Can Good Exsist Without Evil?

[toink33]

I have some born again friends, when they figured out that I don't believe in their god, they told me I should and one of the reasons they give me is that heaven is a great place that there will be no bad things, no suffering, no pain, and that all will be happy because everything that is bad don't exsist in heaven.

I asked them how can one know what is happiness/good when the idea of all things bad/evil does not exsist in heaven.

One of them just points me to some page in the bible.

What do you guys think?

[bmxrider724]

well if there was just heaven at first then good would not be a word, but since the earth is here and then theres heaven.(fyi i have a personal relationship with God) so since we know that the earth is sourounded by evil slash bad slash whatever you wanna call it, we can say that heaven is all good, because its taking everything out of the world that is bad. maybe i confused you maybe i didnt. thats my view

[Tom62]

Valhalla is even better. There you can feast on roasted boar and drink lots of mead. The company there is much more fun than in heaven, because instead of boring angels that are playing lutes you are in the company of war heroes who don't bother themselves with concepts like good or bad. You can also put some dynamite around your waist and blow up some christians in the name of Allah. In that case you are rewarded in your afterlife with loads of virgins (if there is something left of you, what I sincerely doubt). Other people believe in reincarnation, so you better lead a good life or otherwise you'll turn into a shrimp .

[Faylen]

I wonder how happy they'll all be when they can see so many of their loved ones roasting away below. . .

[SpiralExit]

good owes Evil for making it Good..
if there's no illness, there's no health, if there's no bad, there cant be good, it would be just a standart line..

so if everything is great, and nothing bad, you cant "compare" so it will be a BORING standart line for you.. thats why there can be no heaven.. and hell either..

[Court]

Well, we don't know, do we? Christians have to face this: We cannot have knowledge that doesn't start with experience. You can't know if evil and good could exist outside of each other, because you've never had an experience for that. You can't even really know if evil and good exist, if they're not just some abstract concepts we made up and have passed on socially for centuries. So, asking "Can good exist outside of evil?" is the wrong question. It's unanswerable.

[toink33]

I learned this from taoism.

The opposites need each othert, yin and yang are part of the tao, they may oppose each other, but they are part of the whole. If what is ugly does not exist, how can you define beauty?

Heaven, if there is such a place, I also think it would be boring, maybe it is a mindless place.

[Court]

I don't really buy the idea that everything is defined by its opposite. It completely ignores those things that don't have opposites, like "hat", "twine", "clock", "time", "space", "immortality", "substance". How do we define time when it has no opposite? Time doesn't even have degrees like lightness and darkness do. There's no reason, then, to think that we would not be able to define a concept (or have the concept at all) without its opposite in existence.

[pony1976]

I don't really buy the idea that everything is defined by its opposite. It completely ignores those things that don't have opposites, like "hat", "twine", "clock", "time", "space", "immortality", "substance". How do we define time when it has no opposite? Time doesn't even have degrees like lightness and darkness do. There's no reason, then, to think that we would not be able to define a concept (or have the concept at all) without its opposite in existence.

hi, my first post! How exciting is that?

Anyway, aren't all those things you mentionned made of matter? The opposite of matter is called anti-matter. I am not so sure about anti-time, though.

I think the concept of heaven being boring, due to it's lack of bad stuff, is valid; an eternity of it would drive me to craziness.

Not to mentioned as someone mentionned above, knowing that your loved ones and fellow humans are roasting eternally like a boar in Valhalla.

did I mention that the WWGHA forum is down?

[Court]

Yeah, I noticed that. What's up with it?

And yes, there's anti-matter (so that drives out substance), but for individual concepts (like a concept of leather, for example), there is no opposite. Saying anti-matter covers that concept is like saying black covers the concepts of all the other colors. If we define ALL the other colors by opposing them to black, what delineates each color?

[pony1976]

Yeah, I noticed that. What's up with it?

And yes, there's anti-matter (so that drives out substance), but for individual concepts (like a concept of leather, for example), there is no opposite. Saying anti-matter covers that concept is like saying black covers the concepts of all the other colors. If we define ALL the other colors by opposing them to black, what delineates each color?

Black is the opposite of colour. That we can deferentiate between the components of white light is besides the point. It's all light and black is it's opposite.

The good and bad concepts are the same, I figure. There are different kinds and degrees of good; magnanimity, kindness, gentleness...etc. But that does not change the fact that bad is the opposite of everything we call good, and without the oppsing concept (with all it's different components that we can differentiate as well) we could not appreciate it's value.

I suppose I should add that the curent cold snap up here is appreciated because I know how comfortably warm it is down there, and I am very very jealous.

Not jealous about the big jesus in the stduent center, however, that simply would not happen in Canada. I can't believe that that is happenign in a university.  You have my deepest sympathy

[Court]

I have to disagree with the good and bad thing. Unfortunately, it just doesn't hold up, because not all abstract concepts have opposites. If the concept of time can exist and be understood (to a degree) without the concept of anti-time existing, then I see no reason to assume or accept the possibility that "good" or "bad" concepts could not be held without their opposites existing.

[toink33]

After thinking about it for a few days I can say Court is right, there are concepts that do not need the opposites to exsist, I can even add some like "idea" and "shapes or form". These have no opposites.

But in soome cases I still cannot see one can be without the opposite like inside/outside, how can you say something is inside without knowing what outside is?

I think this is the case with good and evil.
It is one reason I cannot accept an all good heaven.
There is no morality in heaven,
In heaven, you can murder, rape, and hurt, with nobody caring.
Maybe that is what the God did,
He manage to kill, command murder, and rape
because he is not interested in what is right and wrong
all he wants is people to worship him.

[Big Mac]

There is no good or evil in reality, only what we as self-aware beings put out. An animal does not have good or evil in it. It cannot be held accountable for its actions. Though they still perform "evil" actions like goring, maiming, eating, biting, stinging, poisoning people who come across them. We humans have added emotional attachment to actions and called some good and others bad. This isn't too terrible as rape, murder, molesting, stealing, beating people isn't good for society hence we do need to refrain from it.

[donkeyhoty]

Although not all concepts need an opposite to be understood, like a chair, what were discussing is dynamics, more easily understood with music.  How do you know what loud is without quiet? Or, fast without slow?  
You don't need to know the opposite of a chair, if such a thing exists, to understand it.  Without some concept of good and evil, neither would exist, nor could we actually understand the concept. i.e If everyone and everything moved at the same speed there would be no fast or slow.

In terms of the original post there could be perfection in heaven, if it too exists, only if we have memory of our concepts of good and evil here on earth.

I agree with Big Mac in that good and evil are defined by the culture we are in.  The Aztecs sacrificed humans to their Gods almost daily.  While we, whatever that is, might consider this evil, for the Aztecs it was good and necessary.