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General => Ethics => Topic started by: theradwun on December 31, 2009, 06:35:50 AM

Title: What do atheist think about rape?
Post by: theradwun on December 31, 2009, 06:35:50 AM
What do atheists think about rape?
Title: Re: What do atheist think about rape?
Post by: AlP on December 31, 2009, 06:40:11 AM
Well I've been raped and I'll say that it's really not much fun at all. This question is somewhat vague I think. Is there anything more specific that you would like to know about rape?
Title: Re: What do atheist think about rape?
Post by: SSY on December 31, 2009, 07:28:44 AM
Well, since I know 100% that GOD does not exist, I face no consequences for rape, as long as I kill the victim after, and burn the body. As you can see, there is nothing stopping me from commiting rape, I do it to fill the time between theft and drug taking.


Wait a minute, I think I see what you were trying to do there. . . . .
Title: Re: What do atheist think about rape?
Post by: theradwun on December 31, 2009, 07:40:59 AM
Quote from: "SSY"Well, since I know 100% that GOD does not exist, I face no consequences for rape, as long as I kill the victim after, and burn the body. As you can see, there is nothing stopping me from commiting rape, I do it to fill the time between theft and drug taking.


Wait a minute, I think I see what you were trying to do there. . . . .

First of all, I think you must be grossly arrogant for believing you've discovered the non-existence of God after billions/trillions of people for the past who-knows-how-many thousands of years have been contemplating this question with no definite answers in either direction.

Secondly, I wasn't trying to say that atheists are bad people as you are obviously implying that I'm implying. My point is to point out that it seems strange that we as humans have this idea that rape is "immoral" if it seems be beneficial to our naturalistic purpose.
Title: Re: What do atheist think about rape?
Post by: Ihateyoumike on December 31, 2009, 07:46:03 AM
Quote from: "theradwun"First of all, I think you must be grossly arrogant for believing you've discovered the non-existence of God after billions/trillions of people for the past who-knows-how-many thousands of years have been contemplating this question with no definite answers in either direction.

What??

Quote from: "theradwun"Secondly, I wasn't trying to say that atheists are bad people as you are obviously implying that I'm implying. My point is to point out that it seems strange that we as humans have this idea that rape is "immoral" if it seems be beneficial to our naturalistic purpose.

Wait... What?!??
Title: Re: What do atheist think about rape?
Post by: theradwun on December 31, 2009, 07:59:06 AM
Quote from: "Ihateyoumike"
Quote from: "theradwun"First of all, I think you must be grossly arrogant for believing you've discovered the non-existence of God after billions/trillions of people for the past who-knows-how-many thousands of years have been contemplating this question with no definite answers in either direction.

What??

Quote from: "theradwun"Secondly, I wasn't trying to say that atheists are bad people as you are obviously implying that I'm implying. My point is to point out that it seems strange that we as humans have this idea that rape is "immoral" if it seems be beneficial to our naturalistic purpose.

Wait... What?!??

Ok I don't care about the first one.  What's confusing about the second one because I seriously am interested in discussing it?

I'll try to clarify.  It seems that if we are a product of evolution/nature, then the main goal of humanity is to survive and continue surviving... if I'm wrong correct me.  If I rape a girl, she gets pregnant, another human is made.  What is wrong with this? (this is a serious question, if you want to be pissy about thinking i'm a covert christian trying to prove atheists are scumbags don't waste your time, i'm tired of christian/atheist whining.)
Title: Re: What do atheist think about rape?
Post by: Ihateyoumike on December 31, 2009, 08:20:02 AM
Quote from: "theradwun"I'll try to clarify.  It seems that if we are a product of evolution/nature, then the main goal of humanity is to survive and continue surviving...

Sounds good so far.

Quote from: "theradwun"If I rape a girl, she gets pregnant, another human is made.  What is wrong with this? (this is a serious question, if you want to be pissy about thinking i'm a covert christian trying to prove atheists are scumbags don't waste your time, i'm tired of christian/atheist whining.)

I'm truly stumped. How many times can the same questions be asked of us atheists as if we were a religion that dictated how all of us should think.

As an atheist, I don't believe in a creator/deity/higher power/supernatural entity. Anything beyond that is simply a matter of my own opinion.

What do I, as a human being, think of rape? It's wrong. Why? Because. That should be a more than sufficient answer for you.
Unless, of course, there was an ulterior motive in posing the question specifically to atheists...

Also... Rape a girl... she becomes pregnant... it's beneficial?? Where did you come up with this gem? Are you really suggesting that it is common for a rapist to gently rape a girl so as to not cause harm, and that a child is produced from every rape? Really? I mean... Really?!? I'm sorry, but this is just asinine.  :upset:
Title: Re: What do atheist think about rape?
Post by: AlP on December 31, 2009, 08:20:28 AM
Quote from: "theradwun"First of all, I think you must be grossly arrogant for believing you've discovered the non-existence of God after billions/trillions of people for the past who-knows-how-many thousands of years have been contemplating this question with no definite answers in either direction.

Secondly, I wasn't trying to say that atheists are bad people as you are obviously implying that I'm implying. My point is to point out that it seems strange that we as humans have this idea that rape is "immoral" if it seems be beneficial to our naturalistic purpose.
Sensitively put. I do not find it strange that some humans, such as myself, find rape immoral. It really is progress. Now lets change the societies where rape is not immoral (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/in-the-name-of-god-the-saudi-rape-victims-tale-760847.html). Then we can start talk about being anything other than animals.

Sorry, this is a soft spot or me. Usually I go ballistic. Got it under control :)
Title: Re: What do atheist think about rape?
Post by: Will on December 31, 2009, 08:36:48 AM
Sex requires knowing consent. Pedophilia, necrophilia, bestiality, and rape are all lacking knowing consent, therefore are all violations of what I consider to be moral or ethical behavior.
Title: Re: What do atheist think about rape?
Post by: leonswan2000 on December 31, 2009, 08:44:06 AM
Animals sometimes force sex [rape] in nature. This is rare and usualy means a gender is in short supply. {yes its always the female.] I dont rape because I'm not into traumatizing someone for a vicarious pleasure. Besides jacking off is easier.
Title: Re: What do atheist think about rape?
Post by: AlP on December 31, 2009, 09:23:50 AM
Quote from: "leonswan2000"Animals sometimes force sex [rape] in nature. This is rare and usualy means a gender is in short supply. {yes its always the female.]
I think that needs some fact checking.
Quote from: "leonswan2000"I dont rape because I'm not into traumatizing someone for a vicarious pleasure.
Good for you.
Quote from: "leonswan2000"Besides jacking off is easier.
Amen.
Title: Re: What do atheist think about rape?
Post by: leonswan2000 on December 31, 2009, 02:28:47 PM
Quote from: "AlP"
Quote from: "leonswan2000"Animals sometimes force sex [rape] in nature. This is rare and usualy means a gender is in short supply. {yes its always the female.]
I think that needs some fact checking.
Quote from: "leonswan2000"I dont rape because I'm not into traumatizing someone for a vicarious pleasure.
Good for you.
Quote from: "leonswan2000"Besides jacking off is easier.
Amen.
Ive watced two ducks hold down a female while they all had there way. I am not kidding or lying. I'll bet other people here who have worked around animals can colaborate. I mean the ducks didnt do it because they had a bad upbringing or duck peer presure.
Title: Re: What do atheist think about rape?
Post by: theradwun on December 31, 2009, 03:28:09 PM
you guys are pathetic.  it was a serious question in the philosophy forum.  my question is why we evolved into moral beings, especially if the moral development seems contrary to our purpose.  i was assuming that a naturalist's thought must be that we developed these morals... naturally... because it was beneficial to our survival.  i chose one instance that seemed out of place in that purpose.  for example, why is murder wrong, well obviously if we all kill each other we won't survive.  why is good to help people, well because we'll all become stronger.  these are morals that would make sense to me.

no ulterior motives, please get over it.

I'll admit that when I asked the plain question "what do atheists think about rape?", it probably looked like a facetious question.  i should have elaborated when I asked it, I just wasn't thinking.  I usually start conversations with one simple question to see where it goes.
Title: Re: What do atheist think about rape?
Post by: Kylyssa on December 31, 2009, 04:23:53 PM
Quote from: "theradwun"I'll admit that when I asked the plain question "what do atheists think about rape?", it probably looked like a facetious question.  i should have elaborated when I asked it, I just wasn't thinking.  I usually start conversations with one simple question to see where it goes.

You question looked exactly like the question asked by the Christian fundy nutball that threatened to rape and kill me a couple of months ago is what it looks like.

In some societies some forms of rape are considered moral.  Many Christians in South Africa, for instance, support what is called corrective rape.  Corrective rape is the raping of lesbian women to teach them a lesson.  Police will not arrest the rapists nor will the legal system prosecute it as a crime.

Since most atheists don't believe in the ideological arguments that defend rape, I'd guess that a slightly lower percentage of atheists are cool with rape than religious folk are.

As to why humans tend to find rape wrong - humans (and many other primates, possibly other mammals as well) possess an emotional quality known as empathy.  We evolved it because we are social animals, pack animals.  Humans are slow, weak, and lack adequate natural defenses so we evolved needing to protect each other.  Using empathy combined with reason we come to the conclusion that it's wrong to hurt other people.  But our society didn't evolve to the point where most people think rape is wrong until relatively recently. This is probably because, until recently in human history, many societies considered women to be property, to be used however their owner pleases.
Title: Re: What do atheist think about rape?
Post by: theradwun on December 31, 2009, 04:25:50 PM
Quote from: "AlP"
Quote from: "theradwun"First of all, I think you must be grossly arrogant for believing you've discovered the non-existence of God after billions/trillions of people for the past who-knows-how-many thousands of years have been contemplating this question with no definite answers in either direction.

Secondly, I wasn't trying to say that atheists are bad people as you are obviously implying that I'm implying. My point is to point out that it seems strange that we as humans have this idea that rape is "immoral" if it seems be beneficial to our naturalistic purpose.
Sensitively put. I do not find it strange that some humans, such as myself, find rape immoral. It really is progress. Now lets change the societies where rape is not immoral (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/in-the-name-of-god-the-saudi-rape-victims-tale-760847.html). Then we can start talk about being anything other than animals.

Sorry, this is a soft spot or me. Usually I go ballistic. Got it under control :)

How are we not animals?
Title: Re: What do atheist think about rape?
Post by: OldGit on December 31, 2009, 05:48:52 PM
Why do humans tend to be monogamous?  It's because if the father sticks around, the offspring will have a better chance of surviving.  If the male impregnates multiple partners, the offspring will not have that advantage - on the other hand if he does it a lot, his genes will tend to get through.  In fact, our behaviour suggests we often try to get away with both strategies at once.
Given that, some males are going to want to rape a female  if they can get away with it.
As to the moral objection in most societies, it seems to me that's just a part of general natural morality: not mistreating people.
Title: Re: What do atheist think about rape?
Post by: McQ on December 31, 2009, 05:52:33 PM
Quote from: "theradwun"you guys are pathetic.  it was a serious question in the philosophy forum.  my question is why we evolved into moral beings, especially if the moral development seems contrary to our purpose.  i was assuming that a naturalist's thought must be that we developed these morals... naturally... because it was beneficial to our survival.  i chose one instance that seemed out of place in that purpose.  for example, why is murder wrong, well obviously if we all kill each other we won't survive.  why is good to help people, well because we'll all become stronger.  these are morals that would make sense to me.

no ulterior motives, please get over it.

I'll admit that when I asked the plain question "what do atheists think about rape?", it probably looked like a facetious question.  i should have elaborated when I asked it, I just wasn't thinking.  I usually start conversations with one simple question to see where it goes.

Who guys are pathetic? You admit you started this off with a question that looked like a facetious one, then get angry and start insulting people for thinking you were a christian troll. Next time, why don't you just ask the question you really want to ask in the first place and be clear? Then we won't have to waste time because you weren't specific.

And the question still looks loaded because you ask what atheists think about rape, implying that ALL atheists think alike on it. One does not follow the other. The only thing atheists all believe (and even this is up to a wide range of mini-beliefs) is no god(s). Your question is like asking what atheists' favorite flavor of ice cream is.
Title: Re: What do atheist think about rape?
Post by: Whitney on December 31, 2009, 06:06:58 PM
Quote from: "theradwun"you guys are pathetic.  it was a serious question in the philosophy forum.
If you want serious answers ask questions that consist of more than a vague question.  If you are an atheist you should be more than aware that idiot Christians constantly ask questions like yours because they think that atheists will somehow view rape differently from any other normal person.

If you call everyone pathetic again or use any other needless derogatory language you will start getting official warnings for it.

Quotemy question is why we evolved into moral beings, especially if the moral development seems contrary to our purpose.

If that was your question it should have been in the OP.

Quotei was assuming that a naturalist's thought must be that we developed these morals... naturally... because it was beneficial to our survival.

Not all atheists are naturalists....but yes, people who accept reality for what it is think everything has a natural cause.

Quotei chose one instance that seemed out of place in that purpose.
Only if you disregard that it is not productive for a pack society to have half of their pack living in fear of rape.

Quoteno ulterior motives, please get over it.

If you want people to not take what you say the wrong way learn how to express yourself more clearly.

QuoteI'll admit that when I asked the plain question "what do atheists think about rape?", it probably looked like a facetious question.  i should have elaborated when I asked it, I just wasn't thinking.  I usually start conversations with one simple question to see where it goes.

Well, now you know not to be so vague....it still was not appropriate for you to throw a hissy fit when others couldn't read your mind.
Title: Re: What do atheist think about rape?
Post by: leonswan2000 on January 02, 2010, 01:08:39 AM
Quote from: "theradwun"you guys are pathetic. I dont think this is worth a warning but not very diplomatic for someone who is trying to be so clinical. it was a serious question in the philosophy forum.  my question is why we evolved into moral beings, Perhaps its as easy as if someone raped me that would be terrible so I'm not going to do it to somebody. Oviously this doesnt work for people we consider to have mental problems but that is another topic especially if the moral development seems contrary to our purpose. what? why? i was assuming that a naturalist's thought must be that we developed these morals... naturally... because it was beneficial to our survival.wich came first the chicken or the egg.  i chose one instance that seemed out of place in that purpose.a good example. Gets people pasionate.  for example, why is murder wrong, well obviously if we all kill each other we won't survive.  why is good to help people, well because we'll all become stronger.  these are morals that would make sense to me.

no ulterior motives, please get over it.

I'll admit that when I asked the plain question "what do atheists think about rape?", it probably looked like a facetious question.  i should have elaborated when I asked it, I just wasn't thinking.  I usually start conversations with one simple question to see where it goes.
Again I think most of us dont do to others what we dont want done to us. However almost all people are capable of forgetting morals ethics if told its OK by someone in authority.[war] Very few people stick to there morals with peer pressure. This is simplified, You shust need to read some of the test results on morals in human behaviour.
Title: Re: What do atheist think about rape?
Post by: templeboy on January 02, 2010, 02:04:38 AM
Quote from: "theradwun"Secondly, I wasn't trying to say that atheists are bad people as you are obviously implying that I'm implying. My point is to point out that it seems strange that we as humans have this idea that rape is "immoral" if it seems be beneficial to our naturalistic purpose.

I've quoted this a lot recently, because it sums up the humanist position on morality so well

Quote from: "Richard Dawkins in The Devils Chaplain"Stand tall, Bipedal Ape. The shark may outswim you, the cheetah outrun you, the swift outfly you, the capuchin outclimb you, the elephant outpower you, the redwood outlast you. But you have the biggest gifts of all: the gift of understanding the ruthlessly cruel process that gave us all existence; the gift of revulsion against its implications; the gift of foresightâ€"something utterly foreign to the blundering short-term ways of natural selectionâ€"and the gift of internalising the very cosmos.

As creatures of foresight and reason, we are capable of rising above our evolutionary heritage. Rape is wrong because it is hurtful and unconsenting- it impinges on our rights and liberties. This view is reached quite reasonably is a secular system of ethics.
Title: Re: What do atheist think about rape?
Post by: leonswan2000 on January 02, 2010, 02:40:10 AM
Getting back to the original question. I dont think as you said rape would be a natualistic way to propagate. If only the male recieved pleasure from sex this would peobably be so. That most....some........a few...... no most women enjoy sex also means there is no reason to force sex. On morality I think people have taken views on rape as dictated by a paticular society. Manys religeons and govenmental polocies shrugged there shoulders at rape. However even in societies where rape wasnt prosecuted very few men did it. There are exceptions of course. I think it is still very simple. I dont treat others how I would not want to be treated. That is natural not learned. The thought of forcing sex on a person [men get raped a lot too] while that person is in pain and mental torment is naturaly abhorent to a normal person. Yes there are a lot of men that would and will rape without conciense, but if you were to examine these men you would find a lot more mental ambiguities and illness than in what we consider healthy or normal. Could a normal man be driven to rape. Yes just as he could to learn kill. Is it natural? Would a normal man in a normal enviornment rape if it was his only way to achieve sex with a women? Not me. [trust me] If the leader of the pack told you to do it or you were a not a man and your life revolved around raping and pillaging I think that would be a learned behaviour also. This is my philosophy [mostly] so I know its relavince is only trivial.
Title: Re: What do atheist think about rape?
Post by: Ihateusernames on January 02, 2010, 07:01:06 AM
Quote from: "templeboy"
Quote from: "theradwun"I've quoted this a lot recently, because it sums up the humanist position on morality so well

Quote from: "Richard Dawkins in The Devils Chaplain"Stand tall, Bipedal Ape. The shark may outswim you, the cheetah outrun you, the swift outfly you, the capuchin outclimb you, the elephant outpower you, the redwood outlast you. But you have the biggest gifts of all: the gift of understanding the ruthlessly cruel process that gave us all existence; the gift of revulsion against its implications; the gift of foresightâ€"something utterly foreign to the blundering short-term ways of natural selectionâ€"and the gift of internalising the very cosmos.

As creatures of foresight and reason, we are capable of rising above our evolutionary heritage.

And this is exactly why I disagree with humanist's position on morality.  to sum up the sum up, Humanism's morality says "We *can*, therefor we *should* rise above 'evil' actions."  

If you don't see how pointless a statement like that is in explaining morality, I'll graciously explain it.  Yes, we *can* (hah.. Barack Obama!) rise above evil actions, but to say it follows from that we *should* is a gigantic logical fallacy (dang that pesky non sequitur, eh?).  I *can* murder you, does that also mean I *should*?  I *can* drug you, tie you down, wait till you wake up, and then slowly eat you starting with the toes and moving my way upwards whenever I get hungry until you perish, does that mean I *should*?  obviously not, therefor Humanism's "I *can* rise above 'evil' actions" absolutely does NOT mean I *should*.

Meh Ethical Nihilism, although a lot more distasteful when you dwell on it is absolutely more logical than Humanism.  Also, some sort of theistic bases for morality (eg: a deep duty (*snickers*) to a higher being's requests) makes more sense than Humanism's morality.

-Ihateusernames
Title: Re: What do atheist think about rape?
Post by: templeboy on January 02, 2010, 09:28:01 AM
Quote from: "Ihateusernames"And this is exactly why I disagree with humanist's position on morality.  to sum up the sum up, Humanism's morality says "We *can*, therefor we *should* rise above 'evil' actions."  

If you don't see how pointless a statement like that is in explaining morality, I'll graciously explain it.  Yes, we *can* (hah.. Barack Obama!) rise above evil actions, but to say it follows from that we *should* is a gigantic logical fallacy (dang that pesky non sequitur, eh?).  I *can* murder you, does that also mean I *should*?  I *can* drug you, tie you down, wait till you wake up, and then slowly eat you starting with the toes and moving my way upwards whenever I get hungry until you perish, does that mean I *should*?  obviously not, therefor Humanism's "I *can* rise above 'evil' actions" absolutely does NOT mean I *should*.

Meh Ethical Nihilism, although a lot more distasteful when you dwell on it is absolutely more logical than Humanism.  Also, some sort of theistic bases for morality (eg: a deep duty (*snickers*) to a higher being's requests) makes more sense than Humanism's morality.

-Ihateusernames

With respect, I think that is a misrepresentation. You say

QuoteHumanism's morality says "We *can*, therefor we *should*

And then you proceed to quite rightly expose this statement as fallicious, but the initial premise is a straw-man of humanism. Humanistic philosophy is based (and I admit that I do not speak for all that identify as humanist, but this is what it means to me) on certain goals, for instance the continued well-being of mankind, of fairness and justice and equal opportunity, on prevalence of rational, logical and empirical approach to issues...so something that can be done, such as rape, murder, helping an old lady cross the road, donating to a charity, is not done because it can be done, but because it conforms to the humanist goals, and, broadly speaking, that is how from a humanist point of view we define right or wrong.
Title: Re: What do atheist think about rape?
Post by: LARA on January 02, 2010, 03:08:53 PM
Creatures have developed various strategies to court, mate and procreate.  They vary among members of the animal kingdom, from very base, such as the penis fencing of hermaphroditic flatworms to complex, such as the courtship process of deer and elk or the very psychological bonding process that is human courtship. We have evolved these elaborate courtships for a reason, to make sure both parents are healthy enough to bear offspring and raise it until it can survive on it's own.  Rape violates this process.  It destroys the courtship rituals that evolved in a species to allow for the best mate choice to take place. If there is nothing preventing a male from raping a female, there is also nothing forcing her to take care of herself during pregnancy, care for the baby, etc.  If a female isn't ready for procreation, there isn't much forcing it if you need her mentally and physically able to care for the offspring.  Just because something does occur sometimes, doesn't mean it's a good thing.
Title: Re: What do atheist think about rape?
Post by: AlP on January 02, 2010, 03:18:19 PM
I'm a member of the American Humanist Association. I'm not a Humanist though; it's just my way of supporting the war on Christmas. lol

The "official" Humanist position on ethics is this:

Quote from: "Humanist Manifesto III"Ethical values are derived from human need and interest as tested by experience. Humanists ground values in human welfare shaped by human circumstances, interests, and concerns and extended to the global ecosystem and beyond. We are committed to treating each person as having inherent worth and dignity, and to making informed choices in a context of freedom consonant with responsibility.

I admit that they do just kind of pull ethics out of a hat and say "tada!" In defense of Humanism though, I don't think one needs to justify ethics with some kind of deductive argument like "we can therefore we should", which of course doesn't follow. I don't know of a single world view that can justify ethics with a sound deductive argument and making a special case that Humanism must do so needs justification.

The nihilist view is that there are no inherent ethical values therefore ethical action cannot be logically justified. I used to call myself a nihilist but realized that I was behaving suspiciously like an ethical person, despite my inability to find premises to form an argument to justify it. It seems a bit silly now. I think the problem is we are all forced to make ethical value judgments. It doesn't matter that there are no inherent ethical values. Ethical values don't have to be inherent in nature. The made up ones are working pretty well, though there is room for improvement.

Valuing human welfare, interests and concerns and respecting human dignity works for me. The Humanist idea of all humans having inherent worth is cynical and I don't agree with it. Worth what to whom?

Are we still talking about rape? Rape is disrespectful, traumatizing, invasive and harmful. This is not rocket science.
Title: Re: What do atheist think about rape?
Post by: curiosityandthecat on January 02, 2010, 08:04:17 PM
I'm confused... why would your position on the existence or non-existence of a deity have any bearing on whether or not you believe forcing someone to engage in sexual acts is ethical? This simply boils down to that old "If there were no god, all would be permitted" argument that has been ground to dust many times over, both here and elsewhere.

Atheists think the same thing about rape that everyone should think about rape: it's wrong. Why? Because it degrades the victim as something "less than." All we have is our humanity, after all; remove that and we are nothing.

The idea that one could use a question like this as a barometer for the ethical nature of someone is akin to asking "Do you think cheese is bad for you?" and using the answer to determine the acceptability of cattle domestication.

In as far as rape being an option for the continuation of a species, that's flawed. Rape, in and of itself, is an act of violence and no species can survive on a system based on that violence just to procreate. (And before anybody says praying mantis, that's not rape.)
Title: Re: What do atheist think about rape?
Post by: G-Roll on January 02, 2010, 08:08:54 PM
i always thought rape was more of a power thing rather than sexual. being able to take what you want... and most people want sex. i say people because ive met many a guy who was rapped by a female. they pass out drunk and kind of wake up to some one they want nothing to do with grinding on top of them.

and what ever happened to the golden rule? dont do something to someone that you wouldnt want done to you. it sounds like a simple answer to me. rape sucks.... dont do it.
Title: Re: What do atheist think about rape?
Post by: curiosityandthecat on January 02, 2010, 08:10:16 PM
Quote from: "G-Roll"i say people because ive met many a guy who was rapped by a female. they pass out drunk and kind of wake up to some one they want nothing to do with grinding on top of them.

Right here. Though, to be fair, it changed my mind and we did date for a couple years after that night.  :blush:
Title: Re: What do atheist think about rape?
Post by: Ihateusernames on January 02, 2010, 08:38:33 PM
Quote from: "templeboy"With respect, I think that is a misrepresentation. You say

QuoteHumanism's morality says "We *can*, therefor we *should*

And then you proceed to quite rightly expose this statement as fallicious, but the initial premise is a straw-man of humanism. Humanistic philosophy is based (and I admit that I do not speak for all that identify as humanist, but this is what it means to me) on certain goals, for instance the continued well-being of mankind, of fairness and justice and equal opportunity, on prevalence of rational, logical and empirical approach to issues...so something that can be done, such as rape, murder, helping an old lady cross the road, donating to a charity, is not done because it can be done, but because it conforms to the humanist goals, and, broadly speaking, that is how from a humanist point of view we define right or wrong.

Also with respect, I'm not exactly sure how it is a straw man of Humanism.  Please explain.

Yes, I admit Humanism is based on goals.  You have to remember though, so is everything else.  Isn't the point of an ethical stance is to give a *reason* that the goals a system is based on are 'good' or 'ethical' (ie rape is atrocious to link it to this thread)?  Saying "I have x, y, and z as goals" isn't a very good support for why x, y, and z are 'good'.

honestly, IMO even your post is basically "I can therefor I should" logic.  I *can* hold those Humanistic goals as good, but does it lead deductively to I *should* hold them as good? I think not.  If it does, let me ask you about the sociopath, or the murderer, or the theft.  They all have goals.  The sociopaths have the goal of doing whatever they want, the murderers have the goal of killing whomever they want, the thieves have the goal of stealing whatever they want.  Under humanistic logic it would be absolutely UNethical for someone with a murderous bent to NOT kill as it violets their 'goals', and the thief to NOT steal as it violates their 'goals'...etc.   I hope you can see what I'm getting at.  If it is unethical to violate humanistic goals, then its unethical to violate whatever goals you hold, no matter how stupid and obviously despicable they are (ie the rapist.)  

If this is still a straw-man in your eyes, I'm sorry but you will have to be kind enough to me to thoroughly explain how.


Quote from: "AlP"I don't know of a single world view that can justify ethics with a sound deductive argument and making a special case that Humanism must do so needs justification.

I disagree, I personally think ethical nihilism is sound in its ethical theory--It just happens to be so absolutely unlivable that it strikes me as practically asinine.  I also think a theistic argument for ethics is sound.  The reasons for disregarding theistic morality are based purely on squabbles over premises, not the fact the argument isn't deductive.  If one accepts the assumption of a God, then morals very well might rest in following that God's requests,  however if there is no God, their isn't even an argument for theistic morals, obviously.

Quote from: "AlP"Valuing human welfare, interests and concerns and respecting human dignity works for me.
I also agree it works for me in a practical way (day to day), what bothers me is that I recognize I have a higher intellect than a vast majority of the population, more education, and a scheming mind.  This posses the problem of being easily able to legally scam idiotic old people out of all their money for my own gain.  And honestly, I can't figure out a non-theistic based ethical 'reason' for not benefiting from someone else's suffering.  As long as it is legal, shouldn't it be permissible? Why value human welfare, interests and concerns when it doesn't further my selfish desires? Meh...

Quote from: "AlP"Are we still talking about rape? Rape is disrespectful, traumatizing, invasive and harmful. This is not rocket science.

Pardon my thread highjacking, but it was intentional as I'd rather not talk about rape as it is too personal an issue for myself.  to the OP:  If you want to put on your Philosophic thinking cap, pick murder, theft, or something else as object lessons for your points.  They work exactly the same.  Rape is just too personal a subject for too many people.

-Ihateusernames
Title: Re: What do atheist think about rape?
Post by: Whitney on January 02, 2010, 08:53:46 PM
Quote from: "Ihateusernames"Also with respect, I'm not exactly sure how it is a straw man of Humanism.  Please explain.

Because the humanist view is not "we can therefore we should" it's more like we understand that morality has developed for the betterment of humankind and for the sake of our own good we ought to be ethical.

At least that's my understanding...I can't say I see much of a difference between humanism and ethical egoism; it's kinda like if you combined ethical egoism with social contract theory.  I'm not really sure that the Humanist Manifesto is meant to be an ethical defense anyway...I think it's just a list of moral goals that could arguably be supported by existing ethics theories like the ones I mentioned above.  Perhaps they list justification somewhere in the humanist manifesto...I admit I got bored reading it and didn't finish or if I did finish I don't remember much of it in detail.
Title: Re: What do atheist think about rape?
Post by: AlP on January 02, 2010, 08:58:58 PM
Quote from: "Ihateusernames"I disagree, I personally think ethical nihilism is sound in its ethical theory--It just happens to be so absolutely unlivable that it strikes me as practically asinine.  I also think a theistic argument for ethics is sound.  The reasons for disregarding theistic morality are based purely on squabbles over premises, not the fact the argument isn't deductive.  If one accepts the assumption of a God, then morals very well might rest in following that God's requests,  however if there is no God, their isn't even an argument for theistic morals, obviously.
I meant a sound deductive argument, which means the argument must be valid and its premises true.

Ethical nihilism is a sound argument but does not justify moral behavior, it justifies doing nothing because there is no reason to do anything.

Theism might have a valid argument based on certain premises about the existence of God and what He wants and suchlike but there is debate about whether the premises are true.

Quote from: "Ihateusernames"I also agree it works for me in a practical way (day to day), what bothers me is that I recognize I have a higher intellect than a vast majority of the population, more education, and a scheming mind. This posses the problem of being easily able to legally scam idiotic old people out of all their money for my own gain. And honestly, I can't figure out a non-theistic based ethical 'reason' for not benefiting from someone else's suffering.
I don't need a reason to act morally. I know what I want to do and what I want to be responsible for. This is how I look at responsibility. "One's responsibility" can be used to mean "what one should do" or it can be used to mean "what one has done". I prefer the latter; it gets rid of the troublesome "should". Then in making moral decisions, it's a case of taking a course of action that I hope will lead to "what I have done" being something I am proud of.

Quote from: "Ihateusernames"As long as it is legal, shouldn't it be permissible? Why value human welfare, interests and concerns when it doesn't further my selfish desires? Meh...
Why does law have any more logical force than morality? If you are willing to break whatever moral rules you like to get what you want, why not also the law?
Title: Re: What do atheist think about rape?
Post by: SSY on January 03, 2010, 01:34:17 AM
Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"I
In as far as rape being an option for the continuation of a species, that's flawed. Rape, in and of itself, is an act of violence and no species can survive on a system based on that violence just to procreate. (And before anybody says praying mantis, that's not rape.)


According to wiki, there are some species of diving beetle that only reproduce through rape, I can't see any reason why rape would be prohibited as the only means of "courtship", sure, there are other, perhaps more generally useful ways of reproduction, but rape is one way in which to pass on genes, and we all know evolution can throw out a mad one every now and again. Loads of species have frequent violent interactions with each other, and they seem to survive. Could you elaborate on why you think a rape only form of procreation is not viable?

Also. why don't you post any more? :verysad:  :verysad:
Title: Re: What do atheist think about rape?
Post by: curiosityandthecat on January 03, 2010, 02:07:56 AM
Quote from: "SSY"According to wiki, there are some species of diving beetle that only reproduce through rape, I can't see any reason why rape would be prohibited as the only means of "courtship", sure, there are other, perhaps more generally useful ways of reproduction, but rape is one way in which to pass on genes, and we all know evolution can throw out a mad one every now and again. Loads of species have frequent violent interactions with each other, and they seem to survive. Could you elaborate on why you think a rape only form of procreation is not viable?
I suppose I wasn't taking into account lower-level organisms like beetles. I suppose in my mind I consider rape to be a by-product of a take-all-and-damn-the-consequences mindset that, if applied to other aspects of a species' existence would likely end up developing a number of traits that are opposed to sustainability. I also equate rape with a lack of stick-to-it-iveness on behalf of the raper (is that the right word? hah), leaving the rapee with child and without a support system. The genes of the raper are passed on to that child, creating (likely) more members of that species with the same tendency. If the rapee/mother overcomes this and raises the young on her own, I suppose it could compensate. Still, violent sex isn't exactly rape. Look at BSDM.  :verysad:  :verysad:[/quote]
I graduated from my Master's program that dealt with religion and I suppose it's just out of sight, out of mind. Now I'm doing a Ph.D with video games at the center of my research, so instead of reading journals on religiosity it's journals on new media and gaming. I still pop up now and then to leave snarky remarks and questionable pictures, though.  :D
Title: Re: What do atheist think about rape?
Post by: templeboy on January 03, 2010, 02:18:32 AM
Quote from: "Ihateusernames"Also with respect, I'm not exactly sure how it is a straw man of Humanism.  Please explain.

Yes, I admit Humanism is based on goals.  You have to remember though, so is everything else.  Isn't the point of an ethical stance is to give a *reason* that the goals a system is based on are 'good' or 'ethical' (ie rape is atrocious to link it to this thread)?  Saying "I have x, y, and z as goals" isn't a very good support for why x, y, and z are 'good'.

honestly, IMO even your post is basically "I can therefor I should" logic.  I *can* hold those Humanistic goals as good, but does it lead deductively to I *should* hold them as good? I think not.  If it does, let me ask you about the sociopath, or the murderer, or the theft.  They all have goals.  The sociopaths have the goal of doing whatever they want, the murderers have the goal of killing whomever they want, the thieves have the goal of stealing whatever they want.  Under humanistic logic it would be absolutely UNethical for someone with a murderous bent to NOT kill as it violets their 'goals', and the thief to NOT steal as it violates their 'goals'...etc.   I hope you can see what I'm getting at.  If it is unethical to violate humanistic goals, then its unethical to violate whatever goals you hold, no matter how stupid and obviously despicable they are (ie the rapist.)  

If this is still a straw-man in your eyes, I'm sorry but you will have to be kind enough to me to thoroughly explain how.

This cuts to the core of humanism, and indeed one of the critisisms of humanism, namely that it is overty "human centered," even "specisist." Humanism might have goals, but if these goals are arbitary in basis, then any entire ethical system derived from it is also arbitary.

But I think to a certain extent, this arbitrariness is acceptable. Where of course it is not acceptable is where universal goals in an ethical system are subordinated to an individuals goals and values. Then we get the situation you describe, where a sociapaths, a murders, a rapists goals are used to justify their actions. Someone else mentioned the "golden rule," do unto others as you would have them do unto you, and the point of this golden rule is that we must not discriminate between individuals on arbitary grounds. Of course that implies that we should not discriminate between blacks and whites, males and females, unless the differences between said people are non-arbitary and universalisable . The same goes for selfishness; there is no non-arbitary, universalistic difference between myself and another individual; hence I should be at least as kind towards other people as I would expect them to be towards me.

(Basically, the golden rule is a way of saying "you're not special. stop acting as though you are.")

So on the broad scale, humanistic ethics is arbitary, in the same sense that all human endeavor is ultimately futile and irrelevant to the fate of the universe. Recognising that morality is a product, a property, of culture, humanistic ethics seeks to prevent arbitary distinction between individuals on this level. And the goals of humanism are thus those goals which conform to the universalisable model of discrimination, and (this is the arbitary and thus contentious part) those that seek to improve the human condition generally)

Ergo the main arbitary part of humanism is that it seeks to do good. That can only be explained by human nature; and that is explained by cultural and genetic evolution.
Title: Re: What do atheist think about rape?
Post by: Ihateusernames on January 03, 2010, 07:18:55 AM
Quote from: "AlP"I meant a sound deductive argument, which means the argument must be valid and its premises true.

Ethical nihilism is a sound argument but does not justify moral behavior, it justifies doing nothing because there is no reason to do anything.

Theism might have a valid argument based on certain premises about the existence of God and what He wants and suchlike but there is debate about whether the premises are true.
Ethical nihilism does justify doing whatever the heck you want (even if it is normally held as "evil"), however at the moment isn't this the only sound atheistic deductive moral theory that makes any philosophical sense?

also, you are right, theistic morality may be a sound deductive argument, but the soundness is for another conversation.  I should have been paid more attention to my terminology! : )

Quote from: "AlP"I don't need a reason to act morally. I know what I want to do and what I want to be responsible for. This is how I look at responsibility. "One's responsibility" can be used to mean "what one should do" or it can be used to mean "what one has done". I prefer the latter; it gets rid of the troublesome "should". Then in making moral decisions, it's a case of taking a course of action that I hope will lead to "what I have done" being something I am proud of.
I agree that people don't need a reason to act morally.  Even most ethical nihilists are generally moral, after all.  However, if there is no underlying reason as to what makes some behaviors 'good' and some 'bad' then when you run into someone who acts evil, does it really boil down to a "well that's your personal preference" to you?  If you want to be able to condemn that person's actions as evil philosophically speaking you are required to have a reason(s) that make your personal opinions of what is 'good' more valid than what they believe is 'good' (ie their evil actions) else the conflict becomes as valid as an argument about how "strawberry is more tasty than blueberry"--purely subjective.  

Let me ask you this, do you really condemn the topic of this thread purely on a personal taste basis of "well I hate it", or do you condemn it absolutely, universally, and throughout all time and cultural norms in any situation ever?  I personally choose the latter.

Quote from: "Ihateusernames"As long as it is legal, shouldn't it be permissible? Why value human welfare, interests and concerns when it doesn't further my selfish desires? Meh...
Quote from: "AlP"Why does law have any more logical force than morality? If you are willing to break whatever moral rules you like to get what you want, why not also the law?
I should have been more clear.  That was my ethical nihilistic side talking.  Assuming ethical nihilism, obviously the only deterrent to any behavior would be punishment.  If its against the law, I risk punishment.  If it isn't it against the law it would be foolish of me to not engage in a behavior that benefits me even if it does cause others to suffer.   (I may be odd, but it really isn't hard to turn off my empathy switch when dealing with strangers :secret:)

So behaving against the law isn't 'immoral' to my ethical nihilistic side, its just risky--sometimes tooooo risky.

-Ihateusernames
Title: Re: What do atheist think about rape?
Post by: Ihateusernames on January 03, 2010, 07:33:56 AM
Quote from: "templeboy"This cuts to the core of humanism, and indeed one of the critisisms of humanism, namely that it is overty "human centered," even "specisist." Humanism might have goals, but if these goals are arbitary in basis, then any entire ethical system derived from it is also arbitary.

But I think to a certain extent, this arbitrariness is acceptable. Where of course it is not acceptable is where universal goals in an ethical system are subordinated to an individuals goals and values. Then we get the situation you describe, where a sociapaths, a murders, a rapists goals are used to justify their actions. Someone else mentioned the "golden rule," do unto others as you would have them do unto you, and the point of this golden rule is that we must not discriminate between individuals on arbitary grounds. Of course that implies that we should not discriminate between blacks and whites, males and females, unless the differences between said people are non-arbitary and universalisable . The same goes for selfishness; there is no non-arbitary, universalistic difference between myself and another individual; hence I should be at least as kind towards other people as I would expect them to be towards me.  
I hate to say this, but you do realize you basically are saying "yeah it doesn't make any philosophic sense, however I like it so its good."

Also, the same critique of Humanism applies to the golden rule, so I'm not sure what you are getting at by quoting it at me.  you say that "we must not discriminate between individuals on arbitary grounds."  Can you please back this up with some reason for not discriminating on arbitrary grounds not based in personal opinion?  Lets assume that I'm someone saying that blacks are less valuable than whites. Will a conversation with you boil down to a "uh-huh, nu-uh" exchange?  Now to take your argument further, because you claim humanism is only not acceptable when the individual's goals outweigh the larger groups, how about we take this thought scenario back a couple of hundred of years ago when blacks were thought by the larger society to be lesser than whites. What happens then? My opinion and society at large vs yours.  Does that then make me correct? .. I hope you see where I'm going with this.

Quote from: "templeboy"So on the broad scale, humanistic ethics is arbitary, in the same sense that all human endeavor is ultimately futile and irrelevant to the fate of the universe. Recognising that morality is a product, a property, of culture, humanistic ethics seeks to prevent arbitary distinction between individuals on this level. And the goals of humanism are thus those goals which conform to the universalisable model of discrimination, and (this is the arbitary and thus contentious part) those that seek to improve the human condition generally)
If we are going to zoom out that far... if everything is pointless even humanism is pointless as the universe heads toward its inevitable death.  This kinda sounds more nihilistic to me.

Quote from: "templeboy"Ergo the main arbitary part of humanism is that it seeks to do good. That can only be explained by human nature; and that is explained by cultural and genetic evolution.
This basically explains why humanism exists, not if it's valid or not so it was kinda pointless in this conversation, but meh. whatever.

-Ihateusernames
Title: Re: What do atheist think about rape?
Post by: Whitney on January 03, 2010, 08:06:08 AM
Quote from: "Ihateusernames"however at the moment isn't this the only sound atheistic deductive moral theory that makes any philosophical sense?

I don't think ethical nihilism makes much practical sense as there would be no reason to care about how you treat others.  I think one thing people often forget about philosophy is that even if an argument is logically sound it must still fit reality.  I think something like ethical egoism would be appealing to most who accept ethical nihilism yet doesn't ignore the fact that humans do have a survival need to act morally.

From my understanding of ethical egoism rather than there being prescriptive morals one simply might act in a manner that benefits their neighbor knowing that doing so also benefits the self.  It's kinda like an explanation of what some have described happening with social contract theory without all the duty to society bs.

Ethical egoism can lead to anarchy or a view of do whatever you want, however I don't think going to that extreme is logically necessary or sound and is the result of not fully understanding the repercussions of actions nor the human need to depend on others for survival.
Title: Re: What do atheist think about rape?
Post by: templeboy on January 03, 2010, 09:43:20 AM
QuoteI hate to say this, but you do realize you basically are saying "yeah it doesn't make any philosophic sense, however I like it so its good."

I think I am trying to get at is that a moral system should be judged on what its effects would be if it was followed widely...how can this be an objectionable principle?

Quotebecause you claim humanism is only not acceptable when the individual's goals outweigh the larger groups, how about we take this thought scenario back a couple of hundred of years ago when blacks were thought by the larger society to be lesser than whites.

No I am saying nothing like this. If the individuals goals are outweighing the larger groups goals, then that is not humanism, it is individualism...it is ethical egoism....the attitudes of whites towards non-whites two hundred years ago fail to the humanist principle not because we should treat all humans the same, but because there is no rational or empirical basis why black people should be treated differently to white people

QuoteIf we are going to zoom out that far... if everything is pointless even humanism is pointless as the universe heads toward its inevitable death. This kinda sounds more nihilistic to me.

Yeah of course...it would be fair to say that the universe has a ethical nihilist view towards us ;)
Title: Re: What do atheist think about rape?
Post by: Ihateusernames on January 03, 2010, 07:12:32 PM
For my most interestingly wonderful words please see: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=4328 (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=4328)

I'm sure you are all just dyyyyyying to read them :P
Title: Lets change this, the origional one pisses me off too much.
Post by: Ihateusernames on January 03, 2010, 07:37:38 PM
Once again, for my most interestingly wonderful words please see: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=4328

I'm sure you are all just dyyyyyying to read them :P
Title: Re: What do atheist think about rape?
Post by: kelltrill on January 07, 2010, 09:49:41 AM
I understand that this topic has branched away from the issue of rape and has become more of a moral argument, but I have to get this out of my system.

Quote from: "theradwun"First of all, I think you must be grossly arrogant for believing you've discovered the non-existence of God after billions/trillions of people for the past who-knows-how-many thousands of years have been contemplating this question with no definite answers in either direction.
First off, I really do like to think that the human race is somewhat more intelligent than it was thousands of years ago when we were still throwing rocks at our own shadows. All you're proving by making that statement is that you do not believe in progress and believe in a religiously homogenous culture, which is unrealistic to say the least.

Quote from: "theradwun"Secondly, I wasn't trying to say that atheists are bad people as you are obviously implying that I'm implying. My point is to point out that it seems strange that we as humans have this idea that rape is "immoral" if it seems be beneficial to our naturalistic purpose.

Rape is about power and force and has nothing whatever to do with procreation. It is considered immoral because it is an emotionally and physically harmful act towards an unconsenting person. This is not rocket science.
Furthermore, I find your implication that non-religious people are morally bereft quite offensive. I was raised in a secular environment and know it's wrong to lie, cheat and steal. My parents never once used religion as an excuse for their inability to explain to me why something should be morally unnacceptable. My only hope is that one day more people will realise that god is not the answer to everything. Otherwise we're never going to move away from the point we're at right now: with generations of people too frightened to think for themselves.
"Why does the river flow down? Because God wishes it to."
"Why does the river flow up? Because God wishes it to."
People should not be okay with the answer to these two statements being exactly the same, otherwise we're just going to stagnate in our own ignorance and arrogance.
Title: Re: What do atheist think about rape?
Post by: Smarmy Of One on January 08, 2010, 12:45:35 PM
I can't believe I am about to say this but maybe humanity does need religion since it seems to be the only thing that keeps people like precious theradwun here from raping everything in sight.

STAY IN CHURCH YOUNG MAN!
Title: Re: What do atheist think about rape?
Post by: LoneMateria on January 08, 2010, 04:56:06 PM
Quote from: "Smarmy Of One"I can't believe I am about to say this but maybe humanity does need religion since it seems to be the only thing that keeps people like precious theradwun here from raping everything in sight.

STAY IN CHURCH YOUNG MAN!

We all know its a bullshit excuse.  If there was no religion or God they would be accountable to themselves and society.  If they went out there and raped people they'd get caught and go to jail and lose 15 years of their life because they had a temper tantrum.  And they know that.  If someone honestly believed that if there was no God or religion it would be okay to commit these things in our society then they need to be committed to a mental institution.  What theradwun doesn't understand is that having this one shot at things makes this life infinitely more valuable.  Hiding under the security blanket of religion devalues life and often times destroys the morals that make people human.  Atheists make up abot 5% of the population of the US but only occupy 0.3% of its prisons.  What does this tell you about morality and God?  It tells me they are mutually exclusive.
Title: Re: What do atheist think about rape?
Post by: Smarmy Of One on January 08, 2010, 05:43:04 PM
Oh, I agree with you 100%, I was just cracking a joke.

I don't think a trogg like theradwun deserves a straight answer.  :D
Title: Re: What do atheist think about rape?
Post by: LoneMateria on January 08, 2010, 07:40:02 PM
Quote from: "Smarmy Of One"Oh, I agree with you 100%, I was just cracking a joke.

I don't think a trogg like theradwun deserves a straight answer.  lol I know I was just explaining why to anyone who happens to by the whole atheists and morality crap.
Title: Re: What do atheist think about rape?
Post by: SSY on January 09, 2010, 02:09:39 AM
Quote from: "LoneMateria"Atheists make up abot 5% of the population of the US but only occupy 0.3% of its prisons.  What does this tell you about morality and God?  It tells me they are mutually exclusive.

Well, to be fair, it could mean a number of things, atheists tend to be more intelligent, which leads to affluence and lower crime rates, atheists may be better at committing crimes so as not to get caught, there may be bias against convicting/arresting atheists, atheists may get shorter jail spells or be released earlier etc. Statistics always bear looking into, while I certainly agree that  belief in god does not infuse one with a strong moral sense, I don't think your argument stands as it is.
Title: Re: What do atheist think about rape?
Post by: LoneMateria on January 09, 2010, 03:22:55 AM
Quote from: "SSY"
Quote from: "LoneMateria"Atheists make up abot 5% of the population of the US but only occupy 0.3% of its prisons.  What does this tell you about morality and God?  It tells me they are mutually exclusive.

Well, to be fair, it could mean a number of things, atheists tend to be more intelligent, which leads to affluence and lower crime rates, atheists may be better at committing crimes so as not to get caught, there may be bias against convicting/arresting atheists, atheists may get shorter jail spells or be released earlier etc. Statistics always bear looking into, while I certainly agree that  belief in god does not infuse one with a strong moral sense, I don't think your argument stands as it is.

Devil's advocate?  If atheists depict their portrayal by Christians then being "immoral and evil" then we should make up at significant portion of our penal system.  If the Christians view depicts reality then almost no Christians would be in prison (because they are more moral) and an overwhelming number of non-Christians should be in them (assuming of course it is a fair and unbiased system).  We shouldn't have the problem of over crowded prisons because there shouldn't be but a handful of Christians in prison.  We shouldn't have the Christian population in prison make up the overwhelming majority of convicted criminals.  But we do.  There may be slight variations, atheists may be better at not being caught in their crimes, but then again how many criminals think they won't get caught?  How many would have to get away with their crimes to make up for that big difference?  Correlation doesn't necessarily mean causation (after all if we were having this conversation 50 years ago having more black people in jail my not mean that black people cause more crimes) however when a Christian makes the claim that Christians are more moral then atheists then there should be some relevant statistic to prove it. There is not.

***EDIT***

I was gonna add this but I forgot until after I hit submit.  To be as fair as I possibly can be, given the circumstance, there is a link with poverty level and criminal activity.  The overwhelming majority of poverty stricken Americans happen to be very religious.  So that could possibly make up for some of the numbers.  But certainly not all of it because there is such an overwhelming majority (something around 80%) of the prison population is Christian.  But whatever I guess the common retort is, "Well they aren't true Christians".  So arguing this against a Christian would probably be pointless.
Title: Re: What do atheist think about rape?
Post by: tkd on January 09, 2010, 04:57:35 AM
Well, being an atheist and thus not being told what I'm allowed to believe, MY answer is I think it's horrible and not punished nearly as severely as it should be. It is so repugnant and hurtful that I think serial rapists should be castrated. No lengthy trial, no appeals, just cut that shit off. But that's just me since I can only speak for myself.

However, based on the number of cultures that do not prosecute rape, or at the least encourage it during war-type situations, I wouldn't say it's ALWAYS considered immoral. Also it would appear that the rapists doing it don't consider it all that wrong. Given the percentages of known (jailed) atheist rapists vs. known theist rapists, it would seem that you should be asking how theists feel about rape, since a higher percentage of them seem to do it. I'm curious too because as far as I know, they're told it's wrong, yet obviously, there's a lot of rapin' goin' on.

I also don't think it necessarily would be in the best interest of survival of the species as I think female orgasm aids conception and rape pretty much prevents that. I'm not saying you can't get pregnant from a rape, obviously you can, but if would seem the number of conceptions would be higher with consensual sex than rape.

I think humans have evolved to think things that cause pain are bad and speaking from experience, rape is pretty painful. Even IF it wasn't physically painful, emotionally it is, so still = pain. While animals don't like pain either, they appear to lack the higher conscience that we have that tells us rape = pain = wrong. So maybe you've seen male ducks raping a female, but I doubt they have the same thought process.

Well, that's what I think about it.
Title: Re: What do atheist think about rape?
Post by: Sophus on January 09, 2010, 05:17:33 AM
Umm... is someone pushing for the legalization of rape or something? I don't understand.  :hmm:

Now a more interesting topic would be:

What do you think of the way America's system for classifying sex offenders? Rape, to me, is one where the person should be required to register. But I also think one size does not fit all and there are some people who are put through hell for just silly things that they then must identify as a sex offender for.
Title: Re: What do atheist think about rape?
Post by: AlP on January 09, 2010, 05:20:21 AM
Quote from: "Sophus"What do you think of the way America's system for classifying sex offenders? Rape, to me, is one where the person should be required to register. But I also think one size does not fit all and there are some people who are put through hell for just silly things that they then must identify as a sex offender for.
Such as?
Title: Re: What do atheist think about rape?
Post by: Ihateusernames on January 09, 2010, 07:23:28 AM
Quote from: "LoneMateria"
Quote from: "SSY"
Quote from: "LoneMateria"Atheists make up abot 5% of the population of the US but only occupy 0.3% of its prisons.  What does this tell you about morality and God?  It tells me they are mutually exclusive.

Well, to be fair, it could mean a number of things, atheists tend to be more intelligent, which leads to affluence and lower crime rates, atheists may be better at committing crimes so as not to get caught, there may be bias against convicting/arresting atheists, atheists may get shorter jail spells or be released earlier etc. Statistics always bear looking into, while I certainly agree that  belief in god does not infuse one with a strong moral sense, I don't think your argument stands as it is.

Devil's advocate?  If atheists depict their portrayal by Christians then being "immoral and evil" then we should make up at significant portion of our penal system.  If the Christians view depicts reality then almost no Christians would be in prison (because they are more moral) and an overwhelming number of non-Christians should be in them (assuming of course it is a fair and unbiased system).  We shouldn't have the problem of over crowded prisons because there shouldn't be but a handful of Christians in prison.  We shouldn't have the Christian population in prison make up the overwhelming majority of convicted criminals.  But we do.  There may be slight variations, atheists may be better at not being caught in their crimes, but then again how many criminals think they won't get caught?  How many would have to get away with their crimes to make up for that big difference?  Correlation doesn't necessarily mean causation (after all if we were having this conversation 50 years ago having more black people in jail my not mean that black people cause more crimes) however when a Christian makes the claim that Christians are more moral then atheists then there should be some relevant statistic to prove it. There is not.

***EDIT***

I was gonna add this but I forgot until after I hit submit.  To be as fair as I possibly can be, given the circumstance, there is a link with poverty level and criminal activity.  The overwhelming majority of poverty stricken Americans happen to be very religious.  So that could possibly make up for some of the numbers.  But certainly not all of it because there is such an overwhelming majority (something around 80%) of the prison population is Christian.  But whatever I guess the common retort is, "Well they aren't true Christians".  So arguing this against a Christian would probably be pointless.

Hey now, *I* am the devil's advocate of HAF! grrr! haven't you read the other thread?

But honestly, you really are straw-manning "Christian" arguments.  I don't really blame you, though, because if you don't really put the effort into listening to the more intellectual Christians (and since you seem to disregard anything a christian says as stupid, I doubt you are actually reading any of the more intellectual christian literature, pardon my frankness and possible mistake), and instead listen to all the trolls (rather retarded people, honestly) what you present *is* what "christians" normally say.

The more eloquent Christian's argument follows more along the lines of the theistic morality vs ethical nihilism debate.  They don't state that the atheist is necessarily "immoral" because of their beliefs, they state that if you accept the atheist's assumptions (there is no god, or there most probably isn't, either way) it leads to ethical nihilism which as I'm sure you know disregards the notion of morality in general.  Its not that the atheist IS immoral, its that the atheist has no concept of morality. The thoughtful Christian will obviously admit that if an atheist's personal desire is in line with what society generally considers "moral" then obviously the atheist can be as moral as the next person.  However, the thoughtful atheist also has to admit that if the atheist's personal desire is totally out of line of what society generally considers "moral" they have no philosophically binding reason (negating legal punishment as that is possibly  avoidable) to not act on those desires.

Also something of note, if I was a Christian and I came in here and said "Atheists are immoral!" that statement by itself also doesn't necessarily say that I am assuming Christians act in a moral way. (although most trolls do, that's irrelevant to my point  :yay:)  That would be reading something into the statement that wasn't actually said. The bible depicts Christians acting in very immoral ways, while still retaining their "true christian-ness" status and the entire attempted point of the bible (imo) is that moral 'perfection' isn't possible, so there needs to be something to help the morally 'imperfect' into 'perfection'.

Anyway this is a quickly-written long-winded way of saying the whole "Christians say atheists are immoral!" argument is almost as straw-man-y as a christian actually saying atheists are immoral!

So, regarding the jail population's religious status... I'd just like to point out that in general people in jail tend to not be philosophically or theologically inclined as they are stupid (I understand this is a generalization, but seriously...).  That being said, I think we can all agree that being "religious" is considered a step in the right direction by our legal system, even if we think that this shouldn't be the case.  People in jail's primary (and I'd say extremely focused on) goal is getting out/getting parole/and getting good behavior benefits, not think deeply about issues like morality or religion.  If claiming atheism was dangled as a carrot in front of people in jail's face like being religious currently is, the population of atheists in jail would drastically jump into the majority I'd wager. Isn't prison just socially sanctioned torture in a way? people will say anything to get out of torture ; )

-Ihateusernames

PS: Why am I posting in this thread... I had hoped it would die a slow and painful death.. ugh.
Title: Re: What do atheist think about rape?
Post by: juliec0211 on January 09, 2010, 02:30:22 PM
As for the first question.  Are you a complete nutball?  Atheists think rape is wrong because it is IMMORAL TO FORCE ANOTHER PERSON TO DO ANYTHING AGAINST THEIR WILL.  It is WRONG to force yourself on anyone because it HURTS the other person.  I don't need a holy book or a 900-foot diety to tell me not to be a shit to other people.  I will use small words:  I feel sad when I do bad things and I get an owie when people do bad things to me....I remember the owie, so I don't want to make other people have owies.  It's really not a difficult concept.

As for your suggestion of rape as a means of procreation: really?  Is RAPE REALLY the best way to go about making new little humans?  No?  I didn't think so.  This idea is idiocy.

As for being an animal.  I don't think it is even a question.  We are.  And men that rape women are proof that we will have some evolving to do.
Title: Re: What do atheist think about rape?
Post by: Sophus on January 09, 2010, 07:40:20 PM
Quote from: "AIP"Such as?

I remember reading about a guy who at the age of ten found some of his parents videos, invited some of his friends over and one thing led to another. He then had to register every year until he had finally had enough, took it to court and won. There's a large number of offenders who really don't pose a great threat to society. Especially nothing like rapists. It's a bit ridiculous to lump them all together (I'm aware they have three levels but they all do a lot of damage to their lives). Don't get me wrong, it's a system we need but we need to be careful about who we label.
Title: Re: What do atheist think about rape?
Post by: AlP on January 09, 2010, 07:58:43 PM
Quote from: "Sophus"I remember reading about a guy who at the age of ten found some of his parents videos, invited some of his friends over and one thing led to another. He then had to register every year until he had finally had enough, took it to court and won. There's a large number of offenders who really don't pose a great threat to society. Especially nothing like rapists. It's a bit ridiculous to lump them all together (I'm aware they have three levels but they all do a lot of damage to their lives). Don't get me wrong, it's a system we need but we need to be careful about who we label.
Being labelled as a sex offender in the case above seems inappropriate. I question this forced registration of sex offenders altogether. If they have been convicted of a crime then they will have a criminal record. Why don't released murderers have to register every year? If you're going to force people to register, I think do it consistently. Maybe all violent criminals have to register.
Title: Re: What do atheist think about rape?
Post by: Sophus on January 09, 2010, 11:21:54 PM
Yeah, I'd much rather know if a murderer just moved down the street than a sex offender.
Title: Re: What do atheist think about rape?
Post by: LoneMateria on January 10, 2010, 02:26:38 PM
Quote from: "Ihateusernames"Hey now, *I* am the devil's advocate of HAF! grrr! haven't you read the other thread?

But honestly, you really are straw-manning "Christian" arguments.  I don't really blame you, though, because if you don't really put the effort into listening to the more intellectual Christians (and since you seem to disregard anything a christian says as stupid, I doubt you are actually reading any of the more intellectual christian literature, pardon my frankness and possible mistake), and instead listen to all the trolls (rather retarded people, honestly) what you present *is* what "christians" normally say.

The more eloquent Christian's argument follows more along the lines of the theistic morality vs ethical nihilism debate.  They don't state that the atheist is necessarily "immoral" because of their beliefs, they state that if you accept the atheist's assumptions (there is no god, or there most probably isn't, either way) it leads to ethical nihilism which as I'm sure you know disregards the notion of morality in general.  Its not that the atheist IS immoral, its that the atheist has no concept of morality. The thoughtful Christian will obviously admit that if an atheist's personal desire is in line with what society generally considers "moral" then obviously the atheist can be as moral as the next person.  However, the thoughtful atheist also has to admit that if the atheist's personal desire is totally out of line of what society generally considers "moral" they have no philosophically binding reason (negating legal punishment as that is possibly  avoidable) to not act on those desires.

Also something of note, if I was a Christian and I came in here and said "Atheists are immoral!" that statement by itself also doesn't necessarily say that I am assuming Christians act in a moral way. (although most trolls do, that's irrelevant to my point  :yay:)  That would be reading something into the statement that wasn't actually said. The bible depicts Christians acting in very immoral ways, while still retaining their "true christian-ness" status and the entire attempted point of the bible (imo) is that moral 'perfection' isn't possible, so there needs to be something to help the morally 'imperfect' into 'perfection'.

Anyway this is a quickly-written long-winded way of saying the whole "Christians say atheists are immoral!" argument is almost as straw-man-y as a christian actually saying atheists are immoral!

So, regarding the jail population's religious status... I'd just like to point out that in general people in jail tend to not be philosophically or theologically inclined as they are stupid (I understand this is a generalization, but seriously...).  That being said, I think we can all agree that being "religious" is considered a step in the right direction by our legal system, even if we think that this shouldn't be the case.  People in jail's primary (and I'd say extremely focused on) goal is getting out/getting parole/and getting good behavior benefits, not think deeply about issues like morality or religion.  If claiming atheism was dangled as a carrot in front of people in jail's face like being religious currently is, the population of atheists in jail would drastically jump into the majority I'd wager. Isn't prison just socially sanctioned torture in a way? people will say anything to get out of torture ; )

-Ihateusernames

PS: Why am I posting in this thread... I had hoped it would die a slow and painful death.. ugh.

^_^ if i'm confusing the minority for the majority I apologize.  I live in the bible belt so the argument i'm refuting is one that i hear the Southern Baptists in the area make frequently.    Just because you live in a area where there are more rational Christians doesn't mean we are all that fortunate.  If most Christians were like the ones you seem to be describing i'd have next to no problem with religion.  The thing is 1/3 of our population classifies themselves as evangelical christians.  They take the word of the bible as literal and true.  They are the ones who claim atheists are immoral, and enjoy quoting psalms to "support" their view point.

I don't exactly know how i'm misrepresenting that situation and the claim that these people make.  Can you please explain it to me ^_^?
Title: Re: What do atheist think about rape?
Post by: Kylyssa on January 10, 2010, 05:07:28 PM
Quote from: "AlP"
Quote from: "Sophus"What do you think of the way America's system for classifying sex offenders? Rape, to me, is one where the person should be required to register. But I also think one size does not fit all and there are some people who are put through hell for just silly things that they then must identify as a sex offender for.
Such as?

Quite often it's consensual sex between teenagers and one of them can get registered as a pedophile.  In one Georgia case a 17 year old girl gave her almost-16-year-old boyfriend a blowjob which his parents found out about.  She was convicted, did ten years of hard time (more time than most actual rapists) and is registered as a pedophile.  I think it was last year that she lost her house because there was a daycare nearby and she can't be within 1000 feet or some such of any place where children congregate.  

Consensual sex between teens in Georgia is particularly hazardous, resulting in some kids getting sent to prison where they are confused with short eyes (actual pedophiles) and get treated as such by other prisoners.  They are often subjected to prison rape and other abuses.  Ten year prison sentences for teenage consensual sex are possible.

The thing that is so entirely fucked up about this is that the average American loses their virginity before age 16!  So the average American has been "raped" or has "raped" according to these rulings - probably including the prosecutors, judges, juries, and the stupid parents that push for prosecution!

As someone who was actually raped I find this phenomenon revolting on many levels. Real rapists are serving shorter sentences.  Real rapists hurt people.  How dare anyone compare a teen getting a blowjob to him being raped?  (Guys, would you, at almost 16, have been emotionally scarred if you asked your girlfriend to give you a blowjob and she did?)  But far worse - rape is about coercive power over another person's sexual being.  So in my opinion, the teen that goes to prison for consensual sex with another teen is being raped by the system.
Title: Re: What do atheist think about rape?
Post by: Kylyssa on January 10, 2010, 05:10:07 PM
Oh, and another stupid thing people get registered as sex offenders for is taking a leak outside.  You know, when you think you are all alone and can't find a restroom so you urinate into a bush on the roadside - that makes you a sex offender if you get caught.
Title: Re: What do atheist think about rape?
Post by: SuperPhunThyme on January 16, 2010, 07:54:08 AM
to digress a bit (and as my first post :D )

Quotemy question is why we evolved into moral beings, especially if the moral development seems contrary to our purpose. i was assuming that a naturalist's thought must be that we developed these morals... naturally... because it was beneficial to our survival. i chose one instance that seemed out of place in that purpose. for example, why is murder wrong, well obviously if we all kill each other we won't survive. why is good to help people, well because we'll all become stronger. these are morals that would make sense to me.


i believe the human species' set of morals will soon be significantly altered. It has to be sadly, or we as a species will not survive. We've become too moral and helpful to one another (keeping each other alive, for the most part) for our own good, animalistically, and are spreading like a disease across this planet. we're so good at surviving that everything is dying and when that happens it will kill us too. sardonic, huh?
Title: Re: What do atheist think about rape?
Post by: SuperPhunThyme on January 16, 2010, 07:57:47 AM
and to Kylyssa i want to say i completely agree. the teen consensual sex thing worried me greatly when i was younger. I was 17 dating a 15 year old girl and was scared to death her parents would send me up the river. its rediculous.