Happy Atheist Forum

Community => Social Issues and Causes => Topic started by: Ecurb Noselrub on May 04, 2022, 12:17:02 AM

Title: School murder
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on May 04, 2022, 12:17:02 AM
In Belton High School today, about a half-mile from my home, an 18 year-old student murdered another student by stabbing him in the face and heart. It appears to have been over a girl. My grandson was there and experienced his first lockdown.  The victim was taken to the hospital where I work, but they could not save him. They could not stop the bleeding soon enough to save him.  Other than that, it was a good school day.
Title: Re: School murder
Post by: Icarus on May 04, 2022, 03:03:57 AM
Sorry that you and your Grandson has had to endure that kind of madness. Is there no end to irrational behavior?

Jealousy is one of the deadly sins. There is also the ill-conceived belief in sole possession.....that being a ramp up to jealous rage. 
Title: Re: School murder
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on May 04, 2022, 02:07:36 PM
   To answer your question, no, there is no end to irrational behavior. Humans are a bottomless pit of irrationality. If we could just stop killing each other it would be a start, but apparently that is impossible.
Title: Re: School murder
Post by: Tank on May 04, 2022, 06:18:15 PM
Absolutely horrific :( 
Title: Re: School murder
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on May 05, 2022, 12:53:22 AM
I suspect that the accused will be tried as an adult, since he is 18. He brought the knife to school, so it would appear that his act was pre-meditated. He ran away after he stabbed the victim, so that suggests that he knew it was wrong. That would seem to undermine an insanity defense. The scene was bloody and witnessed by many students. It occurred in the bathroom, and then the victim dragged himself out, leaving a bloody trail.  I assume many will be traumatized by it. There is just nothing good to say about it.
Title: Re: School murder
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on May 05, 2022, 12:59:55 AM
Furthermore, some students posted photos and videos on social media, adding an element of the macabre. Life has been devalued to such an extreme that events like this are bound to manifest in various circumstances. So sad, a life snuffed out right before graduation, right before he was about to launch out into adult life. I can't imagine his parents' grief.
Title: Re: School murder
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on May 24, 2022, 11:57:40 PM
Today at least 14 children and 1 teacher were murdered at a Uvalde, Texas elementary school. The shooter was an 18 year-old student, and is dead. We are so fucked in this country. We can't even enact more stringent background checks, much less ban weapons of mass destruction.
Title: Re: School murder
Post by: billy rubin on May 25, 2022, 12:02:52 AM
it may not be constructive to say so,

but in my opimion

for what it is worth

if i might be so bold as to say . . .

what we need is a major mass shooting in the halls of congress, on that leaves multiple senators and/or congressmen dead .

if that happens, we might actually get some recognotion that change is appropriate.

Title: Re: School murder
Post by: Wolfen on May 25, 2022, 12:33:29 AM
Quote from: billy rubin on May 25, 2022, 12:02:52 AMit may not be constructive to say so,

but in my opimion

for what it is worth

if i might be so bold as to say . . .

what we need is a major mass shooting in the halls of congress, on that leaves multiple senators and/or congressmen dead .

if that happens, we might actually get some recognotion that change is appropriate.



Something similar already happened. I don't recall the event or year, but it wasn't too far back, and there was a shooting where Republicans were gathered. For a short while they somewhat woke up, but then they just went back to their old selves. People don't really change.
Title: Re: School murder
Post by: billy rubin on May 25, 2022, 12:35:34 AM
it needs to be in the the halls of congress, not a softball game.

right in the seat of government.

they wont pay attention until they know they are not safe, anywhere.
Title: Re: School murder
Post by: billy rubin on May 25, 2022, 12:36:56 AM
i dont like to see people hurt, but thesr assholes need to be as vulnerable as the little kids for whom they offer thoughts and prayers.
Title: Re: School murder
Post by: Wolfen on May 25, 2022, 12:49:51 AM
I don't disagree.

At a certain point, being the bigger man doesn't serve any valid purpose.
Title: Re: School murder
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on May 25, 2022, 01:29:43 AM
The death toll is up to 19 now.
Title: Re: School murder
Post by: Firebird on May 25, 2022, 03:59:27 AM
19 kids and a teacher.
There was a shooting at a Republican baseball game a few years ago where at least one of the Congressmen was seriously wounded, and that did nothing. Nor did January 6th. Sandy Hook did nothing too.
You want to complain about someone, blame the Republicans. It's not "both sides" here. It's them.
Title: Re: School murder
Post by: Asmodean on May 25, 2022, 08:05:43 AM
My thoughts are with the victims, their families and community. I have a thing or two to say about this, and it may sound "political" to a degree - I don't know yet. If it does, do let us not forget, should we end up in along-form back and forth, that these are more than statistics. They are actual kids no longer with us. They are parents, trying to deal with the worst kind of loss a person can be inflicted upon. They are members of the community whose sense of safety is shaken, if not utterly destroyed. Real human stories. Do let us not forget that. With that, I have a question;

What would you do though? (And this relates to the original post as well as the mass shooting)

- Make it harder to get hold of firearms. How? If you can't get one legally, you can get one in other ways. Heck, I could get a couple illegally in my otherwise very peaceful corner of the world, and there's more already in circulation in States. How do you stop a motivated (mass) murderer (looking at our own Fjotolf Hansen, born Anders Breivik) from getting the boomsticks and/or stabby things?

- Make certain public spaces into "fortresses." How, and respect people's freedoms? Who wants to, hyperbolically speaking, get strip searched before entering their school? How much would even that, if seriously implemented, actually help?

Personally, I think the problem is that in US culture ("Culture" not being the perfect word here, but it will do) it actually occurs to "a lot" people to go out and blast upon the innocents with deadly force. How do you fix that?
Title: Re: School murder
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on May 25, 2022, 10:57:50 AM
US "culture", with respect to firearms, was not always like this. It is a phenomenon of the past 20 years or so. One way to fix it is to ban assault weapons and body armor. The shooter here was able to buy a WMD and body armor too easily. We can fix that with tighter restrictions on fire arms. We can ban magazines that have more than a certain number of bullets. There are things that can be done. Like racism, we can't get rid of the inner issues, but we can fix some of the outer ones.

People used to be satisfied with a shotgun or deer rifle, and a pistol for target practice. 25 years or so ago there were no assault weapons.  Now, lots of people have them, but people having these weapons does not stop shooters from killing children in school. So, that is not a good argument for having them. Arming teachers is even worse - if you have armed personnel in school, someone is going to get shot.  Armed guards don't even help if the shooter is wearing body armor, as we saw in Buffalo. Just ban assault weapons. If you don't have access to them, you can't buy them when you turn 18. We can all keep our hunting rifles and pistols for self-protection, but we don't need assault rifles for that.
Title: Re: School murder
Post by: Asmodean on May 25, 2022, 12:14:48 PM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on May 25, 2022, 10:57:50 AMUS "culture", with respect to firearms, was not always like this. It is a phenomenon of the past 20 years or so. One way to fix it is to ban assault weapons and body armor. The shooter here was able to buy a WMD and body armor too easily. We can fix that with tighter restrictions on fire arms. We can ban magazines that have more than a certain number of bullets. There are things that can be done. Like racism, we can't get rid of the inner issues, but we can fix some of the outer ones.
Would you, though? Be rid of those outer issues?

To put it this way, let us assume that I am a drug cartel, moving me some nice white powders into the United States. I know that the US government has made it harder to get an "assault weapon," whatever that means, with a high capacity magazine. I know that them Americans do love some boomstick, and so I start moving them. In that scenario, it would be as "hard" to get an automatic rifle as it is to get heroin. That's not far from the situation I find myself in. If it occurred to me to shoot up a school and I decided to act on it, the biggest hassle would honestly be getting the ammo (Assuming the same drug cartel doesn't move that, too)

QuotePeople used to be satisfied with a shotgun or deer rifle, and a pistol for target practice. 25 years or so ago there were no assault weapons.
For those of us less versed in US terminology, what makes a weapon "assault?"

QuoteNow, lots of people have them, but people having these weapons does not stop shooters from killing children in school. So, that is not a good argument for having them.
Do they actually argue that the reason for having one is protection from mass shootings? I mean, there are far better reasons. For instance, if you happen to be defending against a group of violent rioters, being able to take down multiple targets quickly may well save your ass.

The best thing is, of course, not to be in a violent riot, but if they break the windows and get into your home, where your children are... What, by that point, is the reasoning behind not being able to hose them down with machinegun fire?

QuoteArming teachers is even worse - if you have armed personnel in school, someone is going to get shot.  Armed guards don't even help if the shooter is wearing body armor, as we saw in Buffalo. Just ban assault weapons. If you don't have access to them, you can't buy them when you turn 18. We can all keep our hunting rifles and pistols for self-protection, but we don't need assault rifles for that.
I agree that the solution probably is not arming more people with heavier weapons - that would be the definition of an arms race. A ban, however... How much would it actually solve.

Let's look at the abovementioned Buffalo, for instance. What would that shooter have had to do to get an equivalent weapon if he could not have walked into a store and bought one? How many more steps would that take? How much more time? Would it have caused the would-be shooter to... What? Just give up? Go on a stabbing spree in stead? Cook up a fertilizer bomb?
Title: Re: School murder
Post by: Tom62 on May 25, 2022, 12:18:35 PM
The problem is not so much the guns themselves. Yes, assault weapons should not be easily available for the common public but on the other hand no reasonable, sensible person will go on a killing spree with them. Like Asmo already said, there is any law that could and will stop a determined crazy person to get hold of such a weapon. It would be a bit more problematic here in Europe than in the USA, but there are ways to get them (for example on the Dark Web).

The problem will not solve itself. Implementing stronger anti-gun laws may sound great on paper, but are very ineffective. For example Chicago has very strong gun laws, but that doesn't stop people to kill each other there in great numbers on a daily basis.

I believe that you should solve problems by the roots. That means addressing mental health issues and making sure that mentally unstable people are identified as quickly as possible and are offered help to bring them back to normality. In this particular case (and several others) the gunman posted on social media what he was going to do. That should have raised many red flags.
Title: Re: School murder
Post by: Asmodean on May 25, 2022, 12:31:32 PM
Quote from: Tom62 on May 25, 2022, 12:18:35 PMIn this particular case (and several others) the gunman posted on social media what he was going to do.
That practically screams "stop me," doesn't it?
Title: Re: School murder
Post by: Tom62 on May 25, 2022, 07:18:17 PM
Germany has very strong anti gun laws. Nevertheless there was a school shooting in Bremerhafen six days ago (one person injured) and another one in Heidelberg in January of this year (one dead and three injured).

It also pays off to check social media. In the beginning of this month investigators in Germany's city of Essen said they foiled a school bomb assault, as they arrested a 16-year-old who is suspected to have been planning a "Nazi terror attack". Police in Essen stormed the teen's room overnight, taking him into custody and uncovering 16 "pipe bombs", as well as anti-Semitic and anti-Muslim material.
Title: Re: School murder
Post by: billy rubin on May 25, 2022, 08:31:53 PM
ive thought abiut this a lot. there are guns all over where i live. i always assume the people i stop to chat with on my dirt roads are armed. they genenerally are, as am i. i have a concealed carry permit, and i always have a semiautomatic pistol with me.

there are around 400 million guns in america. even if it wouldnt caise widespread civil disobedience, registration, general licensing, and confiscation wont work. tbe guns are here to stay.

but things can be done:

- license all semiautomatic long guns and charge a large federal fee to own one. grandfather the ones here. this is why machine, submachine, and machine pistols disappeated from tbe american market.  this would be very unpopular, but lever action, bolt action, and pump action guns are all multi shot and work for defense, hunting, and targe t. this means my innocuous 22 caliber semi auto rifle would be regulated in the same way as an AK47.

-- require universal background checks. this is a no brainer, and is done every day in ten minutes at gun shows. if you cannot legally own a gun, you should not be able to buy one.

-- make the owners responsible for locking up their guns. half the american school shootings since 1990 could have been prevented this way. like the oxford parents, if they dont take respobsible safeguards, make them criminally liable for death and injury.

-- ditch tbe constitutional carry crap. the second amendment reqires a "well regulated" militia. so require classroom instruction and live fire training to buy and carry a gun. we already require gun training before a kid can get a hunting license. make training mandatory. do the backgtound check then too.

-- make and enforce redflag laws. if a judge decides that you are a dNger to yourself and ithers, then have him issue a court order to remove your guns and store them until you show c a use why the order should be rescinded.

 none of this addresses the root causes, but im happy to treat the symptoms until we figure out what the root causes are. tuff like this could move the country closer to a balance point between tbe constitutional right to own a gun and the constitutional right to be secure in your person.

Title: Re: School murder
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on May 25, 2022, 10:21:10 PM
I think billy's suggestions are good. To answer the Asmo, an assault weapon is typically semiautomatic, with some other feature like large magazines or bayonet attachments.  As we have seen with racism, if you treat the symptoms, eventually people's attitudes change. Very few people today seriously advocate for slavery as they did in 1860 or segregation as they did in 1960. The legal fixes eventually resulted in a more tolerant society. Of course, racism still exists, but nothing like during Jim Crow.

So, if we change gun laws to provide for more serious background checks, eventually (years later) it could result in changed attitudes. People didn't like seatbelts when they were first mandated, but now they are second-nature. 
Title: Re: School murder
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on May 25, 2022, 10:26:20 PM
A little history on Uvalde. It was the home of John Nance Garner, a former US Speaker of the House, and Vice-President for two terms under FDR. Garner State Park north of Uvalde is named for him. Now it is predominantly Latino.

This killing was not racial/ethnic: it was a Latino killing mainly Latinos. Obviously, the killer had mental health issues of some sort, but we may never know. Word is that he was bullied in school and had stopped going to class. So all kinds of layers here. 

All the deaths were in one classroom. One can only imagine the horror.
Title: Re: School murder
Post by: billy rubin on May 25, 2022, 11:30:43 PM
i once counted up deaths in recent mass shootings- 4 or more deaths, iirc

most people in mass shootings were killed with pistols, shotguns, and non semiautomatic rifles

but the shootings that killed the most people in one go were mostly AR15 clones.

the assault rifle killings are the ones thst get the attention, because so many people die at once. but more people are killed in total with more garden-variety guns.

we have had 27 school shootings in the states this year. most were not assault rifles.

the assault rifles get the press, but regulating other guns will save more lives

Title: Re: School murder
Post by: Anne D. on May 26, 2022, 01:44:11 AM
Quote from: Asmodean on May 25, 2022, 12:14:48 PM
QuoteNow, lots of people have them, but people having these weapons does not stop shooters from killing children in school. So, that is not a good argument for having them.
Do they actually argue that the reason for having one is protection from mass shootings?

Yes, this is a frequent refrain on the American right after a mass shooting.

Quote from: Asmodean on May 25, 2022, 12:14:48 PMI mean, there are far better reasons. For instance, if you happen to be defending against a group of violent rioters, being able to take down multiple targets quickly may well save your ass.

The best thing is, of course, not to be in a violent riot, but if they break the windows and get into your home, where your children are... What, by that point, is the reasoning behind not being able to hose them down with machinegun fire?

What? This is a truly bizarre imagined scenario. It reads like a personal fantasy where you imagine yourself playing the hero. I'm not recalling any instances of violent rioters breaking into family homes to kill one's children. On the other hand, the U.S. has a mass shooting at least monthly.

billy, I like your listed proposals; they make a lot of sense.
Title: Re: School murder
Post by: Asmodean on May 26, 2022, 06:43:40 PM
Quote from: Anne D. on May 26, 2022, 01:44:11 AMWhat? This is a truly bizarre imagined scenario. It reads like a personal fantasy where you imagine yourself playing the hero. I'm not recalling any instances of violent rioters breaking into family homes to kill one's children. On the other hand, the U.S. has a mass shooting at least monthly.
It may be bizarre, but it is precisely how I would justify acquiring a "military-grade" weapon.

When it comes to simple home defence, a pump action shotgun - or even a double barrel one can be utterly devastating in most circumstances. Good stopping power vs unarmoured targets, the spread of projectiles means that you don't have to be very accurate to be very deadly and it's not hard to learn, operate or maintain. Except.

...Except when the attackers are many. And by that, I mean three or more. And in what situation can a person expect to encounter so many attackers in their own home or place of business? A violent riot seems like an excellent example. And when faced with multiple attackers, a semi-automatic or even fully automatic rifle of sufficient calibre can provide you with exactly the edge to emerge alive from that situation - and/or to see that those you try to protect do.

As an aside, it doesn't really matter if they break in specifically to kill your children. If a reasonable parent in those circumstances would be expected to think that their children's (or, heck, their own - I just brought kids in it from personal perspective. I would probably hesitate to kill another person for me. For someone I love..? A-whole-nother story.) life and/or health was in danger, they would have the right to use lethal force in defence.

So yeah... I think something like, say, an AR15 can have its niche in self defence. I don't think you should just be able to walk into a store and buy one - for instance, I think a gun licence with a maintenance requirement would be quite in order, but I don't think that you should not be able to get or keep one as long as it's reasonable to assume that you would not use it in an unlawful or unsafe manner. But then, I would apply that to hunting and hobby weapons as well - be it a bow, a musket or a rocket launcher.

A other aside; I do like most of billy rubin's suggestions, though the sceptic in me wonders how much they would achieve in actually deterring a determined would-be killer.

[EDIT] Just another side note; I do find the notion that having a arsenal big enough to outfit some standing armies makes The Government(tm) fear you laughable. Yes, force can be used to devastating effect as an instance of diplomacy. However, there are tools there that prove just as effective. Manipulation. Bribery. False flagging. Others - that toolbox runs deep. You may think that you defend your freedom with your guns - and willingly give it away. I have heard that argument be made, and have had some tête-à-têtes here and there, and while some arguments are more plausible than others... Yeah... No. A civil war is not the population fighting their government - it's a part of the population fighting another. As a private citizen, you are unlikely to bring something to the table that your opponents won't - at least on a strategic level. I would expect The Government(tm) to be aware of that to the point that in the event of such a conflict, their "head count" would go towards the military, local authorities and the like before it ever gets to revolutionary or counter-revolutionary civilians.
Title: Re: School murder
Post by: billy rubin on May 26, 2022, 11:55:35 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on May 26, 2022, 06:43:40 PMA other aside; I do like most of billy rubin's suggestions, though the sceptic in me wonders how much they would achieve in actually deterring a determined would-be killer.


they wouldnt. nothing will deter someone bent on killing people, except for a paradigm shift in tbe reasons american white men run amok.

the only solution i have is pragmatic. i am armed with a weapon whenever i leave tbe house. when i sleep, there is a loaded weapon within easy reach of me at all times. when i work on something at the farm i may not have a weapon on my person but there is one nearby.

my personal guns are always loaded and i keep additional loaded magazines with them.

my kids are familiar with guns and tbeir use, and my oldest son carries a concealed pistol, just like i do. i have told both my daughters that if they choose, i will buy them a carry gun and pay for the safety and legal traini g they should have in order to carry it.

this is not a difficult decision for me. theres no way to tell whether precautions like this will ever be of any value should i or somepne i am responsible for be put in danger. but i have been too close to too many mass shootings to pretend that it cant ever happen to me.

Title: Re: School murder
Post by: billy rubin on May 27, 2022, 12:01:30 AM
just as an aside, whats with the new fashion in mass shootings of wearing body armour? they used to want to get killed as part of the finale. now tbeyre outfitting themselves like tbeyre in a video game?

i would restrict body armour to police and licensed security personell. i cant think of a law abiding reason to need body armour.
Title: Re: School murder
Post by: Bluenose on May 27, 2022, 02:50:10 AM
As an outside observer of the US gun related problems, I would like to make a couple of observations.

The propensity to blame mass shootings on mental illness completely misses the point, IMHO.  The real cause is the sheer number of guns in private hands in America. Limiting access to certain (new) weapons will never solve the problem, given the number already out there.  As unpalatable as it may seem, some sort of process to reduce the number of firearms in private ownership needs to occur.  What about the Second Amendment, I can already hear the ammosexuals asking?  Well, first I fail to see how the current situation has anything to do with a well regulated militia, but furthermore, if the US Constitution can be amended before it can be amended again.  Repeal the bloody thing!

The right-wingers often claim that "they're coming for our guns".  Well, maybe that is exactly what needs to happen, more or less.  Compulsory buy-back schemes can actually work: vide the semi-automatic buy-back in Australia after the Port Arthur massacre.

My suggested ideas are:

This is never going to be easy, but unless we start to look at the real issues rather than throw our hands in the air and shout "it's all too hard", we will continue to read about more senseless killings of defenceless, innocent children.

Title: Re: School murder
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on May 27, 2022, 03:21:12 AM
The states with the most guns have the most gun deaths. A lot of them are suicides, but they are still gun deaths.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/05/26/politics/gun-violence-data-what-matters/index.html

Looking at these states, they are basically Red. States with fewer gun deaths are Blue. Gov. Abbott in TX once stated that he was embarrassed that California had more gun sales.  https://news.yahoo.com/texas-gov-greg-abbott-tweeted-075023711.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuYmluZy5jb20v&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAFQtgEGTkbCqXdRKtOCnnvKHZZYE9LZDzPbn4zOoh3lzSiyQj7sZdYaWSDtdvzMZxoZK6CI78oO29s1nIHYvoLYHzGuMbWXjKJeF_XTvuyTneX5pyBVec-WTdOUuMSGMJzoRL6Fl1uVntlvjHkEwvIG8HPgN2QeaV9DWPpADRwSh

It seems pretty clear that if you have fewer guns, you have fewer gun deaths. So....
Title: Re: School murder
Post by: Tom62 on May 27, 2022, 03:56:55 AM
I assume that nothing will change again. The conservatives want to protect schools by fortifying them and having armed guards in place. A proposal from Ted Cruz in 2013 however was filibustered by the liberals. On the other liberal side the solution has always been to propose stronger gun laws, which is something that the conservatives don't seem to like (especially those who are sponsored by the NRA). Unless both parties start to cooperate together, to tackle the problem, more deaths will follow. What also needs to be investigated is why more and more men are depressed, feel isolated and are more willing to use violence against others. Have we been raising a generation of isolated, frustrated, hateful, depressed, mentally unstable people that is addicted to social media and violent video games?
Title: Re: School murder
Post by: Asmodean on May 27, 2022, 07:34:33 AM
Quote from: Tom62 on May 27, 2022, 03:56:55 AMHave we been raising a generation of isolated, frustrated, hateful, depressed, mentally unstable people that is addicted to social media and violent video games?
Personal opinion? Absolutely.

I don't think violence in movies and video games is necessarily a problem - Norwegian kids watch the same movies and play the same games (Often at a younger age too, if that age-restriction-thing is worth the ink it's printed with, which is debateable, but another conversation) and yet it does not occur to them to solve their issues with a gun, or if it does, they do not go through with it. A lot of them could - they "just" don't.

I have a somewhat-nebulous and not very well structured hypothesis that much of this is due to the way an unfortunate number of kids are being raised these days, that suppresses their instinctive behaviours and allows for very little "figuring shit out for yourself, but not alone" If you mould someone into a shape they don't fit in - there may be cracks. As there will be if, in keeping with the metaphor, you let the clay land where it may.

Again, this is not very well fleshed out. I'll go long-form on it if anybody wants to, but then sometimes parents seem to think, both vocally and rather rudely, that since I myself have always used a rubber, therefore I simply cannot understand what it's like, raising a child, and that I absolutely cannot have a valid opinion on such matters. Nonsense, of course, but more common than you might think.

The Asmo wanders off, ranting about the "lived-experience-or-bust" mentality.
Title: Re: School murder
Post by: billy rubin on May 27, 2022, 10:54:53 AM
the uvalde thing is a mess. the cops dithered outside for an hour while the kid killed everyone, in spite of parents being right there begging them to go in.

doesnt look good for the police so far.
Title: Re: School murder
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on May 27, 2022, 12:28:03 PM
Quote from: billy rubin on May 27, 2022, 10:54:53 AMthe uvalde thing is a mess. the cops dithered outside for an hour while the kid killed everyone, in spite of parents being right there begging them to go in.

doesnt look good for the police so far.

Yes, some dads were begging for guns to go in themselves. This is going to be a mess. I hope Biden's visit can help the community. Glad that Jill is going - she does well in those situations.

Title: Re: School murder
Post by: billy rubin on May 27, 2022, 01:36:03 PM
well, its an ob ject lrsson thst tbe job of the police is to show up late, taser yourmother, shoot your dog, and go on paid administrative leave.
Title: Re: School murder
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on May 27, 2022, 10:41:02 PM
Ha! I feel bad about laughing in this situation, but there is truth in what you say.
Title: Re: School murder
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on May 27, 2022, 10:43:13 PM
From the Uvalde city website: photos of all the victims. Horrific.

https://www.uvaldetx.gov/news_detail_T30_R204.php

Both teachers were female and 14 of the 19 kids were girls.

Title: Re: School murder
Post by: Anne D. on May 28, 2022, 01:59:05 AM
Quote from: Tom62 on May 27, 2022, 03:56:55 AMI assume that nothing will change again. The conservatives want to protect schools by fortifying them and having armed guards in place. A proposal from Ted Cruz in 2013 however was filibustered by the liberals.

Yes, the right-wing solution is almost always more guns. "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun." As ecurb pointed out in his previous comment, the data show more guns = more gun deaths. Who would've thought.

Ted Cruz has now branched out with his proposals. He is advocating for fewer doors as a solution to the school shooting epidemic.

Dan Patrick (Republican TX lt. gov.) has said the answer is for people to "unify in faith" and "unify in prayer."

Quote from: Tom62 on May 27, 2022, 03:56:55 AMUnless both parties start to cooperate together, to tackle the problem, more deaths will follow.


Quote from: Tom62 on May 27, 2022, 03:56:55 AMWhat also needs to be investigated is why more and more men are depressed, feel isolated and are more willing to use violence against others.

Agreed.
Title: Re: School murder
Post by: Anne D. on May 28, 2022, 04:44:08 AM
On "good guys" with guns:
Title: Re: School murder
Post by: billy rubin on May 28, 2022, 02:08:59 PM
i dont see good guys with guns being the solution for stopping mass shootings. thats just a brainless right wing argument. in my experience most gun owners arent very good with their weapons. but it happens. this was 6 hours ago, an hour from my house

BBC News - Armed female bystander kills man firing at party in West Virginia
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-61615236

but in uvalde there were 19 good guys with guns in the hallway, listening to 21 people die. good guys didnt help them.

the situation in uvalde and this one in west virginia are worth comparing. both were very bad situations. one got worse and one didnt.
Title: Re: School murder
Post by: Bluenose on May 29, 2022, 02:36:07 PM
The obvious fallacy with the good guy with a gun fantasy is, suppose the police do their job properly and enter the live shooter scenario and see someone waving a gun around, what do you suppose is likely to happen next?
Title: Re: School murder
Post by: billy rubin on May 29, 2022, 09:32:02 PM
bluenose, the police will do what they have demonstrated to be their modus operandi-- they will behave incompetently and kill the wrong people. police in america do not do their job properly, because  . . . they are the police.

in america the police are not part of the solution--they are part of the problem in keeping people safe.

we would be better off if the police stayed in their hidey holes and the parents went in to get their kids out. the uvalde standoff is proof of this.

maybe im not represenatative, but if i have a situation involving the safety of my family. i will not call the police for help. there are no police closer than at least an hour to where i live, in an emergency. i will evaluate the situation, myself. determne whether i can best solvve the situation, myself. then attempt tosolve the situation, myself.

i have no trust in my local law enforcement profesionals, and would nopt call them unless absolutely necessary.
Title: Re: School murder
Post by: Magdalena on May 30, 2022, 06:55:57 AM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on May 25, 2022, 10:57:50 AMUS "culture", concerning firearms, was not always like this. It is a phenomenon for the past 20 years or so. One way to fix it is to ban assault weapons and body armor. The shooter here was able to buy a WMD and body armor too easily. We can fix that with tighter restrictions on firearms. We can ban magazines that have more than a certain number of bullets. Some things can be done. Like racism, we can't get rid of the inner issues, but we can fix some of the outer ones.

...

QuoteUS "culture", concerning firearms, was not always like this. It is a phenomenon for the past 20 years or so.

I think this goes all the way back to the foundation of this country. The US has always had a dysfunctional obsession with guns.
Here is a list:
The genocide of Native Americans. The Old West--a time when cowboys defended their honor and their horses by way of their Colts

In the 1980s and 1990s we "Went Postal" at work. After that, we had school shootings,
concert shootings, movie theater shootings, nightclub shootings, etc.

I agree with you, like you say, racism has a lot to do with it. Somewhere, someone is poisoning minds, and the angry and mentally unstable men act on it in public places.
Like this guy:
QuoteRepublican congressman Paul Gosar [from Arizona] tweeting that the shooter was a "transsexual leftist illegal alien".

His source for this lie was the right-wing social network 4Chan, which was busy circulating the picture of a transgender artist and wrongly claiming it was the shooter.
::)


I believe back in the 1960s was the only time the NRA supported gun control and this was because the Black Panthers had weapons and they needed/wanted to disarm them. ::)

I think this incident in particular changed things around here.
--Patrol officers needed to upgrade their firepower to be ready for more powerful shit:

The North Hollywood shootout.
QuoteThe North Hollywood shootout was a confrontation between two heavily armed and armored bank robbers, Larry Phillips Jr. and Emil Mătăsăreanu, and members of the Los Angeles Police Department (LAPD) in the North Hollywood district of Los Angeles, California, the United States on February 28, 1997. Both robbers were killed, twelve police officers and eight civilians were injured, and numerous vehicles and other property were damaged or destroyed by the nearly 2,000 rounds of ammunition fired by the robbers and police.[1]

...Standard issue sidearms carried by most local patrol officers at the time were 9mm pistols or .38 Special revolvers; some patrol cars were also equipped with a 12-gauge shotgun. Phillips and Mătăsăreanu carried Norinco Type 56 rifles (a Chinese AK-47 variant), a Bushmaster XM-15 Dissipator with a 100-round drum magazine, and a Heckler & Koch HK91 rifle, all of which had been illegally modified to be select-fire capable, as well as a Beretta 92FS pistol. The robbers wore homemade body armor which successfully protected them from handgun rounds and shotgun pellets fired by the responding officers. A law enforcement SWAT team eventually arrived with higher-caliber weapons, but they had little effect on the heavy body armor used by the two perpetrators...
...The incident sparked debate on the need for patrol officers to upgrade their firepower in preparation for similar situations in the future.[1]

I don't know how to solve this problem.  :-\
People who can do something about it, have become desensitized. I don't think the senseless death of so many children touches their hearts anymore.
Title: Re: School murder
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on May 30, 2022, 12:07:09 PM
Mags, I agree with your post. When I said the culture was not always like this, I should have confined it to around here in Texas. There were guns, but there was not the obsession with them that we see today. I hardly ever heard "2nd Amendment" growing up. Of course, mass killings started in Austin with Charles Whitman in 1966, so there was always a nut or two doing crazy things. But the average person didn't talk that much about weapons.

Then we had the Luby's massacre in Killeen in the early 90's, and that is when the laws changed about concealed carry. So that was a step toward the gun obsession. But it was when AR-15s were legal again in the early 2000s that the NRA started really screaming about gun ownership, and you began to people thinking that they needed these guns.

We have to do something. At the very least we can have more thorough background checks. We have to go through training and pass tests to get a driver's license. We should have to do at least as much to buy a high-powered rifle.
Title: Re: School murder
Post by: Asmodean on May 30, 2022, 12:16:01 PM
Quote from: Magdalena on May 30, 2022, 06:55:57 AMPeople who can do something about it, have become desensitized. I don't think the senseless death of so many children touches their hearts anymore.
Life is cheap, and getting cheaper. That's a bit of an unfortunate "side effect of the times," let's call it. Personally, I do see tragedies for what they are - even before, say, looking at pictures and/or reading stories of those affected. It's people much like me, and of whom I may one day become one. I don't have children, but I do understand loss and can step into the shoes of people who experience it - to a degree. Enough to matter.

That said, the motivation to react may very well come from the heart, but the reaction itself should come from the brain alone, I think. I'll never get my sociopathic paradise though, so... Settle for balance of reason and instinct, I suppose.
Title: Re: School murder
Post by: Magdalena on May 31, 2022, 10:38:36 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on May 30, 2022, 12:16:01 PM
Quote from: Magdalena on May 30, 2022, 06:55:57 AMPeople who can do something about it, have become desensitized. I don't think the senseless death of so many children touches their hearts anymore.
Life is cheap, and getting cheaper. That's a bit of an unfortunate "side effect of the times," let's call it.
True. Sad but true.

Quote from: Asmodean on May 30, 2022, 12:16:01 PMPersonally, I do see tragedies for what they are - even before, say, looking at pictures and/or reading stories of those affected. It's people much like me, and of whom I may one day become one. I don't have children, but I do understand loss and can step into the shoes of people who experience it - to a degree. Enough to matter.
Good.

Quote from: Asmodean on May 30, 2022, 12:16:01 PMThat said, the motivation to react may very well come from the heart, but the reaction itself should come from the brain alone, I think. I'll never get my sociopathic paradise though, so... Settle for balance of reason and instinct, I suppose.


(https://img.ifunny.co/images/0e889d5c0f0fd780f08c15ea63450dc3268b1eb573517b6d0690907093d7a617_1.jpg)
;D
Title: Re: School murder
Post by: Magdalena on May 31, 2022, 10:50:17 PM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on May 30, 2022, 12:07:09 PMMags, I agree with your post. When I said the culture was not always like this, I should have confined it to around here in Texas. There were guns, but there was not the obsession with them that we see today. I hardly ever heard "2nd Amendment" growing up. Of course, mass killings started in Austin with Charles Whitman in 1966, so there was always a nut or two doing crazy things. But the average person didn't talk that much about weapons.

Then we had the Luby's massacre in Killeen in the early 90s, and that is when the laws changed about concealed carry. So that was a step toward the gun obsession. But it was when AR-15s were legal again in the early 2000s that the NRA started really screaming about gun ownership, and you began to people thinking that they needed these guns.

We have to do something. At the very least we can have more thorough background checks. We have to go through training and pass tests to get a driver's license. We should have to do at least as much to buy a high-powered rifle.
I agree with you, something has to change. But someone somewhere is making sure mass murderers in the US have access to the best weapons that money can buy. They are better equipped than "the good guy...with a gun". ::)

People feel afraid and insecure and more guns are bought. It's a never-ending cycle. I doubt I'm gonna see changes soon.
Title: Re: School murder
Post by: Tom62 on June 01, 2022, 09:44:16 PM
It might be a good idea to restrict the purchase of new guns, but that doesn't solve the problem of any existing ones. Unless Biden wants to take them away from their owners, which would probably ignite a civil war, there are still more guns around than the total number of people currently living in the USA. The chances that they may end up in the wrong hands could be quite high. What probably would happen is that Biden's team come up with more gun laws that won't solve the problem. Something in the line of changing the minimum age for buying guns or making AR-15 type of guns illegal.
Title: Re: School murder
Post by: billy rubin on June 01, 2022, 10:09:05 PM
most mass shooter killings are not assault weapons-- theyre handguns, rifes, and shotguns. assauilt rifles are guilty of fewer shootings that kill lots of people at once.

to minimize deaths from masd shootings, we re better off ignoring ar15s and working on other stuff.

i would implement 100 percent background checks and an aggressive red flag program.  i thonk that wpuld both reduce total deaths and might have a chsnce of passing.

thrre are 20 million ar15s loose in america. no law will make them dosappear
Title: Re: School murder
Post by: Magdalena on June 02, 2022, 08:24:58 AM
Quote from: billy rubin on June 01, 2022, 10:09:05 PM...

thrre are 20 million ar15s loose in america. no law will make them dosappear
(https://m0.joe.ie/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/01221949/Colin-Farrell-GIF.gif)
--Good to know.


(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/84/72/29/8472298caf8e75cad9b466aaa7f42478.gif)
--Look at this guy, you think he has enough guns and ammunition to kill...whatever it is that he wants to kill, so bad?  :o

Question:
Is that how you do it? Two at the same time with your eyes closed?
He cant see, or hear.
 :-\

Maybe the law won't make them dissapear, but this guy looks like an accident waiting to happen.

 Darwin Award?

Should he own this stuff? Is a contract signed about being safe and responsible after one buys this stuff, or is it more like, --who gives a shit who I sell it to and how stupid you are while you use it?
 :P
Title: Re: School murder
Post by: billy rubin on June 02, 2022, 01:04:05 PM
no youre right . i think that guy is an idiot.

but hes not breaking any laws. it isnt against tbe law to be an idiot. look at our government.

im interested in stopping people from getting killed in mass shootings. i personally favour banning tbe manufacture and sale of guns like that guy is shooting.

but even if that happened, like i said, there are 20 million of them in circulation.

australia did a compulsory buy back of guns years ago. i may be wrong, but iirc only about a third of australians have complied, to date. the government keeps offering new amnesty programs trying to get them to comply.

red flag laws and background checks actually have a chance at passi g. id support them, becausr ill take anything i can get.
Title: Re: School murder
Post by: billy rubin on June 02, 2022, 01:08:50 PM
theres been another one, too.

oklahoma.

semiauto rifle and a pistol, apparently.

when i was a kid in asia people were always running amok and killing people. but they always used a knife. if we could persuade people to do that instead wed have lots fewer  deaths.
Title: Re: School murder
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on June 02, 2022, 03:50:48 PM
Here is actually a bit of good news. Florida has a law where a judge can take guns away from people. It's called a Red Flag law. So far, several thousands of people have had guns removed from them.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/06/01/politics/florida-red-flag-law/index.html

This is actually a positive improvement.
Title: Re: School murder
Post by: Asmodean on June 08, 2022, 07:58:18 AM
Quote from: billy rubin on June 02, 2022, 01:08:50 PMtheres been another one, too.

oklahoma.

semiauto rifle and a pistol, apparently.

when i was a kid in asia people were always running amok and killing people. but they always used a knife. if we could persuade people to do that instead wed have lots fewer  deaths.
Knife wounds can easily be worse to deal with, repair and survive than bullet wounds.

I do agree though. While you can be very effective at a mass stabbing, it may require some close quarter battle at an earlier stage than a shooting/firefight. After all, there's a reason wars are generally not fought with swords and spears these days.
Title: Re: School murder
Post by: Icarus on June 09, 2022, 12:15:36 AM
^  Gray One, I seriously doubt that knife wounds can be more serious than a single gunshot from an AR15.  The AR bullet makes a small hole in the front of a human torso. The exit hole is not even a hole it is a destructive area the size of a dinner plate.  Survival from a direct hit from one of those guns is damned rare. More than one of the kid victims at the Texas massacre were almost entirely beheaded with one shot. Muzzle velocities of near 3000 feet per second does that kind of damage. Those bullets are traveling at about Mach 2.5 or more. 

Pistol impacts are not even in the same league as AR 15 shots. Those projectiles are moving at much lower velocity than the rifle shots.  Even so, a 45 calibre pistol bullet can make one quite dead and somewhat mangled. Maybe not quite as mangled as the result of one of those Viking Axes, but just as dead.
Title: Re: School murder
Post by: Tom62 on June 09, 2022, 12:22:33 PM
You can also run people over with a car, like what happened in Berlin two days ago :'( .
Title: Re: School murder
Post by: Asmodean on June 10, 2022, 08:15:31 AM
Quote from: Icarus on June 09, 2022, 12:15:36 AM^  Gray One, I seriously doubt that knife wounds can be more serious than a single gunshot from an AR15.  The AR bullet makes a small hole in the front of a human torso. The exit hole is not even a hole it is a destructive area the size of a dinner plate.
Any expanding round (which I may or may not refer to as "hollow point," though specific designs may vary) of sufficient power will do that. (Pretty much "anything" above .22, but even that will do the same sort of job - just not generate an exit wound)

You can also load your AR with full metal jacket/AP rounds for penetrating power - the back side of hollow points is that they are pretty much useless against heavier armour.

QuoteSurvival from a direct hit from one of those guns is damned rare. More than one of the kid victims at the Texas massacre were almost entirely beheaded with one shot. Muzzle velocities of near 3000 feet per second does that kind of damage. Those bullets are traveling at about Mach 2.5 or more.
It's the case of concentrating a relatively small amount of force (Pretty much the same as you feel in an uncompensated single shot/bolt action gun's recoil) on an even smaller area. Flesh will give before metal, but the gun part of the equation is just in accelerating the bullet.

The damage said bullet does is largely due to the type of it and the type of target, rather than the weapon's muzzle velocity. Yes, it matters, but expanding ammo is expanding ammo. And even "very" slow, big (or clustered) projectiles can be as- or more devastating (Think shotgun slugs/pellets)
 
QuotePistol impacts are not even in the same league as AR 15 shots. Those projectiles are moving at much lower velocity than the rifle shots.  Even so, a 45 calibre pistol bullet can make one quite dead and somewhat mangled. Maybe not quite as mangled as the result of one of those Viking Axes, but just as dead.
Depends on what you are shooting with what.

Yes, the gun makes a difference, but at the ranges we are talking about, with the type of target... A unarmoured eight year old will fare as badly against a hollow point round fired from a .45 handgun as against a similar type of round from an AK-47 as against a deer slug as against a knife to a kidney.

Maybe an expanding .45 round would leave a prettier corpse - it would still leave a corpse. Even a 9mm would, when shot "center-ish of mass" into a regular kid. The exit wound "crater" may just be on the inside, rather than the outside, then.

Conversely, they would fare better against an armour-piercing round to the kidney than against the abovementioned knife.

While the AK-47 has the best combination of range, stopping power, rapid reusability and overall lethality characteristics in my comparison, those things really come into effect in combat or combat-like situations, not "ye-olde murder."

EDIT: My "clinical" analysis is good and well, but thinking about it, our own mass-shooter of kids, Mr (then-)Breivik, used a .223 Ruger, which is a similar calibre to 5.56x45 and a weapon not dissimilar to AR-14/15 for the purpose of this comparison. Left a lot of bodies that day... A fair few survivors as well, though - not all from pistol wounds. Ammunition type matters.

...Of course, I suspect that if your intention is to kill a lot of unarmoured people, you'd want reasonable close-to-mid-range accuracy, reasonably rapid fire, large ammo capacity and/or quick reload and hollow points. Actually, screw that. If body count is the only consideration, you'd want something that makes a big boom and generates tons of shrapnel in a crowded area. A bomb. So... The competency of the would-be mass murderer. That matters also. More than the choice of primary weapon type, I would say.
Title: Re: School murder
Post by: Icarus on June 11, 2022, 12:26:21 AM
Impact velocity does matter.  Aside from the F= Ma equation it is the shock wave that is a determinant of overall damage.

A recent demonstration gave visible evidence of the shock wave phenomena.  A block of rigid gelatin, about 25 cm long was the target.  A projectile from a 9mm pistol showed a fairly clean hole all the way through the length of the gel. The AR15 round with its shock wave entered cleanly. Part way through the gel, the hole became ten times larger and the exit blew out a huge chunk of gel. The shock wave did far more damage than the projectile. 

Not a pretty demonstration but surely enough to persuade us to try to eliminate the AR type weapon from citizen use.  Military use OK.  The military purpose is to destroy the enemy and set fear into the heart of his brethren.  Not what we need in elementary school settings or grocery stores.   
Title: Re: School murder
Post by: Recusant on June 11, 2022, 07:56:34 AM
Video demonstration along the lines of what Icarus described. This is AR 15 ammo into ballistics gel (used to replicate flesh in testing ammunition).

Title: Re: School murder
Post by: Asmodean on June 11, 2022, 11:27:14 PM
The above video also describes what I was talking about - he even opens with it being a test of military ammunition.

A more powerful gun is more powerful, a heavier round is heavier - that's good and well, and uncontested by me. What I do contest is that the survivability of impact on an unarmoured target is due to the gun's muzzle velocity, forgetting ammunition type.

Quote from: Icarus on June 11, 2022, 12:26:21 AMImpact velocity does matter.  Aside from the F= Ma equation it is the shock wave that is a determinant of overall damage.
That's a bit too simplistic. If it was just down to force and impulse, the recoil of a gun is your equal and opposite reaction. You can shoot high calibre anti-vehicle rounds from uncompensated bolt-action rifles without injuring yourself, while "disintegrating" your target with the kinetic impactor (Not talking about exploding munitions or any such nonsense for the purpose of this discussion)

When you concentrate the above force on a sufficiently small area, it may overcome the target's resistance. Then the projectile will penetrate. What happens then depends a lot on the design of said projectile. Some are designed to fragment and cause shrapnel damage, some are designed to deform in order to transfer as much of the impact force as possible to a soft target (even in certain less-lethal applications), and some are designed to "stay pointy" and punch through hard (herein, armoured) targets.  Others still are "just" balls of metal.

QuoteA recent demonstration gave visible evidence of the shock wave phenomena.  A block of rigid gelatin, about 25 cm long was the target.  A projectile from a 9mm pistol showed a fairly clean hole all the way through the length of the gel. The AR15 round with its shock wave entered cleanly. Part way through the gel, the hole became ten times larger and the exit blew out a huge chunk of gel. The shock wave did far more damage than the projectile.
9mm rounds are less powerful, so one would expect significant differences in performance, but I may need to ask for receipts as to the shockwave doing most of the damage. From what I understand of bullet wounds, they are generally localised to the path of the projectile. They are penetrative, (as in, puncture/cutting/tearing) not concussive (As in, blast)

That said, I don't doubt that blast/shockwave-like damage can be more severe in a gel block. It would still be interesting to see their accelerometer and impulse length data, because if we look at the above video for reference, the amount of actual force transferred into that gelatin block is... Not a lot. I suspect much of the visible damage to be an artefact of the target medium. How does it translate to damage to a human body? (EDIT: I believe there was this autopsy of this one pig what got shot with a rifle of some sort - it was already dead at the time, just so we're clear - which... I cannot find. I may not have seen it online though. May have dated a nurse-in-training for a time)

QuoteNot a pretty demonstration but surely enough to persuade us to try to eliminate the AR type weapon from citizen use.  Military use OK.  The military purpose is to destroy the enemy and set fear into the heart of his brethren.  Not what we need in elementary school settings or grocery stores. 
Eh... I'm partly with you, but I'm not that easy. When faced with a multiple variable problem, I demand a multiple variable solution. (I've talked a little about case for automatic, military-style weapons being useful in self defence. They may well have utility for other purposes too - outside strictly military use, and their increased lethality when misused is in itself a multiple variable question)

[EDIT] For background; I don't own a firearm, nor do I want one. They don't interest me much, and I live in a place where I'm very unlikely to face a robbery, much less a riot or a mass shooting. If I do - I'll do my best with whatever force- (or stealth-) multipliers I have at hand. My politics used to reflect, or rather, project that position. These days, think that given sufficient training and vetting, you should absolutely be able to get a bloody multiple rocket launcher, if you want one, even though I wouldn't, though I would ask you to maintain your eligibility as properly trained and vetted through periodic license renewal or some such system.
Title: Re: School murder
Post by: jumbojak on June 13, 2022, 09:37:19 PM
A comparison of differing barrel lengths chambered for the same round is much more telling than a caliber comparison. An AR with an eight inch barrel is not a terribly effective weapon at any distance. With a twenty inch barrel and exactly the same ammunition you suddenly have the capacity to defeat some ballistic plates at rifle ranges. Depending on the ammunition, of course.

The increase in velocity makes the difference in terms of energy.  Some popular 9mm bullets are nearly three times the mass of the most common AR rounds. I don't want to get shot with either but I am absolutely sure which I would rather be shot with.
Title: Re: School murder
Post by: billy rubin on June 13, 2022, 10:54:58 PM
you can buy AR-15 style rifles chambered for the .45-70 elephant round.

this will get you 2300 FPS with a 325 grain bullet

thats a pretty powerful charge



Title: Re: School murder
Post by: Magdalena on June 15, 2022, 07:22:48 AM
They should level the field. :reading:

Leave the powerful rifles for soldiers and a few law enforcement agents, and give everyone else one of these:

Have them watch a video, Muzzleloading 101, and they can go on their way.

...I'm just saying.  :-\
Title: Re: School murder
Post by: Asmodean on June 15, 2022, 11:03:57 AM
What would you do with that against multiple threats? Use it as a club? I mean, it's still a force multiplier to be sure, but...

Reasonably high-capacity pump- or automatic shotguns, I think.
Title: Re: School murder
Post by: billy rubin on June 15, 2022, 04:30:55 PM
interestingly, an ancient-design winchester lever action holding about ten rounds costs about US$1400.

https://images.app.goo.gl/EBgBhzo2XBg92MCKA

i can buy an AR15 clone for US$450, and ten 30-round magazines for $125

https://images.app.goo.gl/s8w9uKuNHefzfcMx9
Title: Re: School murder
Post by: Magdalena on June 15, 2022, 06:57:00 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on June 15, 2022, 11:03:57 AMWhat would you do with that against multiple threats? Use it as a club? I mean, it's still a force multiplier to be sure, but...

...

Fine. >:(

Business owners can have two.

Title: Re: School murder
Post by: billy rubin on June 16, 2022, 12:06:44 AM
Quote from: Magdalena on June 15, 2022, 07:22:48 AMThey should level the field. :reading:

Leave the powerful rifles for soldiers and a few law enforcement agents, and give everyone else one of these:

Have them watch a video, Muzzleloading 101, and they can go on their way.

...I'm just saying.  :-\

btw, this is incomplete. he neglects cleaning tbe touchhole andpriming the pan. after a few dozen shots you have to re-chip the flint az well.

lots involved in maki g a flintlock shoot
Title: Re: School murder
Post by: Icarus on June 16, 2022, 03:16:55 AM
I still claim that the men who wrote the second amendment were unaware of the Uzzi or similar rapid-fire mechanisms.

Kalashnikovs might have changed the result of the revolutionary war, depending on which side had them.
Title: Re: School murder
Post by: Magdalena on June 16, 2022, 07:40:39 AM
Quote from: billy rubin on June 16, 2022, 12:06:44 AM
Quote from: Magdalena on June 15, 2022, 07:22:48 AMThey should level the field. :reading:

Leave the powerful rifles for soldiers and a few law enforcement agents, and give everyone else one of these:

Have them watch a video, Muzzleloading 101, and they can go on their way.

...I'm just saying.  :-\

btw, this is incomplete. he neglects cleaning tbe touchhole andpriming the pan. after a few dozen shots you have to re-chip the flint az well.

lots involved in maki g a flintlock shoot

Good. That gives me plenty of time to run.   :-\
Title: Re: School murder
Post by: billy rubin on June 16, 2022, 03:03:00 PM
theres people where i live thst hunt deer with muzzle loaders

they get a different season with the bowhunters i think

interesting guns. high tech versions of old technology
Title: Re: School murder
Post by: Recusant on June 16, 2022, 04:51:22 PM
Just so everybody knows, the imaginary supreme arsehole wanted it.

"Uvalde School Massacre Was God's Plan Says Texas AG Ken Paxton – 'Life Is Short'" | New Civil Rights Movement (https://www.thenewcivilrightsmovement.com/2022/06/listen-uvalde-school-massacre-was-gods-plan-says-texas-ag-ken-paxton-life-is-short/)

QuoteThe Uvalde school shooting last month that cost 19 young children and two teachers their lives was God's plan, says Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton.

"Life is short," Paxton told radio host and pastor Trey Graham, who had asked the Attorney General what he would say to "give a little comfort" to the parents of the elementary school students slaughtered by an 18-year-old with two AR-15 style assault weapons.

After admitting that he would be "devastated" if he lost a child, "especially in a way that is so senseless and seemingly has no purpose," Paxton said, "I would just have to say, if I had the opportunity to talk to the people I'd have to say, 'look, there's always a plan,'" as Salon reports.

"I believe God always has a plan. Life is short no matter what it is," Paxton continued. "And certainly, we're not going to make sense of, you know, a young child being shot and killed way before their life expectancy."
Title: Re: School murder
Post by: Icarus on July 11, 2022, 03:49:17 AM
Texas Attorney general: delusional, brainwashed, irrational, or just plain stupid? 
Title: Re: School murder
Post by: billy rubin on July 11, 2022, 11:59:23 AM
yes.
Title: Re: School murder
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on July 16, 2022, 03:06:55 AM
Now that the video of the Uvalde debacle has been released, we can see the brave, brave, brave Uvalde police force in action. The "good guys" with guns ran away when faced with a "bad guy" with an AR-15. So much for that theory. I could almost hear them say "run away, run away!" I half way expected a large wooden rabbit to be launched on them. But now that the video is out, we can taunt them a second time. Brave, brave, brave, brave Sir Coppers.
Title: Re: School murder
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on July 16, 2022, 03:13:34 AM
I do not have law enforcement or military experience, so my proposed plan on how to respond to a situation like Uvalde is probably worth exactly what you are paying to read it. But it seems to me like a bunch of guys with assault rifles, shields and body armor could have made their way down the hall, shooting constantly at the door, but high enough to avoid hitting any kids inside, and then one guy would be assigned to keep his sights on the door in case the murderer showed himself. Maybe most of the kids would have been killed by then, but at least the matter would have been brought to a conclusion sooner. We know that some of the kids were killed during that hour-plus wait, so some would have been saved. But they did not have the training or courage to risk their lives, which, I think, is sort of what they are supposed to do. Why do we have a police force if not to put a stop to this kind of thing? Eventually, the Border Patrol or someone killed the guy, so we know it was possible.
Title: Re: School murder
Post by: billy rubin on July 16, 2022, 12:06:11 PM
they had just completed active shooter training, as i understand it.

the uvalde police were accustmed to harassing mexican americans, beating on black people, and in general being thugs with guns.

they were not good at public safety.

someone needs to release a copy of tje video with childrens screams dubbed back in, and force these bastards to put out the real one to contradict it