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Where does your morals/ethics come from?

Started by tdh26, July 13, 2008, 06:05:34 PM

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tdh26

I’ve had a few atheistic friends over the years, although I could never grasp their reasoning. (I’ll let you label me an idiot up front just to save you time) A question I’ve always had is, if I were an atheist, and we were having a discussion and you pissed me off enough to kill you, and I did, why would that be wrong? Actually, the scenario doesn’t really matter. If I kill you for any reason, what’s the problem?
You may have moral reasons, although I don’t know why. The only difference between humans and the animal kingdom is we have an intelligence they don’t. So what? If you say that intelligence gives us a moral reasoning or some sort, Who cares. That would be your opinion, not mine. If I get by with it and don’t get caught, I’m scot-free, right? If you say in killing you I may have taken you away from family and friends who love you. Again, so what? Why would I care?

I admit, to me an atheist would be someone who believes in evolution or something other than a creator. We are just random chance little better than the animal kingdom, or no better. Doesn’t that mean we can just makeup our own rules? Do what ever we want as long as we can get by with it and not get caught by our own collective man made rules? What would limit us? Civility and laws are just a collective thought (rule) that maybe I in particular may not agree with. What would stop me from killing you? And why would that be bad?

I’m just curious what would be your reasoning from an atheistic point of view. I haven’t received a “reasonable” answer so far.

Pricia

I think the difference between theists and atheists is that we don't need a book to tell us what's right and what's wrong. Makes you wonder who the better persons are?

tdh26

Pricia, That's not even close to being an answer to my question.

Asmodean

Quote from: "tdh26"I’ve had a few atheistic friends over the years, although I could never grasp their reasoning. (I’ll let you label me an idiot up front just to save you time)
I'll label you an idiot if you prove to be one.

Quote from: "tdh26"A question I’ve always had is, if I were an atheist, and we were having a discussion and you pissed me off enough to kill you, and I did, why would that be wrong?
It would be a breach of social contract.

Quote from: "tdh26"Actually, the scenario doesn’t really matter. If I kill you for any reason, what’s the problem?
It would still be a breach of social contract.

Quote from: "tdh26"You may have moral reasons, although I don’t know why. The only difference between humans and the animal kingdom is we have an intelligence they don’t.
Ok... Sorry, but ou are an idiot.

Quote from: "tdh26"So what? If you say that intelligence gives us a moral reasoning or some sort, Who cares.
My morals are derived from Social Contract. So are yours, only they have been written down in a book and conveniently twisted to suit someone's perverted vision of right and wrong.

Quote from: "tdh26"That would be your opinion, not mine. If I get by with it and don’t get caught, I’m scot-free, right? If you say in killing you I may have taken you away from family and friends who love you. Again, so what? Why would I care?
You shouldn't. But don't complain when someone comes and cuts your arms and legs off for killing me. I believe even your book states somewhere that you should not do unto others what you don't want them to do unto you..? That is a part of social contract. (you see the theme emerging here?)

Quote from: "tdh26"I admit, to me an atheist would be someone who believes in evolution or something other than a creator. We are just random chance little better than the animal kingdom, or no better.
We are a part of the animal kingdom. How can a fingernail be better than the rest of the body?

Quote from: "tdh26"Doesn’t that mean we can just makeup our own rules? Do what ever we want as long as we can get by with it and not get caught by our own collective man made rules?
This is an anarchist idea. It has nothing to do with atheism. Again, Social Contract.

Quote from: "tdh26"What would limit us?
...You can probably guess my answer. If not, Social Contract.

Quote from: "tdh26"Civility and laws are just a collective thought (rule) that maybe I in particular may not agree with. What would stop me from killing you? And why would that be bad?
Social Contract. If you attempted to kill me, I would attempt to kill you to prevent it. Why would it be "bad"? Using the broadest definition of the word "bad", it would be because you'd be risking your own life and more in attempt to take someone else's.

Quote from: "tdh26"I’m just curious what would be your reasoning from an atheistic point of view. I haven’t received a “reasonable” answer so far.
It all boils down to "I will not try to harm you if you don't try to harm me and I will try to aid you if you try to aid me".
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.

pjkeeley

Quote from: "tdh26"If I kill you for any reason, what’s the problem?
If you really need a reason, the most obvious one is the threat of punishment. The reason most people don't kill is a combination of avoiding the wrath of others, as well as empathy. These are ingrained in us beacuse of the culture in which we are raised. Note that there are many civilizations, including our own, that view killing in certain contexts as being morally defensible. I suspect there is also an evolutionary reason, in that our aversion to killing our own species might be instinctual.

Quote from: "tdh26"Doesn’t that mean we can just makeup our own rules? Do what ever we want as long as we can get by with it and not get caught by our own collective man made rules?
Yes, I suppose it does. Does that worry you?

Quote from: "tdh26"What would limit us?
The fact that pretty much everyone wants to live, and wants at least certain minimal freedoms, compels us to form some sort of social structure in which there is, at the very least, a disincentive where wantonly murdering others is concerned. Apart from that, pretty much everything is open to debate. Isn't that grand? I think it is. It's part of what makes humanity such a fascinating and worthwhile enterprise.

Quote from: "tdh26"Civility and laws are just a collective thought (rule) that maybe I in particular may not agree with.
Indeed.

Quote from: "tdh26"What would stop me from killing you?
The law and those entrusted to enforce it. And your individual conscience of course.

Quote from: "tdh26"I haven’t received a “reasonable” answer so far.
You mean you haven't received an answer you agree with yet. What would be a reasonable answer to you?

mrwynd

ethics and morality are social memes that have in many ways, in the past, been helped along through various religions. Nowadays we only practice some of those ethics displayed in the bible. In fact, in recent history our ethics and morality have continued to evolve despite religious condemnation. Slavery is championed in the bible, by Jesus himself, but we no longer practice it. Not only do we no longer practice it, the thought is offensive. The point is, religion latches onto ethics and morality to drive it's social power. Many times this has been good for society, and others it has been horrific.

Jolly Sapper

Where you take your morality/ethics from is irrelevant.  So long as you can interact in your society then does it really matter?

Like Asmodean keeps saying, its all about the "social contract" and how much faith you put in the ability for one human being to trust that another human being won't turn around and stab him/her in the back.  Its the constant struggle between individual liberty (the physical ability to do something or get what you want) and freedom (which requires everybody to give up some of those "liberties" to keep from having everybody living in an overly paranoid state of constant "survival of the fittest" mode.)  

It can't be proven that the King James version of the Bible is where the very first time that the ideas of "don't kill other people for no reason" and "don't take other people's stuff" came about.  It can be proven that other people who've never seen a Christian or heard of the KJvB have come up with the same ideas of what is right and wrong.

MY, morals/ethics come from my experiences in the world.  The things I've seen, the things I've done, the mistakes I've made and how I feel about them.  Some of my moral/ethical philosophy is dictated by the society that I live in (following the laws and regulations set by those in political or bureaucratic authority over me) which makes things nice and easy.  Some of my moral/ethical philosophy comes from what just feels right (which is hard 'cause you have to figure things out for yourself), ex. I don't steal when I don't have to regardless of whether I'd get caught because it doesn't feel right.  I can think what it would be like to have something of mine taken and I don't think I should make somebody else feel that way unless I have a really good reason to do so (my morality vs survival imperative).  The rest of my moral/ethical philosophy is stolen from books.  You can find all sorts of books on morality and ethics, with authors defending or attacking one philosophy or another.  Its not a cheap and easy answer but it gives you the opportunity to critically think about not just "what" might be considered the right/wrong action but also "why" its the right/wrong thing.

I personally find absolutely nothing wrong with using the a religious text as a source for morality or ethics, so long as you remember than you hold within yourself the liberty to choose which parts of that text to take your morality from and which parts of the text to ignore.  I'm down with the thou shalt not kill, steal, and covet some other dude's ass, but I don't think it is moral to own slaves, nor do I think that eating shrimp or sitting next to some guy who may be uncircumcised as issues of a moral nature that require a law to dictate whether the acts are moral/immoral.

tdh26

#7
QuoteAsmodean wrote: My morals are derived from Social Contract. So are yours, only they have been written down in a book and conveniently twisted to suit someone's perverted vision of right and wrong.

Social Contract? What an arbitrary term. And who makes-up this contract? Can I just make-up one and call it “My binding civil rules”? (I may not agree to yours!)

Again; If I get by with it and don’t get caught, I’m scot-free (guilt-free)

How do you feel about what Hitler did in Germany? That was just their Social Contract they put together.

QuoteAsmodean wrote: We are a part of the animal kingdom. How can a fingernail be better than the rest of the body?

I think it’s cute you associate yourself as no better then a reptile or insect.

QuoteAsmodean wrote: It all boils down to "I will not try to harm you if you don't try to harm me and I will try to aid you if you try to aid me".

You have no binding reason for anyone to go along with this except through force or coercion, so again, if I get by with it and don’t get caught, I’m scot-free (guilt-free).
Added note to this is, the other comments so far have nothing referenced to a “Social Contract” You all need to get together and agree to something.
Quotepjkeeley wrote: If you really need a reason, the most obvious one is the threat of punishment. The reason most people don't kill is a combination of avoiding the wrath of others, as well as empathy. These are ingrained in us beacuse of the culture in which we are raised. Note that there are many civilizations, including our own, that view killing in certain contexts as being morally defensible. I suspect there is also an evolutionary reason, in that our aversion to killing our own species might be instinctual.

By this reasoning, what Hitler did in Germany, if he had not invaded other countries, did nothing wrong. He had no treat of punishment once he was in power and he defined the culture by controlling the media. (Jews are scum)
(That’s not my belief) Empathy is a term that’s easily thrown around but has little meaning when used as a reason not to do something.

Quotepjkeeley wrote: You mean you haven't received an answer you agree with yet. What would be a reasonable answer to you?

A reasonable answer would be that most of you (atheists) would have a similar foundational belief that can be applied to life as a whole that’s not completely subjective to each situation in life.

I’ve noticed it’s very hard not to become overly defensive in this dialogue. Forgive me if I come across that way. That’s not my intention. I’d rather have a verbal dialogue and not hide behind this forum. Anyway, I’m sure I’m not going to change anyone’s mind.

mrwynd

So are you saying Christians do good things to others simply because they're afraid of retribution from god? When you do something ethical, is it because you fear going to hell? Nobody thinks this way on a day to day basis, do they?

Asmodean

Quote from: "tdh26"Social Contract? What an arbitrary term. And who makes-up this contract? Can I just make-up one and call it “My binding civil rules”? (I may not agree to yours!)
Use the quotes. It's not that hard.

No-one and everyone makes SC. And if you do not agree to follow it when dealing with me, you can damn well expect me not to follow it when dealing with you. OR you can expect some sort of negative response from the society, which is generally interested in maintaining the SC.

Quote from: "tdh26"Again; If I get by with it and don’t get caught, I’m scot-free (guilt-free)
Define guilt. As is, this statement is both correct and incorrect.

Quote from: "tdh26"How do you feel about what Hitler did in Germany?
I don't give a dancing banana.

Quote from: "tdh26"That was just their Social Contract they put together.
Again, yes and no. Do specify.

Quote from: "tdh26"I think it’s cute you associate yourself as no better then a reptile or insect.
I'm a link in the same chain. A link with the ability to break the chain, true, but just a link none the less.

Quote from: "tdh26"You have no binding reason for anyone to go along with this except through force or coercion
Bullshit. People tend to look after their own best interest. Following the basic social contract is most often in their best interest. You do the math.

Quote from: "tdh26"so again, if I get by with it and don’t get caught, I’m scot-free (guilt-free).
Yes and no. It depends on the situation and your definition of guilt.

Quote from: "tdh26"You all need to get together and agree to something.
Point 1: Why?

Point 2:
Quote from: "Jolly Sapper"Like Asmodean keeps saying, its all about the "social contract" and how much faith you put in the ability for one human being to trust that another human being won't turn around and stab him/her in the back. Its the constant struggle between individual liberty (the physical ability to do something or get what you want) and freedom (which requires everybody to give up some of those "liberties" to keep from having everybody living in an overly paranoid state of constant "survival of the fittest" mode.)

Quote from: "tdh26"By this reasoning, what Hitler did in Germany, if he had not invaded other countries, did nothing wrong. He had no treat of punishment once he was in power and he defined the culture by controlling the media. (Jews are scum)
What's your obsession with Hitler? Can't you find a more recent scumbag to make poor references to? Like GWB for instance..?

Quote from: "tdh26"A reasonable answer would be that most of you (atheists) would have a similar foundational belief that can be applied to life as a whole that’s not completely subjective to each situation in life.
"You atheist would have a similar foundational belief..."  ..?  :hail:
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.

Will

I was going to stay out of this, but fine.
Quote from: "tdh26"Social Contract? What an arbitrary term. And who makes-up this contract? Can I just make-up one and call it “My binding civil rules”? (I may not agree to yours!)

Again; If I get by with it and don’t get caught, I’m scot-free (guilt-free)

How do you feel about what Hitler did in Germany? That was just their Social Contract they put together.
A social contract is arbitrary to people who are ignorant to social realities. The contract exists as a matter of existing in a society. When you live in a given society, there are general assumed rules that are usually enforced by a government of some kind. One such rule is not to kill. Most people have this understanding, therefore it's adopted into governmentaly enforceable law. If you don't agree you either accept that it's the rule of the land or you break the law and get consequences. Your example is a bad one, though. Those who are not effected by the taking of a life have severe antisocial personality disorder and probably dissocial personality disorder, characterized by enough diagnostic criteria to be diagnosed on the spot. In other words, if you think murder is okay then you're what's colloquially known as a sociopath.
Quote from: "tdh26"I think it’s cute you associate yourself as no better then a reptile or insect.
Please treat people with respect if for no other reason than Jesus taught you to do so.

I'll answer your question very simply: we're social animals. Our conscience evolved as a survival trait. Humans, for a very long time, existed in family units. When we feel guilt because we have killed or harmed a family member, it is because we have put in danger the continuation of our genes to the next generation. When we feel guilt because we have killed of harmed someone outside the family circle, it is because we have potentially put in danger the continuation of our genes to the next generation via retaliation from their family. These traits have played a major part in the success of our species, therefore they're strong traits that are very common. Those who don't have these traits more often than not are diagnosed with antisocial personality disorder or dissocial personality disorder and are separated for treatment so that they can learn to adapt to social norms.

As for Hitler: the explanation for Nazi Germany is psychological, economic, political and social, but not moral. If you'd really like me to dissect the whole thing let me know and I'll clear my afternoon. The summaraization would be: country loses war, country signs treaty that makes it everyone's bitch, country falls back into conservative fundamentalism and racism due to mass depression and poverty, Hitler uses the opportunity to come to power and push his right wing agenda, Hitler fakes terrorist attacks to ensure all Germans are afraid and are dependent on him and his government for protection and even identity, Hitler consolodates power into the executive, Hitler uses police force to persecute those who are blamed for terrorism...etc. The bottom line: fear, group think, depression, brainwashing, and several other factors are to blame for Nazi Germany. None of it has anything to do with the question of where morality comes from and it has nothing to do with atheism.
I want bad people to look forward to and celebrate the day I die, because if they don't, I'm not living up to my potential.

Asmodean

Quote from: "Willravel"Please treat people with respect if for no other reason than Jesus taught you to do so.
Thanks, Will. But I've done nothing to earn its respect, so it can disrespect me to its heart's content as long as it sticks to forum rules.  (  :D )

*disclaimer for those who wonder: DO notice the cheezy grin at the end. Asmodean does know forum rule number one.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.

Will

Quote from: "Asmodean"Thanks, Will. But I've done nothing to earn its respect, so it can disrespect me to its heart's content as long as it sticks to forum rules.
Gotcha.

I think this is finished, though. You provided the intellectual reasoning right off the bat and I followed up with the innate reason. What more is there?
I want bad people to look forward to and celebrate the day I die, because if they don't, I'm not living up to my potential.

Asmodean

Quote from: "Willravel"What more is there?
See, that's where the line between homo sapiens sapiens and homo jesus fundeus goes. For an intelligent person, this debate is over, but for a regular jesus-variety fundie, there is still a ton of semantics and definitions to dig through in an attempt to... I don't know... Fool itself, maybe..?

 :pop:
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.

Whitney

I don't have anything to add...a valid explanation has been offered and it is the one I would have used in my response.  We covered, social contract, sociopaths....did anyone mention empathy and how all mentally healthy humans have the ability to empathize with others?  There are, of course, some other ways to explain secular morality.  However, I think social contract is the easiest one to understand.