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Gays, liberal Christianity and consistency

Started by Gorton, April 17, 2011, 06:00:28 PM

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Gorton

Hello all, I'm a 20 year old (male) student from London UK excited to be signing in for the first time. Here is my little religion story, please feel free to comment. In fact, please do or I'll never graduate to full membership.  :(  I'm afraid the substance doesn't really justify the length, and I apologise. It has helped me clarify my thoughts just to write it down, even if it remains unread.

I was born into a Methodist family, or more accurately my mother was/is a Methodist and leader of the Sunday School, whereas my Dad kept out of it. I attended church pretty much weekly from birth until going to university at the age of 18. The church was typically Methodist (British Methodist that is): i.e. fairly liberal, avoiding fire and brimstone etc.

While I was a teenager, I slowly came to realise that I was gay. It never even crossed my mind that there was any contradiction between my religion and my sexuality. I didn't have any boyfriends, but I fully intended to if the opportunity arose. This was probably to a large extent because of my attitude to my religion: I believed in God, as it were, 'intellectually' but I didn't really draw any spiritual value from it. I rarely prayed, and when I did I didn't feel particularly close to God or, indeed, any different from how I usually felt.

The beginning of the end for my Christianity was at the age of 18 when one day, when I was at church, I suddenly thought 'do I really believe in this?' So I read 'The God Delusion' and 'God is Not Great' and they seemed quite reasonable, but I kept on going to church and I wouldn't have identified, to myself or others, as an atheist.

Then I went to university somewhere with lots of evangelical Christians, who believed all the things I never did. To cut a long story short, one of them became my boyfriend. He told me that he was gay, and that he could only do anything about it now, because he'd lost his faith. He had thought, and still did, that Christianity and homosexuality were incompatible. We debated this point; I argued that the Bible was open to interpretation, etc etc. He said if we pick and choose bits to follow, it's just like any other book. More on that in a moment, but the other point he made was that he didn't think I'd ever really believed in Christianity, that I liked going to church and singing hymns and whatnot, but never really took it seriously. And, he argued, if someone genuinely believes Christianity is true isn't it the most amazing thing? How could anyone be a 'Christmas-only' Christian, for example, if they actually believed in Jesus?

I found the second point more persuasive than the first - he's probably right that I never really believed it, and I've slowly but surely come to consider myself an atheist. But it's the first point that got me thinking. I put it to my Mum, who pointed out quite legitimately that nobody follows all the biblical rules - why should someone feel they can't engage in homosexual relations but could wear a mixed fabric shirt or eat shellfish or whatever. I suppose the obvious response for an atheist would be to say that the Ian Paisley types are hypocrites just like the Bishop Spong types, but I did wonder (if anyone's still reading) whether atheists do think that, if I can put it like this: Given Christianity, homosexuality is a sin.

I've tried to extricate myself from 'my' church and tell my parents that I don't really believe it any more, and frankly I'm surprised how disappointed they are (even my Dad who, inconveniently for me, has recently become a church-goer.) I think I've been guilty of confusing the two issues my boyfriend made: that I never really believed and that Christianity and homosexuality are incompatible, with the result that my parents think I won't go to church because I think everyone is appalled by my relationship. Every time we discuss it it gets a bit awkward - I don't quite know how to tell them I didn't believe 'properly' in the first place. 'Mum, I think you're peddling those little children dangerous lies' somehow seems to strike the wrong note.

xSilverPhinx

Firstly, welcome!

The way I see it, homosexuality is incompatible with all conservative groups, and that includes some branches or churches of Christianity, just as knowledge and tolerance are *eyeroll*. They get fussy about that topic because, like they do with evolutionary theory while not contesting scientifically incomplete (in the larger scale) theories such as gravity, it has a string of moral questions that come with it. They might think that homosexuals destabilise society and family values, for instance, and so are immoral. The problems they have with that is not on the same level as passages that say that eating shellfish or wearing a piece of clothing made of different fabrics are sins. You have to remember that religions have a purpose for group organisation and perpetuation...

What were your beliefs like? Did you use god mostly to explain gaps in your knowledge?
I am what survives if it's slain - Zack Hemsey


oscarstrok

you have done nothing wrong, and there is nothing wrong with being gay.
it is a touchy topic, where you can lose friends and families over if you're not careful.
im no expert, but being an atheist or an agnostic isn't much of a big deal nor should it change your social life. hay im an atheist and it really doesn't impact me (i did have some religious troubles when i was 8 but i was confused then)

Tank

Hi Gorton

It's a shame that you are having to go through this sort of thing. The hang over of institutionalised superstition.

Welcome to HAF.

Regards
Chris
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

Crow

Hi Gorton,

The majority of people who say they are of a certain faith have never read the teachings that they believe, so how can they truly believe something if there only basis for there belief is what the religious figures teach in there services (and that is usually from there individual perspective of the writings). I personally see the mainstream religious crowd as less of a "[they] pick and choose bits " but more of they aren't fully aware of the entire teachings. Saying that though there are a lot of people that use the pick and mix model, my personal view on this is they can use there religious writings to justify certain actions then ignore the bits they don't like.

Homosexuality is definitely incompatible with most religions and as xSilverPhinx points out all conservative groups as there structure is a derivative of religion. Christianity's stance on the matter is people may be homosexual but should not act upon any desires and if they remain celibate will become heterosexual in heaven, if there not they will go to hell. What do I think of this? Its total bullshit it oppresses people for what is natural to them, attempting to form people into tightly formed boxes that reject the relativism of human ways of life so they can manage the populace in a more orderly way.
Retired member.

Gorton

Thanks for the welcome all!

QuoteWhat were your beliefs like? Did you use god mostly to explain gaps in your knowledge?
My beliefs were basically that I couldn't see how the universe could exist without something to create it. I never seriously doubted evolution, I would have gone with the typical explanation that natural selection is all true, but it was guided by God. I'm no scientist, so I just accepted the mainstream scientific explanations of phenomena and accepted God to the extent that he was compatible with them.

The one area where I could have been called a Biblical literalist was miracles. I could never see, and actually still can't, why Christians would disavow the virgin birth or the turning of water into wine, for example. If God is omnipotent why should they not have happened?

QuoteThe problems they have with that is not on the same level as passages that say that eating shellfish or wearing a piece of clothing made of different fabrics are sins. You have to remember that religions have a purpose for group organisation and perpetuation...
Also, I suppose a Christian would point to the New Testament passage (I forget where it can be found, clearly wasn't paying much attention) where God says anything goes in the diet department. The intellectual contortions are quite impressive in some ways.

QuoteIt's a shame that you are having to go through this sort of thing. The hang over of institutionalised superstition.
Many thanks, but I hope I didn't give the impression that my life is very difficult because of my atheism. Obviously I'm unhappy that my parents are disappointed but I'm not being disowned or anything. My boyfriend, however, cannot tell his Christian parents about his sexuality. It's sad, because they're actually very nice people.

QuoteThe majority of people who say they are of a certain faith have never read the teachings that they believe, so how can they truly believe something if there only basis for there belief is what the religious figures teach in there services (and that is usually from there individual perspective of the writings). I personally see the mainstream religious crowd as less of a "[they] pick and choose bits " but more of they aren't fully aware of the entire teachings. Saying that though there are a lot of people that use the pick and mix model, my personal view on this is they can use there religious writings to justify certain actions then ignore the bits they don't like.
This is probably very true. It makes one wonder what their response would be if they knew the full extent of Biblical law. Either they'd have to accept all of it, give up their religion or soldier on with all the contradictions.

xSilverPhinx

I don't know how new you are to these issues and don't know where to start, but have you checked out how other deconverted atheists which share many things in common with you have handled it?

IMO non belief or different beliefs are enough on their own to be a reason not to want to go to church. I would focus mostly on those at first more than on your sexuality since your parents might be confused as to why you would want to leave an more accepting "fairly liberal" church. If you want to leave a community that revolves around some beliefs you no longer hold, then that should be enough. To me it doesn't even make sense that a deist would go to a theistic church if they didn't go primarily for the community they see themselves as part of...

Christianity really has become an odd thing - it's grown multiple personalities - making it seem like very different religions based on one same body of text and if the parts that your church followed (or wilfully ignored) do not consider homosexuality to be a sin, then you'll be attacking a strawman, and that won't get you anywhere. What was it's stance on that?
I am what survives if it's slain - Zack Hemsey


DeterminedJuliet

Fundamentalist Christians (those who say that you can't "pick and choose" what you want to follow) don't realize that even if they say they aren't, they are still picking and choosing which parts of the bible they want to give the most emphasis to. You can try to interpret the bible literally, but no human can actually live in literal accordance with all of it. It just isn't going to happen. You end up "sinning" no matter what you do, so you have to pick which "sins" are more acceptable. They create this kind of warped "sin hierarchy".  

This is when they get into all kinds of zany rationalizations and tricks and "interpretations." If you try to point out potential contradictions in the Bible, they'll say "oh, no. It's not really a contradiction. It 'actually' means THIS". I saw one fundamentalist on a Christian forum argue that he knew all of the "real" interpretations and he absolutely would NOT admit that there was the slightest possibility that he was mis-interpreting the bible. He honestly thought he was reading every word exactly as God in intended.

Now, seriously, how arrogant do you have to be to think that you have the key to totally understanding the word of God; to the point where you will not accept any other points of view or possible interpretations. And wait now, isn't pride a sin? (do you see where I'm going with this?)

So, honestly, I wouldn't worry about it. There is no "right" or "wrong" Christianity (despite what some would lead you to believe) they're ALL based on interpretations - by people of things that other people have written.
"We've thought of life by analogy with a journey, with pilgrimage which had a serious purpose at the end, and the THING was to get to that end; success, or whatever it is, or maybe heaven after you're dead. But, we missed the point the whole way along; It was a musical thing and you were supposed to sing, or dance, while the music was being played.

Gorton

QuoteChristianity really has become an odd thing - it's grown multiple personalities - making it seem like very different religions based on one same body of text and if the parts that your church followed (or wilfully ignored) do not consider homosexuality to be a sin, then you'll be attacking a strawman, and that won't get you anywhere. What was it's stance on that?
The church is fairly liberal. I think you're right, I should focus on the general points. I think part of the problem in some people see Christianity as a 'default,' i.e. you should practise as a Christian unless you disbelieve enough to stop practising, whereas I think atheism should be the default, if that makes sense. A lawyer would call it the burden of proof.

QuoteThis is when they get into all kinds of zany rationalizations and tricks and "interpretations." If you try to point out potential contradictions in the Bible, they'll say "oh, no. It's not really a contradiction. It 'actually' means THIS". I saw one fundamentalist on a Christian forum argue that he knew all of the "real" interpretations and he absolutely would NOT admit that there was the slightest possibility that he was mis-interpreting the bible. He honestly thought he was reading every word exactly as God in intended.
And of course, there's no way of disproving their rationalisations, but if the Bible is divine(ly inspired) one wonders why God wouldn't have made it consistent. They have the advantage of 2000 years of very clever people coming up with plausible justifications. 2000 years of scholarship on The Cat in the Hat could probably make it sound like a reasonable basis for a belief system.

Stevil

This is one of the things I struggle to understand about some religions. It seems to be god first and family second. If there is a conflict then family members can get disowned (in extreme cases). In my opinion loving parents support their children and want to see their children happy.

I know it could be scary for a parent who might believe that their child will go to hell and endure eternal torture. This belief may force a parent to do all they can to straighten out their kid. The result will be a broken family, over an imagined belief that has not proof or evidence whatsoever to back it up.

It really is frustrating and sad.

Churches know this is going on, but arrogantly hold firm to their stance.

I predict that the homophobia of religions will ultimately lead to their downfall.

xSilverPhinx

Quote from: "Stevil"I predict that the homophobia of religions will ultimately lead to their downfall.

Nah, some are adapting to the changing times. And I think that there will still be plenty of people who for some reason or another are homophobes, they'll still have plenty of like-minded communities to join.  :sheep: :sheep: :sheep:
I am what survives if it's slain - Zack Hemsey


Crow

Quote from: "xSilverPhinx"
Quote from: "Stevil"I predict that the homophobia of religions will ultimately lead to their downfall.

Nah, some are adapting to the changing times. And I think that there will still be plenty of people who for some reason or another are homophobes, they'll still have plenty of like-minded communities to join.  :sheep: :sheep: :sheep:

I totally agree. What certain religions once persecuted is now considered to be ok, what we usually see is a religion will oppose the something until the main consensus in the world population changes, religious authorities will then take notice of this change and very very slowly begin to adopt it. It is this slow changing with the times that allows them to constantly hang in there, If the religions changed its consensus quickly they would come under fire for looking like a business trying to capture as many consumers as possible by keeping up with the next big thing. But the slow transformation of these institutes wont scare off people and look more appealing to the younger generations or those on the verge of joining be it for a point of view they disagree with.

If by any chance a popular religion did take on the belief that homosexuality was ok (I'm using church of England, and Britain as the example) the die-hard homophobic minded will just go to another religion that is practically the same but opposed to the view. Or on the other hand it may push them further towards radical political parties like the bnp (*sigh*).
Retired member.

Stevil

I don't see much way around the issue for Christians. Its not like the subjigation of women issue which is not so strongly advocated within scripture.

QuoteLev 20:13 If a man also lies with mankind, as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be on them

But now, much more people are openly gay, not just the stereotypical, limp wristed, feminine male but now adays people that you can't know unless they tell you or unless you meet their partner at a social. It's becoming a much more normal aspect to society, gay people are no longer seen as deviant freaks but simply people who may also be in love with someone. With familiarity comes compassion, understanding and even friendship. Religion's anti gay campaign cannot continue as people can easily see the issue with being anti gay and are starting to second guess their god and their church with regards to this stance. Once they start to second guess, well, the self assertion illutions of god being perfect and all loving then come into question. Once a person makes this step there is no going back, the god theory can no longer hold up.

The only way people can continue to have belief is to hold a position of disassociation between their religious belief and their real world society. Even then they are bound to suffer from cognitive dissonance. Once one understands their internal conflict then religion will go by the way side.

I just can't see the scriptures being rewritten, and major religious outfits doing a u-turn on this. e.g. imagine the Pope addressing the public and saying it is OK to be gay, that the Catholic church got it wrong for all these years. If they let people know that they can be wrong then the illusion is over and people start engaging their critical thinking.

Twentythree

The interesting thing to me is the consideration of why would homosexuality be vilified in the first place by any religion? Was it to ensure the propagation of more belivers? Was it out of fear or confusion? Was it a tool for population control. Because when you look at humanity historically homosexuality has been prevalent in some cultures while in others it has been relegated to fringe populations due to religious or political rules against it. Little boys when they learn about their stuff really want to stick their pecker in everything. I know I did, shampoo bottles, faucets, toys, furniture, for a while there I was fu**ing everything. Not to get off but just because I was experimental. Looking back its amazing that I did not end up enamored with all types of perforated objects. Not only that but some of our closest relatives, the Bonobos have sex for pleasure including homosexual sex especially between 2 females. Basically what I’m getting at is that we evolved all of our sexual intricacies, It’s entirely natural and these interests and adaptations should be celebrated and explored not vilified and suppressed. So instead of getting frustrated with 200 year old words that I can’t change I’d rather take a naturalist look at things and study the behavior of sexual suppression. Not only in religion but in culture as a whole, for something that is so natural and enjoyable why are there so many stigmas surrounding it?

not your typical...

Hey. I've been in the dilemma before, well, really I still am in it, of being a Christian and (in my personal case) being bi-curious. While in some communities, Christianity and gay can co-exists, I'm finding it more often that not that they can't. Sucks for me, I guess, but glad to hear you've found someone who almost shared your beliefs.
"Accepting the truth and keeping faith is a strong thing to do. Mixing the two however, is the dumbest thing you've ever attempted." - Radical Ostriches Bringing Eternal Requiem Tonight
Advocate for the abnormal.