Happy Atheist Forum

Not sure that is the title I want. New member, if this is the wrong place to post, just move it to where it belongs.

I never went to church as a child. The first time I walked into church was when I was 16. It was an Ind.Fund. Baptist, during a revival.
Obvious the old time preacher did the hellfire and damnation and scared me to the alter. I spent a few years there. Most of my time there was a life of fear, even though as a young man I really wanted to be a Christian. Obvious they teach so much fear, even though I was doing my best, I usually waited for the lightning bolt. Understand this was a country church full of mostly uneducated people.

I finally found another church, a Southern Baptist. The themes overall were the same, but much more workable plan, large youth group, ect. I felt I belonged there. I wanted to be a Youth Minister. I spent around 5 years here. I taught Sunday School, involved in youth programs ect. I finally went to bible college.  As I studied the greek I started having severe doctrinal issues with the church. Many things that bother atheist, bothered me.  I seeked to revolve these issues within my denomination. Finally, and I felt biblically  I did not accept a place called hell. I believed it to be a pagan concept that crept it's way into the church. I found it no where in the bible as man taught it.  I wasn't trying to create a doctrine to make me feel good. I studied it biblically, historically, cultually, ect..but even that was wrong in a baptist church. Eventually most of my doctrines changed and I lost my Sunday School Class.  Before it was over, in another year I just quit church.

I was eventually stricken with a severe nerve disease. Being a Christian, many factors caused me to seek God again. Obvious I wanted help. The old "God I need you now".  Much of that traditional doctrinal thinking gets ingrained into your mind. Was God punishing me? Was I that bad? What did I need to do. I probably spent the first year praying constantly.  Why would God help others and not me. Before long I was getting bitter inwardly towards God, but still tried. Eventually it hit me that my heart was in the wrong place and I was just seeking God for my own gain...but who wouldn't. I decided to test all my beliefs. Doubt nagged.

I have a wonderful wife and son. With the economy and our medical problems we have been forced into poverty. Why seeking God through this, I have become more agnostic. Many friends think I'm just mad at God over my situation and blaming him...I really am not. I did go through that a few years ago, but these things make you think.  

 During all my studies I have come to a point of I really don't know if I believe in God. It's not about blaming him should he exist for my pain. Maybe all of this forced me to see things in life I didn't see before. I would love to believe he exist. I really wasn't trying to become an atheist, it just started happening. As I answered more questions, I guess step by step I became agnostic to a strong degree.

I am at the point of unbelief. I'm sure my situaition played some role.  I have times where I state I'm atheist to myself. It seems I'mn a battle of being stuck.  For me and all my studies life seems only fair if God doesn't exist. If God exist as religion states, biblically and emotionally I find him to be racist, egotistical, unjust and cruel..and as I say that, those are the things man are, is it possible man made up God.

 I assume some of you've believed before. How do you  or by what process were you able to stop believing? Do atheist sit there every night and doubt to the point of frustration?

Do you really get to a point you can put belief aside and move on.  

How do you deal with doubt?  I know many atheist seem to be 100% sure, but being human there must be doubts. In the end, neither side can prove one thing or the other, so some amout of reasoning must be part of the process and without proof, doubt must exist on some level.

 Do you ever get to the point you rid your mind of all doubt?

Whoa, okay I'll just tackle the questions:

- How do you or by what process were you able to stop believing?

It's a similar process to whenever you realize that you were wrong about something, it's just much bigger and much deeper so it generally takes more time and effort. For me it was a very heated debate with my freshman bio teacher about evolution. I even went so far as to bring a Bible to class, so I could cite the basis of my arguments. My bio teacher stopped holding back when I tried pulling that and she provided some of the best-supported arguments I've ever heard. I had to admit to myself that I held a deeply flawed understanding of how the world worked, and that marked the turning point away from mindlessly following the church to mindfully following evidence. It was like waking up. I will forever be thankful to my freshman bio teacher, Ms. Rose, for setting me straight.

- Do atheist sit there every night and doubt to the point of frustration?

I was very frustrated at first, but it was mostly frustration with myself for having never seen what was becoming so obvious. Otherwise, I'm generally a very un-frustrated dude. What is is, you see, and what isn't isn't. Having accepted that, life's little frustrations can be put in their proper place. When something "bad" happens to me, I don't need to rack my brain trying to figure out if it was a sign from the creator of the universe. It's just that sometimes things happen which are outside of my control and learning to adapt to them is a part of being alive. Getting frustrated (beyond the natural, initial response) doesn't really get my anywhere, you know?

Do you really get to a point you can put belief aside and move on?

- I have, as have many folks here on the Happy Atheist Forum. There's life after allowing your faith in mythology to fall by the way side, and generally it's pretty sweet. Religion brings a lot of baggage with it, like fear, uncertainty, and its own frustrations. Once you throw off those burdens, in my experience, things get better. A lot better.

Anyway, that's quite a story you've got there. Welcome to the forum and I hope we can help you find peace.

I was never really a hardcore Christian, I went to church a little, I thought there was something out there, but I was young, and like all children, I did not really have the tools to examine my ideas critically, and so I continued in that vein, ascribing things to god, trying to sort out the minor niggles that arose in my faith* from time to time. When I got to about 10, 12 maybe, I began to realise that I had ever really seen any evidence of god, the basis of my belief was simply having being told so. When I then started to look for what my belief was based on, what evidence backed up my world view, I found nothing, and thus began my slow awakening into atheism. I would not become a hardcore atheist (as in studying arguments, protracted thought, online discussion etc) until I was about 18 or so, but I had completely divorced myself from religion several years previously.

more specifically, onto your questions, the process I went through was not a conscious one, I was still young and did not take any sort of systematic approach to investigation. Simply, as the facts piled up, they piled up in such a way that I concluded atheism was the most rational, and the most likely correct world view. There were times when I still wished I believed (even now), but I cannot force myself to believe something for the sake of comfort.

I attempt to critically examine my ideas, an endeavour this site helps with, along with reading the views and opinions of others in various other areas. I am not racked with doubt every night, but I am certainly accepting of my own fallibility (the proper way to be imho). Being entirely without doubt is something our religious friends specialise in, being convinced you are entirely right is often the precursor for terrible, terrible things.

As for the last question, I will just quote Will, as he is absolutely right. Just because you no longer talk to the ceiling, or live your life by some set of rules written by bronze age goat herders, does not mean your life has to adversely affected. Do the things you love, tormenting yourself over lost faith will do no good.

Ultimately you'll have to just figure things out for yourself because how one person deals with questioning their religion may not work for another.

However, the brief version of how I got over the nagging doubt was when I one day realized the only reason I had any real doubt at all was because I had been taught to value faith.  There is no other aspect of our lives where we are asked to have faith in something we cannot someway interact with; momentarily lifting that veil opened up a new way of looking at the world and attempting to answer the big questions.  This threw me on the fence leaning pretty strongly towards atheist almost instantly (I was previously a theist, although not a believer in a personal god; the bible pretty much got me out of Christianity because it's just too absurd)  but I then also focused on studying philosophy that next semester since I wanted to learn about what scholars had said about the god question.  I didn't come across any argument for god that did not use some type of faith to jump to a conclusion or assume a premise; by the time I was getting through with my philosophy of religious course I was certain that there is no logical reason to think a god exists.

I still would classify myself as an agnostic atheist...after all, a deist god could exist and we would be none the wiser.

I think the biggest hurdle is getting over the (abusive) teaching that those who don't believe go to hell...quite a few people who have left religion and belief behind still have that nagging "what if I"m damned" feeling (typically not for longer than about 6 months).  I think that can only be undone through thoughtful reflection....or if you are lucky there might be a therapist in your area who helps those who are leaving religion (a friend of mine just started a group just for that here in Dallas).

Personally, I think Plato's Allegory of the Cave is a good metaphor for coming to atheism. I think if Plato were alive today, he'd probably say the same thing. But really, what you're going through, I can't be much help with; for as long as I can remember I've been a de facto atheist. God was always just someone else's story. Really, that's all it is.

Anyway, you've got a great little community here willing to help you with whatever you need. So welcome.

Hello MWolfe1963, and welcome.

Sorry to hear about your health and money issues.  I find that a network of family and friends (including online) can be a great help and source of comfort in such times.

I'm not an atheist, but definitely went through a process to go from being raised Roman Catholic to becoming an agnostic theist.

I found it easier to separate knowledge from belief.  Clearly, nobody has knowledge of the existence or non-existence of a god or gods.  That made the agnostic part easy for me.  The "theist" part is definitely a belief, and one rooted in my personal experience of the world around me.  For me, there's still a god - but attempting to define what god is, or what god is capable of just seems like nonsense to me.

After all, if we knew these things, then belief wouldn't be needed.

I hope you'll stick around.  It's a good group of people.  I find the core members to be intelligent, caring and empathetic.

Happy "Day of Rest" (wait... why does god need to rest?),
JoeActor

Never was indoctrinated into any religious orthodoxy.  

The older I got and the more I looked at religious institutions, listening to the statements by religious leaders concerning non-religious issues, the less I agreed with them.

When considering God(s), afterlife, ultimate justice I came to the conclusion that the only reason these concepts appealed to me was because it would be nice if they were true.  No matter how much I thought about these issues I couldn't find any justification that wasn't completely selfish.  As I couldn't find any non-selfish reasons for the existence of these concepts I finally decided that I was an atheist.

Quote from: "joeactor"Hello MWolfe1963, and welcome.

Sorry to hear about your health and money issues.  I find that a network of family and friends (including online) can be a great help and source of comfort in such times.

I'm not an atheist, but definitely went through a process to go from being raised Roman Catholic to becoming an agnostic theist.

I found it easier to separate knowledge from belief.  Clearly, nobody has knowledge of the existence or non-existence of a god or gods.  That made the agnostic part easy for me.  The "theist" part is definitely a belief, and one rooted in my personal experience of the world around me.  For me, there's still a god - but attempting to define what god is, or what god is capable of just seems like nonsense to me.

After all, if we knew these things, then belief wouldn't be needed.

I hope you'll stick around.  It's a good group of people.  I find the core members to be intelligent, caring and empathetic.

Happy "Day of Rest" (wait... why does god need to rest?),
JoeActor

I guess my path is quite the same..From a young earth, to old earth, to thiest, ect...Seemingly the more I study and reason the less sense God made. In all my studies, the real intent wasn't to find atheism, but to figure out who or what God is, it just led to becoming more agnostic. Basically people ask, I guess I plead agnostic.

I know a faith in God can bring great hope to people. To one that is sick, one that is dying, to one that has lost a loved one. Real or imagined faith is a tool that gets people through the hardest of time. In some ways I almost wish I still had that faith, it got me through some hard times, but now I just go numb to it. I do miss hope, but now it's a fake hope, like why should I trick my mind to believe something that doesn't exist.

I have grown to ..hate radical fundie Christian behavior, even why I was a Christian in title I argued constantly with them. I guess in the end you can't prove either way, so it's a matter of reasoning.

I read Living Without God: New Directions for Atheists, Agnostics, Secularists, and the Undecided (http://www.amazon.com/Living-Without-God-Directions-Secularists/dp/1582435308/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1265091826&sr=8-1). The final chapter is dedicated to the subject of hope without God. It was quite good. It's been a while since I read it though and I can't be more specific. There's a limited preview on Amazon.

Thanks for that link and book suggestion AIP. I checked the preview on Amazon and bought the book.
You'll never know how much I appreciate it.

^^ I hope you like it

Hello and welcome!

The way I look at doubt and belief is that it all is a process. And in the end the most important thing is that you do the best you can to be the best you can. I've never believed in god, so I don't have experiences to share about a deconversion. I can tell you that labels are always limited. I sometimes call myself atheist, agnostic, freethinker, humanist, or my favorite, open-minded skeptic. Labels are shorthand, and they, by necessity, leave so much out. I consider myself an atheist because I don't have a god belief. I consider myself an agnostic because I don't think we can know whether there is something out there that might be deemed a god. My mom and I are interesting examples. I would deem her an agnostic deist. She thinks there is probably "something out there", but doesn't bother trying to define it because she thinks its unknowable. I consider myself an agnostic atheist. I don't believe in god, but I wouldn't be shocked down to my socks if it turned out there was "something out there." BUT, and this is a big but, if there is something, I feel 100% comfortable saying the abrahamic gods are a piss poor description of any real possibility. In other words, I feel totally confident that the god of the bible/koran/torah does not exist.

I wish you luck with your philosophical search, your finances, and your life.

Quote from: "MWolfe1963"Do you ever get to the point you rid your mind of all doubt?

Just another option....

If doubt exists naturally, maybe roll with it, embrace it, let it be.  Be patient.  No big rush.  See what happens.

Doubt has value.   Maybe there's no compelling reason to get rid of it?

Ther is no real concrete gideline to decide where you fall in the non-believer spectrum, to any religious person we're all one and the same. Without any central organisation to tell us what to think, non-believers can mix and match their beliefs fromwhatever we chose :)
An agnostic is someone who just isn't sure , about the existence of a deity.

All my life I heard people talking about God so eventually I got around to looking into this God thing and I came to the conclusion that it was all made up, all of it. That settled that!

When I was young, my parents taught me to fear evil things like murderers, rapists, pedofiles, and believers.

Quote from: "Ellainix"When I was young, my parents taught me to fear evil things like murderers, rapists, pedophiles, and believers.

Awesome!  A signature worthy quote.  

Quote from: "Ellainix"When I was young, my parents taught me to fear evil things like murderers, rapists, pedofiles, and believers.

Welcome to the Happy Atheist Forum.   Enjoy your hate.  

Your statement is the equivalent of....

QuoteWhen I was young, my parents taught me to fear evil things like murderers, rapists, pedofiles, and gays.

QuoteWhen I was young, my parents taught me to fear evil things like murderers, rapists, pedofiles, and blacks.

QuoteWhen I was young, my parents taught me to fear evil things like murderers, rapists, pedofiles, and Iranians.

And the great classic of course....

QuoteWhen I was young, my parents taught me to fear evil things like murderers, rapists, pedofiles, and Jews.

Sig Heil!!

Quote from: "Ellainix"When I was young, my parents taught me to fear evil things like murderers, rapists, pedofiles, and believers.

If only more parents were so considerate of their children's future.

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Firanpoliticsclub.net%2Fhistory%2Fnazis1%2Fimages%2FHitler%2520Nazi%2520Salute.jpg&hash=5a4820c13ec0586b962e5d4d245628a85049b9fc)

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fteachers.henrico.k12.va.us%2Fgodwin%2Fhoen_l%2Fartinsight1%2Fart3projects%2FComputerArtVisualPuns%2FArtistWorks%2FPhotoshop%2520Visual%2520Puns%2FBoneHead.jpg&hash=fc1111cfcedd5b645906b56d238908d0c10951cf)

Ha, ha, ok J, you win.  

I'd rather be a bone head than a nazi, so I accept your photo.

Quote from: "Typist"I'd rather be a bone head than a nazi

How do you know? What do you have against Nazis?

But, but, if I was a nazi, I'd be a bone head too!  Both, at the same time.   Oh my, it's all so confusing...

Can I be a Butthead instead?    Now THAT I understand!

Did you know I was the April 2008 centerfold for Bozo Magazine?

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.whataboutclients.com%2Farchives%2Fbeavis_and_butthead_mtv_image.jpg&hash=9dca70795f7a0b6c77a8644d0f06c1e0abe4d683)

Quote from: "Ellainix"When I was young, my parents taught me to fear evil things like murderers, rapists, pedofiles, and believers.

Not a joke, by the way.

I was never big on organized religion, churches made me cringe, but I believed in God in my own way.  The process for me was more like having an epiphany, where I suddenly realized how ludicrous the idea was.  Imagine, if humanity had not had religion ingrained for millennia, if someone today began spouting about a hand coming from the sky and molding clay, breathing life into it.  They would simply be laughed at until they were considered dangerous, then locked in an asylum somewhere.

The miracles of nature are enough for me.

Quote from: "Ellainix"When I was young, my parents taught me to fear evil things like murderers, rapists, pedofiles, and believers.

Quote from: "Ellainix"Not a joke, by the way.

You know, in reading over the thread, I see I am a bone head.

I assumed you were bragging about what your parents taught you, and trying to score "ain't that cool" points.  

But you didn't state your opinion.  You just stated a historical fact about your childhood.  It wasn't you applauding, but others.

Would you care to clarify how you feel about your parent's teaching now that you are no longer a child?

If I jumped to incorrect conclusions, then I suck, and apologize sincerely.  

If I got it right, then well, you know, see posts above etc...

Quote from: "Typist"You know, in reading over the thread, I see I am a bone head.

Nay, you were merely exposing us to your point of view.

My parents warned me of the bad in the world, and they also justified why.

Believers think they are saving my mortal soul. I believe they want 10% of my income and my voting ability to impose their power and rules upon society.

I'll never be convinced that Jesus came back from the dead in any holy or spiritually relevant manor, and I will never be convinced that anything was sacrificed if he did come back 3 days later.

QuoteNay, you were merely exposing us to your point of view.

Well, you know, so much of my bone head appears above my shirt, it's hard not to expose it.  See the photo above!  Thanks for understanding.

QuoteBelievers think they are saving my mortal soul. I believe they want 10% of my income and my voting ability to impose their power and rules upon society.

Some believers do think that, yes.   Some do not think that way.   The conversation might be more precise, more logical and objective, more fair, if we  were able to distinguish between the two.  

It's also true that some atheists are very interested in converting theists, saving their minds so to speak.   And some atheists don't share this interest in conversion.

Quote from: "Typist"

QuoteNay, you were merely exposing us to your point of view.

Well, you know, so much of my bone head appears above my shirt, it's hard not to expose it.  See the photo above!  Thanks for understanding.

QuoteBelievers think they are saving my mortal soul. I believe they want 10% of my income and my voting ability to impose their power and rules upon society.

Some believers do think that, yes.   Some do not think that way.   The conversation might be more precise, more logical and objective, more fair, if we  were able to distinguish between the two.  

It's also true that some atheists are very interested in converting theists, saving their minds so to speak.   And some atheists don't share this interest in conversion.

I usually like to steer clear of absolutes because there's always an exception. However, i do slip up from time-to-time and may accidentally make a blanket accusation where it isn't warranted. I think, before perceiving many of us as 'fundie atheists' it would be prudent to read back many of the posts from the regular members of this board to get a better picture of where we stand on such matters.

The moderators here are fair and balanced. I've seen them correct theists and atheists alike regarding such objective and fairness related issues.

Put it this way, i'm pretty sure no one here considers ALL religious people as bad.

U could try checking google or wikihow and just search what is an atheist.

The word atheist was first used in like the 1400's by adding the Greek 'a' to the front of the word "theist." Theist roughly means "with god" and the prefix 'a' means "without," "lack of," "absence of," "not" so when applied to the word "theist" it means "without god." The first usages of the word atheist didn't mean "non-believer" but just to describe anyone who wasn't Christian. However because this wasn't a very useful word because we already had definitions like "non-Christian" and "Christian" so the words theist and atheist changed to mean "one who believes in god" and "not one who believes in god" respectively.

Because of the Greek prefix of "a" at the start of atheist, all atheist means is really based on the definition of theist because whatever is defined as "theist" or "theism" an atheist is not that and atheism is not that, respectively.

Other than that, you'll find a lot diversity among atheists and this may seem a little weird at first. I think it would be good to get a perspective on the word theist for you get a little bit of a handle on the word atheist: most people assume that atheism and atheists are some kind of group and generally have this perspective that theism and theist means their religion. But let's look at the diversity of theism:
   1.  Christianity: 2.1 billion
   2. Islam: 1.5 billion
   [strike:13js0y2a]3. Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist: 1.1 billion[/strike:13js0y2a](ignore)
   4. Hinduism: 900 million
   5. Chinese traditional religion: 394 million
   6. Buddhism: 376 million
   7. primal-indigenous: 300 million
   8. African Traditional & Diasporic: 100 million
   9. Sikhism: 23 million
  10. Juche: 19 million
  11. Spiritism: 15 million
  12. Judaism: 14 million
  13. Baha'i: 7 million
  14. Jainism: 4.2 million
  15. Shinto: 4 million
  16. Cao Dai: 4 million
  17. Zoroastrianism: 2.6 million
  18. Tenrikyo: 2 million
  19. Neo-Paganism: 1 million
  20. Unitarian-Universalism: 800 thousand
  21. Rastafarianism: 600 thousand
Source (http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html)

Those are just the top ones, not even all of them. This list of theistic religions, I doubt are all things that a theist believes in. So when looking at an atheist, remember that theism (while very diverse) is far more grouped than atheism.

tl;dr: An atheist is just a person that doesn't believe in god.

Quote from: "MWolfe1963"If God exist as religion states, biblically and emotionally I find him to be racist, egotistical, unjust and cruel..and as I say that, those are the things man are, is it possible man made up God.

The God of the Bible is all those things.
 

Quote from: "MWolfe1963"I assume some of you've believed before. How do you  or by what process were you able to stop believing?  

Just for the record, I wouldn't consider myself an atheist, I just don't believe in any organized religions.

I stopped believing mainly because I didn't want to anymore. I couldn't justify to myself believing in something that is as you said racist, egotistical, cruel, sexist and in many cases just plain evil. Since then, I've realized just how pathetic some of the claims made by Christianity (which was my previous religion) were.

Quote from: "MWolfe1963"Do atheist sit there every night and doubt to the point of frustration?

I don't. I wonder if maybe there is a God who really screwed up creating this world. Sometimes I can get really into it with myself, but then I just think "Hey, if there is, it doesn't matter. Just be a good person and you'll find out when you die". If I ever do doubt that maybe I shouldn't have given up Christianity (which I don't really anymore) I just remember that I would rather burn in hell than go to the heaven of the Bible.

Quote from: "MWolfe1963"Do you really get to a point you can put belief aside and move on.

Yes. I have and it only took about a year and a half.

Quote from: "MWolfe1963"How do you deal with doubt?  I know many atheist seem to be 100% sure, but being human there must be doubts. In the end, neither side can prove one thing or the other, so some amout of reasoning must be part of the process and without proof, doubt must exist on some level.

As I said before, sometimes I have doubts that maybe I might be wrong. I know the evidence points to atheism being the most logical choice. I just really don't care about my doubts. I just tell myself to live the best way I can. As I said before, I just remember that I would rather burn in hell than go to the heaven of the Bible.

Quote from: "MWolfe1963"Do you ever get to the point you rid your mind of all doubt?

I still have doubts, they just no longer bother me.

What was odd for me is, as when I was religious I had overwhelming doubts about the existence of God.  The evidence is simply not there, no matter how much we or anyone else will try to spin it.  Yet, I have no doubts about the fact that there is no god.  I am quite comfortable with the latter.

When, I took time to look at ALL of it.  I saw that I cannot be a part of the whole system.  What turns me off, and even disgust me is that there is a sizable amount of Christians who are quick to judge, point fingers, preach, and stomp on anyone and everyone, but they do exactly the same or worst. You have these people who still lie, cheat, steal, sleep around, etc, but have no qualms pointing that out in everyone else.

It is all of that that made me walk away from all of it in addition to all of the "faith" dogma that does not reconcile with reality.

Quote from: "MWolfe1963"Do you ever get to the point you rid your mind of all doubt?

No. I remain somewhat unsure there isn't an evil god plucking the wings of any special people he can find. I handle this by being up on christian theology and battle tactics of people like Alexander the Great so if I get the chance I can assassinate god or at least lead the soldiers in hell to a victory. God's a bad dude. If he exists he's an asshole and needs to be dethroned. Although I wouldn't mind keeping Micheal around- he was the only one really loves mankind you know. The rest of them including god could care less about us.

I've heard conflicting opinions, from atheists, as to what atheism is. Some say that atheism is not a belief that there's no god, others maintain that it is, and other say that it can be either. The best way of looking at it in my opinion is to take a look at the word itself. The A in atheism effectively means "no...", the Theism refers to god, and the Ism indicates a doctrine or belief. So you could say that the word Atheism means : A belief that there is no god, or, {no-god}-belief. Of course, the literal meaning of the word and atheists' different views on what atheism is, differs.

Quote from: "Filanthropod"I've heard conflicting opinions, from atheists, as to what atheism is. Some say that atheism is not a belief that there's no god, others maintain that it is, and other say that it can be either. The best way of looking at it in my opinion is to take a look at the word itself. The A in atheism effectively means "no...", the Theism refers to god, and the Ism indicates a doctrine or belief. So you could say that the word Atheism means : A belief that there is no god, or, {no-god}-belief. Of course, the literal meaning of the word and atheists' different views on what atheism is, differs.

Attempting to define the word to suit yourself is a highly disingenuous behaviour, it's called creating a straw man, but you know that anyway.

Quote from: "Tank"

Quote from: "Filanthropod"I've heard conflicting opinions, from atheists, as to what atheism is. Some say that atheism is not a belief that there's no god, others maintain that it is, and other say that it can be either. The best way of looking at it in my opinion is to take a look at the word itself. The A in atheism effectively means "no...", the Theism refers to god, and the Ism indicates a doctrine or belief. So you could say that the word Atheism means : A belief that there is no god, or, {no-god}-belief. Of course, the literal meaning of the word and atheists' different views on what atheism is, differs.

Attempting to define the word to suit yourself is a highly disingenuous behaviour, it's called creating a straw man, but you know that anyway.

I'm just looking at the word, and what its constituent parts mean, and therefore what the word means. I don't really understand why there's disagreement among atheists as to what atheism means, when all you have to do is check out the word. If you don't agree with the word, just use another one that more closely describes your view.

Atheists have no trouble defining the word in terms of it's current usage. In the past it may have mean 'doesn't believe in God' but currently it gets defined more often than not as 'Insufficient proof of God exists to convince one of God existance' which is not the same. One can not prove a negative so one can't prove the assertion that there is no God. So the word atheist is going through a bit of a usage change/re-qualification. This was a real hot topic at Richard Dawkins forum and what tended to happen is the theists would try to use a semantic argument that because atheists didn't 'believe' in God their word view was simply a 'Faith' and therefore an illogical position. Somewhat ironic considering the theistic interlocutors based their own world view on Faith!  

And you say I'm redefining the word? That's ironic. I think there should be different words, used correctly, to apply to different views, such as :

- I believe that no god exists
- I don't have a belief either way

If we had separate words which clearly meant different things, it would prevent some from playing semantic games with a word which has a very specific meaning.

I simply add the modifier "agnostic" to my admission of atheism, to denote that I am not claiming that "there is no god" but rather "I don't know if there is or isn't, but I am currently unconvinced and live as if there isn't."

Surely an agnostic atheist is either :

I don't know whether or not I believe in nogod
I believe in nogod, but I don't know for sure if there isn't one

Putting "I don't know" in front of a word that means "belief in nogod" doesn't change much. Of course you don't know.

Quote from: "Filanthropod"Surely an agnostic atheist is either :

I don't know whether or not I believe in nogod
I believe in nogod, but I don't know for sure if there isn't one

Putting "I don't know" in front of a word that means "belief in nogod" doesn't change much. Of course you don't know.

No.  An agnostic atheist is one who says, "I don't know whether or not god(s) exist, but I have no faith in them; nor do I see sufficient reason to believe."

But don't let me interrupt your strawman-bashing, it looks like you're having a regular rave-up.

Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"

Quote from: "Filanthropod"Surely an agnostic atheist is either :

I don't know whether or not I believe in nogod
I believe in nogod, but I don't know for sure if there isn't one

Putting "I don't know" in front of a word that means "belief in nogod" doesn't change much. Of course you don't know.

No.  An agnostic atheist is one who says, "I don't know whether or not god(s) exist, but I have no faith in them; nor do I see sufficient reason to believe."

But don't let me interrupt your strawman-bashing, it looks like you're having a regular rave-up.

Quite so, a rare example of La Petite Mort!

Quote from: "Filanthropod"I've heard conflicting opinions, from atheists, as to what atheism is. Some say that atheism is not a belief that there's no god, others maintain that it is, and other say that it can be either. The best way of looking at it in my opinion is to take a look at the word itself. The A in atheism effectively means "no...", the Theism refers to god, and the Ism indicates a doctrine or belief. So you could say that the word Atheism means : A belief that there is no god, or, {no-god}-belief. Of course, the literal meaning of the word and atheists' different views on what atheism is, differs.

The word atheism is derived from Greek. The main word is "theos", which has a prefix of "a" and a suffix of "ism".
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0907013.html
http://www.usu.edu/markdamen/Wordpower/handouts/gkaffix.pdf
a (not, absence of, without) - theos (god) - ism (act, state, belief in or theory of)

So we combine them: without belief in god.

While the "a" could be translated from Greek as the word "no" it can only be done so in the correct context with something meaning the same thing as "having" which means instead of just "no" it must mean "having no" which means that your translation is very incorrect not only in changing the meaning of the "a" but also moving that incorrect meaning to a place it doesn't belong.

Of course we can argue what the meaning of the word is all day for weeks, however, no matter how you define the word: it won't change the opinions and/or view points of anyone by just changing the definition of the word. Even if you changed the word rational to mean "those who accept anything told to them as true" I will still not accept anything as true without sufficient reasonable evidence. So all you're really doing is taking a perfectly good and useful word, and destroying the meaning.

The derivation of the word 'atheist' is a seperate issue from that of its meaning. For example, the word 'caterpillar' derives from cater (meaning 'tomcat') and piller (meaning 'despoiler'). And yet caterpillars are not tomcats, and only some of them are despoilers of crops.

For the meaning of a word, look at how it is actually used. In language, 'atheists' are 'people who do not believe in god'. Its very simple, really.

Indeed, it's an effort to define something out of existence.