Can Good Exsist Without Evil?

[toink33]

Thank you to those who post to this topic, I often asked myself such questions ( like my latest one : if in the beginning there is only god... ) I get to learn what others think.

[Mastriani]

There is no good nor evil.  They are fallacious constructs of the hominid mind, incapable of accepting the chaotic and temporal existence.

[Will]

Mastriani is basically right. The concepts of good and evil are a basis upon which to gauge the shades of gray we are surrounded by and are ourselves. It's like using negative infinity and infinity in math. Neither exists in nature, but the concepts of each are a theoretical basis upon which to build everything in between. Do good and evil exist in reality? Not really. The idea of something perfectly moral and something that is perfectly immoral in reality isn't possible (or is subjective). Some things are very moral or very immoral, and in order to gauge them we have our absolute values of each.

[Mastriani]

Certainly, constructs of the hominid imagination.  Not sure that "good and evil" even qualify for theory, more like whimsical fantasy.

Of course, there are always those who will argue for the actuality of morality under the social contract pretense.  At the end of the day, it comes down to what sphere of imagination you use to make yourself comfortable in a violent world.

[Will]

Morality is a real life application of the golden rule, and the golden rule is the basis unpon which positive intrepersonal relationships exist in our society. If I am driving on the road and I see someone struggling to fix a flat tire, I have no developmental qualms about stopping and helping. It has no real survival benifits, but I do feel good about it, and I'm sure the person with the flat appreciates it.

[Mastriani]

Your scenario only works under the pretense of the social contract theory, which is a hominid construct.

Predator, prey, resource.  Everything else is an imagination sequence.

[Will]

I understand what you're saying, but to ignore hundreds of thousands of years of social development, in any species, is like watching the TV without the sound on. You're missing something. Also, the morality of which I speak places value on other members of the community, which essentially means that you put value into the continuation of your species. If everyone helped everyone else, mankind would be safer and more likely to continue into the future. Even though it's not a proven survival trait yet, it's likely. Look at wolves and other pack animals. It's general knowledge that their social structures play an active role in their survival, and that the stronger from the pack will help the weaker.

I'm curious, how would you feel if you were the person with the flat tire, and I was the one to stop by and help out? Or what if I had a flat? Would you stop and help out?

[McQ]

Your scenario only works under the pretense of the social contract theory, which is a hominid construct.

Predator, prey, resource.  Everything else is an imagination sequence.

All hominids?  :wink:

[Mastriani]

I understand what you're saying, but to ignore hundreds of thousands of years of social development, in any species, is like watching the TV without the sound on. You're missing something. Also, the morality of which I speak places value on other members of the community, which essentially means that you put value into the continuation of your species. If everyone helped everyone else, mankind would be safer and more likely to continue into the future. Even though it's not a proven survival trait yet, it's likely. Look at wolves and other pack animals. It's general knowledge that their social structures play an active role in their survival, and that the stronger from the pack will help the weaker.

I'm curious, how would you feel if you were the person with the flat tire, and I was the one to stop by and help out? Or what if I had a flat? Would you stop and help out?

First, you will have to answer this question:  Do you want my honest response, or a socially acceptable one?

I really don't have the patience for vitriolic pissing matches on the internets any more.

[Will]

First, you will have to answer this question:  Do you want my honest response, or a socially acceptable one?

Absolutely. Judging by your previous post, you wouldn't be as comfortable with the socially acceptable response.

I really don't have the patience for vitriolic pissing matches on the internets any more.

I'm not interested in sarcastic back and fourths either. I know I'm smarter than some people and some people are smarter than I, and having come to terms wih that I am out here on the interweb partially to see what other people think and maybe teach a little and learn a little, but mostly to make fun of president Bush.

[Mastriani]

Absolutely. Judging by your previous post, you wouldn't be as comfortable with the socially acceptable response.

Unexpected, but thank you nonetheless.  My perception of my known attitudes towards the situation are as thus:

1.  I do not trust other hominids.  If you stop to "help" me change a flat, my caution would be up, as there is an automatic assumption of alterior motive or agenda.

2.  No, I would not stop.  Two reasons:
a. Again, there is no certainty that the flat tire is not a ruse for an        alterior motive or agenda.

b.  There are no indicators that there is a resource advantage to such empathetic or "altruistic" behaviors.

I'm not interested in sarcastic back and fourths either. I know I'm smarter than some people and some people are smarter than I, and having come to terms wih that I am out here on the interweb partially to see what other people think and maybe teach a little and learn a little, but mostly to make fun of president Bush.

LMMFAO ... good on ya mate.  On that we can agree.

[donkeyhoty]

regarding ulterior motives, I concur.

But, when was the last time you(and by you, I mean anyone here) saw someone with a flat tire on the side of the road?

I would especially be wary of that situation since, for the life of me, I cannot remember the last time I witnessed such a situation.  Plus, AAA isn't that expensive, and they'll come and do that shit for you.

[Will]

I was using the flat tire as an example.

Any time I see someone at a green light struggling to push his or her car out of the way, obviously in need of assistance, I'd be all over it. I am all over it. I do it whenever I can.

I guess the question is: do I have an alrerior agenda? The short answer is: I get off on pushing cars, sexually. The serious answer is: altruism is a part of my personality. Not helping out would be like not wanting to breathe or not wanting to eat. Does it serve a purpous? Not for me, but it sure does for the person I'm helping. I'm a socialist and a humanist.

[Whitney]

I'll help people if it's a situation where I'd feel safe doing so....I wouldn't feel safe stopping at the side of the road to help someone I don't know (even if the person really does need help that doesn't mean he or she isn't a criminal and I'd rather be safe than sorry); yet, if they looked like they need help I will call the police station and tell them someone needs assistance.

For instance, hitchhikers need help because they have no car but that doesn't mean it's safe to pick them all up.

[Mastriani]

I guess the question is: do I have an alrerior agenda? The short answer is: I get off on pushing cars, sexually. The serious answer is: altruism is a part of my personality. Not helping out would be like not wanting to breathe or not wanting to eat. Does it serve a purpous? Not for me, but it sure does for the person I'm helping. I'm a socialist and a humanist.

Mind you, before making any of the following statements, I make clear that it is not a matter of judgement, assuming fault on any individual, or an attempt at an ad hominem attack; I only use what is in evidence, to wit:

My answer would be, whether knowingly or unknowingly, you have an alterior agenda.  Social contract has been a lengthy, and mostly valuable, development in hominid sociality.  Also, other primates and other species of the higher order exhibit this, as a survival trait.

Whether or not your awareness of your imaginative capacity announces  your altruism is always exercised off the hidden agent of currency in social transactions, reciprocity, is not important.

There are two reasons this occurs:  You are an alpha specimen attempting to gain with less energy expenditure, what is available by proxy of social contract; or you are an omega specimen, and maintaining the defined parameters of the social contract, guarantees you continuance.

Most never take the time to view what we do socially as hominids, but it is an economic (resource) transaction.  

When you state:

Not helping out would be like not wanting to breathe or not wanting to eat.

This shows that it is deeply engrained into the biochemical framework, to assist in the capacity to ensure continuance, (procreation).  It actually goes to the extent, genetically, that moving away from the social process, can cause physical repercussions.

To balance the scales of the discourse, there is another side represented by myself and some of the other posters: strict competitiveness of the reptilian mind.  Noticed in all of our commentary; lack of trust, solitary notions of the self security by not taking part in the social contract, and likelihood of tendencies toward more aggressive reactions with sensations of insecurity, (assumed under bias).

Together we represent the theoretical balance of sociality:  altruism under social contract ensures some resource leveling; reptilian minded competitiveness allows for "herd culling".

Both are strategies for the procreative assurance, species continuance.

Back to the OP, this is why "good and evil" do not exist, it is a matter of genetic impetus for the largest part of behavior indicators.  The consequence attached to the behaviors is judgment by the imaginative capacities of the hominid mind.