point in my life, I see an atheistic worldview as painfully lacking logic and I see an abundance of atheists grossly militant toward Christians and Theists . I also see nearly all Atheists as being that way for personal philosophical reasons and void of hard core evidence scientifically -- nearly every crime is done by Perpetrators who hold to moral relativism which is an atheist ideology.....and not from any World Religion . Should i post all of my grieviences about atheism in a fresh thread for you to evaluate ? Would the Forum Administrators even allow that (?)
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 20, 2012, 10:58:41 PM
nearly every crime is done by Perpetrators who hold to moral relativism which is an atheist ideology.....and not from any World Religion .
*Holds sides and laughs.*
Aaaaaaaaahahahahahahahahahhahahahahhahahahahhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
You're funny.
Wait, you're joking right?
Quote from: Ali on January 20, 2012, 11:15:09 PM
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 20, 2012, 10:58:41 PM
nearly every crime is done by Perpetrators who hold to moral relativism which is an atheist ideology.....and not from any World Religion .
*Holds sides and laughs.*
Aaaaaaaaahahahahahahahahahhahahahahhahahahahhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
You're funny.
Wait, you're joking right?
I wish i were. Here...meditate on this : ManMade 'morals' (relative to what he feels like, if any) = Any behavior is permissible. What else could you possibly expect from a moral-relativistic ideology ?? Complete adherence to high morals and ethics ??!!!! Why do you think atheism is really so desirable ? Its because it offers maximized freedom to behave as one wishes ; even the Forum Administrators with their 'F. this and F that' verbage is confirmation enough. Atheism from a sociological standpoint, has to be THE greatest detriment to any society because of no moral rudder wanted ... a ship going in circles. I dont want to be an Atheist ; you dont really want the ideologies of atheism in your society either -- they only spell trouble for you and your loved ones down the road. ie: 1 in 4 women will be assaulted sometime in their life (courtesy of some freethinking atheist who doesnt want to hear about whats right from wrong) .
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 20, 2012, 10:58:41 PMIf people in here focused on Islam , then id be responding accordingly. But atheists blast the Christian Faith almost exclusively in here , so if they show a misconception I will bring them the truth from a Christian perspective.
Members of this forum discuss Islam with Muslims (and there have been a number of Muslim members in the years that I've been here) and Christianity with Christians. It so happens that discussions in which you are involved are focused on Christianity. People have drawn their own conclusions, rightly or wrongly.
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 20, 2012, 10:58:41 PMAt this point in my life, I see an atheistic worldview as painfully lacking logic and I see an abundance of atheists grossly militant toward Christians and Theists .
I got your "grossly militant" right here, pal.
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F1.bp.blogspot.com%2F_yuGrGn6oYns%2FSogtZpzYlVI%2FAAAAAAAAAII%2FS8vq4bRjWf0%2Fs400%2Fmilitant_atheists.jpg&hash=bad86d809ee0d9dcae4a986f0657a73c16e9f11e)
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 20, 2012, 10:58:41 PMI also see nearly all Atheists as being that way for personal philosophical reasons and void of hard core evidence scientifically -- nearly every crime is done by Perpetrators who hold to moral relativism which is an atheist ideology.....and not from any World Religion .
This is funny stuff. Atheists are a tiny percentage of the prison population in the US (http://holysmoke.org/icr-pri.htm); much smaller than the percentage of atheists in the general population. There may be a number of reasons for that, but to say that "atheist ideology" is behind crime is absurd on its face. How do you know what is in the mind of "nearly every crim[inal]"?
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 20, 2012, 10:58:41 PMShould i post all of my grieviences about atheism in a fresh thread for you to evaluate ? Would the Forum Administrators even allow that (?)
That would be good for a few laughs, but you already have a lot on your plate, including a whole thread dedicated to your version of the history of the US (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=9157.0) that you've been ignoring.
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 20, 2012, 06:23:54 PM
us responsible for our actions ;
We are responsible for our actions even if there isn't a god.
If atheism is so sociologically morally degenerate, then why do secular societies are generally better off than religious?
Fact is, it tends to be the opposite really. The more religious a society, the worse off it is.
(And I'm going to mention that Communist Russia and China both had a cult of personality thing going before you bring them up as all theists do, which makes it slightly different from the philosophies that most atheists that are not in Russia or China share)
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 20, 2012, 10:58:41 PM
Quote from: Genericguy on January 20, 2012, 08:55:28 PM
Struggling atheist, it seems many people here feel your not being honest. I think I have a solution. The following is a quote from you in another thread...
"Im somewhat of a struggling Atheist in my pursuit of seeking truth and am no longer concretely committed to atheism or any other religious worldview for that matter..."
You only use Christianity as an alternative to atheism. If instead you used Islam, then that might help ease our suspicions.
If people in here focused on Islam , then id be responding accordingly. But atheists blast the Christian Faith almost exclusively in here , so if they show a misconception I will bring them the truth from a Christian perspective. At this point in my life, I see an atheistic worldview as painfully lacking logic and I see an abundance of atheists grossly militant toward Christians and Theists . I also see nearly all Atheists as being that way for personal philosophical reasons and void of hard core evidence scientifically -- nearly every crime is done by Perpetrators who hold to moral relativism which is an atheist ideology.....and not from any World Religion . Should i post all of my grieviences about atheism in a fresh thread for you to evaluate ? Would the Forum Administrators even allow that (?)
Yes you should...and what do you want your new screen name to be (you don't want me to pick for you, trust me on that) since your current one is a lie and confuses people as to your intentions?
Btw, after giving me your new screen name you'll have to use it to log in. Let me know by tomorrow central time. Fyi, if I pick it will be "Liar For Jesus".
Under SMF you keep using your old screen name even if the display name changes...just rememberd that from when I had mine changed on another SMF forum.
Stealthy Theist ;D Now that's new. ::)
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on January 20, 2012, 11:44:50 PM
If atheism is so sociologically morally degenerate, then why do secular societies are generally better off than religious?
Fact is, it tends to be the opposite really. The more religious a society, the worse off it is.
(And I'm going to mention that Communist Russia and China both had a cult of personality thing going before you bring them up as all theists do, which makes it slightly different from the philosophies that most atheists that are not in Russia or China share)
This clip shows some statistics to back up up SilverPhienix's comment.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdtwTeBPYQA&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL
Quote from: Guardian85 on January 20, 2012, 11:53:41 PM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on January 20, 2012, 11:44:50 PM
If atheism is so sociologically morally degenerate, then why do secular societies are generally better off than religious?
Fact is, it tends to be the opposite really. The more religious a society, the worse off it is.
(And I'm going to mention that Communist Russia and China both had a cult of personality thing going before you bring them up as all theists do, which makes it slightly different from the philosophies that most atheists that are not in Russia or China share)
This clip shows some statistics to back up up SilverPhienix's comment.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdtwTeBPYQA&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL
Thanks for that, I'm feeling particularly lazy today. ;D
I really like Liar for Jesus. :)
Since I kinda doubt he'll respond, it doesn't affect his login, and I plan to be busy...going to change his screen name now.
Struggling Atheist will henceforth be known as Liar For Jesus until he offers up another appropriate screen name. I'm assuming he's a chrsitian since everything he's put forward is related to the christian faith.
SA, consider this your punishment for misrepresenting yourself...I have known for quite some time but was waiting for you to fully hang yourself before doing anything.
Yep. Look up crime rates by religion, prison population by religion, peace index by religion, and it all paints a pretty compelling argument in the opposite direction - atheists commit LESS crime and are more peaceful than their theist counterparts.
I have a theory about why that is. Religion, like the law, is an external control system. With religion, you are good because you fear the consequences of being bad (hell, or whatever.) Just like with the law, you follow it for fear of going to jail. Those are external control systems, and they aren't as effective - they tend to collapse under pressure.
Atheists have to develop an internalized control system. We have to think about what is good, and what is bad, and why. Most of us rely on logic and empathy to make those decisions, and we internalize them. Internal control systems are more reliable, because they run deeper. We know what is good and bad, and why, and we are less likely to throw that knowledge aside under pressure because it becomes a part of our identity. Being good is not something that I do, it is who I am.
I think a lot more violent people are religious because they don't fear the afterlife. My dad told me if you repent to jesus, all your earthy crimes are forgiven.
That really annoyed me.
Quote from: Genericguy on January 20, 2012, 08:12:59 PMI always think of this quote by mark twain.... "I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it."
That sounds clever but it doesn't really offer any solace.
You don't exist and then you do.
Death is the taking away of something I have, it screws with my plans, I consider this an inconvenience.
Julian Barnes says before his birth the universe was working up to its greatest moment, him.
I don't remember his exact words but before him the universe had potential, after he dies it is all a pointless anticlimax.
Quote from: Sweetdeath on January 20, 2012, 11:56:47 PM
I really like Liar for Jesus. :)
LOL, me too. Thanks for the smile, mods!!! :)
It's really bizarre when believers lie for Jesus. You would think that would be against their religion. I guess it goes back to what I said about external controls not being very effective.
Quote from: Ali on January 21, 2012, 01:18:34 AM
It's really bizarre when believers lie for Jesus. You would think that would be against their religion. I guess it goes back to what I said about external controls not being very effective.
Yup yup~ :)
Final words for struggling atheist...
I doubt you will ever understand this, but you are the source of the "militant atheism" you are so desperatly trying to eliminate. Deceit, manipulation, intolerance, and anger is only going strengthen my desire to care slightly be a "militant atheist".
Now that you are being up front about your beliefs, we can finally begin to have a civil discussion. That is unless your banished, don't come back, or are simply unable to be civil towards atheists.
Welcome to the forum, liar for Jesus.
Quote from: Ali on January 20, 2012, 06:50:21 PM
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 20, 2012, 05:54:02 PM
Whereas if the Christian Faith for example turns out to be true, then, it would offer something very substantial in this regard , namely, that this world would not be all there is and that the struggles, suffering, and physical death we experience wouldnt have the final say .
I believe this is called a Siren Song. I can't believe in something simply because wouldn't it be nice. I'm not made that way.
Totally understand this. I've never felt the slightest desire to meet a god, but I'd give a lot to be able to see my Dad again, I just can't talk myself into believing it's likely no matter how much I want it. I will say it's a lot easier for me to understand now how some people
can talk themselves into it tho.
Quote from: AmicaleSo I guess I see it as a challenge every day, to just do better than I did yesterday. Love better, help better, make more of a difference, etc. I'm NOT scared of actually dying and not being here to see the world after I'm gone. It was fine before I got here, and assuming I don't royally screw it up it'll be fine after I go. What I AM scared of is the possibility of not doing something meaningful and helpful with my life while I'm here. If I possibly can, I'd rather leave the world a slightly more interesting, maybe happier if not better place than it was when I got here.
I know it maybe sounds conceited or arrogant, thinking that one life can make enough of an impact in the world, and I truly don't mean to come off that way... but it's honestly not death that scares me.
I don't think it sounds conceited or arrogant at all, it seems to me a very healthy way to look at and deal with something that's disagreeable but inevitable.
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on January 21, 2012, 04:45:17 AM
Quote from: Ali on January 20, 2012, 06:50:21 PM
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 20, 2012, 05:54:02 PM
Whereas if the Christian Faith for example turns out to be true, then, it would offer something very substantial in this regard , namely, that this world would not be all there is and that the struggles, suffering, and physical death we experience wouldnt have the final say .
I believe this is called a Siren Song. I can't believe in something simply because wouldn't it be nice. I'm not made that way.
Totally understand this. I've never felt the slightest desire to meet a god, but I'd give a lot to be able to see my Dad again, I just can't talk myself into believing it's likely no matter how much I want it. I will say it's a lot easier for me to understand now how some people can talk themselves into it tho.
I'm with you on this -- I've lost a couple good friends, one when I was in my late teens, another two years ago to cancer, and every single day, I wish I could talk with them again. I miss them, and I love them. I wish with all my heart we could talk and laugh as we used to, I wish they were still here enjoying life, with us. If I couldn't see them again myself, then I wish there WAS some kind of afterlife that took people simply on the basis of them being kind, caring, sweet people, those two would be there. But as much as I wish that for them, wishing doesn't make it so, even though I'd want it for them very much.
I actually think that the hope people place in a heaven or good afterlife of some sort is understandable. The whole God issue aside, when I think about it.... while our loved ones are here on earth, we love them, we care about them, we want the best for them, we want them to be happy and safe. That's a deeply-rooted drive, the drive to protect those we love. An evolutionary, biological drive, even. And when someone we love dies, that drive just can't automatically shut itself off easily -- we've grown so used to caring for those we love, that it almost feels wrong on an entirely emotional level to just stop. So, that's where I think the belief/hope in an afterlife comes from, really -- we continue to want our loved ones to be as protected and loved as they were while alive.
While I don't buy the concept of an afterlife, at least not one that's been described in any major religion so far, I DO understand very well why some folks would buy into that comfort and hope. And honestly, if they need that support, that belief to get them through the day and comfort them while they're grieving, I don't feel right being the one to argue with it, or try to convince them otherwise.
Quote from: Ali on January 21, 2012, 12:06:15 AM
Yep. Look up crime rates by religion, prison population by religion, peace index by religion, and it all paints a pretty compelling argument in the opposite direction - atheists commit LESS crime and are more peaceful than their theist counterparts.
I have a theory about why that is. Religion, like the law, is an external control system. With religion, you are good because you fear the consequences of being bad (hell, or whatever.) Just like with the law, you follow it for fear of going to jail. Those are external control systems, and they aren't as effective - they tend to collapse under pressure.
Atheists have to develop an internalized control system. We have to think about what is good, and what is bad, and why. Most of us rely on logic and empathy to make those decisions, and we internalize them. Internal control systems are more reliable, because they run deeper. We know what is good and bad, and why, and we are less likely to throw that knowledge aside under pressure because it becomes a part of our identity. Being good is not something that I do, it is who I am.
Another thing is theists have a good scapegoat for their problems. Nothing is their responsibility (not that all theists do this of course). There's always a devil to blame for the bad things you do.
The devil made me do it b.s usually doesn't hold up in court. :< Still irritating though.
Quote from: AmicaleSo I guess I see it as a challenge every day, to just do better than I did yesterday. Love better, help better, make more of a difference, etc. I'm NOT scared of actually dying and not being here to see the world after I'm gone. It was fine before I got here, and assuming I don't royally screw it up it'll be fine after I go. What I AM scared of is the possibility of not doing something meaningful and helpful with my life while I'm here. If I possibly can, I'd rather leave the world a slightly more interesting, maybe happier if not better place than it was when I got here.
I know it maybe sounds conceited or arrogant, thinking that one life can make enough of an impact in the world, and I truly don't mean to come off that way... but it's honestly not death that scares me.
This is one of the last reasons I struggled as an atheist. It might sound morbid, but I imagine billions of years in the future, when the sun disintegrates the earth. I imagine the voyager, flying through space, as the last remaining evidence of our existence. Yes I know about voyager 2 and other potential satellites, but this is my happy fun imagination land, leave me alone. :P This shouldn't suggest that I believe what we do now is pointless. It just helps me when that desire to live a meaningful and important life gets to stressful.
Quote from: Sweetdeath on January 21, 2012, 05:31:07 AM
The devil made me do it b.s usually doesn't hold up in court. :< Still irritating though.
It is. I mean grow a spine already and take the blame! ::)
Funnily the who "devil made me do it" is basically an argument against free will. Free choice can be so inconvenient at
certain times. ::)
Quote from: Genericguy on January 21, 2012, 05:32:34 AM
Quote from: AmicaleSo I guess I see it as a challenge every day, to just do better than I did yesterday. Love better, help better, make more of a difference, etc. I'm NOT scared of actually dying and not being here to see the world after I'm gone. It was fine before I got here, and assuming I don't royally screw it up it'll be fine after I go. What I AM scared of is the possibility of not doing something meaningful and helpful with my life while I'm here. If I possibly can, I'd rather leave the world a slightly more interesting, maybe happier if not better place than it was when I got here.
I know it maybe sounds conceited or arrogant, thinking that one life can make enough of an impact in the world, and I truly don't mean to come off that way... but it's honestly not death that scares me.
This is one of the last reasons I struggled as an atheist. It might sound morbid, but I imagine billions of years in the future, when the sun disintegrates the earth. I imagine the voyager, flying through space, as the last remaining evidence of our existence. Yes I know about voyager 2 and other potential satellites, but this is my happy fun imagination land, leave me alone. :P This shouldn't suggest that I believe what we do now is pointless. It just helps me when that desire to live a meaningful and important life gets to stressful.
I get existential angst every now and then too, but like Amicale said, simply wishing something were true doesn't make it any truer. That usually speaks loudest.
Sometimes I do feel as if that were a pity, however.
Quote from: Guardian85 on January 20, 2012, 08:39:59 PM
Quote from: yodachoda on January 19, 2012, 12:14:13 AM
Yeah, I would love to be a theist. It definitely leads to a happier life I think. If I had a choice, of course I'd chose there to be a God and to live after death.
Yes, and a drunkard is happier then a sober man.
And let's bear in mind as well that any "X is happier than Y" statement is true only on a personal level and purely speculative otherwise. For me, atheism was the main happiness making factor in my life -- it simplifed things and made sense. I love that sort of thing. The whole god business that I tried so hard to believe was just confusing, bizarre and sometimes depressing (depending on what version of god was being pushed).
Quote from: AmicaleWhile I don't buy the concept of an afterlife, at least not one that's been described in any major religion so far, I DO understand very well why some folks would buy into that comfort and hope. And honestly, if they need that support, that belief to get them through the day and comfort them while they're grieving, I don't feel right being the one to argue with it, or try to convince them otherwise.
This. My stepmother knows perfectly well I'm an atheist but still made comments about Dad being in a better place and being able to feel his spirit nearby
and knowing I could too. And I did not contradict her. If that's what she needed, she was welcome to it without commentary from me.
Quote from: Ali on January 21, 2012, 01:18:34 AM
It's really bizarre when believers lie for Jesus. You would think that would be against their religion. I guess it goes back to what I said about external controls not being very effective.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't there some very specific bits about "bearing false witness" in thr God-Damn Bible?
Quote from: Amicale on January 21, 2012, 05:01:53 AM
I actually think that the hope people place in a heaven or good afterlife of some sort is understandable. The whole God issue aside, when I think about it.... while our loved ones are here on earth, we love them, we care about them, we want the best for them, we want them to be happy and safe. That's a deeply-rooted drive, the drive to protect those we love.
I was a bit of a huckster as a kid, I knew trickery but it was just kid stuff. People were being offered what they wanted most and there was no sign anything was actually delivered. People can be so gullible, if I'd stuck with huckstering I could have had a Lear jet. Damn you empathy and golden rule for eaking your way into my psyche.
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on January 21, 2012, 05:34:13 AM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on January 21, 2012, 05:31:07 AM
The devil made me do it b.s usually doesn't hold up in court. :< Still irritating though.
It is. I mean grow a spine already and take the blame! ::)
Funnily the who "devil made me do it" is basically an argument against free will. Free choice can be so inconvenient at certain times. ::)
I feel like adults who believe in religion never grew up and gave up their imaginary friend.
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on January 21, 2012, 05:40:26 AM
Quote from: Guardian85 on January 20, 2012, 08:39:59 PM
Quote from: yodachoda on January 19, 2012, 12:14:13 AM
Yeah, I would love to be a theist. It definitely leads to a happier life I think. If I had a choice, of course I'd chose there to be a God and to live after death.
Yes, and a drunkard is happier then a sober man.
And let's bear in mind as well that any "X is happier than Y" statement is true only on a personal level and purely speculative otherwise. For me, atheism was the main happiness making factor in my life -- it simplifed things and made sense. I love that sort of thing. The whole god business that I tried so hard to believe was just confusing, bizarre and sometimes depressing (depending on what version of god was being pushed).
Quote from: AmicaleWhile I don't buy the concept of an afterlife, at least not one that's been described in any major religion so far, I DO understand very well why some folks would buy into that comfort and hope. And honestly, if they need that support, that belief to get them through the day and comfort them while they're grieving, I don't feel right being the one to argue with it, or try to convince them otherwise.
This. My stepmother knows perfectly well I'm an atheist but still made comments about Dad being in a better place and being able to feel his spirit nearby and knowing I could too. And I did not contradict her. If that's what she needed, she was welcome to it without commentary from me.
Yeah, I get this too. My mom talks sometimes about her mom (my grandma) watching over her from Heaven. I would never argue with her about it. If that gives her some comfort, I'm happy that she has it. I love my mom; why would I want to take away something that brings her solace?
Quote from: Ali on January 21, 2012, 04:14:36 PM
Yeah, I get this too. My mom talks sometimes about her mom (my grandma) watching over her from Heaven. I would never argue with her about it. If that gives her some comfort, I'm happy that she has it. I love my mom; why would I want to take away something that brings her solace?
This. :)
The only exception I'd make is if a loved one was doing something that was harmful in order to find solace -- harming themselves physically, drinking themselves into oblivion every night, etc. In that case, I'd step in, because I wouldn't want them to continue to harm themselves, and because there are other methods for getting comfort that have nothing to do with putting your life at risk. A simple belief in an afterlife or heaven, on the other hand, certainly doesn't endanger your physical health or put anyone's life at risk. Which is why I'm very happy to let my family members believe whatever will give them some comfort in that respect -- if they need to believe that they'll see their parents, grandparents again etc, that's absolutely fine with me.
Sorry to hijack this and twist it into a commentary on harm, but I was just thinking of a friend from years ago, who I routinely had to take weapons away from because she was depressed, was harming herself, and told me 'leave me alone, it brings me peace and solace and comfort to do this, you don't understand' -- but in my mind, she'd stepped over the border of 'harmless belief' into 'life threatening action', so there's a time and place to step in and object to what someone's saying/doing.... but a simple belief in heaven just ain't it.
Quote from: Ali on January 21, 2012, 04:14:36 PM
Yeah, I get this too. My mom talks sometimes about her mom (my grandma) watching over her from Heaven. I would never argue with her about it. If that gives her some comfort, I'm happy that she has it. I love my mom; why would I want to take away something that brings her solace?
I'm usually a near-rude blunthammer when it omes to this. I'm not out to hurt people or rub some salt into their loss, but I don't do dishonesty when it comes to my views on the afterlife, gods and willing self-delusion.
Quote from: Asmodean on January 21, 2012, 07:53:30 PM
Quote from: Ali on January 21, 2012, 04:14:36 PM
Yeah, I get this too. My mom talks sometimes about her mom (my grandma) watching over her from Heaven. I would never argue with her about it. If that gives her some comfort, I'm happy that she has it. I love my mom; why would I want to take away something that brings her solace?
I'm usually a near-rude blunthammer when it omes to this. I'm not out to hurt people or rub some salt into their loss, but I don't do dishonesty when it comes to my views on the afterlife, gods and willing self-delusion.
Asmo, I can understand your concerns about dishonesty, but maybe there are a couple distinctions to be made.
1. Is the person making a statement, ie, 'I think dad's in heaven', or are they asking a question, ie 'do you think dad's in heaven'? If it's the latter, I have ZERO problem answering honestly and as gently as I can. If it's the former, though, then they're not ready to ask that question of me, and they're just making a statement. They want someone to listen to them, not question them. Kind of like if a 5 year old said 'I believe in Santa!', you likely wouldn't say 'Oh, don't be silly, Santa doesn't exist.' You'd just nod and smile, or more people probably would. But when that 5 year old turns 7 or 8 and asks you 'does Santa really exist?', then it's time to be upfront and honest.
Which brings me to...
2. I think there's a time and place for being blunt, direct, etc. Immediately after the loss of a loved one isn't the right time to rip the carpet of comfort out from under someone's feet, unless you've got something just as comforting to replace it with, and most of us don't, since grieving people don't see 'cold hard fact' as much comfort, generally. After some time's gone on, however, that may be the time when someone's in a better place emotionally and mentally, and then I think it'd be more appropriate to sit down with them and discuss your views. It just doesn't feel right to me, though, to automatically 'correct' a statement from someone in pain, immediately following a loss. Questions though, yes.
I'll give an example of what I mean. A couple years back, my grandma was in the hospital, and we were preparing ourselves for her possible death (thankfully, she turned around and pulled through, and made it). My mom was horribly upset, and asked me 'if grandma died, do you think she'd go to heaven?' I could have answered with a blunt 'No, we don't go on after this life' and had that be the end of it, but why hurt my mom more? So I just said 'I honestly don't know. The idea of us going on beyond this life doesn't make a ton of sense to me, but grandma's a good, sweet person. IF it's possible we maybe go on to somewhere better, she'd do that. What I know for sure is that if she dies, the pain she's in right now will be gone, and she at least won't have that agony anymore.' and my mom found that comforting and satisfactory, even though I'd admitted my own doubt. I think she just appreciated me giving her some leeway to grab onto some hope. Doing that was fine with me. Just as I don't want anyone shoving something down my throat when I'm grieving, I wouldn't want to do that to anyone else.
Quote from: Guardian85 on January 21, 2012, 09:33:22 AM
Quote from: Ali on January 21, 2012, 01:18:34 AM
It's really bizarre when believers lie for Jesus. You would think that would be against their religion. I guess it goes back to what I said about external controls not being very effective.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't there some very specific bits about "bearing false witness" in thr God-Damn Bible?
I think there are loopholes when it's done "for Jesus" or "for god". The bible itself is full of these little exceptions, and the people who interpret the bible have even more of them.
Quote from: Amicale on January 21, 2012, 08:08:29 PM
Asmo, I can understand your concerns about dishonesty, but maybe there are a couple distinctions to be made.
If you think it's worth it, yes. If you don't...
Quote1. Is the person making a statement, ie, 'I think dad's in heaven', or are they asking a question, ie 'do you think dad's in heaven'? If it's the latter, I have ZERO problem answering honestly and as gently as I can.
I make a minor distinction between adults and kids, with kids getting a more full and sometimes more direct answer. (Only answered that question to a kid once, and it went really well)
To adults, I've been known to say "Probably not" or "I hope not... Eternity SUCKS".
QuoteIf it's the former, though, then they're not ready to ask that question of me, and they're just making a statement.
...And to that, my answer is invariably "Oh, really?" unless no answer is expeted. (The person talking to the air or talking to someone else specific, thus making it that other person's place to comment)
QuoteThey want someone to listen to them, not question them. Kind of like if a 5 year old said 'I believe in Santa!', you likely wouldn't say 'Oh, don't be silly, Santa doesn't exist.' You'd just nod and smile, or more people probably would. But when that 5 year old turns 7 or 8 and asks you 'does Santa really exist?', then it's time to be upfront and honest.
The Asmo has no neck. He does not nod. (Means I wouldn't nod and smile - I'd just point out the possibility of obtaining evidence of reality and that reality is mom and dad and Uncle Bob)
Quote2. I think there's a time and place for being blunt, direct, etc.
This line right here is the key point of disagreement. My answer to that is "Everywhere. Always"
QuoteImmediately after the loss of a loved one isn't the right time to rip the carpet of comfort out from under someone's feet, unless you've got something just as comforting to replace it with, and most of us don't, since grieving people don't see 'cold hard fact' as much comfort, generally.
Well, I'm not sacrificing my integrity for someone's carpet. If they want a hug, they can have it. If they want me to turn hypocrite for a while, no thanks. There is enough hypocrisy in life as it is, and I am disinclined to knowingly add more.
QuoteAfter some time's gone on, however, that may be the time when someone's in a better place emotionally and mentally, and then I think it'd be more appropriate to sit down with them and discuss your views. It just doesn't feel right to me, though, to automatically 'correct' a statement from someone in pain, immediately following a loss. Questions though, yes.
You can also refuse to comment, which can be taken for worse, or you can spew out some politically correct nonsense that really doesn't mean anything at all but sounds pleasant enough. Agreeing with something you know or strongly suspect to be a lie though..? I wouldn't.
Quote
Just as I don't want anyone shoving something down my throat when I'm grieving, I wouldn't want to do that to anyone else.
You don't have to shove opinions down people's throats. Simply expressing yours and moving on (As opposed to trying to engage the person in question in a debate on the matter) can hardly count as shoving.
You are so awesome, Asmo!
Quote from: Asmodean on January 21, 2012, 07:53:30 PM
Quote from: Ali on January 21, 2012, 04:14:36 PM
Yeah, I get this too. My mom talks sometimes about her mom (my grandma) watching over her from Heaven. I would never argue with her about it. If that gives her some comfort, I'm happy that she has it. I love my mom; why would I want to take away something that brings her solace?
I'm usually a near-rude blunthammer when it omes to this. I'm not out to hurt people or rub some salt into their loss, but I don't do dishonesty when it comes to my views on the afterlife, gods and willing self-delusion.
I wouldn't say I'm being dishonest. She knows where I stand in general (that I'm an atheist) and I don't rush to agree "Oh yes, Grandma is obviously watching from heaven." I just smile and keep my thoughts to myself. I just feel like there is a time and place for getting into the whole "Is there an afterlife" debate, and when my mom is missing her mom isn't really the time or place.
Quote from: Ali on January 21, 2012, 10:58:12 PM
I just feel like there is a time and place for getting into the whole "Is there an afterlife" debate, and when my mom is missing her mom isn't really the time or place.
I'm with you on this one. Under these circumstances the point is not a philosophical debate, but comfort. The debate can happen any other time, comfort tends to be time and place specific.
It's not really a debate, but just "okay..whatever .."
I dunno. I get pretty peeved everytime my grandmother talks about my mom being in heaven, watching over us. It actually really bothers me because I dont believe that, and I just don't want to hear any of it.
I feel like I am speaking to a child make up stories to "feel better."
Precisely. Debate is the operative word here - or rather, the lack thereof. There are times unsuitable for debate - especially when people are emotionally unbalanced, but not expressing an opinion contrary to someone just because they are all teary-eyed over a recent loss..? If it comforts them, it is a fake comfort. Rather than that, I'd try and find something genuine within myself to comfort with OR tell the person that in their current state, I might not be the best person to talk to.
At the hospital, my mom's care nurse was constantly telling me how impressed she was with.my maturity to handle my mom in ICU, then the hospice. I felt normal, because even though it was emotional, I knew there wasnt much I could do.
My mom lived a pretty okay life, but I knew she loved me and I loved her, and that is ALL the comfort I needed.
Even after she was cremated, I referred to the ashes as ashes, not my mom. She's gone, and that's really sad, but i'll be okay. I'm alive, so it is idiotic to dwell on dead things.
I'll be giving my sister the ashes to spread in whatever idiotic morbid spreading of the ashes ritual she wants. I'm done with all that bs.
I also ripped up every "god bless your family" sympathy card I got from my hypocritical distant family.
Sorry i'm realistic. :/
You and The Asmo... That would be a couple to behold in dread and wonder :D
Quote from: Asmodean on January 22, 2012, 03:20:19 PM
You and The Asmo... That would be a couple to behold in dread and wonder :D
Oh, that is the first sign of the Rapture. XD
Asmo and I are all four horsemen combined. :)
QuoteAnd I looked, and behold a pink horse: and his name that sat on her was Asmo, and coffee followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sarcasm, and with the Power Hungry TANK, and with Paint, and with the beasts of the Happy Atheist Forum. - Revelations 6:8
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi46.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ff131%2Faasaliman%2FAsmoSweet.jpg&hash=da1806bdd43a61b2974b67deef472a652f3eeda9)
The Asmo on my back! Miracles do happen.
And the coffee is as black as my heart. >D
Thanks Ali. XD
Quote from: Sweetdeath on January 22, 2012, 04:17:57 PM
The Asmo on my back! Miracles do happen.
And the coffee is as black as my heart. >D
Thanks Ali. XD
He still looks grumpy :D
MUAHAHA! Now, to invade Hal's... Hal. ;D
Quote from: Guardian85 on January 21, 2012, 09:33:22 AM
Quote from: Ali on January 21, 2012, 01:18:34 AM
It's really bizarre when believers lie for Jesus. You would think that would be against their religion. I guess it goes back to what I said about external controls not being very effective.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't there some very specific bits about "bearing false witness" in thr God-Damn Bible?
Aye, but for all a Christian's talk about how atheists absolve themselves from the resposibility of our actions, we don't pretend to have the "get out of sin free" card that they believe in. We deal with the consequences of our actions and realise that what we do affects the world and we have to be careful not to do harm because we might not be able to fix it... while a Christian just "repents" in an attempt to shift their resposibility to a figure that likely never existed. A Christian can always do horrible things (like lie), even if it's something their religion says they shouldn't do, because they repent.
I just discovered this thread: holy wtfsandwhich. Liar for Jesus indeed.
DJ - If you want to continue the fun, check out ATTN Any Administrator thread in the Getting to Know You/Introductions area for a double dose of Liar for Jesus insanity.