Happy Atheist Forum

Myself and my partner are both Atheist, but we want to send our daughter to the best school we can afford (like any parent). The best schools in our area happen to be religious. I have always wanted to send her to a private school, unfortunately there are only two private non religious schools in my state. One is perfect, but we will have to move (which we are willing, but can't do until I have finished Uni), the other is FAR too expensive.

I have applied for one Catholic and two Anglican schools, but now having second thoughts. I have been told that the religious education is not too full on and all they do at other times is a few prayers, but how do we really know what they're teaching the kids? Does anyone have any experience with religious schools? Particularly in Australia.

I went to a religious school for 4th grade. I strongly recommend against even religious people sending their kids to religious schools. Even in the good ones, the science they teach is questionable, the teachers are snobby assholes which means the kids in turn become snobby assholes. And even at the better religious schools there's a lot of religion.

Then again, that's the United States. I can't speak to Australia.

I generally advise against private school unless public options are dangerous or offer sub-par education.  Kids who are in private school generally come from rich families, tend to be snobs, and lack the social ability to get along well with real people.  I attended private school through 7th grade and transferred to public in 8th grade; I got a good education at both schools and was challenged at both schools in the long run.  We need life experience just as much as we need quality education and only socializing with snobby rich kids is going to skew one's perception of how to interact with others once they are out of school.

I would also argue that any school that includes religious teachings as fact in their curriculum is not a quality education.  That said, I do know an atheist who's parents are atheists yet he was sent to religious school because it was good....he said that his particular school was very liberal and actually had religious studies classes where they truly investigated various beliefs.

So, if you can find a religious school that teaches religion critically and is not filled with mostly rich kids and offers high quality educational experiences then it might just be worth giving a try....but I'd still only choose it if public school options simply were not tolerable.

Quote from: "Whitney"So, if you can find a religious school that teaches religion critically ....

That's a big "if" there.

I would not send my kids to anything religious in bias unless they specifically asked me to.

We seriously looked into this.  There is a little Christian school near us that my boss sends her kids to and raves about.  So, we went a couple of years ago to check it out.  The K classroom was awesome: pet bunny, large comfy bean bag chairs the kids could relax or read in, only 17 max allowed in the class, cozy decor (no institutionalized concrete walls and buzzing lights).  They said they met in the mornings to give a prayer of thanks and started Bible study class in the second grade.  We were almost sold, telling ourselves that Christianity is such a large part of our culture that it wouldn't hurt the kids to learn that aspect of society.

The deal breaker came when an administrator--who also had a kid in the school--came to talk to us about why she loves the school as a mom and an administrator.  She said that she loves that the kids are taught the truth about hard topics.  She used a project her son did on the Mayans as an example.  She said that he learned that even though the Mayans were amazing mathematicians and scientists, they were ultimately destroyed because they didn't worship the one true god.  I couldn't send my kid to a school who taught such uninformed, prejudiced nonsense.

It reminded me of when my niece came home from a Christian school after Princess Diana died.  She announced at the dinner table:  Poor Princess Diana is burning in hell right now because she got a divorce.  My teacher said anyone who gets a divorce is breaking god's law.  Should we tell Grandma she's going to hell?  Do you think she already knows that?

Both of these stories are from American Christian schools.  I use them to illustrate that I wouldn't be worried so much about the religion class.  I'm guessing it would be pretty standard Bible story and character teaching for a big chunk of it.  It's these little "gems" that are bound to pop out of the teachers who are very serious believers that would concern me more.  You can check out the curriculum and see the stance on the Bible and science they will take, but you can't really know what side comments will be made in history, etc. to give that Christian flavoring some uumph!

Good luck finding a school that is a good fit for your family.

My daughter (8) goes to 7th Day Adventist school.  I was married to a SDA for 10 years (was christian when we met).  Divorced for two years now, with my daughter in the third grade.  I hate it that she is being programmed by these fools with their crap, but I must admit that the teacher-to-student ratio is excellent and, in this school, there are no drugs or violence.  Me...I went to public school my whole life.  Now, I do my best to de-bug my little girl during the times we have together.

Quote from: "sammylama"My daughter (8) goes to 7th Day Adventist school.

You may not have much to worry about.  I attended Adventist schools from 5th grade to my first year of college (Andrews University) and I can say that it did not keep me an SDA.  Once I left AU and started my drinking carrier I can say that I was quite the agnostic/atheist for many years.  Then a lone wolf Christian for more then a decade after that.

I do hear statistics that the falloff rate for Christian teens is something like 75% leaving the Church.  I blame this on an anti-intellectualism movement that has blinded some to how to defend the faith.

I don't know about if my case is typical but I would caution any Atheist parents to think if trying to indoctrinate them in Atheism may have the opposite effect.  As a young adult I wanted to rebel against the world view of my parents.  Yet there is a risk that your Children could still become Christians as God must act upon you personally and give you a very personal revelation.  This would mean that God is real and can change hearts and minds that are open to God.

You could just teach your children critical thinking skills and logic then let them have the freedom to decide for themselves. Again I am bias but tend to see it as giving them a even chance to go either way.

I have to admit here that I have returned to the Adventist Church (Happy Sabbath) but then I have a personal testimony that none here are inclined to believe. (amiright?) Or to put it this way something happened to me so that I can no longer rationally deny the amazing grace of our Lord and Savior.

Quote from: "freeservant"

Quote from: "sammylama"My daughter (8) goes to 7th Day Adventist school.

You could just teach your children critical thinking skills and logic then let them have the freedom to decide for themselves. Again I am bias but tend to see it as giving them a even chance to go either way.

I have to admit here that I have returned to the Adventist Church (Happy Sabbath) but then I have a personal testimony that none here are inclined to believe. (amiright?) Or to put it this way something happened to me so that I can no longer rationally deny the amazing grace of our Lord and Savior.

I have to admit that you're not sounding like your average SDA, and I ought to know (my grandmother's SDA roots go all the way back to when they were still Millerites).  

Not trying to indoctrinate my daughter, just provide a little balance.  Critical thinking skills...yes.

And yeah...Happy Sabbath  

Hello everyone.
I am an atheist, my wife had a strong view that our kids should attend an Australian Catholic School, so they did.
Through her work she met kids attending both public and Catholic schools, she felt the Catholic system turned out nicer kids.
The Aus school system breakdown: "(72%) were government schools, 18% were Catholic schools and 10% were Independent schools". http://www.abs.gov.au/Ausstats/abs@.nsf ... enDocument (http://www.abs.gov.au/Ausstats/abs@.nsf/7d12b0f6763c78caca257061001cc588/9fa90aec587590edca2571b00014b9b3!OpenDocument)

Anyway I'm happy with my kid’s education, I don't think religion is overplayed.
Teachers wouldn't get away with any and weird fundamentalist stuff.

Speaking anecdotally, quite a few of my friends from junior high went on to go to Catholic high schools.  Several of them have ended up in jail, turned into total burn outs, and at least one of them was hooked on crack and heroin for awhile.

Not that your average public school kid isn't just as likely to do some of these things, but in my experience, it seems like those stuck in the sort of oppressive atmosphere imposed by a private religious education tend to go overboard in the whole freedom and experimentation period as a freshly minted young adult, and that the consequences are less than savory.

So no, if I had a hypothetical child, I would NOT send them to a religious institute for education.

I would avoid doing so not only because of the claptrap that might be taught, but also I have a pretty firm rule against lending any financial support to any religious institutions.

I'm lucky here because Ventura's schools are consistently rated "outstanding" by the State; I also take an active role in my son's education.

Quote from: "philosoraptor"Speaking anecdotally, quite a few of my friends from junior high went on to go to Catholic high schools.  Several of them have ended up in jail, turned into total burn outs, and at least one of them was hooked on crack and heroin for awhile.
 it seems like those stuck in the sort of oppressive atmosphere imposed by a private religious education tend to go overboard in the whole freedom and experimentation period as a freshly minted young adult, and that the consequences are less than savory.

So no, if I had a hypothetical child, I would NOT send them to a religious institute for education.

I'm not a hard line atheist, embittered by bad experiences with religious institutions.
I can say my kids and their friends are not oppressed.
My eldest child has completed her schooling and is now attending University.
She doesn't seem to binge any more than the average student.
Well that's what she tells may anyway.

Quote from: "philosoraptor"Speaking anecdotally, quite a few of my friends from junior high went on to go to Catholic high schools.  Several of them have ended up in jail, turned into total burn outs, and at least one of them was hooked on crack and heroin for awhile.

Not that your average public school kid isn't just as likely to do some of these things, but in my experience, it seems like those stuck in the sort of oppressive atmosphere imposed by a private religious education tend to go overboard in the whole freedom and experimentation period as a freshly minted young adult, and that the consequences are less than savory.

So no, if I had a hypothetical child, I would NOT send them to a religious institute for education.

Yeah, this was my experience growing up as well.  If you wanted to find the biggest drug addicts, the craziest thrill seekers or the easiest slut bunnies, you looked for kids in private religious schools.  It was always a safer bet that the private school kids were more effed up than the public school kids, but again that's just my anecdotal experience.  I would avoid private religious institutions simply because I wouldn't feel comfortable financially supporting the perpetuation of what I see as a lie.  If a family is already prepared to relocate to attend a specific school, would it really be that much more trouble to relocate to a place with a secular schooling choice, public or private, that is acceptable?  Private certainly doesn't always mean better, especially religious private.

Maybe the definition of a religious school is different in the US than in the UK because pretty much all private schools in the UK have a religious stance. I had to go to church every day but we were only taught about the bible in bible class. All other classes were unhindered by religion.

Do all religious schools in the US teach religion in science class or something?

Quote from: "karadan"Do all religious schools in the US teach religion in science class or something?

Many teach the young earth stuff.  And history gets looked at through the lens of "Well, they weren't Christian, so they lost...or God sent the plague because their behavior was blah blah blah."

But there are so many different Christian sects that it's really difficult to tell what each private religious school will teach and in what subject.  There definitely is a good chance, though, that it won't just be contained to Bible study class.

Quote from: "pinkocommie"If you wanted to find the biggest drug addicts, the craziest thrill seekers or the easiest slut bunnies, you looked for kids in private religious schools.

This is probably a cultural difference.
Schools around here don't let guys looking for slut bunnies in.
I suppose if you had a good story and a tradesmen's outfit you might get in.

Quote from: "The Magic Pudding"

Quote from: "pinkocommie"If you wanted to find the biggest drug addicts, the craziest thrill seekers or the easiest slut bunnies, you looked for kids in private religious schools.

This is probably a cultural difference.
Schools around here don't let guys looking for slut bunnies in.
I suppose if you had a good story and a tradesmen's outfit you might get in.

In my experience it's the 'slut bunnies' getting out that is the problem (https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg34.imageshack.us%2Fimg34%2F2438%2Fheheoc.gif&hash=50cf1131f6316b9f48965cce1bfe1877dc8f90e7)

Quote from: "Tank"

Quote from: "The Magic Pudding"

Quote from: "pinkocommie"If you wanted to find the biggest drug addicts, the craziest thrill seekers or the easiest slut bunnies, you looked for kids in private religious schools.

This is probably a cultural difference.
Schools around here don't let guys looking for slut bunnies in.
I suppose if you had a good story and a tradesmen's outfit you might get in.

In my experience it's the 'slut bunnies' getting out that is the problem (https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg34.imageshack.us%2Fimg34%2F2438%2Fheheoc.gif&hash=50cf1131f6316b9f48965cce1bfe1877dc8f90e7)

Haha exactly.  Also, not only girls and gay men are slut bunnies.  But, it probably is a cultural difference.  I have no idea what religious private schools are like in Australia.

Quote from: "Businessocks"

Quote from: "karadan"Do all religious schools in the US teach religion in science class or something?

Many teach the young earth stuff.  And history gets looked at through the lens of "Well, they weren't Christian, so they lost...or God sent the plague because their behavior was blah blah blah."

You wouldn't get away with that in Australian schools.

It sounds like US and UK private schools are very different to Australian schools.

I have friends who are not particulary religious going to a religious school. They have a morning prayer, but I think that's about it.

Quote from: "Nikky"

Quote from: "Businessocks"

Quote from: "karadan"Do all religious schools in the US teach religion in science class or something?

Many teach the young earth stuff.  And history gets looked at through the lens of "Well, they weren't Christian, so they lost...or God sent the plague because their behavior was blah blah blah."

You wouldn't get away with that in Australian schools.

It sounds like US and UK private schools are very different to Australian schools.

Man, I wish I new of some Australian skeptic parents who might help you out on this, but if you feel comfortable with the school, I wouldn't second guess your instincts too much.  You're going to discover relatively quickly if the school you chose is too religious for you, and if that's the case hopefully public school in that area will suffice until you find a more acceptable alternative.  Good luck, at any rate.  =D

Just wanted to speak up in defense of private schools! I went to a private high school, secular, and even though most girls were very rich, nobody treated the girls on financial aid any differently. After nine years of social misery in public schools, it was the first time in my life nobody tried to make me feel terrible for being smart or weird. I think the single-sex environment was really great, too; I know the stereotypes for all-girls schools, but statistics show on average they are more likely to grow into confident, self-assured women.

As for a religious school, I would definitely consider one over a public school, but of course it depends on the schools. If the school were not overtly religious in every class, and if I was confident my child felt comfortable questioning what he or she was being taught and getting a good dose of skepticism in the home, I might prefer that situation over a private school.

Quote from: "Anthemyst"Just wanted to speak up in defense of private schools! I went to a private high school, secular, and even though most girls were very rich, nobody treated the girls on financial aid any differently. After nine years of social misery in public schools, it was the first time in my life nobody tried to make me feel terrible for being smart or weird. I think the single-sex environment was really great, too; I know the stereotypes for all-girls schools, but statistics show on average they are more likely to grow into confident, self-assured women.

As for a religious school, I would definitely consider one over a public school, but of course it depends on the schools. If the school were not overtly religious in every class, and if I was confident my child felt comfortable questioning what he or she was being taught and getting a good dose of skepticism in the home, I might prefer that situation over a private school.

Hi

Where are you in the world?

Quote from: "Tank"

Quote from: "Anthemyst"Just wanted to speak up in defense of private schools! I went to a private high school, secular, and even though most girls were very rich, nobody treated the girls on financial aid any differently. After nine years of social misery in public schools, it was the first time in my life nobody tried to make me feel terrible for being smart or weird. I think the single-sex environment was really great, too; I know the stereotypes for all-girls schools, but statistics show on average they are more likely to grow into confident, self-assured women.

As for a religious school, I would definitely consider one over a public school, but of course it depends on the schools. If the school were not overtly religious in every class, and if I was confident my child felt comfortable questioning what he or she was being taught and getting a good dose of skepticism in the home, I might prefer that situation over a private school.

Hi

Where are you in the world?

Northern Virginia for high school, but now I'm in Chicago.

I would like to add one or two thoughts to the debate on private versus public education - including religious affiliated schools.  As a college professor and former administrator at a fairly prestigious university in the Southern US, it was my experience that many of the students who attended and graduated from private schools were actually better prepared for college than were those coming from public schools, and here is why I believe that.  First of all, students who attend private schools are there because their parents are paying for this education and therefore, take things a bit more seriously.  Further, private schools can be, and often are, selective, meaning that they sometimes limit their selection to those students who are academically more prepared than those in public schools.  

Having said that, I am a product of public education, I even attended school when the school systems were segregated in the South for the first four years of my education something I am NOT proud of, and I turned out fine.  Well, my wife might argue that point, but she'd be just joking, I think.  Anyway, to the private religious schools, I am totally against them simply because of the religious aspect.  I know I would not want my children exposed to the teaching of the church every day, all day.  However, IF I had little choice, as it seems that you do, I would opt for the school that could prove to me that their science education is consistent with the scientific community's views on evolution and the cosmos.  Then, I would monitor my child's education very closely, which is a good idea in any case, and make sure that my child and I had many discussions on both sides of any and all issues.  In other words, make the best of the situation, using it as a teaching tool for your child.  I believe it will allow her to expand her own understanding of the world around her, and teach her how to distinguish between reality and fantasy.  Just my humble opinion.

I want to add one thing, kind of off topic, but I recently went to a Home Schoolers Convention in Michigan, where home schooling is very popular and there are NO state laws governing what is taught, and I was totally SHOCKED by the number of religious text books that I saw which taught creationism as science.  I leafed through some of the volumes and was amazed at how well they were written, just written wrong.  It was certainly an eye opening experience for me, thankfully my children are grown and educated and I don't have to worry about it, but when they were in school we had many long discussions on religion, freethought, and science.

Quote from: "Anthemyst"

Quote from: "Tank"Hi

Where are you in the world?

Northern Virginia for high school, but now I'm in Chicago.

Cheers, just wanted to know so I could follow which school system you would be working in.

I went to a catholic elementary school and it was ok... we had a religion class in we were taght the Chruch´s tennets, theology, creationism, but then we had a science class and creationism wasn´t taught there; we learned about evolution as a scientifical fact.  Then I went to a millitary high school, and to my taste it seemed more religious than the catholic elementary school I attended, I mean, we were forced to attend mass, which we weren´t in the elementary school, we spent the last hours of the day listening to the school chaplain and went to sleep with an obligatory prayer...we had an obligatory prayer after the rising ofthe flag.  Later in life I went to a catholic university and it seemed ok too... we had theology and Catholic Social Doctrine as part of the obligatory curricula, but the other teachers never brought up the subject of religion... I even remember an anecdote in which a teacher asked the class why do we study spanish colonial laws,  a student answered "because we are a spanisch descendant nation" and the teacher answered "we may be descendants of the monkeys"... only one student complained but nothing was done to the teacher in the university run by a catholic bishop.

Now if you ask me if I would send my son to a boarding catholic school, the answer is NO... I just don´t trust unmarried men who swore chastity.  My boy goes to a secular private school.

My son doesn't go to a religious school, but he does attend a charter school that rents rooms in a church and big events (concerts, plays, awards, etc.) are held in the sanctuary, with all of its religious accoutrements in place.  And there is a huge 6 foot cross hanging high on the wall in the "social hall" (our cafeteria, indoor recess room).  There is a mom's prayer groups that meets in a room that is not used by the school, which rubs me the wrong way, and at one of the meetings (yes, I attended some), the leader of the group (also a parishioner at the church) said, "This is not technically a Christian school, but we all KNOW <wink wink nod> that it IS a Christian school, held here in God's house."  I threw up in my mouth a little.

A few of us have monitored things to be sure flyers for VBS aren't distributed and other church nonsense given to the kids.  It's a constant battle.