The Problem of the Fat Man and the Trolley

Wechtlein Uns · December 10, 2008, 08:09:48 PM

MONSTERS!! All of you! :rant:

BadPoison · December 10, 2008, 08:27:50 PM

Quote from: "Wechtlein Uns"MONSTERS!! All of you!

Sophus · December 11, 2008, 03:05:30 AM

Quote from: "Wechtlein Uns"MONSTERS!! All of you!

curiosityandthecat · December 11, 2008, 03:25:05 AM

So, what would House do? :evil:

In my professional opinion (granted, my profession has nothing to do with this, but it sounds good), you kill the one to save the five. Period.

The Sprint Free and Clear Plan is neither free nor clear: discuss.

(Anybody get that reference?)

parllagio · December 11, 2008, 04:03:49 AM

I think I would take the choice of doing nothing because that is the choice that doesn't have me spending time in jail for murder. Only pushing the fat man is a crime. And who am I to decide who lives or dies in this scenario? Do all lives have equal value? What if the fat guy is just your average Joe and the five people tied to the train tracks are members of a drug dealing gang. All five have committed murder, robbery, and assault. This explains why they are tied to the train track in the first place. (A rival gang is taking over their territory)

Whitney · December 11, 2008, 04:12:30 AM

I know that in that situation I would not be able to push the fat man, even if I thought it made logical sense.

Btw, how the hell can a fat man be walking if he's fat enough to stop a trolley? :lol:

curiosityandthecat · December 11, 2008, 04:30:30 AM

Quote from: "parllagio"What if the fat guy is just your average Joe and the five people tied to the train tracks are members of a drug dealing gang. All five have committed murder, robbery, and assault. This explains why they are tied to the train track in the first place. (A rival gang is taking over their territory)

That's the beauty of this thought experiment: your decision is always affected by the position and/or relationship to you of those in peril.

parllagio · December 11, 2008, 05:12:47 AM

Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"Oh, come on. Haven't you ever seen the old silent films where the diabolic mad-man has tied the innocent woman to the train tracks? Well, imagine that the jerk-in-black (cause, he's always wearing black) is just really efficient and managed to tie five helpless damsels (sorry, girls; it's just for the sake of argument) to the tracks.

What then?

In that case I change my answer and push the fat man. Only because I am single and if I save the lives of 5 women odds are I can score with at least one of them.

curiosityandthecat · December 11, 2008, 05:58:56 AM

Quote from: "parllagio"In that case I change my answer and push the fat man. Only because I am single and if I save the lives of 5 women odds are I can score with at least one of them.

Okay, in that case, assume it's five men, no matter how attractive, will never be "into" you. Change your decision?

Martian · December 11, 2008, 06:14:18 AM

The one thing that I'd do is look around carefully to see if there was any way that I could be blamed for the situation, and try to avoid it as much as possible. Push someone in front of a trolly? I don't want to spend the rest of my life in prison for murder.

Tom62 · December 11, 2008, 06:25:19 AM

I five people tied on the tracks cannot stop a trolley then why should one fat man be able to stop it? I'm not sure that I'd be able to push such a heavy weight over the bridge. It is therefore more likely that the 5 people die and that the fat man beats me up.

parllagio · December 11, 2008, 07:09:18 AM

Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"Okay, in that case, assume it's five men, no matter how attractive, will never be "into" you. Change your decision?

Yes, in that case I change back to my original decision. These 5 men are obviously criminals and deserve to be tied to the tracks.

Quote from: "Martian"The one thing that I'd do is look around carefully to see if there was any way that I could be blamed for the situation, and try to avoid it as much as possible. Push someone in front of a trolly? I don't want to spend the rest of my life in prison for murder.

That was my original point, no matter how you try to justify it, in this situation if you push the fat man you are committing murder. And probably would be convicted of the same in front of a jury. You have no right to murder the fat man even if you could be saving lives.

They way I originally heard this question, and I will quickly paraphrase so please don't attack the logic, was in a social issues and ethics class. You and 5 friends are exploring a cave with only one entrance/exit. You enter the cave, explore and when leaving the largest of your friends goes through the entrance/exit first and gets stuck. Lucky for you, you always bring dynamite while exploring caves. You have two options, die with all 5 of your friends, or blow the hole where one of your friends is stuck and safely escape with your other 4 friends. No other options available, I know I know, doesn't make much sense but pick one. I am curious if this situation changes anyone's answer to the previous.

bowmore · December 11, 2008, 08:17:01 AM

Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"So, what would House do? :hail: House

Martian · December 11, 2008, 08:50:05 PM

Quote from: "parllagio"They way I originally heard this question, and I will quickly paraphrase so please don't attack the logic, was in a social issues and ethics class. You and 5 friends are exploring a cave with only one entrance/exit. You enter the cave, explore and when leaving the largest of your friends goes through the entrance/exit first and gets stuck. Lucky for you, you always bring dynamite while exploring caves. You have two options, die with all 5 of your friends, or blow the hole where one of your friends is stuck and safely escape with your other 4 friends. No other options available, I know I know, doesn't make much sense but pick one. I am curious if this situation changes anyone's answer to the previous.

Well, if it was 100% certain that there was no other way, then obviously the large guy is going to have to pop. It's either everyone or just him. Since I'm part of the "everyone" group, then I'm going to do what I have to in order to live. But this situation is slightly different, because you can die.

BadPoison · December 11, 2008, 10:45:05 PM

Quote from: "Martian"
Quote from: "parllagio"They way I originally heard this question, and I will quickly paraphrase so please don't attack the logic, was in a social issues and ethics class. You and 5 friends are exploring a cave with only one entrance/exit. You enter the cave, explore and when leaving the largest of your friends goes through the entrance/exit first and gets stuck. Lucky for you, you always bring dynamite while exploring caves. You have two options, die with all 5 of your friends, or blow the hole where one of your friends is stuck and safely escape with your other 4 friends. No other options available, I know I know, doesn't make much sense but pick one. I am curious if this situation changes anyone's answer to the previous.
Well, if it was 100% certain that there was no other way, then obviously the large guy is going to have to pop. It's either everyone or just him. Since I'm part of the "everyone" group, then I'm going to do what I have to in order to live. But this situation is slightly different, because you can die.

It's also different because the large friend is doomed either way.

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The Problem of the Fat Man and the Trolley