So, assume that the demise of "big gods" means that multi-cultural societies no longer have any cohesive belief system that binds them together. What answer to atheists have, if any? Most modern nations are multi-cultural now. In the US, the guiding principles of "all men are created equal" and "are endowed by their creator with inalienable rights" is not working so well right now. What else is out there to keep us from descending into the violent hell of tribalism/racism? We just saw 74,000,000 people vote for Trump - who is not exactly the epitome of egalitarianism. We've been battling with this problem for 400 years. Yet the people who live here cannot seem to get past the basic idea that we are bound together by ideals, not ethnicity. It's depressing. Is US-type democracy a failed experiment?
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on November 29, 2020, 01:04:03 AM
So, assume that the demise of "big gods" means that multi-cultural societies no longer have any cohesive belief system that binds them together. What answer to atheists have, if any? Most modern nations are multi-cultural now. In the US, the guiding principles of "all men are created equal" and "are endowed by their creator with inalienable rights" is not working so well right now. What else is out there to keep us from descending into the violent hell of tribalism/racism? We just saw 74,000,000 people vote for Trump - who is not exactly the epitome of egalitarianism. We've been battling with this problem for 400 years. Yet the people who live here cannot seem to get past the basic idea that we are bound together by ideals, not ethnicity. It's depressing. Is US-type democracy a failed experiment?
The thing is, those 74 million people who voted for Trump were largely Evangelical Xtians -- and tribalism/racism seems pretty common for them. I don't think we can look to Xtians (at least not the Conservative ones) to be a bulwark against violence of any kind. All things considered, we never really could.
And most of the modern nations that are multi-cultural now, at least in the West, are also very secular if not outright atheistic. I don't say we can look to them either as examples of how to do it because our culture is nothing like secular and unlikely to be any time soon, but I think they do stand as examples that a large multi-cultural society without big gods can be done. It's encouraging if nothing else.
As for the real question, I don't think atheists have an answer. It's hard to know how to deal with people you have nothing in common with who are just itching to start killing perceived enemies, one of whom is you. I think this problem is in the lap of non-Evangelical/Fundamentalist Xtians, who at least share a basic belief system with them, to talk them off the crazy ledge.
I have taken the liberty of splitting this off from the 'Why God' thread as it is deserving of its own specific discussion.
Quote from: Sandra Craft on November 29, 2020, 01:32:52 AM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on November 29, 2020, 01:04:03 AM
So, assume that the demise of "big gods" means that multi-cultural societies no longer have any cohesive belief system that binds them together. What answer to atheists have, if any? Most modern nations are multi-cultural now. In the US, the guiding principles of "all men are created equal" and "are endowed by their creator with inalienable rights" is not working so well right now. What else is out there to keep us from descending into the violent hell of tribalism/racism? We just saw 74,000,000 people vote for Trump - who is not exactly the epitome of egalitarianism. We've been battling with this problem for 400 years. Yet the people who live here cannot seem to get past the basic idea that we are bound together by ideals, not ethnicity. It's depressing. Is US-type democracy a failed experiment?
The thing is, those 74 million people who voted for Trump were largely Evangelical Xtians -- and tribalism/racism seems pretty common for them. I don't think we can look to Xtians (at least not the Conservative ones) to be a bulwark against violence of any kind. All things considered, we never really could.
And most of the modern nations that are multi-cultural now, at least in the West, are also very secular if not outright atheistic. I don't say we can look to them either as examples of how to do it because our culture is nothing like secular and unlikely to be any time soon, but I think they do stand as examples that a large multi-cultural society without big gods can be done. It's encouraging if nothing else.
As for the real question, I don't think atheists have an answer. It's hard to know how to deal with people you have nothing in common with who are just itching to start killing perceived enemies, one of whom is you. I think this problem is in the lap of non-Evangelical/Fundamentalist Xtians, who at least share a basic belief system with them, to talk them off the crazy ledge.
:this:
While most Christians won't kill an 'Other' for their beliefs or lack of belief in god(s), there is a very clear us-versus-them with those of more fundamentalist and conservative leanings.
Some people just tend to be more fearful and less likely to entertain new ideas -- their brains respond differently and see threats (to their beliefs, lifestyle and so on) where there are none. In my experience fundamentalist Christians, especially Evangelicals, are more likely to be that way. They make the perfect manoeuvrable mass for politicians such as the shithead Bolsonaro, who plays on fear to sway people his way. People who are afraid don't think, they feel and react.
But anyway, I won't be going off on a tangent here. ;D
When people make decisions on bad data that doesn't represent reality, they tend to make bad choices. And the more shaky the foundation the more they try to keep it up. That's why people should choose to live their lives by trying the best they can to get an accurate representation of reality. That means not accepting things without sufficient evidence, which means no longer believing in a god or gods.
My Sunday newspaper has an article about atheism.. University of California at Los Angeles (UCLA) has done some studies to determine who the atheists or agnostics are. The study suggested that the emergence of atheism in The U.S. is somewhat connected to age and gender.
Four in ten millennials, or people born after 1980, do not identify with religious tradition. One factor tends to stand out: gender. Atheism skews male. Tracking the gender gap by age between men and women, at one point, narrows. Between ages 30 to 45 men are no more likely than women to be religiously unaffiliated. The gap appears again among older Americans. Over the age of 60 men are 5 to 8 percent more likely to express no religious affiliation.
One theory of Social Science is that the "life cycle effect" is in play. Parents of smaller children are more likely to be involved in church settings to lean on support structures that religion may provide. After the children leave the nest, religious participation tends to diminish.
When Jesus returns he is going to be pissed.
Quote from: Icarus on March 07, 2021, 08:15:17 PM
My Sunday newspaper has an article about atheism.. University of California at Los Angeles (UCLA) has done some studies to determine who the atheists or agnostics are. The study suggested that the emergence of atheism in The U.S. is somewhat connected to age and gender.
Four in ten millennials, or people born after 1980, do not identify with religious tradition. One factor tends to stand out: gender. Atheism skews male. Tracking the gender gap by age between men and women, at one point, narrows. Between ages 30 to 45 men are no more likely than women to be religiously unaffiliated. The gap appears again among older Americans. Over the age of 60 men are 5 to 8 percent more likely to express no religious affiliation.
One theory of Social Science is that the "life cycle effect" is in play. Parents of smaller children are more likely to be involved in church settings to lean on support structures that religion may provide. After the children leave the nest, religious participation tends to diminish.
When Jesus returns he is going to be pissed.
I thought Donald Trump was Jesus. His followers act like he is.
Quote from: Randy on March 07, 2021, 08:49:42 PM
I thought Donald Trump was Jesus. His followers act like he is.
Unlike Jesus, there will be the second coming of Trump.
Quote from: Tom62 on March 14, 2021, 09:02:16 AM
Quote from: Randy on March 07, 2021, 08:49:42 PM
I thought Donald Trump was Jesus. His followers act like he is.
Unlike Jesus, there will be the second coming of Trump.
Oh tap dancing Jesus on a pogo stick, say it isn't so!
Quote from: Randy on March 16, 2021, 12:43:11 AM
Quote from: Tom62 on March 14, 2021, 09:02:16 AM
Quote from: Randy on March 07, 2021, 08:49:42 PM
I thought Donald Trump was Jesus. His followers act like he is.
Unlike Jesus, there will be the second coming of Trump.
Oh tap dancing Jesus on a pogo stick, say it isn't so!
I wish it isn't true, but I'm afraid Trump will come back in 2024.
Quote from: Tom62 on March 16, 2021, 12:22:34 PM
Quote from: Randy on March 16, 2021, 12:43:11 AM
Quote from: Tom62 on March 14, 2021, 09:02:16 AM
Quote from: Randy on March 07, 2021, 08:49:42 PM
I thought Donald Trump was Jesus. His followers act like he is.
Unlike Jesus, there will be the second coming of Trump.
Oh tap dancing Jesus on a pogo stick, say it isn't so!
I wish it isn't true, but I'm afraid Trump will come back in 2024.
I offered this spoon but it wasn't accepted
(https://i.imgur.com/Mjatj2U.png)
That must mean he will be back, it must, no other splanation.
Multi-culturalism is not failing in the West because Christianity is failing in the West. Christianity is monotheistic and therefore diversity is not in its make-up. To me, Christianity is pure hate for the whole of humanity. Hate is what binds it together.
There is a lot ot be said about multiculturalism, both one way and the other. There are cultures, which hold opposing values. Easy examples are their relative approach to family, the sexes, sex or, for that matter, religion. Such cultures do rub each other the wrong way, contributing to people grouping together to distance themselves from the opposing culture and/or get closer to their preferred one. Then again, integration is not a thing that can just be "given" - it has also to be "taken." Is it a failuire of multiculturalism? Perhaps. Perhaps it's more of a blind spot. Or perhaps it does foster acceptance and understanding in some non-intuitive way.
Then there is another aspect of multiculturalism - my ability to order Chinese, sushi, tika masala or a kebab with a single app and get it to my door within the hour. In my book, at least, that one's a triumph.
Christianity is very much a diverse set of beliefs. Wars have been fought over (or maybe under the cover of) that diversity. That is another topic that would be interesting to talk about, but I'll save it for another time.
As for hate, it is a strong emotion. As such, it can divide or bring people together. However, I think the word "hate" may often be over-used, to describe lesser emotions, which may, in their turn, be enough to create in- and out-groups. Of course, I base that assessment mostly on my personal emotional dullness. Whenever I'm being accused of hate, I experience nothing of the sort. It may be different for more... Fiery people, I suppose.
The hoomans suck!
I. Hate. Them. All.
All of us :(
Tanks are cool though. Big engines, driving around big threads with big turrest and long guns. :smilenod:
The Asmo approves, and thinks that places like Ukraine really ought to have more.
No one is the heart of darkness.
Flattery, will get you nowhere!!!!!!
Quote from: No one on April 25, 2023, 09:38:35 AMFlattery will get you nowhere!!!!!!
I'm vain. Flatter me all you like.
Why atheism? Why the hell not?
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on November 29, 2020, 01:04:03 AMSo, assume that the demise of "big gods" means that multi-cultural societies no longer have any cohesive belief system that binds them together. What answer to atheists have, if any? Most modern nations are multi-cultural now. In the US, the guiding principles of "all men are created equal" and "are endowed by their creator with inalienable rights" is not working so well right now. What else is out there to keep us from descending into the violent hell of tribalism/racism? We just saw 74,000,000 people vote for Trump - who is not exactly the epitome of egalitarianism. We've been battling with this problem for 400 years. Yet the people who live here cannot seem to get past the basic idea that we are bound together by ideals, not ethnicity. It's depressing. Is US-type democracy a failed experiment?
Your post makes little sense. There is a Christian Church on every block and left to their own devices they would be killing one another for following false prophets. The Evangelic against the literalists. The Catholics against the Christians. Everyone against JW. Mormons waiting for it all to end so they can take over the world. Everyone is against Islam. Where did you get the idea that religion was some sort of unifying force? Capitalism has been more of a force for unification than any religion. That does not mean it does not have its faults. Obviously, it does, but it pulled Singapore, New Zealand, Australia, Switzerland, Ireland, Taiwan, UK, Estonia, Canada, Denmark, and the USA together, among others. There are thousands of bonding forces out there that can top religion.
Quote from: Cognostic on May 02, 2023, 09:24:31 AMQuote from: Ecurb Noselrub on November 29, 2020, 01:04:03 AMSo, assume that the demise of "big gods" means that multi-cultural societies no longer have any cohesive belief system that binds them together. What answer to atheists have, if any? Most modern nations are multi-cultural now. In the US, the guiding principles of "all men are created equal" and "are endowed by their creator with inalienable rights" is not working so well right now. What else is out there to keep us from descending into the violent hell of tribalism/racism? We just saw 74,000,000 people vote for Trump - who is not exactly the epitome of egalitarianism. We've been battling with this problem for 400 years. Yet the people who live here cannot seem to get past the basic idea that we are bound together by ideals, not ethnicity. It's depressing. Is US-type democracy a failed experiment?
Your post makes little sense. There is a Christian Church on every block and left to their own devices they would be killing one another for following false prophets. The Evangelic against the literalists. The Catholics against the Christians. Everyone against JW. Mormons waiting for it all to end so they can take over the world. Everyone is against Islam. Where did you get the idea that religion was some sort of unifying force? Capitalism has been more of a force for unification than any religion. That does not mean it does not have its faults. Obviously, it does, but it pulled Singapore, New Zealand, Australia, Switzerland, Ireland, Taiwan, UK, Estonia, Canada, Denmark, and the USA together, among others. There are thousands of bonding forces out there that can top religion.
Secularism has served the West well, but now, it's failing.
The atheist is a forgotten voice in politics.
The religious shit on atheists from great heights.
Quote from: MarcusA on July 02, 2023, 12:05:10 AMThe atheist is a forgotten voice in politics.
And so it should be. Good politics is secular with no need for theist or atheist leanings.
Quote from: Tank on July 02, 2023, 12:21:51 PMQuote from: MarcusA on July 02, 2023, 12:05:10 AMThe atheist is a forgotten voice in politics.
And so it should be. Good politics is secular with no need for theist or atheist leanings.
America is doomed to endure the crackpot rulings of the religious right. Our political system has become cursed with religious dogma. Even our Supreme Court has become twisted toward the religious right.
Christian Nationalists have enormous influence over our elected representatives. They insist that they can tell us what books to read, what meds you can take, what words you can say, what history you can learn, what you can do with your uterus, what gender you are and who you can love.........
Yes, they've managed impressive steps toward imposing a minority rule thanks to the archaic electoral/government structure imposed by the US Constitution, written in the 18th century. They've had it pretty good and want more. At the same time they recognize that their ideals and goals are not shared by the majority of the country. It frightens them and makes them more zealous about their agenda.
The rules of a minority of people are abhorrent, and yet the majority of people never check or halt this ruling minority, for the majority don't wish to rule. The majority just want peace at any price.
Quote from: MarcusA on July 07, 2023, 02:22:29 AMThe rules of a minority of people are abhorrent, and yet the majority of people never check or halt this ruling minority, for the majority don't wish to rule. The majority just want peace at any price.
In the US, this is complicated by the structure of the government and the way presidential elections are tallied. Clinton beat Trump handily in the popular vote in 2016 (by about 3 million votes), but the Electoral College system gave Trump the election. Biden beat Trump by about 7 million votes in the popular vote but barely squeaked by, for the same reason.
The Electoral College is tied to the US Senate, where a state like Wyoming with about 600,000 population gets 2 US senators, while a state like New York with a population of about 20,000,000 gets two senators as well. This inherently anti-democratic state of affairs is dictated by the US Constitution. The Constitution can be amended but it's difficult to accomplish, and in this instance nearly impossible: It would require the cooperation of the people who represent states like Wyoming.
The US Constitution was made by honest and good men.
Quote from: Recusant on July 07, 2023, 03:20:59 AMThe Constitution can be amended but it's difficult to accomplish, and in this instance nearly impossible: It would require the cooperation of the people who represent states like Wyoming.
Or one could strengthen the state and weaken the fed. Add a Con- to the federation.
Obviously not quite that simple, but it would at least be a way of tackling the issue, where people from abovementioned New York don't get to rule those from Wyoming unless Wyoming is in on it.
they were not representative of the people, and their views are less so now.
constitutional originalists forget that the declaration of indepence earlier specified "with the consent of the governed." that is not so today.
...So why would the governed in Wyoming consent to the possibility of being blanket-overruled by the governed in New York in matters concerning their own affairs?
Democracy is tricky. It's far too easy to end up with the tyranny of the majority, then overcompensate and turn it into the tyranny of some given minority, which is one-step removed from Aristocracy/Oligarchy... Until you remove that step also.
Can an atheist escape politics? It's very unlikely.
Quote from: MarcusA on July 14, 2023, 06:57:34 AMCan an atheist escape politics? It's very unlikely.
I don't think belief status has anything to do with.
Just do what Isabel does
Isabel!
Can an atheist escape religion? It's very unlikely.
Quote from: MarcusA on July 16, 2023, 07:11:04 PMCan an atheist escape religion? It's very unlikely.
By definition an atheist has already escaped religion if they were at some point religious. From my time at the Richard Dawkins Forum the ratio of never-theist atheist to ex-theist atheist was almost exactly 50:50. If that can be extrapolated to the general atheist population half have escaped religions.
To be rid of politics and religion completely is what I wish for on a fine winter's day.
I don't believe bullshit tales.
Like Adam and Eve and Noah's ark.
I don't believe supernatural tales.
Like virgin birth and rising from the dead.
I don't believe ghost stories.
Like saints rising from the grave.
I don't like arrogance.
Like the idea of the god almighty.
I don't like the licence given by the bible to enslave and rape.
I don't like the false promise of immortality.
Getting tired with this.
You have found your club :)
Zorkan, all of us here have either skepticism or outright rejection of supernatural claims.
There is at least one of us who is quietly but seriously angry about the way that American society is being threatened by Christian Nationalists.
The third person in line for becoming the commander in chief of this nation is an outspoken Christian nationalist. His stated ambition is to make the USA a totally Christian nation.
To be a Catholic christian, you have to cherry-pick the Bible.
Like, if you start to mention Noah's Ark the subject will soon be changed on the basis that it's allegorical.
To all other churches the bible is the holy word of god from beginning to end.
Its biggest bullshit story has to be what happened on the 6th day of creation week.
It says all humans were plonked down fully formed.
That must have included all human species, not just Sapiens.
So what were Adam and Eve?
True Christians believe that dinosaurs walked the earth with humans, and Catholics are not Christians.
They don't believe in Big Bang cosmology.
They can't explain if god is on the inside or the outside.
Yet they believe he is everywhere.
Doesn't that remind you of something called the electromagnetic force (the holy ghost)?
PS A few years ago I debated all this on the Worthy Christian Forum, before I was thrown off.
They can't tolerate any awkward questions.
cute video with far reaching implications......
That is fascinating. I think. I'm not that sure now :o