Suicide

[Sweetdeath]

So suicide is a sin no matter what?  Even if a P.O.W with no hope of escape?

And I find it absolutely bull that a small "sin" like stealing an apple is viewed as te same as a big one; such as serial killing.

Hm..
Also, you mention evidence of your god and yet--nothing has been proven

[Crow]

Hm..
Also, you mention evidence of your god and yet--nothing has been proven

I think AD was referring to evidence to an interpretation of the bible rather than evidence that a god existed, well that's how I took it but may be wrong.

[Ihateyoumike]

The smallest sin in the world can keep one out of salvation and likewise the biggest sin (aside from the unpardonable sin) cannot keep one from receiving the free gift of salvation through it's Mediator.

This is awesome. Since I will openly deny your god and holy spirit, or ignore him, I wouldn't have a chance. Yet many of the worst dictators, killers, rapists, and the rest are sitting comfortably in heaven having a beer with god because - hey - at least they believed in him.

Don't take this as me being upset in any way about it, because I don't believe in any of it anyway. Just an observation.

[xSilverPhinx]

The smallest sin in the world can keep one out of salvation and likewise the biggest sin (aside from the unpardonable sin) cannot keep one from receiving the free gift of salvation through it's Mediator.

This is awesome. Since I will openly deny your god and holy spirit, or ignore him, I wouldn't have a chance. Yet many of the worst dictators, killers, rapists, and the rest are sitting comfortably in heaven having a beer with god because - hey - at least they believed in him.

Don't take this as me being upset in any way about it, because I don't believe in any of it anyway. Just an observation.

It doesn't make any sense. Anyways I'd rather not be in heaven if that's the sort of company god chooses to keep around.

[Medusa]

My point is not offend any person(s) who've dealt with suicide either on the personal side or knowing a friend/family member that has/is, but anyone who fails at "suicide" is not really serious, but simply wanting attention. (not attention in the simplistic meaning).

Am I being insensitive in having this opinion?  I'm not trying to be insensitive.

I don't think it's insensitive. And I do see where you can get that idea. My failure was due to a complete fluke. I waited till my godmother was out of the house. I stayed home and I took a bunch of sleeping pills. I lay in the middle of the floor and waited to die. Unfortunately (read as FORTUNATELY) she had come home during the day and sadly found me on the floor. I didn't want attention in the least. I wanted the pain to stop. I was put on emergency diability by my psychiatrist. I had to step down as store manager. I had to go through alot of treatment and medications to get myself back to normal. My suicide attempt was a symptom of my bi-polar in full force (my mother also suffers from this and my brother is schizophrenic) The mental illness situation runs throughout my maternal side starting with my grandmother and probably earlier then her if I dug enough.

I wasn't looking for attention or help. I was looking for an end to something I thought there was none of. And even though I had dealt with mental illness my whole life through dealing with my mother. I had no real understanding of the deep well it lives within one self. And even now as I am pretty content with my life. I will never wear a true happy face. The happiness I feel. The limit that I have to feel it is just something I (and sadly Lecter) will have to deal with forever. I have come to accept this about me.


As for the offshoot topic of the religious beliefs on suicide. I think in the Christian world it's considered a sin because you are doing something in your own will and not the Will of God.

[Stevil]

What you call blind, I call having evidence I believe to be good evidence.  We differ on that only.  At the moment, you* cannot be judged as never knowing about God, because you* openly deny any diety (* you being the average Atheist, a general "you") including the Abrahamic God which many of the Atheists I've come into contact here at HAF take personal exception on His perceived actions or lack thereof and add to their disgust on God that even if God were to come down and prove Himself, they would not follow anyway.

I do not deny god.
I deny all evedence presented to date with regards to the existence of any god.
I am yet to see a clear description on what a god is.
I am yet to see any evidence as to why one god would be any more likely than any of the other gods.
I am yet to see any evidence as to whether the Abrahamic god acts favourably towards humans.

Going by the old testament, said to be the word of god, god acts in ways that kills people, drowning millions, turning people into salt, setting wild animals on children, sending disease to kill the first born of a race of people. The book is clear and specific to say that god did these things.
If the book were the word of god then to me it shows how poorly this god grasps language, it is terribly written, seems like something a 12 year old boy with a fascination for war and death and a hatred of women would write. The repitition is off putting and the messages are bizzare, and unfactual, requiring much interpretation.

If it became proven that the Abrahamic god exists then it would certainly need to explain itself to humanity and certainly myself before I could possibly choose to side with it.

[xSilverPhinx]

AnimatedDirt, two questions:

If suicide for those who really want to carry it out because they see it as the only possibility or as Medusa said, just don't want to live to suffer anymore, were something that's "bad" or wrong in god's eyes, then wouldn't god "say" something in something a bit more noticeable to that person than a "still, small voice"?

Two points here.

1.  I don't think even the Atheist belittles the "devil on our shoulder" as insignificant.  That 'still, small voice' isn't necessarily audible, but sometimes our minds hear things loud and clear that are not audible.  Sometimes, as we are speaking of here, things that drive someone to suicide are perceived problems with no solution that comes to mind and our mind is overrun with the problem which makes it so big, that they/we don't see any solution but suicide.

2.  I'm not certain, but at least in the historical record of the Bible, suicide seems to not be a societal issue.  If so, it may be that "Thou shalt not murder" is enough to cover the issue of suicide and cover whether suicide is a mortal sin or not.  Clearly we see murderers in the biblical accounts that have turned to God and He has received them as a parent would their beloved child.

Secondly, I'm just curious to know why you think that (theologically) some Christians, such as the Catholics, consider suicide to be a sin? I think they take it to the extreme, not allowing things that I think are merciful such as euthanasia and so my disagreements with them are not based on theology because for me, they don't have to be.

Because it is murder.  Self murder, but murder nonetheless.  It is a sin.  The more important question is whether it is a mortal sin.  I think I've covered my position on this.  Taking it to the extreme is not unlike the Israelites (Jews) of the OT that added rules in keeping God's Law(s).  None of which God ever uttered or wrote.  It's basic human nature.  As time goes on, we become more and more enlightened to the better interpretations.  Suicide is a sin.  No doubt.  Is it a mortal sin or a sin to fear more than say stealing a nickel?  No.  Sin is sin no matter its degree.  The smallest sin in the world can keep one out of salvation and likewise the biggest sin (aside from the unpardonable sin) cannot keep one from receiving the free gift of salvation through it's Mediator.

I also don't think that your observation on suicide is insensitive.

Whew...I was sweating that post after hitting <Post>

Ok, thanks for clarifying. I just really don't see the point or even reasonableness of saying that a small sin is equal to a worse sin and that belief in god is placed so high, but that would derail the thread so maybe for another time.

[Medusa]

I don't mean to be a downer. Not that religion talk isn't interesting ....to a point.

But can we get back to personal views on suicide? I could care less what God you worship or not has to say about this subject.

[Stevil]

I don't mean to be a downer. Not that religion talk isn't interesting ....to a point.

But can we get back to personal views on suicide? I could care less what God you worship or not has to say about this subject.

OK, fair enough.
Suicide bad and sad.

But understandable sometimes.
One of my freinds had a girlfreind that killed herself.
She was raped many times as a child by her brothers, couldn't get over it. Life sux sometimes for some people.

[Sweetdeath]

That's horrible... ;_;

[xSilverPhinx]

Fair enough.

I've never 'been there', as in really wanting to commit suicide for the sake of dying and hope I never go there. For the past few years I've cultivated very strong reasons to stay.

Medusa, did you ever think, during your darkest moments, that things could get better?

[AnimatedDirt]

I don't mean to be a downer. Not that religion talk isn't interesting ....to a point.

But can we get back to personal views on suicide? I could care less what God you worship or not has to say about this subject.

I hear you and respect your wishes. 

[DeterminedJuliet]

I work at a veterinary clinic where animal euthanasia is very common and it has helped put me into the pro-assisted suicide camp, for sure. 99% of the time, based on what I have seen, euthanasia comes as a blessing and the alternative is lengthy suffering. If we won't do that to our animal friends, why do we do it to other people? I have given my husband explicit instructions that if I am terminal and have no quality of life left, that I don't want to hang on just for the sake of "hanging on".

[Tank]

I work at a veterinary clinic where animal euthanasia is very common and it has helped put me into the pro-assisted suicide camp, for sure. 99% of the time, based on what I have seen, euthanasia comes as a blessing and the alternative is lengthy suffering. If we won't do that to our animal friends, why do we do it to other people? I have given my husband explicit instructions that if I am terminal and have no quality of life left, that I don't want to hang on just for the sake of "hanging on".

As a profession vets have the highest suicide rate in the UK as they can see the advantages and have access to the right equipment. I think doctors come second on the list.

[OldGit]

I've given instructions like Medusa's; I carry a card and wear a DNAR bracelet which link to my written declaration.
Does it count as suicide if, dying from a heart attack, I verbally refuse treatment?  It seems to me to be much the same as making a physical move such as pulling a trigger or swallowing pills.  And if that does count as suicide, is it also suicide to refuse treatment in advance?