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The Morality of Torture

Started by LegendarySandwich, November 28, 2010, 02:07:44 AM

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Wilson

Quote from: "Will"That's an interesting thought. When I ask myself why we punish, it's for reasons like deterrence and correction.

Is it acceptable to punish because we want revenge or vengeance for the subject's bad behavior?  Or must we do so only for the protection of society - that is, deterrence and correction?

bandit4god

Which of the following would you say most closely approximates why you are opposed to hurting kids?
a) Reason: "If everyone killed children, there would not be enough capacity in the graveyards and there would be a public health issue"
b) Emotion: "Children are sweet, kind, and helpless--who would bully such a person?"
c) Conscience: "It is wrong to hurt kids (unless there is some MUCH larger good that can come of it)"

Byronazriel

How about: D) All of the above.

Plus, I hate seeing kids get hurt. It might have something to do with the fact that I was abused as a kid, but I'm not a shrink.
"You are trying to understand madness with logic. This is not unlike searching for darkness with a torch." -Jervis Tetch

bandit4god

I'm so sorry to hear that, man, it makes total sense that you'd be opposed to kids going through what you did.  If you do believe that conscience is a part of that perspective, why do you think that is?  What is it about humans that constitutes a conscience, a sense of right and wrong that transcends subjective upbringing and culture?

Byronazriel

Uprbinging and culture certainly play a role in devolpment, however from what I can tell it's mostly working on stuff that's already there. Instinctual drive, genetic cumplusion, the human spirit, or whatever.

My point is that who we are has about as much to do with our hardware, as it does are software. There's no one thing that makes us who we are, it's a lot of things and nothing in particular.
"You are trying to understand madness with logic. This is not unlike searching for darkness with a torch." -Jervis Tetch

Will

Quote from: "Wilson"Is it acceptable to punish because we want revenge or vengeance for the subject's bad behavior?  Or must we do so only for the protection of society - that is, deterrence and correction?
Revenge is not appropriate for the justice system. Justice is restorative whereas vengeance is harmful.
I want bad people to look forward to and celebrate the day I die, because if they don't, I'm not living up to my potential.

Byronazriel

The justice system is not about what's right or wrong on an idividual basis, it's about national and cultural morality.
"You are trying to understand madness with logic. This is not unlike searching for darkness with a torch." -Jervis Tetch

Wilson

Quote from: "Will"Revenge is not appropriate for the justice system. Justice is restorative whereas vengeance is harmful.

Are you saying that if someone murdered your spouse or child, you wouldn't want him punished unless if would protect society?

Wilson

Quote from: "bandit4god"What is it about humans that constitutes a conscience, a sense of right and wrong that transcends subjective upbringing and culture?
I believe that we developed a conscience as part of the group evolution during hunter-gatherer times that allowed us to cooperate in order to have a better chance at survival.  Empathy, altruism, guilt, sense of right and wrong, and so on.  Cultural norms were grafted onto those genetic brain and personality traits.  The flip side is that it was of survival value to exclude from compassion people in competing groups or tribes - deny them your food, for example, so that your group will be more likely to survive.  So each of us has a dividing line between "us" and "them", which has been the root cause of wars, prejudice, etc.  As we get more sophisticated and became more familiar with "them", we see that they aren't so different from "us", and shift the line that divides "us" from "them".  But we still have that core drive within us.  In times of war we place the enemy on the other side of that line.  Personally I instinctively put mass murderers and most sociopaths on the other side of my dividing line, and my sympathy is limited for them - even though I understand that the way they developed is in some sense beyond their control.

LegendarySandwich

Quote from: "Wilson"
Quote from: "Will"Revenge is not appropriate for the justice system. Justice is restorative whereas vengeance is harmful.

Are you saying that if someone murdered your spouse or child, you wouldn't want him punished unless if would protect society?
"Want" and "should" are two totally different things. Revenge does not belong in a justice system.

Byronazriel

Ideally something as uncouth and irrational as revenge shouldn't be a part of anything, but vengance does have a part in the justice system. If it didn't then the perps would be given help instead of locked up or killed.
"You are trying to understand madness with logic. This is not unlike searching for darkness with a torch." -Jervis Tetch

Will

Quote from: "Wilson"Are you saying that if someone murdered your spouse or child, you wouldn't want him punished unless if would protect society?
I'm not sure. Thinking about it now, with a clear mind, I would want him rehabilitated and helped by mental health professionals. If I were in the heat of fury, I might want to torture and slaughter him and anyone he's ever cared about. You see why vengeance does not a good justice system make?
I want bad people to look forward to and celebrate the day I die, because if they don't, I'm not living up to my potential.

Wilson

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"Revenge does not belong in a justice system.

And why is that?

Wilson

Quote from: "Will"Thinking about it now, with a clear mind, I would want him rehabilitated and helped by mental health professionals. If I were in the heat of fury, I might want to torture and slaughter him and anyone he's ever cared about. You see why vengeance does not a good justice system make?
Hurting his innocent loved ones would be barbaric and evil, by my sense of right and wrong.  Wanting to kill him would be appropriate, by my sense of right and wrong.

In my opinion, vengeance is an appropriate part of a justice system.  I can't prove that it's morally acceptable, and I don't believe anyone can prove that it's not.  It feels right to me, though not to you.  Forgiveness is a great quality, but absolute forgiveness is not, by my sense of right and wrong.

How about this?  Bernie Maddoff.  Putting him in jail won't protect society from him.  His reputation is such that I'm sure he would never engage in shady activity again, and if he has enough money left, he would never work again, anyway.  He is not rehabilitatable.  He knows what he did and probably regrets it.  So .. turn him free?

Byronazriel

I know con artists, most of them are small time people with small time goals. Bernie is like the Lex Luther of conmen.

I wouldn't be surprised if he was conning someone right now.
"You are trying to understand madness with logic. This is not unlike searching for darkness with a torch." -Jervis Tetch