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What atheists REALLY think of the ethics of warfare

Started by Zarathustra, December 03, 2008, 11:44:14 AM

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Zarathustra

Hi all.

This was a thought provoker for me:
Quote from: "ElvisPriestly"If there are no atheists in foxholes, it's probably because they were smart enough not to go there in the first place.
Because I have a notion that he is right.

All things being equal, the argument against atheists (or "atheism" as they prefer to put it) that tire me the most, is the morality argument. Especially that concerning 'atheist' wars. It find it so assumptive and basically a load of crap!

Let's find out whether it is true.
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Note that the first vote cast on "I think the military is a necessity, and should also be used to protect foreign interests" was cast by a theist, Messenger. I would prefer if only atheists or agnostics contributed, please.
"Man does not draw his laws from nature, but impose them upon nature" - Kant
[size=85]English is not my native language, so please don't attack my grammar, attack my message instead[/size]

DennisK

I'm torn.  I wish there were no need for military action of any kind, but it is necessary in some cases.  The problem with 'necessity' is that the public is usually spun or distracted in some way and we rarely know the real reason(s) for conflict.  Although propaganda is not what it used to be, it still is effective.

I have great respect for the military in the US, but not the stimulus to put them in action.  Through hidden agendas, the military gets associated with wrongful conflicts.  Whether or not the military's image gets tarnished, if they put their lives on the line for our country and later realize it was motivated by hidden agendas, it can't be very gratifying.
"If you take a highly intelligent person and give them the best possible, elite education, then you will most likely wind up with an academic who is completely impervious to reality." -Halton Arp

Kyuuketsuki

Politically I consider myself to be a centre left hawk and in essence there are three things I believe in the rule of law, education and health.

Briefly on education I believe that from it (a good education) all good things come and on health yes I believe in state health service and personally believe that the private health should be taxed out of existence (or just nuked, don't care).

It's a twist on the usual use of the word but I consider myself a pacifist in that I believe that the armed forces are for defence and the reasonable enforcement of national interests (and what is reasonable is, of course, debatable). But here's the thing pacifism, in its non-violent or non-forced form, is a really, really stupid idea quite simply because we are a violent race and no one can say with any surety that it will work ... if we, as a nation (and I'm talking about the UK here), downed our arms and refused to fight how long would it be before someone looks at our land and says, "I think I'll have me some of that!" Who would stop them? If the pacifists take up arms then they are not pacifists, if they rely on someone else to protect them they are hypocrites.

Yet I firmly believe in the right to peacefully protest, I believe in the right to burn flags, the right to petition government and so on. I believe that pacifists have the right to claim they are pacifists but it's important they understand that their right to do so is guaranteed by law, a legal system enforced by the courts, the police, the government mandated by the people and ultimately backed by a nation's armed forces.

I am a pacifist (of sorts); I believe that peace needs to be enforced and although armies are sometimes charged with atrocities I have little but respect for the soldiers themselves and any ire I have with my country's action overseas is reserved for the politicians and not the fighting man or woman.

Kyu
James C. Rocks: UK Tech Portal & Science, Just Science

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curiosityandthecat

I defer to Mr. Carlin.

QuoteI like to talk a little bit about the war in Persian Gulf, big doings in the Persian Gulf. You know my favorite part of that war? It was the first war we had that was on every channel, even cable. And the war got good ratings too. Well, we like war! We are war like people. We like war because we're good at it.

You know why we're good at it, because we get a lot of practice. This country is only 200 years old and we've already have had ten major wars. We average a major war every 20 years in this country, so we're good at it. And it's a good thing we are; we're not good at anything else any more, ha? Can't build a descent car, can't make a TV center or a VCR worth a fuck. Don't have steel industry left, can't educate our young people, can't get good health care for our old people, but we can bomb the shit out of your country. HAH? WE CAN BOMB THE SHIT OUT OF YOUR COUNTRY ALL RIGHT!!

ESPECIALLY IF YOUR COUNTRY IS FULL OF BROWN PEOPLE.

Oh we like that, that's our hobby. That's our new job in the world, bombing brown people. Iraq, Panama, Granada, Libya, Afghanistan, you got some brown people in your country, tell them to watch the fuck out or we'll god damn bomb them.

Well when is the last white people you remember we bombed? You remember the last white, do you remember ANY white people we've ever bombed?

The Germans were the last ones and that's because they were trying to cut in our action. They wanted to dominate the world, bull shit, that's our job, that's our fucking job.

Now we only bomb brown people. Not because they're cutting on our action, just because they're brown. You may have noticed, I don't feel about that war the way we were told, the way we were supposed to feel about that war, the way we were ordered, instructed by the United States government. You see, I tell ya, my mind doesn't work that way, I got this real moron thing I do, it's called thinking. And I'm not a very good American, because I like to form my own opinions. I don't just roll over when I'm told to. The sad thing is most Americans just roll over on command, not me. I have certain rules I live by. First rule is I don't believe anything government tells me, nothing, zero. Nope! And I don't take very seriously media the press in this country, who in the case of Persian Gulf War were nothing more than unpaid employees of the Department of Defense, and who most of the time, MOST OF THE TIME, functions as an unofficial public relations agency for United States Government.

So, I don't listen to them, I don't really believe in my country, and I got to tell you folks I don't get all chocked up about yellow ribbons and American flags. I consider them symbols and I leave symbols to the symbol-minded.

Me, I look at war a little bit differently. To me war is a lot of prick waving, ok?

Simple thing that's all it is war is a whole lot of men standing out in a field waving their pricks at one another. Men are insecure about the size of their dicks so they have to kill one another over the idea. That's what all that ass whole, jock bull shit is all about.

That's what all that adolescent, macho, male posturing and strutting in bars and locker rooms is all about. It's called dick fear. Men are terrified that their dicks are inadequate and so they have to compete with one another to feel better about themselves. So, since war is the ultimate competition, basically men are killing each other in order to improve their self esteem.

You don't have to be a historian or a political scientists to see bigger-dick foreign policy at work.

It sounds like this, ìwhat they have bigger dicks? Bomb themî. And of course, the bombs, rockets, and the bullets are all shaped like dicks. It's a subconscious need to project the penis into other people's affairs.

IT'S CALLED, "FUCKING WITH PEOPLE"!!

So, as far as I'm concerned that whole thing in Persian Golf was nothing more than a big prick waving dick fight. In this particular case, Saddam Hussein had questioned the size of George Bush's dick. And George has been called a wimp for so long, wimp rhymes with limpÖ George has been called a wimp for so long that he has to act down his manhood fantasies, by sending other people's children to die.

Even the name Bush is related to genitals without being genitals without being the genitals. A Bush is a sort of passive, secondary sex characteristics.

Now, if his name was George Boner... well, he might have felt better about himself and he wouldn't have had any problems over there anyway.

This whole country has a manhood problem, a big manhood problem in USA. You can tell by the language we use. Language always gives you away. What did we do wrong in Vietnam? We pulled out!

Ahh, not a very manly thing to do, is it? When you're fucking people, you got to stay in there and fuck them good, fuck them all the way, fuck them to death.

Stay in there and keep fucking them until they're all dead.

We left a few women and children in Vietnam and we haven't felt good about ourselves since. That's why in Persian Gulf, George Bush said, "this will not be another Vietnam". He actually used these words he said, "This time we're going all the way". Imagine an American president using the sexual slang of a thirteen year old to explain his foreign policy!

If you want to know what happened in Persian Gulf just remember the names of two men who were running that war, Dick Chaney and Colin Powel. Somebody got fucked in the...

A military will be necessary for as long as we are emotional beings. Any militaristic offensive can be traced back to either greed or fear.
-Curio

Kyuuketsuki

Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"IA military will be necessary for as long as we are emotional beings. Any militaristic offensive can be traced back to either greed or fear.

Emotions are apparently regarded as essential for decision making so remove our emotions and you take away our ability to make decisions, to be intelligent creatures so my guess is that' we'll need the military for awhile yet.

Kyu
James C. Rocks: UK Tech Portal & Science, Just Science

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rlrose328

I'm a pacifist and in a perfect world, there would be no war, no tension, and no conflict, so military wouldn't be necessary.

But after I chose that option, I wanted to change it.  Because this ISN'T a perfect world and the Star Trek universe could never come true, no matter how much we might want it.  And, quite frankly, life would be pretty boring.

I would like it to be used defensively only... but let's be honest.  Sometimes, we are needed elsewhere to protect someone else's freedoms when they are being stomped on by a global bully.  Is it our responsibility?  No, not necessarily.  But sometimes, it's a necessary evil.

So where do I stand?  Heck if I know.  (and those of you who know me probably aren't surprised at all that I'm on the fence... LOL!)
**Kerri**
The Rogue Atheist Scrapbooker
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Wechtlein Uns

"What I mean when I use the term "god" represents nothing more than an interactionist view of the universe, a particularite view of time, and an ever expansive view of myself." -- Jose Luis Nunez.

Sophus

I believe it is an absolute shame humans are so savage sometimes that we have to resort to killing people. But, alas, it is sometimes necessary to the protection of other innocent lives.
‎"Christian doesn't necessarily just mean good. It just means better." - John Oliver

Tanker

Warfare is a sad, but constant, part of the human condition. Never has there been a point of total world peace. If you went back 3 million years to the African savanna you would find proto-human tribes fighting for land, water, food, mates, whatever. As long as people exist we will require millitaries. I will admit being a veteran probably gives me a different prospective of militaries, I'm sure other veterans would agree, but I don't think that changes the truth of my statements in the least.
"I'd rather die the go to heaven" - William Murderface Murderface  Murderface-

I've been in fox holes, I'm still an atheist -Me-

God is a cake, and we all know what the cake is.

(my spelling, grammer, and punctuation suck, I know, but regardless of how much I read they haven't improved much since grade school. It's actually a bit of a family joke.

Chemistry08

Tanker, thank you for your service and to all other who have served and protected the USA.

Military is a necessary evil. Unfortunately, most wars are intertwined with religion which saddens me greatly. This topic brings to mind one of my favorite songs by the late, great John Lennon, "Imagine".

Will

War and military are self-sustaining systems of violence, greed, and hatred. There is absolutely no use for violence against other human beings.
I want bad people to look forward to and celebrate the day I die, because if they don't, I'm not living up to my potential.

Tom62

Just a stupid question. When was the last time that the USA fought a war to protect its own people?  As far as I can remember that was when the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor, but even then the US citizens were pretty safe on the mainland. Anyway the reasons to start a war yourself are never justified. When you are under attack you are allowed to protect yourself, but that doesn't give you any rights to mass murder innocent civilians (like the bombing of Dresden in 1945).  Funny that with all the modern high precision weapon technologies in place we seem to kill more civilians than ever before. Nowadays 90% of all casualties in modern warfare are innocent bystanders, who have nothing to do with the "evil" acts of their leaders.I find it therefore disgusting that especially the USA didn't sign the treaties to ban landmines and cluster bombs. BTW when is a leader of a country evil enough to justify a war against him?  As far as I can see only when he is weak enough and his country possesses a lot of oil for us to grab. More evil dictators than Saddam Hussein are still in power today (like Mugabe in Zimbabwe) and we even support dictators like Alyaksandr Lukashenka in Belarus as well as the Israelian Apartheid regime. What is so moral about that?  Whenever there are some real atrocities going on in the world, we just keep our eyes shut and do nothing.

Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent - Isaac Asimov
The universe never did make sense; I suspect it was built on government contract.
Robert A. Heinlein

Zarathustra

Quote from: "Tanker"Warfare is a sad, but constant, part of the human condition.  As long as people exist we will require millitaries.
I don't agree with the second statement at all!
I think this is like saying "religion is a sad, but constant, part of the human condition.  As long as people exist we will require religion."
It is assumptive. Just because we behave that way, and it is a huge part of tradition, does not mean it is something we require. Personally I am with Plato on this one: As long as we keep "solving" our conflicts that way, and most importantly entertain our children with violent stories, we will continue doing so. (Yes he actually said that with children and violence 2500 years ago!) We simply have such a hard time thinking out of the box.
That wars does not solve any problems, is historically evident. Just look at the area surrounding Jerusalem.

QuoteI will admit being a veteran probably gives me a different prospective of militaries, I'm sure other veterans would agree, but I don't think that changes the truth of my statements in the least.
I think it does. I have 2 friends in the army (not veterans yet, but currently officers in the danish army). I have discussed these issues with them numerous times: Any army spends a lot of effort on teaching their soldiers to think in a certain manner. (That violence is a necessity, and that you can be morally justified in killing people, to name a few.) Naturally these teachings make it harder to imagine a world without that, just as very religious people can't imagine a world without "god".

Anyway did any of you notice, that so far Titans "fact of common knowledge" haven't received one vote?  ;) (yes, I am thinking of the last option.)
"Man does not draw his laws from nature, but impose them upon nature" - Kant
[size=85]English is not my native language, so please don't attack my grammar, attack my message instead[/size]

Kyuuketsuki

Quote from: "Willravel"War and military are self-sustaining systems of violence, greed, and hatred. There is absolutely no use for violence against other human beings.

Yet curiously sheer naked violence has resolved more issues in our history than any other thing.

Kyu
James C. Rocks: UK Tech Portal & Science, Just Science

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Kyuuketsuki

Quote from: "Tanker"Warfare is a sad, but constant, part of the human condition. Never has there been a point of total world peace. If you went back 3 million years to the African savanna you would find proto-human tribes fighting for land, water, food, mates, whatever. As long as people exist we will require millitaries. I will admit being a veteran probably gives me a different prospective of militaries, I'm sure other veterans would agree, but I don't think that changes the truth of my statements in the least.

I'm not a vet (I actually quit the army) but I agree with you 100%, I know you're American but I will always be in awe of those who can put their life in between their family, friends & country and harm.

Kyu
James C. Rocks: UK Tech Portal & Science, Just Science

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