Where does your morals/ethics come from?

[DragonofHeaven]

Though it seems Social Contracts has been already mentioned you could go farther back to the basics of why humans do as we do. The ultimate reason is for survival of the species. If to use your first example you get mad at me and kill me for no other reason then a rational person can see that the mortality rate for the human race would be very high. (especially in LA during rush hour) We as humans create laws in order to induce social order. By creating social order we do two things: first we make sure that you cannot kill me or any one else, without knowing that there will be some sort of retribution. The second is that we make sure you cannot hurt people without just cause.(Just cause is another conversation) Thus we have protected you me and every one else from harm that may be induced from a  persons pent up rage. Then there is another reason that is probably more important. I will demonstrate this by switching  that scenario around. If I am angry enough to want to see you die, then I need to have a good reason to stop the first assault against my reason. Fear of retribution fits the bill, but there needs to be another reason or eventually the fear may not be enough. This is when reason comes into play and tells me that if I kill you then some one will be hurt by that. You may have children, you may have a wife. In short some one some where will feel saddened at your loss. That is probably the best reason not to kill you on so slight a temptation.

[Asmodean]

If to use your first example you get mad at me and kill me for no other reason then a rational person can see that the mortality rate for the human race would be very high. (especially in LA during rush hour)

Uh... Doesn't LA already have that problem?  

[afreethinker30]

Yes we are just animals in a sense.But how many animals do you see finding cures for dieases,or going to the moon.Yes you could kill an atheist and not care.But the question should be asked about theists who kill just to have power.Albert Fish was a god fearing man,Hitler made statements about being Christian,President Bush christian.My morals came from my parents and theirs came from their parents.And what I see in the world around me.Look at how the world is today,most of the country I live in has no morals what so ever and I live in a bible loving country.Divorce is well commonplace,guns everywhere,children going without food or shelter,hate crimes well I could go on but there is no need to.How many Atheist do you hear about killing a theist over their religious belief?If you have to find your morals in a book then you are a sad case.

[Asmodean]

Yes we are just animals in a sense.But how many animals do you see finding cures for dieases

Some do seem to use herbs.

[afreethinker30]

Yes we are just animals in a sense.But how many animals do you see finding cures for dieases

Some do seem to use herbs.

Shut up I'm making a point  

[tdh26]

How many Atheist do you hear about killing a theist over their religious belief?

Ever hear of communist China, The USSR, Nazi Germany? All pretty much atheist! That's just the short list.

[Asmodean]

How many Atheist do you hear about killing a theist over their religious belief?

Ever hear of communist China, The USSR, Nazi Germany? All pretty much atheist! That's just the short list.

Ever heard of avoiding answering the questions?

But ok, I'll play along. How many religious people did Soviet regime kill because of their religion? How many did the Chinese regime kill? Nazi Germany has no real place on the atheist list though.

Now I don't want the total body count of any of those regimes, thank you very much. Just how many religious people were killed because of their religion.

[tdh26]

But ok, I'll play along. How many religious people did Soviet regime kill because of their religion? How many did the Chinese regime kill? Nazi Germany has no real place on the atheist list though.

Nazi Germany absolutely on the list. They fully believed in Darwins theory 'survival of the fittest'. (I group this as a atheistic belief although you may call it science. Part of it may be science but part of it is a religion on its own.)The religious had no place in their utopia. (6 million Jews, 4 Million Catholics and other denominations, the rest might not have been any religious group) The USSR - the Jews were not treated any better there, nor were Christians. Exact numbers cannot be had because they were such a closed government, but it was in the 100's of thousands. Pretty common history if you really want to look. The Viet-Cong targeted Christians with a vengeance. Again, atheists.

[Jolly Sapper]

How many Atheist do you hear about killing a theist over their religious belief?

Ever hear of communist China, The USSR, Nazi Germany? All pretty much atheist! That's just the short list.

Don't fall into the fallacy of mistaking correlation with causation.  It would like saying the Chinese government as it is now (being far less hard line communistic that it was way back in the day) is persecuting the Tibetans ONLY because of the their religious beliefs instead of the reason being because the Tibetans not too pleased at having a foreign power invade, occupy, control, and treat the native inhabitants as second class (or worse citizens), are resisting the occupation.  I don't think there is much proof that the Chinese government is out busting Tibetan heads only because of their religious beliefs.  I'm more inclined to believe there is a more strategic/economic explanation.

But ok, I'll play along. How many religious people did Soviet regime kill because of their religion? How many did the Chinese regime kill? Nazi Germany has no real place on the atheist list though.

Nazi Germany absolutely on the list. They fully believed in Darwins theory 'survival of the fittest'. (I group this as a atheistic belief although you may call it science. Part of it may be science but part of it is a religion on its own.)The religious had no place in their utopia. (6 million Jews, 4 Million Catholics and other denominations, the rest might not have been any religious group) The USSR - the Jews were not treated any better there, nor were Christians. Exact numbers cannot be had because they were such a closed government, but it was in the 100's of thousands. Pretty common history if you really want to look. The Viet-Cong targeted Christians with a vengeance. Again, atheists.

When it comes to Nazi Germany, if Hitler's speeches and writing are to be believed then he was a Protestant. Is there any way to prove that the ONLY reason these people were targeted was because of religious belief?  The Jews have been the whipping post of the world for a few thousand years (easy to turn them into a target for disgruntled brown shirts), they also got stereotyped into jobs where they worked with money and political power(bankers, real estate, jewelry, politics) making it much easier to blame all of the problems (unemployment, poverty, etc) that Germany had after WWI on them.  (The same can be said about the Roma (gypsies), they've been demonized for ages even though they haven't really had any real political/economic power.)

This goes right back to correlation vs causation.  Hitler may have killed off a bunch of people who were Catholic, but was it solely because they were Catholics or was there some other explantion?  Where large groups of Catholics involved in resistance movements against Hitler and the Nazi party, did they own land or resources that could be stolen by the Nazi's?
 
How may black people did were sent to the gas chambers and concentration camps?  Not many you say? Then I guess he wasn't a racist right?  But the whole Aryan "master race" thing goes against this?  If it turns out that the absolute population of black people in Germany at that time were pretty small, the numbers for those that were murdered wouldn't be anywhere near as large as the numbers for Jews and Catholics and Roman.  Giving the appearance, by one form of numerical statistics, that Hitler wasn't as much of a racist as he sounded.

[Asmodean]

First things first: you are avoiding the question. Give me a straight answer or none at all.

Nazi Germany absolutely on the list. They fully believed in Darwins theory 'survival of the fittest'. (I group this as a atheistic belief although you may call it science. Part of it may be science but part of it is a religion on its own.)

Nazism is not based on nor imbued with the idea of atheism. Hitler himself was a self-proclaimed Christian.

The religious had no place in their utopia. (6 million Jews, 4 Million Catholics and other denominations, the rest might not have been any religious group)

Was religion the cause of the holocaust? Or of the Second world War? It was not.

The USSR - the Jews were not treated any better there, nor were Christians.

The soviet regime outlawed organised religion. They did not go around slaughtering people for following a deity, they just frowned upon them and sent some to Siberia as Anti-Sovietists.

Exact numbers cannot be had because they were such a closed government,

That's an argument so weak, that I can't even see why you bothered to type it out.

but it was in the 100's of thousands.

Millions died in exile or labour camps in early Soviet. The vast majority were the "elite" and those denounced for anti-Soviet views. It had little to nothing to do with them being possibly religious. The soviet regime killed atheist and believer with equal ease.

Pretty common history if you really want to look.

Common history, simplified to the point of distorting the facts. Maybe you should try doing some research into what you can't find in a 4th grade history book.

The Viet-Cong targeted Christians with a vengeance. Again, atheists.

Of course they did. They were fighting an occupying force. Defending their country. (And their ideology and way of life, while they were at it). The religion of French and later US soldiers had nothing to do with it.

Now I have two words for you: Christian crusades.

That said, Jolly Sapper made a very good post before me. (He has a cool avatar too) So I think between the two of us, we covered and re-covered most of the holes in your carpet.

[Will]

Ever hear of communist China

Strictly speaking, China is not currently communist. It's actually a combination of fascist oligarchy and corporatiocracy. The term "communist" is simply a part of the name of the part currently in power. Regardless, it is not an atheist country. Buddhism and Taoism are widely practiced, even by the high ranking governmental officials who are guilty of such heinous crimes against their own people. China also has many Muslims and Christians. Only 10-14% of China claims to be atheist.

The USSR

When Vladimir Lenin took power in the USSR, he claimed to be a champion of atheism and communism. He gave up on each of these almost immediately, instead making himself a near godlike figure, erecting massive statues of himself. Stalin did much the same thing.

Nazi Germany

Adolph Hitler was likely a protestant, though he was raised catholic. Hitler was strongly opposed to state atheism.

All pretty much atheist! That's just the short list.

It seems you have quite a bit of homework to do.

[Loffler]

But ok, I'll play along. How many religious people did Soviet regime kill because of their religion? How many did the Chinese regime kill? Nazi Germany has no real place on the atheist list though.

Nazi Germany absolutely on the list. They fully believed in Darwins theory 'survival of the fittest'.

This is neither religion nor science. You might as well say that producers of biological weapons "fully believe in Pasteur's germ theory."

Furthermore, "survival of the fittest" is not Darwin's phrase, it is Herbert Spencer's. It is also not an accurate description of the machinations of evolution, which is described by biologists not as survival of the fittest but as "natural selection." It is closer to the truth to describe actual evolution as "proliferation of the adaptable."

The religious had no place in their utopia.

Incorrect.

(6 million Jews, 4 Million Catholics and other denominations,

The Catholics who were persecuted were treated that way for opposing the Nazi party, not by virtue of being Catholics. The Jews who were persecuted were treated that way for their ethnicity, not for their religion -- non-practicing, atheist, and even Christian Jews were in just as much danger as practicing Jews.

[curiosityandthecat]

[Whitney]

How many Atheist do you hear about killing a theist over their religious belief?

Ever hear of communist China, The USSR, Nazi Germany? All pretty much atheist! That's just the short list.

Regardless of Hitler's religious position (which is debatable and imo he was at least a theist if not Christian), Nazi propaganda was highly based on Christianity and they had the pope's backing.

Also...communism is not atheism nor is communism necessarily bad (in theory; in practice it never works due to people being power hungry).   There is no such thing as an atheist dogma or bible for people to do bad things in the name of.  Anything an atheist may do wrong is the result of some other philosophical stance.    Plus, considering how may wars have be waged in the name of religion; those which you can even remotely attribute to atheist leaders are a very small percentage.

Btw, this thread is moving to the religion section.

[mrwynd]

see what we've done? We had a perfectly good philosophical discussion and we had to bring religion into it