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Are Blacks & Whites TRULY equal?

Started by Kevin, January 12, 2009, 01:19:56 AM

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Ihateyoumike

Circumstances of birth should not be a source of pride or shame. I think once everyone lets go of the past and learns from it and moves on, racism and bigotry can die. Unfortunately, there will always be the "other guy is holding me down" attitude, no matter what the race. Every race has dealt with it, some more than others, but like so many other things, until we learn from it we can't move on.

QuoteRacism is simply an ugly form of collectivism, the mindset that views humans strictly as members of groups rather than individuals. Racists believe that all individuals who share superficial physical characteristics are alike: as collectivists, racists think only in terms of groups. By encouraging Americans to adopt a group mentality, the advocates of so-called "diversity" actually perpetuate racism. Their obsession with racial group identity is inherently racist. The true antidote to racism is liberty. Liberty means having a limited, constitutional government devoted to the protection of individual rights rather than group claims. Liberty means free-market capitalism, which rewards individual achievement and competence, not skin color, gender, or ethnicity.

    * Ron Paul, Government and Racism, April 16, 2007
Prayers that need no answer now, cause I'm tired of who I am
You were my greatest mistake, I fell in love with your sin
Your littlest sin.

Sophus

Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"Obviously no one read the White Whine article I linked. I'll summarize the relevant point to this: nearly every other college fund and church IS a National White College Fund or a White Church.
Due to the ratio and probability, correct? Not that if you're of another race and try to join you wouldn't be accepted?
‎"Christian doesn't necessarily just mean good. It just means better." - John Oliver

karadan

Quote from: "chuff"Being a former racist, I can completely relate with where you're coming from.  


You used to be racist? Wow. I've not heard that statement from anyone before. That must have taken one hell of an effort to break free from it and admit you were wrong, or at least, 'ill advised'.

I've actually had someone say to me before "is it because i am black?"
My answer to that was, "No, it is because you're an idiot."

I generally stay as far as possible from the race issue. I just do not want to touch it with a barge pole. I'm not racist and that's good enough for me.
QuoteI find it mistifying that in this age of information, some people still deny the scientific history of our existence.

DennisK

Quote from: "Wraitchel""They" had race based privileges because they were needed. They still are. Do a tiny bit of research and you will find that statistically a person of color does not make as much on average as a white person does. It is harder to get a good job, a good education. Sure, in many places the opportunities have equalized, hence our soon to be president, but don't try to tell me that your average inner city minority kid is as safe or has as many opportunities as a white kid. As a woman, who also has a glass ceiling to contend with, I think that white males whining because the underdogs are still having to organize and fight for protection and rights is pathetic. This country still has a racist underbelly. I saw it in the election. Didn't you?
I agree with you.  If everything is so terrific to be black like having a whole month of glorious history celebration or having the freedom to use racial slurs, who here would admit they would be willing to change places with any black man or woman?  Exactly!

Curiousity, I did not read your post about "White Wine", because there's enough of it here to go around.  Unfortunately, there's not a cheese strong enough to stand up to the finish.
"If you take a highly intelligent person and give them the best possible, elite education, then you will most likely wind up with an academic who is completely impervious to reality." -Halton Arp

DennisK

Quote from: "chuff"Being a former racist, I can completely relate with where you're coming from.

There are plenty of inconsistencies like these.. Affirmative action is a policy that makes the playing field less level, in the minorities' favor, blacks have their own sections for books in the bookstore, their own magazines, TV channel, yet none of these natural segregations are looked down upon.

Plus, it's pretty noticeable that, given the choice, they will congregate together and separate themselves.. I can't tell you how much empirical evidence I've gathered from simply living and going to public places that they naturally section themselves off from the other groups.. in fact most races do this, except for whites, because for us it is now culturally taboo.

For them to be proud of the fact that they were born black is to be lauded and commended, open the champagne!
But for one of us to be proud of the fact that we were born white is an atrocity and could get you a prison sentence if you aren't careful.

It's very much inconsistent and wrong in the current system (and I speak for America here). Racial quotas and affirmative action make it impossible not to take race into account when making decisions (which is a practical definition of racism).

In striving for equality, we've enforced its opposite.
Alcoholics, I'm told, don't ever fully get rid of their urge to drink.  Your comments don't lend themselves to keep the claim of "former".
"If you take a highly intelligent person and give them the best possible, elite education, then you will most likely wind up with an academic who is completely impervious to reality." -Halton Arp

curiosityandthecat

Quote from: "karadan"You used to be racist? Wow. I've not heard that statement from anyone before. That must have taken one hell of an effort to break free from it and admit you were wrong, or at least, 'ill advised'.

Agreed, it's hard to admit that you're a racist. Sadly, the majority of Whites are racist and the majority of men are sexist. This isn't as bad as it sounds, and it doesn't mean what most expect it to mean. Being a "racist" is simply not actively refuting the system of White privilege. That's all. Being a "sexist" is simply not actively refuting the system of male privilege. A White person saying, "I have Black friends" is not proof that s/he is an anti-racist. It most likely just means they have class or work with a Black person. It rarely refers to someone they spend time with outside those places in any meaningful way.

I went through the same thing a few years ago, when I was confronted by an aging Black man who later went on to become more or less my surrogate father. It was tough. I wasn't a bigot, and still am not, but I was definitely perfectly fine and comfortable with being nicely seated in a position of extreme privilege. It was a breakthrough. I started reading works by bell hooks, Molefi Kete Asante, Malcolm X, ML King (Trumpet of Conscious, especially, is amazing), Huey P. Newton, Paul Lee and Peggy McIntosh. I started studying concepts like Black liberation theology,, Afrocentrism, the Critical Race Theory I mentioned above, and anti-racist pedagogy. I learned a lot about the real racism in the United States, specifically, and even more about myself.

Quote from: "DennisK"I agree with you.  If everything is so terrific to be black like having a whole month of glorious history celebration or having the freedom to use racial slurs, who here would admit they would be willing to change places with any black man or woman?  Exactly!

Curiousity, I did not read your post about "White Wine", because there's enough of it here to go around.  Unfortunately, there's not a cheese strong enough to stand up to the finish.

Doing the "would you like to change places with a Black person" exercise was one of the first things that set me on the road to anti-racism. Others have said, "Why would I want to change me? I like being me." It's not about that. It's a question that refers to giving up a position of privilege and power. There's an old saying: "Snakes won't bite themselves. Batters won't strike themselves out." Those in positions of power almost never freely relinquish that power on their own volition. The unfortunate aspect of this is when the oppressed seize power and become, themselves, the oppressors. It has happened all too often.

I'll gladly be the cheese to stand up and finish. I've spent years dealing with my own racism and sexism. I've spent countless nights laying awake, wondering if I really am "that guy." I've tried to explain it to other White folk, but none of us (including myself) can ever truly understand unless we find ourselves in a country or a place where we really are the minority in every sense of the word. Even this is difficult, as in most places throughout the world being White and speaking English with an American accent is like having a free pass, whether it be because the local population loves us or just lets us slide, muttering, "Baka gaijin..."

Incidentally, using atheism to compare to the prejudice or oppression felt by women and minorities doesn't work. You can't "see" atheism. You can't assume atheism by a name or clothing. Just thought I'd toss that out there.
-Curio

Ihateyoumike

Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"Sadly, the majority of Whites are racist and the majority of men are sexist. This isn't as bad as it sounds, and it doesn't mean what most expect it to mean. Being a "racist" is simply not actively refuting the system of White privilege. That's all. Being a "sexist" is simply not actively refuting the system of male privilege.

Really?? I mean seriously??
Read this statement two or three or six times real quick... see if you can see the huge, glaring errors in what has been stated.

I'll point out the obvious first, in case you all missed it...
I have had friends of different races (yes, I am "white") who do not actively refute the "system of white privilege." They racist?

My Mother, whom I love dearly, has never once refuted the "system of male privilege." She sexist?

Ok, ok, I'll cut you off at the pass here, I know you probably meant to put "Being a "racist" [white guy] is simply not actively refuting the system of White privilege."

I'll accept that argument a bit easier.
HOWEVER, to paint all of us with a racist and sexist brush is a little much, don't ya think?

If black gentlemen should not be thought of any differently due to the situation of their birth that is waaay beyond their control (skin color) then why shouldn't it be the same for me as a white man? Simply because I was born white, which I didn't ask for, I am obligated to stand up against anything that may be unfair for people of other races??

Does this mean that all black people NEED to follow Jesse Jackson in his messages simply because they're black?
Shouldn't every Native American fight back against the U.S. citizenry because we stole their land, or else they're sub-par?
For that matter, I've never helped Native American's fight to get their land back, even though I see what happened to them was wrong, does that make me more racist in this viewpoint?

I think generalization is a huge part of racism. I think painting anybody with any certain brush simply because of their skin color is wrong. And, unfortunately, I think that's easy for any educated, otherwise thoughtful and helpful person, to fall into that trap. And I think this is an example of that.

Oh, and for the record. I (a white male) am neither racist, nor sexist. I believe if everyone wants to be equal (as we all deserve) we need to get past anything that gives unfair opportunity to anyone because of something as trivial as skin color or chromosome pairings.
This includes "white privilege" and "the united negro college fund" and "title 9" and everything in between.
Prayers that need no answer now, cause I'm tired of who I am
You were my greatest mistake, I fell in love with your sin
Your littlest sin.

Wraitchel

Hey Curio, was your spoiler list from Heart of Whiteness by Robert Jenson? I read that a few months ago. It was very enlightening.

I have to say I am delighted that white men are feeling threatened by the rise of minorities and women. It's been a long time coming! :banna:

curiosityandthecat

Quote from: "Ihateyoumike"Ok, ok, I'll cut you off at the pass here, I know you probably meant to put "Being a "racist" [white guy] is simply not actively refuting the system of White privilege."

I'll accept that argument a bit easier.

Yes, that is what I meant. I assumed it was implied, but I suppose I should've been clearer. I want to re-emphasize what I said about being a racist and a sexist, in that it does not necessarily mean that one is a bigot, simply that one lives in the system of power that favors one race or sex. In the United States, for example, a woman could not be a sexist, per se, however she could certainly hate men and express bigoted, prejudicial disgust toward them. It's political. It's about power.

Quote from: "Ihateyoumike"If black gentlemen should not be thought of any differently due to the situation of their birth that is waaay beyond their control (skin color) then why shouldn't it be the same for me as a white man? Simply because I was born white, which I didn't ask for, I am obligated to stand up against anything that may be unfair for people of other races??

If you consider yourself an anti-racist, then yes, precisely. If you agree that the racist system of privilege is unfair and should be fought against, then not standing up against it places you in the racist camp. I know this is hard to hear and even harder to come to terms with, but it's true. It doesn't mean you're a bad person, that you hate Black folk or any other race, it just means that you're normal. You live in a system of privilege, you enjoy those privileges (consciously or unconsciously) and understand that there are those in society against which the system is geared.

This is not a case of "if you're not with us, you're against us" or, as the Republicans like to say when Iraq II began, "If you're not for the war, you're against the troops." Some people see it that way. It's not.

Quote from: "Ihateyoumike"Oh, and for the record. I (a white male) am neither racist, nor sexist. I believe if everyone wants to be equal (as we all deserve) we need to get past anything that gives unfair opportunity to anyone because of something as trivial as skin color or chromosome pairings.

This is where you begin to miss the point. Not everyone wants to be equal. Everyone loves the idea of equality, but few people are willing to give up what they have so others can enjoy that equality. The Black population surely wants to be equal (though I hesitate to use that word, as it implies that the Black population in-and-of itself is lacking in some way that would be made up for by the "evening out" with Whites, with which I most certainly disagree) with the White population in some aspects, as it would mean an end to the de facto segregation and racist system that still permeates the country. Does the White population want this? Does the White population all want to give up a measure of privilege and power in some tremendous altruistic act of love simply because they want someone else to have the freedom they deserve? I'm not so sure.

Quote from: "Wraitchel"Hey Curio, was your spoiler list from Heart of Whiteness by Robert Jenson? I read that a few months ago. It was very enlightening.

I have to say I am delighted that white men are feeling threatened by the rise of minorities and women. It's been a long time coming! :banna:, hah. Power is a tricky thing. Those in power will never, as I said, freely give up that power (in its entirety) simply because the oppressed demand it. It must be taken. Check out Freire's Pedagogy of the Oppressed. It's intellectually brutal and will likely put you into a synapse overload... it's dense, but extremely powerful. (We would spend four hours discussing a single paragraph during my graduate work.) Then again, there are some of us White men who feel no threat whatsoever about the "rise of minorities and women".  :| Obviously, I just skimmed it, but I'll go back through with more energy at some point. I need to return some books, jeeze.
-Curio

Sophus

Quote from: "Wraitchel"I have to say I am delighted that white men are feeling threatened by the rise of minorities and women. It's been a long time coming! :banna:
I'm all for equality and "the rise of minorities or women." I just find it humurous how there's a huge double standard in the country.
‎"Christian doesn't necessarily just mean good. It just means better." - John Oliver

Ihateyoumike

Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"Yes, that is what I meant. I assumed it was implied, but I suppose I should've been clearer. I want to re-emphasize what I said about being a racist and a sexist, in that it does not necessarily mean that one is a bigot, simply that one lives in the system of power that favors one race or sex. In the United States, for example, a woman could not be a sexist, per se, however she could certainly hate men and express bigoted, prejudicial disgust toward them. It's political. It's about power.

Fair enough. I assumed that's what you meant, I simply wanted clarification. I agree it is about power.

Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"If you consider yourself an anti-racist, then yes, precisely. If you agree that the racist system of privilege is unfair and should be fought against, then not standing up against it places you in the racist camp.

I both agree and disagree with this statement. I believe that perhaps this statement needs to be expanded. I do agree that the racist system of privilege is unfair and should be fought against... by those who have the means to do so. I myself was born to a family who, through the hard work of my Dad and the loving support at home from my Mom, gave me the opportunities that others may not have had. My parents had a college fund that they set up for my siblings and myself which none of my older siblings (I'm the youngest) needed due to athletic scholarships. I was not as athletically gifted as my brothers and my parents offered to use the college fund to pay for my education. I declined because I was not the type of person who wanted to have everything handed to me. Does that make me better than anyone? No. In hindsight, it makes me feel stupid for declining since I was not able to work my way through college on my own. I dropped out and joined the working class. I have self educated myself to a point, however, some day when I have worked my way back to the position to do so, I plan to get a higher education of some form. At this point, I am living in a situation where I have no means to stand up for what I believe is right, except for individual one-on-one discussions concerning my beliefs. That is not to say that I won't do so once I have (hopefully) gained a position to do so. It may simply be semantics, but I believe that the statement "If you agree that the racist system of privilege is unfair and should be fought against, then not standing up against it places you in the racist camp." is unfair and needs to be expanded to, "If you agree that the racist system of privilege is unfair and should be fought against [and you have the means to stand up against it], then not standing up against it places you in the racist camp." Do you see how much difference that makes?

Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"This is where you begin to miss the point. Not everyone wants to be equal. Everyone loves the idea of equality, but few people are willing to give up what they have so others can enjoy that equality.

I'm not sure if I missed the point, or if this is simply a matter of semantics again. Not everyone does want to be equal. Unfortunately, there will always be people of all types who want to hold all the power over others. And, I'll have to disagree that everyone loves the idea of equality.

Quote from: "Wraitchel"I have to say I am delighted that white men are feeling threatened by the rise of minorities and women. It's been a long time coming!

Quotes like this (to me) don't sound like the wanting of equality, but the wanting to suppress the "white man's" power and give it to minorities and women. That doesn't sound like equality to me. And as for your statement, "but few people are willing to give up what they have so others can enjoy that equality." I agree, few people are willing. Even less people are able. I would gladly do what I could to help the situation, if I were in a position to do so. Unfortunately, I have to focus my energies on taking care of myself and figuring out how I am going to eat and afford rent next month being currently unemployed and job-seeking in this horrible economy. And, maybe I'm being naive, but I'd like to think that there are alot of people out there like me who would stand up and have their voice heard if they were able to put themselves in a position to do so.

And finally, to end this post, I'd like to thank you curiosityandthecat. I joined this forum yesterday and have already read quite alot of insightful postings by yourself and other regulars. I'd like to thank you for giving your ideas in a manner becoming of an educated, thoughtful human being. Thoughtful discussion online without being demeaning to others' viewpoints is hard to find, and (barring Messenger) I seem to have found a place where exactly that is possible. So thank you, and everyone else who adds to these discussions in that way.  :beer:
Prayers that need no answer now, cause I'm tired of who I am
You were my greatest mistake, I fell in love with your sin
Your littlest sin.

McQ

Quote from: "Wraitchel"I have to say I am delighted that white men are feeling threatened by the rise of minorities and women. It's been a long time coming! :)
Elvis didn't do no drugs!
--Penn Jillette

Wraitchel

Quote from: "Ihateyoumike"
Quote from: "Wraitchel"I have to say I am delighted that white men are feeling threatened by the rise of minorities and women. It's been a long time coming!

Quotes like this (to me) don't sound like the wanting of equality, but the wanting to suppress the "white man's" power and give it to minorities and women. That doesn't sound like equality to me. And as for your statement, "but few people are willing to give up what they have so others can enjoy that equality." I agree, few people are willing. Even less people are able. I would gladly do what I could to help the situation, if I were in a position to do so. Unfortunately, I have to focus my energies on taking care of myself and figuring out how I am going to eat and afford rent next month being currently unemployed and job-seeking in this horrible economy. And, maybe I'm being naive, but I'd like to think that there are alot of people out there like me who would stand up and have their voice heard if they were able to put themselves in a position to do so.

It isn't that I want to put white men down, though I know that is what it sounds like. The fact is that I have been angry for a long time about the fact that there is no way I will ever earn as much money as my husband does. Sure, he is trained in a valuable field, but that is a result of the culture that raised him to do that. He has MS, and is on the road to inevitable disability. We have three kids. It would be really nice if I could earn enough to support them, but even with more education added to my BA, I cannot. I am very aware that there is still inequality, and if white men are feeling threatened, perhaps that means the inequity is closer to being remedied.

SSY

Curio, I think you are wrong in so many ways in thsi thread.

Your definitions of racism and sexism are all wrong for starters. A racist is someone who bases decisions about others on their race and not on the individual characteristics of that person, nothing more or less. Just beause I don't go waving a placcard at every anti-racist march does not make me a racist.

Your long list of questions, I'll illustrate my answers to a few.

1 I sure can, as can everyone else I know, regardless of racfe. In fact if anything at my university, it is the east adn southern asian students I notice who segrgate themselves into their own communities and groups far more so than white people.

2 I asume by this you mean people of other races? Well, as a matter of fact i could not, my lectures are very diverse, my accomodation is very diverse, a lot of the places I hang out are very diverse.

3, Yes, if I have the money, I can rent most houses ( some people dont like students in their houses ), but so could anyone else, when i was living in a large block of flats last year, the place was chock full of people of all races, nearly all of them renting students or families.

4 people in england are generally polite to their neighbours, though i have been next to some real ****s before, places I have lived, what colour you are does not affect how you are treated, how much noise you make and how much rubbish you leave about does though.

5 yes, this can be said for anyone where I live, I have never witnessed racial harassment in all my years for someone going shopping

6 i can, then again white people make up over 90% of england's pop, so there is bound to be more of them on TV, thinking of for example, serious news presenters, i know 2 black guys, 4 indian people and about 15 odd white people, this seems a prety fair representation to me, if anyhting skewed towards minorities more.

7 well, england was prety much exlusivley english before the slave trade, so any history before then will be white centric, anything post then seems to include black people where they are relavent ( of course, few politicians and powerful people have been black until recently, so they are not talked about lot in history, mainly becuase they werent there or wernt interesting )

All your other points, for example being late for a meeting and it being put down to your race, sure I can, but so can anyone elese, who would draw conclusions like that froma  single data point? If they did it would surley be the fault of the person, and not some over arching system of control.

If people have the money, you can buy whatever you want, if people ahve the brains, you can go to whatever school you want, race does not come into these things, no matter how much people try to come up with excuses for their failings.You seem to ahve a really strongly motivitated position against the "white establishment" when as far as i can see, there is really no law or precedent against minorities. Sure there are racist people out there, but they are not all white people.

As to your point about how affirmitive action is bad, I'll tell you why, it's racist. If yop let people into a university on any grounds apart from acedemic ability, it is discriminatory in some way, everyone pays the same price, thats why it is fair.

Have you heard of an Affirmative action bake sale?
Quote from: "Godschild"SSY: You are fairly smart and to think I thought you were a few fries short of a happy meal.
Quote from: "Godschild"explain to them how and why you decided to be athiest and take the consequences that come along with it
Quote from: "Aedus"Unlike atheists, I'm not an angry prick

Kyuuketsuki

Quote from: "SSY"Your long list of questions, I'll illustrate my answers to a few.

What list?

Kyu
James C. Rocks: UK Tech Portal & Science, Just Science

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