Happy Atheist Forum

[youtube:2nzlsyqu]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HN93ruChnJM[/youtube:2nzlsyqu]

I tried to type out the questions he asks, because it's slightly hard to follow.
But my rewording was for me to understand, so I guess they might be hard to follow too.


1. If there is no god, why is there anything at all? Where did the universe come from?

2. Where is the evidence that life could have begun without intelligent interference?

3. How can evolution explain features like wings?

4. How can the evolutionary model be true since the fossil records emerge from the same time?

5. If there is no objective standard of right or wrong? how can anything be wrong?

6. Which is the logically defensible answer? Simple to complex OR creationism?

7. Natural selection - what came first? The code in the dna or the organism that depends on it for life?

8. ET intelligence ?

9. What if god is real? and you had to stand before him and answer questions?

10. Would you recognize god as your creator?
"Your objections are just a smokescreen, if you say no, your real problem is that you don't want to submit or be accountable to given rules."
He also compared God to Luke Skywalker. That's some z.



I just wanted to see some different intelligent responses.

Quote from: "omfgzmariah"[youtube:2106sfq6]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HN93ruChnJM[/youtube:2106sfq6]

I tried to type out the questions he asks, because it's slightly hard to follow.
But my rewording was for me to understand, so I guess they might be hard to follow too.


1. If there is no god, why is there anything at all? Where did the universe come from?  God doesn't explain anything, he's more of a "god of the gaps" as far as I am concerned.  I usually refer people to read Hawking if they really want to understand the universe a bit better.  I noticed that the gentleman began his rant/video by immediately putting a stipulation on the response.  He essentially said to answer his question, but don't bring up the question of how god came into existence.  If everything has a first cause, and god is the first cause of the universe, god must himself have had to have a first cause.

2. Where is the evidence that life could have begun without intelligent interference?All around us?  The better question is where is the evidence that life began because of intelligent interference?

3. How can evolution explain features like wings?The same way it explains features like eyes, ears, and tails.  I think this question is common among people because the idea of expansive amounts of time is a very hard concept to grasp.  Billions of years of evolution, changing minutely over eons of time, can created nearly anything.  Again, the "god of the gaps" understanding of that which needs an answer comes to mind.

4. How can the evolutionary model be true since the fossil records emerge from the same time?I'm sorry, I'm not following this... probably just my inability to comprehend.

5. If there is no objective standard of right or wrong? how can anything be wrong? There are plenty of models for the standard of right and wrong, MOST of them are NOT religious.  The determination of wrong is made by how something affects the individual, the family/clan, and ultimately the society lived in.

6. Which is the logically defensible answer? Simple to complex OR creationism? See Occam's Razor.

7. Natural selection - what came first? The code in the dna or the organism that depends on it for life?This is the Chicken or the Egg argument.  I believe that DNA is itself a product of evolution, the origin for DNA was RNA and evolved as organisms became more and more complex.

8. ET intelligence ?There is statistically a very good chance that life exists outside our solar system, perhaps even inside, but the distance makes it virtually impossible at this time to communicate.  We are more likely to find microbial life, sooner.

9. What if god is real? and you had to stand before him and answer questions? IF, and that's a big IF god is real, he certainly has a better understanding of how man's mind works, he would have created it afterall, and he surely understands our need to find evidences of the existance of a supreme being.  IF he is both omniscient and omnipotent, he would know I didn't believe in him, so trying to fool him would be impossible.  Either way, I have no real defense other than my search for him turned up nothing, so if he was trying to hide from me, he did a GREAT job.

10. Would you recognize god as your creator?I would recognize god as my creator, when and if, he provides some empirical evidences of his existence.  Even IF he created me, that doesn't make it necessary that I worship him, as his actions do not warrant such obedience.  He does not respond to prayer, he does NOTHING to directly affect the lives of his "creations" and he remains a hidden and narcisistic deity, not worthy of my worship.
"Your objections are just a smokescreen, if you say no, your real problem is that you don't want to submit or be accountable to given rules."
He also compared God to Luke Skywalker. That's some :D

Oh, why not... I'm cold and bored and snappish, so here we go:


1. If there is no god, why is there anything at all? Where did the universe come from?
We have no effing idea where the Universe came from regardless of belief (If you believe god created it, the question of WHERE still applies. Was it god's pocket? His beard..? Somewhere else?)
"Anything at all" is there because there was a bang and a cloud of gas and the whole university level physics book. Why that happened, we do not know.

2. Where is the evidence that life could have begun without intelligent interference?
The evidence for that is very complex and not quite complete. It would take a long time to touch all points, but here are some: Life forms adapt and change without apparent interference of intelligent beings. Single celled organisms manage to survive and multiply without apparent intelligent interference, as do viruses.  Viruses are somewhere inbetween being living organisms and not. They can replicate, however, they do not meet some other common criteria of "living". Chemistry shows that under certain conditions, certain elements react in certain ways. Combined with physics and cybernetics/material engineering, some materials respond to stimuli like electricity in certain ways. Life, broken down to its most basic building blocks, is little more than a number of chemical reactions in a (variably) complex soup of organic substances (willingly simplifying. Don't kling to the word soup). This in itself does not offer conclusive evidence that there is no intelligent first-life creator, however, the evidence for life happening without apparent intelligent interference is far greater than the evidence to support intelligent interference (Anything at all is greater than zero, after all)

3. How can evolution explain features like wings?
Evolved from features like fins.

4. How can the evolutionary model be true since the fossil records emerge from the same time?
Evolution is corroborated by not only bones and old dust, but among others DNA, geography and the like. Evolution is one of the best supported scientific facts and theories among those that are constantly challenged (And usually so poorly that I start to doubt the existence of intelligent life on this planet...)

5. If there is no objective standard of right or wrong? how can anything be wrong?
A lack of an objective standard does not equate to the lack of subjective ones.

6. Which is the logically defensible answer? Simple to complex OR creationism?
Creation myth is not an argument. It is a myth. Logically, it is very poorly defensible since it actually contradicts logic when you start involving complex intelligent beings in it.

7. Natural selection - what came first? The code in the dna or the organism that depends on it for life?
DNA molecules came before DNA-directed life forms. We know they can survive for reasonable amounts of time in protein capsules or in the right conditions.

8. ET intelligence ?
Probably.

9. What if god is real? and you had to stand before him and answer questions?
Why would I want to answer some asshole god's questions even if it WAS real, created the world and ultimately me..? I never asked to be created, thus, being so is a gift and thus, that gift is mine to do with what I will. (It's not really a good, complete response, but it was a thoroughly stupid question)

10. Would you recognize god as your creator?
If it could prove that it was, I would. That wouldn't anywhere near mean that I'd accept god as my lord and master.

Adam Lee, over at Daylight Atheism, has this (http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/09/ten-questions-to-ask-your-pastor.html) riposte.

Quote1. If there is no god, why is there anything at all? Where did the universe come from?

It appears that the universe came from nothing.

Quote"Because there is a law such as gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing. Spontaneous creation is the reason there is something rather than nothing, why the universe exists, why we exist," Hawking writes.

"It is not necessary to invoke God to light the blue touch paper and set the universe going." --- Stephen Hawking

If I met the god of the bible, I would kick his butt for being such a jerk.  If I met Gitche Manito, the great spirit of the Native Americans, well, I would be pleased to know him.

I'm going to sit down and write my answer to these questions, however, I'm afraid they won't be short. I may be done by tomorrow...maybe.  Maybe we should find this guy's e-mail and send him the answers.

Quote from: "Squid"I'm going to sit down and write my answer to these questions, however, I'm afraid they won't be short. I may be done by tomorrow...maybe.  Maybe we should find this guy's e-mail and send him the answers.

Yeah... I was going to, but the tomorrow-factor combined with the maybe-factor scared me away.

Glad you're going for it though - will be an interesting read.  :hmm:

I'd like to answer these, but graduate work must come first.  

1. If there is no god, why is there anything at all? Where did the universe come from?

That doesn't matter. What matters is that we're here and we need to be doing our best to help each other through all this, whatever it is.

2. Where is the evidence that life could have begun without intelligent interference?

To the best of my knowledge there isn't any, but that doesn't matter. What matters is that we're here and we need to be doing our best to help each other through all this, whatever it is.

3. How can evolution explain features like wings?

I don't know enough about evolution to answer that. Have you tried ?

4. How can the evolutionary model be true since the fossil records emerge from the same time?

See my answer to question 3.

5. If there is no objective standard of right or wrong? how can anything be wrong?

Not using a capital H in "how" in the above sentence is wrong.

6. Which is the logically defensible answer? Simple to complex OR creationism?

That doesn't matter. What matters is that we're here and we need to be doing our best to help each other through all this, whatever it is.

7. Natural selection - what came first? The code in the dna or the organism that depends on it for life?

See my answer to question 3.

8. ET intelligence ?

Is that a question?

9. What if god is real? and you had to stand before him and answer questions?

I'd tell god that what matters to me is that we're here and we need to be doing our best to help each other through all this, whatever it is. Then I'd probably ask god what all this is.

10. Would you recognize god as your creator?

That would depend on which god you're talking about. There have, after all, been thousands of them!

1. If there is no god, why is there anything at all? Where did the universe come from?
Wouldn't the existence of a God be mysterious in and of itself? Why does he exist instead of nothing at all? Where did he come from?
I don't know where this universe came from although I have my guesses (see Stephen Hawking and Lawrence Krauss) which are based on reason and science. That's better than making answers up and calling it God.

2. Where is the evidence that life could have begun without intelligent interference?
Where is the evidence life began with intelligent interference? There is none.

3. How can evolution explain features like wings?
Squid's response will be better but basically, 10% of a wing is better than no wing at all. Likely, before evolving into wings the creatures arms resembled something closer to a wing than a regular old arm.

4. How can the evolutionary model be true since the fossil records emerge from the same time?
They don't.

5. If there is no objective standard of right or wrong? how can anything be wrong?
It can't. Not absolutely. It means the universe doesn't care about human moral affairs and humans are left to decide it for themselves.

6. Which is the logically defensible answer? Simple to complex OR creationism?
Simple to complex. Evolution is a fact and I'm not going to spend a bunch of time trying to prove when others have already done so.

7. Natural selection - what came first? The code in the dna or the organism that depends on it for life?
Don't know. That's abiogenesis. Not evolution.

8. ET intelligence ?
Most likely.

9. What if god is real? and you had to stand before him and answer questions?
What if the Flying Spaghetti Monster is real? What if Zeus is real? Daydreaming is fun.

10. Would you recognize god as your creator?
If he were real,yes. Doesn't mean I would worship him if it's the ghastly Yahweh.

Quote from: "Sophus"ghastly Yahweh.

I'm SO calling my next band that!  

Quote from: "Asmodean"EDIT: BTW, was it not 80..? The Book of House..? Your sig..?  

It's been a while so I checked it against IMDB and it says "90".  I guess I could always go back and watch the pilot episode and find out for sure.

Also: I find it funny that the dude in the video implies that we haven't thought about these questions before.

Quote from: "Squid"It's been a while so I checked it against IMDB and it says "90".  I guess I could always go back and watch the pilot episode and find out for sure.

Oh, it can easily be ninety. I just seem to remember it being eighty... Happened before. Claim no surety here  

Quote from: "Squid"I'm going to sit down and write my answer to these questions, however, I'm afraid they won't be short. I may be done by tomorrow...maybe.  Maybe we should find this guy's e-mail and send him the answers.

 

Who is this guy?

Ever since I fled the clutches of religion, I'm so happy not to have to put up with people like this in real life.  I almost can't believe I spent 10 minutes watching his arrogant questions, in which he makes it clear that he will only accept the answers he wants to hear.

The part about comparing believing Luke Skywalker to God is classic.  But what about a guy like me that doesn't even take Star Wars seriously?

Quote from: "omfgzmariah"1. If there is no god, why is there anything at all? Where did the universe come from?

IDK?

Quote2. Where is the evidence that life could have begun without intelligent interference?

Question 1.  A creator would be an intelligence that arose without intelligent interference.  In actuality, this question is merely special pleading on question 1.

Quote3. How can evolution explain features like wings?
4. How can the evolutionary model be true since the fossil records emerge from the same time?

These are explained extensively on other youtube videos.

Quote5. If there is no objective standard of right or wrong? how can anything be wrong?

There can't be, but neither does that objective standard have to be a magical sky d00d.

Quote6. Which is the logically defensible answer? Simple to complex OR creationism?

Simple to complex is already implied by questions 1 and 2, meaning creationism relies on it anyway.  The real question is what evidence there is that this universe was invented rather than merely formed from quantum objects.

Quote7. Natural selection - what came first? The code in the dna or the organism that depends on it for life?

Hydrogen.

Quote8. ET intelligence ?

Maybe.

Quote9. What if god is real? and you had to stand before him and answer questions?

What if bananas were carnivores, would they be the theists worst nightmare?

Quote10. Would you recognize god as your creator?

If he could prove it.

Quote"Your objections are just a smokescreen, if you say no, your real problem is that you don't want to submit or be accountable to given rules."

Were that the case, I'd have converted to catholicism.  Absolution, FTW.

QuoteI just wanted to see some different intelligent responses.

Do mine qualify?

Okay, Christian here.  Let's see if I can bring this list up to a higher intellectual standard (shouldn't be hard, unfortunately)...

Quote1. If there is no god, why is there anything at all? Where did the universe come from?

Whether the universe is (or ever was) capable of spontaneous self-generation is still very much up for debate, although either answer would not preclude a supernatural trigger for the process.  What is most interesting to me personally are the implications of spontaneous self-generation.  Were the so-called "universal constants" generated and separated from each other in the moments after the initial Bang, as we currently believe, or do they have to exist apart from matter for self-generation to be possible?  What stops more huge Universe-generating Bangs from happening at random?  ...etc.

But the question at hand is only theologically useful if you rephrase it as a formal cosmological argument.

Quote2. Where is the evidence that life could have begun without intelligent interference?

I at least know Dawkins' answer to be the anthropic principle, though I think the odds are even longer than he seems to.  He maintains the genesis of, say, RNA need only to have happened once, but in truth it needs to have successfully happened once; when taking into account the number of times it may have been created and then destroyed due to environmental influences or whatever else before it could replicate, the odds of it being a random occurrence go down another several orders of magnitude.

In any case, there is no hard evidence in either direction, but that does not mean that none will be found.  Even though I'm personally inclined to agree that intelligent interference was necessary to start the process of evolution, this is still a 'God of the Gaps' question.

Quote3. How can evolution explain features like wings?

Easily.

Quote4. How can the evolutionary model be true since the fossil records emerge from the same time?

...what.

Quote5. If there is no objective standard of right or wrong? how can anything be wrong?

Without an objective standard, nothing can be right or wrong, correct.  I personally have enormous problems with that implication, but I know of no science-centric (as opposed to philosophy-centric) atheists who have any real problem with it.

Quote6. Which is the logically defensible answer? Simple to complex OR creationism?

Simple to complex, unfortunately for him.

Quote7. Natural selection - what came first? The code in the dna or the organism that depends on it for life?

Most likely the DNA, but again, despite the current lack of hard evidence, this is probably not unknowable.

Quote8. ET intelligence ?

I'm inclined to be skeptical.  Mathematical estimations are inconclusive at their absolute best, and aside from that we have absolutely no evidence that they do exist.  For all the intelligent extraterrestrials out there that supposedly could exist, they sure do a good job of not letting anyone know that they're out there.

But at the end of the day, I can only honestly say that I side with Calvin (http://vieta.math.tu-cottbus.de/~kolb/calvin1.gif).

Quote9. What if god is real? and you had to stand before him and answer questions?

Ugh.  "What if you're wrong?"  I've watched Religulous I don't know how many times, and I gagged every time someone said this (Maher included).  How is this meant to convince anyone of anything?

Quote10. Would you recognize god as your creator?

Atheists don't recognize God at all.  Really, what is so hard to understand about that?

This guy really seems to be the type of Christian who thinks people who call themselves atheists are just faking it or in denial or whatever (the 'smokescreen' quote really seems to drive that home).  I can't see any other explanation for the thought that this might be an even remotely revealing question.


So let's tally: Five 'God of the Gaps' questions, two that suck, and only three that are any good whatsoever.  1) Rephrase the first as a cosmological argument and it would at least be valid.  2) I personally find that the ET question is more useful as an examination of scientific atheism generally than it is as an argument against atheism, but it's not the worst question I've ever seen.  The question of objective morality I think is the only one that really holds any significant amount of water, but this guy does it no justice (then again, can you do it justice in a couple minutes of video on YouTube?).


 - Diosjenin -

Quote from: "Diosjenin"The question of objective morality I think is the only one that really holds any significant amount of water, but this guy does it no justice (then again, can you do it justice in a couple minutes of video on YouTube?).


 - Diosjenin -

Do you think that objective morality is impossible aside from imposition by a creator?

Quote from: "PoopShoot"Do you think that objective morality is impossible aside from imposition by a creator?

The existence of a creator is necessary for the existence of an absolute moral standard, yes.

 - Diosjenin -

Quote from: "Diosjenin"

Quote from: "PoopShoot"Do you think that objective morality is impossible aside from imposition by a creator?

The existence of a creator is necessary for the existence of an absolute moral standard, yes.

 - Diosjenin -

I didn't say absolute, I said objective.  Absolute morality doesn't exist, even in theism.

Quote from: "Parsifal"Who is this guy?

An idiot, a religious one at that, who, apparently, thinks that the atheists in general must be just as idiotic as he.

Quote from: "Diosjenin"Ugh. "What if you're wrong?" I've watched Religulous I don't know how many times, and I gagged every time someone said this (Maher included). How is this meant to convince anyone of anything?

You know, I almost threw a flower pot at the screen when that trucker started babbling about how he was a satanic priest with drugs and women and rolls of money...  

QuoteSimple to complex, unfortunately for him.

Some people have apparently never heard of lego bricks, houses, anthills, dunes, snow flakes or the like.

None of those things can, as far as we know, be just wished into existence. However, all of them are present and all have begun as much simpler structures.

Quote from: "Asmodean"You know, I almost threw a flower pot at the screen when that trucker started babbling about how he was a satanic priest with drugs and women and rolls of money...  

I feel the same way about comedian Mike Warnke (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Warnke).  Not only does his story of having been a Satanist high priest reek of inaccuracy about the Satanic church (he even claims to have used the LaVeyan bible as a guide, but also that it and he both claimed Satan to be an actual entity), but an investigation by a Christian magazine debunked his lies, yet he stands by them.  No tthat I care for Satanism, but what does it take for those allegedly the only moral people on Earth to have a bit or two of honesty?

I once made my own list for Christians, but in an Afrikaans newspaper here in South Africa, so I can't copy and paste it here.  But it boiled down to this:

QuoteDear Christians,

You see, I really want to believe in the biblical tale of creation and the other stuff in the bible.  I just have a few problems.  If, as you maintain, evolution isn't true, why:
1. Do whales have the vestiges of hind legs?
2. Do we share appendices just like other apes?
3. Are our skeletons exactly the same as that of the other apes, except for some variations in shape?
4. Do whales have chambers in their stomachs, exactly like sheep, cattle and hippos, if they didn't have a common ancestor?
5. Is our DNA 99% (or there abouts) similar to that of chimps?
6. Do we have wisdom teeth?
7. Do we have vestiges of a tail?
8. Do we get a coat of hair in the womb that we loose before birth?
9. etc etc

If you can help me with this, soon I'll be back in the church benches judging all others and condeming them to hell with you.

Yours sincerely,

An Atheist

Of course the list can go on and on.  I was not given a straight answer (of course not), other than the usual drivel of god making it like that to test us and the other ready made (yet long debunked) answers against evolution.

@ PS

Hahah! Yeah, look at his Wiki page. "Known for"-line below the photo someplace is... Priceless

Quote from: "PoopShoot"I didn't say absolute, I said objective.

My mistake.

Quote from: "Asmodean"You know, I almost threw a flower pot at the screen when that trucker started babbling about how he was a satanic priest with drugs and women and rolls of money...  :hissyfit:   What made him think that was a good idea?  Did he really not expect babbling incoherence?  *grumble*

 - Diosjenin -

Quote from: "omfgzmariah"[youtube:277w65cd]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HN93ruChnJM[/youtube:277w65cd]

Really? Half of those are about evolution, which really doesn't have anything to do with atheism.  I can believe that all life was created by a race of aliens and still be an atheist (maybe not an intelligent atheist, but...) Okay, let me try this out...

Quote1. If there is no god, why is there anything at all? Where did the universe come from?

Big Bang. Origin of Space and time. There was nothing before it. Anything we try to imagine beyond the Big Bang that may have "Caused" it is meaningless. It would be outside the 11 dimensions of the universe, and therefore irrelevant to anything that we could possible experience. No one knows anything about this postulated thing outside the universe, and religions are filthy liars for pretending that they do.

After the big Bang all Every Fermion and Boson, and all the forces of the universe, and all the atoms of all the stars, everything that ever was, and ever will be arranged itself into what we experience today with our limited human perception.  It's where the sun came from, and the Earth, and the first organic molecules, and the origin of pre-biotic life, and Human Beings originated from. It's really more poetic than anything the Bible has to offer.

I like how this guy discounts the "Where did God come from?" argument by saying "There was no time before god. God created the universe and created time. He is self existent!" So we both agree that the origin of the universe was a self existent thing from before time, the only difference is that there is actually EVIDENCE for the Big Bang.

Quote2. Where is the evidence that life could have begun without intelligent interference?

Why, it's in this video, of course!
[youtube:277w65cd]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6QYDdgP9eg[/youtube:277w65cd]

Quote3. How can evolution explain features like wings?

In Birds? Insects? Bats? I think it's simple enough: Feathers are first seen in dinosaurs as insulation (More efficient insulation than hair) and as a mating display.  Flight most likely originated from small dinosaurs gliding from trees to catch prey (It's adaptive: Nature selects).  In insects, it was simply an extra series of proteins extending from the exoskeleton making it easy to "fly" away from predators by catching the wind. Bats' wings are not an evolutionary impossibility by any stretch of the imagination. Gliding insectivores. We see things like this everywhere. What we don't see is a giant hand reaching out of the sky to create them.

Irreducible complexity is a sham.  Every example of it breaks down before even the slightest scrutiny.

Quote4. How can the evolutionary model be true since the fossil records emerge from the same time?

Cambrian explosion actually makes a lot of sense. There was an explosion of complexity in the genetic code around 530 million years ago. There was a sudden spike in the oxygen in the atmosphere due to a boom in vegetation population. Most phylums of organism developed at this time as a result of more nutrients, and a more hospitable planet.  This started a race for the most adaptive organisms. Predator/Prey relationships began to develop between organisms by this time.  If you didn't have the genetic plasticity adapt to your environment quickly, you were naturally omitted from the gene pool.

In other words, the development of life was a catalyst driving the further development of life. The increase in complexity was exponential.

Quote5. If there is no objective standard of right or wrong? how can anything be wrong?

We went over this for a very long time in this thread: http://www.happyatheistforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=5630&p=80062#p80062
I hold the contention that morality developed as an evolutionary inevitability. We humans are social animals, and from the earliest hunter-gatherer groups of Australopithecus Natural Selection refined in the human mind behaviors of not harming one another. What was good for the group was good for each individual. It aided the total survival of the group, and nature selected for it.  So today we see the concept that it is right to help each other, and wrong to harm each other. Right to cause each other happiness, wrong to cause each other suffering.

Quote6. Which is the logically defensible answer? Simple to complex OR creationism?

Yes, in a close system, things left on their own will grow towards more disorder. However, Earth is not a closed system. We get energy from the sun! So things go from simple to complex given the right chemical makeup, and the right exchange of energy.  This planet does not have all of it's energy being scattered randomly throughout the universe, it's actually utilized very efficiently and exchanged by organisms on this planet. Thank you evolution! The bible doesn't even come close to explaining these properties of life. You know why? Because it was written by thousands years old goat herders who wanted a quick easy way to answer their primitive curiosities, while at the same time controlling other people who haven't "heard the voice of god!"

Quote7. Natural selection - what came first? The code in the dna or the organism that depends on it for life?

I am positive I've already put up this video, but My answer remains the same:
[youtube:277w65cd]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6QYDdgP9eg[/youtube:277w65cd]

Quote8. ET intelligence ?

I don't see why not. The universe is INFINITE everything must exist at some place and time!

Quote9. What if god is real? and you had to stand before him and answer questions?

Pascal's wager? I'm not sure what this is meant to ask. God could just read my mind. I'd try to be honest with the big BMF. I'm positive that a just god would understand why I'm an atheist, and not be so petty that he actually decides to torture me for eternity as punishment for this thoughtcrime. If such a god did exist, I would certainly not want worship him. I have too much dignity to grovel before some megalomaniac asshole.

Quote10. Would you recognize god as your creator?

If this guy was able to answer all my objections to Christianity to my full satisfaction? I suppose, but I have A LOT of objections! I seriously doubt this guy can answer for all of them.  There are too many problems with the God Delusion for me to believe in such a thing. Therefore, I am an atheist.

1. If there is no god, why is there anything at all? Where did the universe come from?
No one knows for sure, but we're starting to get a general idea. That idea, when it eventually becomes theory, will be based on extensive research, data collection, studying, experimentation, peer review, and conclusive, predictive results.

2. Where is the evidence that life could have begun without intelligent interference?
We only have some evidence of natural abiogenesis, but what little evidence is available to explain the origin of life eclipses the lack of evidence for intelligent abiogenesis.

3. How can evolution explain features like wings?
Beautifully. Imagine, if you will, an organism which jumps in order to survive, be it by collecting food or escaping predators. Now, imagine a random mutation in such and organism results in a tiny bit of webbing that allows jumping to be slightly more efficient. Perhaps, for example, the organism can glide a bit longer, meaning predators have more trouble capturing them or maybe they can land from higher branches. Repeat this over millions of years and you'll see the evolutionary explanation for wings.

4. How can the evolutionary model be true since the fossil records emerge from the same time?
I'm going to have to guess at what this question means. We're all transitional fossils, and many members of the same species are seeing what will ultimately be beneficial mutations, many of them heading in seemingly different directions at seemingly different rates. Evolution isn't a clean line.

5. If there is no objective standard of right or wrong? how can anything be wrong?
There's no evidence for a supernatural creator imposing a rigid moral code on the universe. That doesn't necessarily mean there's no objective morality, though it makes such a position defensible.

6. Which is the logically defensible answer? Simple to complex OR creationism?
Simple to complex, of course, as there's so much evidence to verify it.

7. Natural selection - what came first? The code in the dna or the organism that depends on it for life?
The DNA.

8. ET intelligence ?
It's possible.

9. What if god is real? and you had to stand before him and answer questions?
I'd tell him or her to go fuck him or herself for having the power to prevent bad things from happening but standing by and doing nothing. Do you know how many people spend their entire lives starving or ill?

10. Would you recognize god as your creator?
I was created from the marriage of ovum and sperm nine months before my birth. I recognize the biological process of reproduction as being responsible for my 'creation'.

Quote from: "Diosjenin"What made him think that was a good idea?  Did he really not expect babbling incoherence?  *grumble*

Probably because the truckers were more representative of the general "flock" than the theology professors. After all, your general Bible Belt fundie would probably call a master theologian ten thousand kinds of blasphemer.

Quote from: "YT apologist"1. If there is no god, why is there anything at all? Where did the universe come from?

Several things here. Firstly, I'll deal with the latter part:

'Where' is a concept that pertains to spatial location. Since, as far as we can tell, there was no space before the instantiation of the cosmos, there was no 'where'. This can be elucidated quite nicely with the question 'where is the centre of the universe' and the answer 'everywhere!'

Secondly, for the first part, that there is anything at all can be dealt with by referring to the implications of Heisenberg. 'Nothing' would constitute a zero field, which is prohibited by quantum uncertainty, because it would constitute a field whose value (position) and rate of change (velocity) we could know with absolute certainty. This is not possible.

Quote2. Where is the evidence that life could have begun without intelligent interference?

This is a horrible mis-statement of the problem. Where is the evidence for intelligent interference? As it happens, though, the scientific literature on abiogenesis is extensive. It isn't complete, but then we've only had 70 years or so, and very small laboratories, while the Earth had a lab the size of, well, the Earth, and half a billion years. Mere god-of-the-gaps argumentation, whose value we can see in all the things that were supposedly done by god but have since been shown by science to arise from the operating principles of the universe quite naturally. Where we have testable natural mechanisms to account for phenomena, god is superfluous. Where don't asserting a god that has been defeated at every turn is ridiculous.

Quote3. How can evolution explain features like wings?

By the accumulation of of a long chain of incremental changes.

Quote4. How can the evolutionary model be true since the fossil records emerge from the same time?

They don't. They show a clear progression.

Quote5. If there is no objective standard of right or wrong? how can anything be wrong?

It can't. It can only be subjectively so. Interestingly, what is often misunderstood by the credulous is that if morality is predicated on the whim of a single individual, it is necessarily subjective. In any event, our morality stems from our evolutionary past, and is quite parsimoniously explained by the simple principle of our being social animals, and morality being that which allows us to function as such.

Quote6. Which is the logically defensible answer? Simple to complex OR creationism?

Logic? Since creationism, especially such pathetic formulations as the Genesis drivel, has been shown to be anything but logical and, more importantly, not in accord with reality, the answer to this doesn't even need to be stated. Indeed, it doesn't actually rise to the level of being worthy of response.

Quote7. Natural selection - what came first? The code in the dna or the organism that depends on it for life?

Code? There is no code in DNA. DNA is a chemical molecule. Our treatment of it as a code (actually a cipher, not a code) allows us to formalise it, which means that we can model its behaviour and properties.

Quote8. ET intelligence ?

Where is the question here? Am I supposed to explain extraterrestrial intelligence? I'd be happy to do so once it has been shown that any exists. As it happens, I think it likely that there is, but whether it would have the same properties as our own (alleged) intelligence is another matter. Our command of our environment isn't simply a product of intelligence, but requires other features, all of which stem from our evolutionary past. It also requires opposable thumbs for the manipulation and manufacture of tools, which in turn works best in a bipedal organism. Once the progenitors of these factors are in place, they provide a positive feedback loop, and each feature drives the evolution of the others.

Quote9. What if god is real? and you had to stand before him and answer questions?

What if my auntie had a penis? She'd be my uncle. In any event, if I were introduced to a deity, I wouldn't be the one answering questions, I'd be the one asking them, like what he thought he was playing at.

Quote10. Would you recognize god as your creator?

That would depend on your definition of god. There are many definitions, and not all of them involve being the creator, or even a creator.

1. If there is no god, why is there anything at all? Where did the universe come from?
I don't know. oh, and im fine with that.
2. Where is the evidence that life could have begun without intelligent interference?
Again, I don't know.  What evidence is there to support that it did? :shake:
4. How can the evolutionary model be true since the fossil records emerge from the same time?
 :cool:
9. What if god is real? and you had to stand before him and answer questions?
IN all seriousness -I would hypothetically kick HIM in the nuts.
10. Would you recognize god as your creator?
No. Just like i wouldnt recognize the Boogeyman as my childhood terrorizer.
"Your objections are just a smokescreen, if you say no, your real problem is that you don't want to submit or be accountable to given rules."
AHAHAHAHA, im sorry this is too funny
*edit, typoeee

Quote from: "Ã¥scertain"I Don't fully subscribe to evolution. Haven't looked into it yet.

This interests me. May we help you with this? It's very straightforward, and the evidence is overwhelming.

These are really awful questions. There's nothing to do with the actual philosophy behind the rejection of God. In fact, the common theme is, "Why do you believe in science instead of MY god?" And, there are a LOT of Gods to be atheist to. And some of them have no problem if you believe in the Big Bang, or Evolution.

Like I said, there's no philosophy. Just bullshitty questions that stem from a complete ignorance of science.

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi67.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh308%2FTK_Grimmlok%2Funinterested.jpg&hash=d7dc65b54db5fc4a799ef999f74964ee9e407c02)

Something I've been meaning to ask...

Why does the op (or, in this case, the video dude) think that it takes intelligent atheists to answer dumb ass questions..?  

Quote1. If there is no god, why is there anything at all? Where did the universe come from?

Where did god come from? Why do you set a rule requiring a creator and then break your own rule? In any case we don't know why there is something rather then nothing, however this gap in our knowledge does not require us to fill it in with whatever we want.

Quote2. Where is the evidence that life could have begun without intelligent interference?

You speak as if the default is intelligently designed life. Since you make this claim you must provide evidence to back it up. And again simply because we do not know does not mean you can fill in the gap of knowledge with God. Evolution is one working model that provides a very satisfying explanation.

Quote3. How can evolution explain features like wings?

Here you go: http://talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB921_2.html

Quote4. How can the evolutionary model be true since the fossil records emerge from the same time?

You'll need to be more specific.

Quote5. If there is no objective standard of right or wrong? how can anyt

hing be wrong?

Why do you consider God's standard of right or wrong an "objective" standard? It is simply another subjective standard of morality, created from God's point of view. In any case we can arrive at a system of morality by using reason. Morality is largely a set of rules that are instinctive in us, even some animals have been observed to have moral systems!

Quote6. Which is the logically defensible answer? Simple to complex OR creationism?

Simple to complex is more logical. In our world we continually see simple organisms gradually evolve and grow into more complex organisms. Systems start as simple and grow into more and more complex models.

Quote7. Natural selection - what came first? The code in the dna or the organism that depends on it for life?

Don't know. You'll have to ask a biologist. At this point you have completely gone off track. You are no longer talking about God, you are simply attempting to discredit evolution. Let me inform you: Even if evolution by way of natural selection is proven to be completely false it still does not prove God in the slightest.

Quote8. ET intelligence?

I assume you mean aliens? They might exist, they might not. Not relevant to the discussion.

Quote9. What if god is real? and you had to stand before him and answer questions?

Like many others have said before me: "Why did you try so hard to hide yourself? Why did you let so much suffering happen in your name?"

Quote10. Would you recognize god as your creator?

If I died and God appeared before me with indisputable proof that he is the creator of the universe I would recognize that fact. However I would not accept him as a dictator or ruler. Simply because he created me does not give him the right to rule over me.

I think we should all combine our thinking power and come up with a response: Ten Questions Every Intelligent Theist Should Answer, and choose our best personality to be in the YouTube video.  

What say Ye?!

Quote from: "Sophus"I think we should all combine our thinking power and come up with a response: Ten Questions Every Intelligent Theist Should Answer, and choose our best personality to be in the YouTube video.  :D Not nearly photogenic enough to be the host though.

In fact, I think HAF should have a YT channel. Mayhaps even a couple of fixed-time sendings (Like once a month or so...)  

I don't see why anyone would bother trying to respond to the man in the OP video since hardly any of his questions are something an intelligent person would ask another intelligent person.

Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"Adam Lee, over at Daylight Atheism, has this (http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/09/ten-questions-to-ask-your-pastor.html) riposte.

Quote from: "Whitney"I don't see why anyone would bother trying to respond to the man in the OP video since hardly any of his questions are something an intelligent person would ask another intelligent person.

Well, one CAN grind his virtual nose inta' the dirt of ignorance, can one not? Just for personal satisfaction..?  

Quote from: "Asmodean"

Quote from: "Whitney"I don't see why anyone would bother trying to respond to the man in the OP video since hardly any of his questions are something an intelligent person would ask another intelligent person.

Well, one CAN grind his virtual nose inta' the dirt of ignorance, can one not? Just for personal satisfaction..?  :)  These questions I'd expect from say 'Sarah Palin' - she makes the U.S. a laughing stock...you bet ya! Even the most educated of people can be misguided, as I see everyday in the hospital where I work. Even scientific and medical people.  I came to the conclusion they needed religion because without it they were afraid.  :)

Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"

Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"Adam Lee, over at Daylight Atheism, has this (http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/09/ten-questions-to-ask-your-pastor.html) riposte.

Those are very good.

I think we some original minds here, though and may be able to come up with some just as good!

QuoteIn fact, I think HAF should have a YT channel. Mayhaps even a couple of fixed-time sendings (Like once a month or so...)

Or if not a channel what about a group (assuming such a feature exists)? So that any HAFers can join to share videos from a common outlet.

Here's a question I have:

Given that Christianity is not, nor its roots (Judaism), the oldest known religion, why did God wait so long to reveal Himself to man?


Feel free to add on to it.

Quote from: "Sophus"Here's a question I have:

Given that Christianity is not, nor its roots (Judaism), the oldest known religion, why did God wait so long to reveal Himself to man?


Feel free to add on to it.

Why did god create a man and then shape a woman out of a rib..?

Would it not be easier to create a woman pregnant with a boy? OR, better yet, something like 10-15000 people, just for the genetic diversity of it?

Quote from: "Sophus"Here's a question I have:

Given that Christianity is not, nor its roots (Judaism), the oldest known religion, why did God wait so long to reveal Himself to man?


Feel free to add on to it.

Precisely how can one determine what is truth and what is simply metaphor in the bible? Why do many people disagree about what is and is not literal? Have you noticed that the list of "metaphors" has increased over time as science has proven them to be absurd?

The oldest religion is animism which is still practiced in many parts of the world.  Hinduism is also much older than Judaism by thousands of years.  The Jewish religion isn't even the first monotheistic religion.

There are two versions of the creation of humans.  The first in Genesis 1 male and female were created at the same time and in the image of god.

Quote27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.

The story of the male being created from mud and the female from a rib is in Genesis 2.  This is one of the many glaring inconsistencies of the bible.

Idk why I didn't notice this before, but now that I have it's going to make me crazy. Can one of the mods fix the spelling in the title of this thread?

Or are we talking about those of us who are the most athy. I bet I'm athier than just about anyone.  

Quote from: "elliebean"Idk why I didn't notice this before, but now that I have it's going to make me crazy. Can one of the mods fix the spelling in the title of this thread?

, I will go fix it...but only because the OP wasn't actually posted by the video guy.  (I make that same typo myself more often than I'd like to admit)

Probably the oldest religion involved fire, the great god fire. Can't you just see those cavemen sitting around the campfire roasting whatever animal they could catch and beat over the head. Hot food, yum, beats eating all those bitter leaves and berries - good job we had an appendix then too, it sure got used then. Manmade god, fire or deity, sacrifice to the crop god so we'll have wheat, we'll have potatoes instead of blight. There has to be something of higher authority than us humans they thought, from ignorance stems superstition. Man made gods/deities in man's image, man made religions to wage war and control the masses.

From the dirt, in a way that's where we came from, from the first amino acid, from a pool of gooey water, to eventually crawl on land. From ribs/bones, in a way as we all have backbones and dna. Of course the female coming second was a ploy to demote females, we see this throughout history. Not just in religions also within ancient tribes. When it is blatant it is so offensive. So many scriptures thrown to the wind because they spoke of a relationship between Mary Magdalene and Jesus. So much bending of truths to the point that religions are fairytales. Used and abused to kick sand in the face of women. Keep them pregnant and barefoot. The bible, written by men for men. Men who wish to be king.

Ten questions every believer should answer.

Where is god
Who is god
How old is god
What is god made of
Does god have a lisp or is he perfect
Why is god male
Where does god vacation
If he looks like us and he's male then does he also look like me, I'm female, how can that be
Did god come about by way of intelligent design
So, who designed him

Seems we could have more questions to ask them than they have to ask of us. Only their answers are predictable and without any scientific backing.
 

Why would any ruler give his subjects "free will" and then punish them for not using it in the way he desires?  Is that really free at all?

Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"Why would any ruler give his subjects "free will" and then punish them for not using it in the way he desires?  Is that really free at all?

Why is sky daddy even a ruler? A ruler is only so when he's recognised as such. Thus, no god rules MY world.

Quote from: "omfgzmariah"I tried to type out the questions he asks, because it's slightly hard to follow.
But my rewording was for me to understand, so I guess they might be hard to follow too.


1. If there is no god, why is there anything at all? Where did the universe come from?
If there is a god, how long did he hold in the fart used to crated the universe? Seriously? This question again? Anyone else want to shove their head through a wall reading this?
2. Where is the evidence that life could have begun without intelligent interference?
Give me any proof that your god exists, then maybe, after I finish laughing at it, we can talk.
3. How can evolution explain features like wings?
If you did some studying you might figure it out...but you won't and I'm not about to teach you either.
4. How can the evolutionary model be true since the fossil records emerge from the same time?
Not. Even. Going. There.
5. If there is no objective standard of right or wrong? how can anything be wrong?
It's called evolutionary morality. Least ways that's what I call it.
6. Which is the logically defensible answer? Simple to complex OR creationism?
Which has more evidence to back it, evolution or creationism?
7. Natural selection - what came first? The code in the dna or the organism that depends on it for life?
Kinda like the chicken or the egg isn't it?
8. ET intelligence ?
With some current estimation of 1;1,000,000,000 odds of life and 1:1,000,000,000,000 for intelligent life, that's still some pretty good odds for some kinds of alien life form in the universe...
9. What if god is real? and you had to stand before him and answer questions?
Then I'll tell him that he has some real bullshit methods, that he lies, and that I am morally superior to him. Also, all the fun peeps are in hell anyway.
10. Would you recognize god as your creator?
No, no....nope...nien...uhm...fuck no...how many ways can I say it?




I just wanted to see some different intelligent responses.

Quote from: "Asmodean"

Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"Why would any ruler give his subjects "free will" and then punish them for not using it in the way he desires?  Is that really free at all?

Why is sky daddy even a ruler? A ruler is only so when he's recognised as such. Thus, no god rules MY world.

Well yeah.  But my point was directed more at the apologists who'd argue that free will is "free" when punishment is promised for the "wrong" choice.

If there is compulsion, then the choice is not free.

So I think we're up to six or seven of our own questions right? And we already have one atheist (notself) answering them.

Quote from: "omfgzmariah"5. If there is no objective standard of right or wrong? how can anything be wrong?

Questions like this make me really wonder what the masses of hardcore religious people would do if there ever came a day when any type of creator's existence was undoubtedly proven wrong. It is a common enough question so they must really feel that the only reason why they do good in life is tied to their belief in a god. Instead of answering this question I would wonder how they can conclude that there is no wrong if there is no god. Not to mention how a country bumpkin like myself understands right and wrong without understanding how others can conclude there is a god.