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The Problem of the Fat Man and the Trolley

Started by curiosityandthecat, December 09, 2008, 05:30:33 PM

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curiosityandthecat

This is one of my favorite thought  experiments. The problem goes thusly (though there are variations; my apologies to obese people who live near train tracks):

QuoteA trolley is hurtling down a track towards five people tied to the tracks. You are on a bridge under which it will pass, and you can stop the trolley by dropping a heavy weight in front of it. As it happens, there is a very fat man next to you - your only way to stop the trolley is to push him over the bridge and onto the track, killing him to save five. Should you proceed?

The original version of the problem involves a divergence of the track, powered by a switch. There are five people tied to one part of the track and one person tied to another part. If you do nothing, the train kills the five people. If you flip the switch, it moves the tracks and you kill the one. I like the fat man version better because the switch is much less personal.

So, what do you do?

(I have allowed re-voting if you wish to change your vote at any time.)
-Curio

Will

If this were a real situation I'd attempt to find an alternate solution, but I suspect that would be cheating. The question is about a moral equation.

Assuming that murdering the obese man is the only solution, I'd have to pass. It's not my right to sacrifice the obese man. I'd probably mention it to him, giving him the opportunity to sacrifice himself, but I'd not force him.
I want bad people to look forward to and celebrate the day I die, because if they don't, I'm not living up to my potential.

Wechtlein Uns

It is not right to drag others who have no business with the problem into it.
"What I mean when I use the term "god" represents nothing more than an interactionist view of the universe, a particularite view of time, and an ever expansive view of myself." -- Jose Luis Nunez.

Kyuuketsuki

In the end, assuming he (or they) means nothing to you personally, it's simple math ...  drop the fat man.

Kyu
James C. Rocks: UK Tech Portal & Science, Just Science

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BadPoison

#4
So, after reading the OP I discussed this with my coworker. She told me that she wouldn't pull the lever, or push the man as she did not have a responsibility to the five tied to the track. She rationalized, that because she didn't put those people there, she would not be at fault when they died - and if she had pulled the lever/pushed the fat man it would be her direct responsibililty for the single persons death.

I told her that by not acting, she would be condemning the five to die. Saving five lives justifies taking one.

So she asked me then if I knew anyone involved personally.
Me: "Would that matter?"
Her: "Yes, because emotion could take over your logic. If it was your best friend tied to the opposite track, would you still kill him in order to save five strangers?"
Me: "I think I would. I believe that every individual has an equal value to each other, regardless of their friendships, intelligence, race or beliefs."
Her: "So then emotion wouldn't change your mind at all? What if it is your wife, whom you love dearly"
Me: "..."

So perhaps I can see myself valuing certain people above others - even though I see it against my own convictions of right and wrong. If the choice was between the woman I love and five strangers - or fifty strangers - I would still probably choose her. And I really don't have a good argument as to why.

Is it logical then, to assume that for many of us in extreme situations would not act as we would personally find to be logical?

It seems to me for myself, and likely many others, our ethics would take a back seat to our irrational emotions. This is part of being human.
I think this is also why so many people get wrapped up in religion. We are emotional beings.

BadPoison

I changed my vote from "push the fat man" to "other"

Wechtlein Uns

But don't you think that no innocent should be murdered to keep others from being killed, especially if they have nothing to do with the problem? Imagine if the only way to stop the trolly would be to drop an infant on the tracks? I don't think any innocent should be forced to atone for other people's problems. Last I heard, Jesus did that. Scapegoat theory. And I don't think it's right.

Right?  :crazy:
"What I mean when I use the term "god" represents nothing more than an interactionist view of the universe, a particularite view of time, and an ever expansive view of myself." -- Jose Luis Nunez.

BadPoison

Quote from: "Wechtlein Uns"But don't you think that no innocent should be murdered to keep others from being killed, especially if they have nothing to do with the problem? Imagine if the only way to stop the trolly would be to drop an infant on the tracks? I don't think any innocent should be forced to atone for other people's problems. Last I heard, Jesus did that. Scapegoat theory. And I don't think it's right.

Right?  :crazy:

I see what you did there...

Sophus

The fat man has to go. Five lives are more valuable than one morbidly obese one. Although depending on how heavy he actually is I dunno if I could push him off.
‎"Christian doesn't necessarily just mean good. It just means better." - John Oliver

Squid

Why am I on a bridge with a fat man?  How the hell will one fat guy stop a whole train?  What if I push the fat guy and it doesn't stop the train?  Damn variables.

Anyhow, I understand it's a thought experiment in moral reasoning and ya just have to give an answer and then reflect on why.  My mind would change depending on who was involved and if I had any personal ties to them.  No personal ties? The fat man goes down.  Personal ties with the man such as a best friend?  The five are gonna perish.  It's all about the monkey sphere.

BadPoison

Quote from: "Sophus"The fat man has to go. Five lives are more valuable than one morbidly obese one. Although depending on how heavy he actually is I dunno if I could push him off.

Well you better start working out! This could really happen!

Sophus

Quote from: "BadPoison"
Quote from: "Sophus"The fat man has to go. Five lives are more valuable than one morbidly obese one. Although depending on how heavy he actually is I dunno if I could push him off.

Well you better start working out! This could really happen!
So true. I'll get right on that.
‎"Christian doesn't necessarily just mean good. It just means better." - John Oliver

Kyuuketsuki

Quote from: "Wechtlein Uns"But don't you think that no innocent should be murdered to keep others from being killed, especially if they have nothing to do with the problem? Imagine if the only way to stop the trolly would be to drop an infant on the tracks? I don't think any innocent should be forced to atone for other people's problems. Last I heard, Jesus did that. Scapegoat theory. And I don't think it's right.

IMO all are innocent therefore the 1 has no greater right to life than the 5 except in pure "save as many as possible" terms.

A similar situation has been raised more than once in science fiction stories where the commander of a base sacrificed half the base (random decision) to save the others) based on the idea that a supply rocket with essential oxygen would arrive in 2 weeks, the base had sufficient for just over a week but if half the people were dead then the remainder would survive. Sure I understand why such a person would be reviled (as I think would the person pushing the fat man off the bridge) but in once sense he/she is a hero because he/she has turned a losing situation into a win (sort of, slightly more complicated for various reasons).

Imagine if the world were about to end (asteroid or whatever), you have 1 shelter that can take 1000 people ... could you choose those who would survive? I think I could if I had to ... a small number of older people with useful skills (teachers, scientists, engineers etc.), everyone relatively young.

I believe it is a misnomer to say we are all equal because in a survival situation we are not (though Cat's situation does portray us as equal) and people, despite the principle, do evaluate (judge) each other and value themselves against them in various ways.

BTW ... I thought of another solution ... throw yourself off! Very human.

Kyu
James C. Rocks: UK Tech Portal & Science, Just Science

[size=150]Not Long For This Forum [/size]

karadan

I'd push the fat man because he was obviously thinking about jumping anyway.
QuoteI find it mistifying that in this age of information, some people still deny the scientific history of our existence.

bowmore

Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"
QuoteA trolley is hurtling down a track towards five people tied to the tracks. You are on a bridge under which it will pass, and you can stop the trolley by dropping a heavy weight in front of it. As it happens, there is a very fat man next to you - your only way to stop the trolley is to push him over the bridge and onto the track, killing him to save five. Should you proceed?

I've thought about this longer than the time left to actually do something. By now the five are dead.
The fat man and I have decided to have a drink in a bar.  :beer:
"Rational arguments don’t usually work on religious people. Otherwise there would be no religious people."

House M.D.