I think I've mentioned this before, but as far as I can tell, the whole point of "One Million Moms" is to be a club devoted to going out of your way to look for Things In The Media to all wadded up over, and then "protest" said Things in hopes of getting them changed to suit their tastes. Last time I checked in on them, they were mad about ice cream.
Now, they've found a new foe! Gay comic book heros!
http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2012/05/29/gay_comic_book_heroes_one_million_moms_reacts_to_the_green_lantern_reboot_.html (http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2012/05/29/gay_comic_book_heroes_one_million_moms_reacts_to_the_green_lantern_reboot_.html)
Le gasp! The writers of DC Comics dare think they can write whateverthehell they want in their own comic books! And it's up to One Million Moms to save the rest of us from their perversion, instead of just laying down the law in their own houses about what their kids can read. Thanks OMM! I was totally going to have to Parent or something, but now I can lay back and coast for a few more months until those heathens at Ben & Jerry's come up with more genitalia-centric ice cream names.
PS - I think it's funny that OMM is all het up about a comic book character getting married, when apparently the bulging boobies and violence that accompanies the usual comic book fare is a-ok.
Quote from: Ali on May 30, 2012, 09:10:29 PM
PS - I think it's funny that OMM is all het up about a comic book character getting married, when apparently the bulging boobies and violence that accompanies the usual comic book fare is a-ok.
Shhhhh... ;)
I am so very, very sick of gay bashing. What is the matter with people, hating on folks who are harming no one, and who just want to love whom they love??? These Million Mom bozos really tick me off. >:(
Quote from: Traveler on May 30, 2012, 09:25:35 PM
I am so very, very sick of gay bashing. What is the matter with people, hating on folks who are harming no one, and who just want to love whom they love??? These Million Mom bozos really tick me off. >:(
Me too. They give moms a bad name.
*RANT*
What is it about becoming a mother that turns a normal woman into an effing mentalist, seriously.
The competitiveness between mothers is sickening to watch. "Oh my son can count to 5", "well mine can count to 6" I don't give a shit and they are both ugly.
The "as a mother" phrase is so annoying I want to poke them in the eye; so flipping what if you're a mother it doesn't give you any more authoritative power, it just means you have popped a child out of your vagina (or not if you had a C section). If you have an opinion as a mother you don't need to state that you are one, it doesn't make any difference if you are the opinion is still just as valid without the sentence. What I automatically think when I hear that phrase is "I want you to think my opinion is more important than yours, and that I really like to use my child as a status symbol as if having a child is something special".
As a mother, I totally disagree with you Crow. Everyone knows that because I popped a baby out of my hoohah, I am an expert on practically everything. ;D ;D ;D
Quote from: Crow on May 30, 2012, 10:09:32 PM
*RANT*
What is it about becoming a mother that turns a normal woman into an effing mentalist, seriously.
The competitiveness between mothers is sickening to watch. "Oh my son can count to 5", "well mine can count to 6" I don't give a shit and they are both ugly.
The "as a mother" phrase is so annoying I want to poke them in the eye; so flipping what if you're a mother it doesn't give you any more authoritative power, it just means you have popped a child out of your vagina (or not if you had a C section). If you have an opinion as a mother you don't need to state that you are one, it doesn't make any difference if you are the opinion is still just as valid without the sentence. What I automatically think when I hear that phrase is "I want you to think my opinion is more important than yours, and that I really like to use my child as a status symbol as if having a child is something special".
I would disagree in that on some matters being a parent actually makes a difference in opinion. Some things only parents can fully appreciate and/or understand.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on May 30, 2012, 10:19:08 PM
I would disagree in that on some matters being a parent actually makes a difference in opinion. Some things only parents can fully appreciate and/or understand.
Like what?
Quote from: Crow on May 30, 2012, 10:21:26 PM
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on May 30, 2012, 10:19:08 PM
I would disagree in that on some matters being a parent actually makes a difference in opinion. Some things only parents can fully appreciate and/or understand.
Like what?
I kind of get what AD is saying. Before I was a parent, I had a whole list of things that I "would never" or "would always" do because those are the best things to do. Like, I will never let my kid watch TV or feed them fast food. Then you become a parent and realize how freaking exhausting it is, and that sometimes you need to let your kid watch a movie or a Happy Meal just to give yourself a sanity break. Maybe stuff like that is what AD means.
Quote from: Crow on May 30, 2012, 10:21:26 PM
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on May 30, 2012, 10:19:08 PM
I would disagree in that on some matters being a parent actually makes a difference in opinion. Some things only parents can fully appreciate and/or understand.
Like what?
Living with kids/teens.
Quote from: Ali on May 30, 2012, 10:34:18 PM
I kind of get what AD is saying. Before I was a parent, I had a whole list of things that I "would never" or "would always" do because those are the best things to do. Like, I will never let my kid watch TV or feed them fast food. Then you become a parent and realize how freaking exhausting it is, and that sometimes you need to let your kid watch a movie or a Happy Meal just to give yourself a sanity break. Maybe stuff like that is what AD means.
Yup...
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on May 30, 2012, 10:41:54 PM
Quote from: Crow on May 30, 2012, 10:21:26 PM
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on May 30, 2012, 10:19:08 PM
I would disagree in that on some matters being a parent actually makes a difference in opinion. Some things only parents can fully appreciate and/or understand.
Like what?
Living with kids/teens.
Quote from: Ali on May 30, 2012, 10:34:18 PM
I kind of get what AD is saying. Before I was a parent, I had a whole list of things that I "would never" or "would always" do because those are the best things to do. Like, I will never let my kid watch TV or feed them fast food. Then you become a parent and realize how freaking exhausting it is, and that sometimes you need to let your kid watch a movie or a Happy Meal just to give yourself a sanity break. Maybe stuff like that is what AD means.
Yup...
To be honest I would listen to the persons opinion regardless of them being a parent or not, it only takes common sense to notice that children are exhausting and doesn't require an uppity attitude to get it across any better. Just try and say the phrase without sounding like an arsehole, it cant be done just as the English can't say "beer can" quickly without sounding like they are saying "bacon" with a Jamaican accent.
Quote from: Traveler on May 30, 2012, 09:25:35 PM
I am so very, very sick of gay bashing. What is the matter with people, hating on folks who are harming no one, and who just want to love whom they love??? These Million Mom bozos really tick me off. >:(
I am so very, very sick of ice cream bashing. I mean come on! If you don't want your kids to eat ice cream, then be a mean parent and make them suffer without it. That's your choice. Don't think for a second you can come into my house and stop me from eating ice cream! There are some things better than drugs:
Stormchasing
The way my wife's eyes nearly shut and she seems to punch the air because of how much effort she puts into smiling and laughter.
Ice cream.
I will stand on the mountain and I will tell the moms that they make take our lives, but they will never take OUR ICE CREAM!
Quote from: Ali on May 30, 2012, 10:14:31 PM
As a mother, I totally disagree with you Crow. Everyone knows that because I popped a baby out of my hoohah, I am an expert on practically everything. ;D ;D ;D
I think I have this on a T-Shirt "Popped one out my hoohah! Expert at life!"
I get what Crow is saying, but I do agree with AD and Ali on the "there are some things you don't appreciate/really know until you're a parent." I don't think that's an elitist attitude, just a realistic one. People who have direct experience with something usual have better insight than people who don't have direct experience. I think the principle applies to anything, really.
Quote from: Ali on May 30, 2012, 10:14:31 PM
As a mother, I totally disagree with you Crow. Everyone knows that because I popped a baby out of my hoohah, I am an expert on practically everything. ;D ;D ;D
I am consumed by hoohah envy.
Quote from: En_Route on May 31, 2012, 12:30:48 AM
Quote from: Ali on May 30, 2012, 10:14:31 PM
As a mother, I totally disagree with you Crow. Everyone knows that because I popped a baby out of my hoohah, I am an expert on practically everything. ;D ;D ;D
I am consumed by hoohah envy.
It's not all it's cracked up to be.
Quote from: Ali on May 30, 2012, 09:10:29 PM
. . . until those heathens at Ben & Jerry's come up with more genitalia-centric ice cream names.
Wait, what?
Quote from: Crow on May 30, 2012, 10:09:32 PM
"Oh my son can count to 5", "well mine can count to 6" I don't give a shit and they are both ugly.
Oh, the times I've wished for the guts to say that. ;D
Being a parent doesnt make your opinion worth more. :(
On topic: these control freaks piss me off so freaking much. If they want to be closed minded fools,they can be. But i am proud of DC for growing some nerves and stop being so behind in times.
Marvel has had openly gay heroes for a,while now.
Quote from: En_Route on May 31, 2012, 12:30:48 AM
Quote from: Ali on May 30, 2012, 10:14:31 PM
As a mother, I totally disagree with you Crow. Everyone knows that because I popped a baby out of my hoohah, I am an expert on practically everything. ;D ;D ;D
I am consumed by hoohah envy.
I hear that all the time.
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on May 31, 2012, 03:47:48 AM
Quote from: Ali on May 30, 2012, 09:10:29 PM
. . . until those heathens at Ben & Jerry's come up with more genitalia-centric ice cream names.
Wait, what?
QuoteOh, the times I've wished for the guts to say that. ;D
Last time I heard something about OMM, they were protesting Ben & Jerry's "Schweddy Balls" ice cream.
Quote from: Ali on May 31, 2012, 05:14:38 AM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on May 31, 2012, 03:47:48 AM
Quote from: Ali on May 30, 2012, 09:10:29 PM
. . . until those heathens at Ben & Jerry's come up with more genitalia-centric ice cream names.
Wait, what?
QuoteOh, the times I've wished for the guts to say that. ;D
Last time I heard something about OMM, they were protesting Ben & Jerry's "Schweddy Balls" ice cream.
I remember that.
They seriously need to get a fucking life. Glad i am not so bored, i want to demand my worthless opinion be made law.
Oh no, homosexual heroesin comics and mildly funny ice cream names are sooo offensive.
Let's not protect our children from real things like drugs and lack of gun control.
Quote from: Sweetdeath on May 31, 2012, 05:07:14 AM
Being a parent doesnt make your opinion worth more. :(
I would say no, in general, it certainly doesn't. Having said that, I will admit that, as DJ mentioned, when it comes to some
specific parenting issues, I do tend to give more weight to people who have actually gone through those issues (either as a parent or as a child care provider, or something like that) than someone who has never been through it. Just as I do for other issues. For example, if I was looking for advice on a specific thing in NYC, I would give your opinion more weight than someone who had never been to NYC, because you live there.
Quote from: Sweetdeath on May 31, 2012, 05:07:14 AM
Being a parent doesnt make your opinion worth more. :(
It does in matters pertaining to parenting. I speak from experience. Before I had kids people who did have kids told me about what it was like to have kids. But NOTHING they told me really prepared me for what it's like to actually have kids. And sorry to say this but unless one does have kids one really cannot appreciate what it's like. That doesn't mean you can't have an opinion about it but I would hold Crow's, Ali's, AD's in higher regard on matters pertaining to children than I would somebody who did not.
It's a bit like comparing the opinion on warfare of two people, one who's never done it and one who has.
Quote from: Ali on May 31, 2012, 03:52:09 PM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on May 31, 2012, 05:07:14 AM
Being a parent doesnt make your opinion worth more. :(
I would say no, in general, it certainly doesn't. Having said that, I will admit that, as DJ mentioned, when it comes to some specific parenting issues, I do tend to give more weight to people who have actually gone through those issues (either as a parent or as a child care provider, or something like that) than someone who has never been through it. Just as I do for other issues. For example, if I was looking for advice on a specific thing in NYC, I would give your opinion more weight than someone who had never been to NYC, because you live there.
Quote from: Tank on May 31, 2012, 04:12:20 PM
Crow's, Ali's, AD's in higher regard on matters pertaining to children than I would somebody who did not.
I don't have a kid, I don't feel old enough to have one. The idea of me being a parent scares the crap out of me.
The reason I agree with SD is that every child is different so on matters concerning a parents own child then yeah they may have an opinion that is more valid, though they still might be totally wrong and end up with a child that resents them for their entire life. How many times do parents of the same child have totally differing views on what is the correct way to raise a child, and how different are siblings to each other whilst being raised. All children are different and therefore parents experiences will be different from child to child so why is a mothers opinion got more weight than that of a non-mother as the advice or opinion one mother holds is very rarely going to be the same as another mothers opinion.
Quote from: Crow on May 31, 2012, 06:27:17 PM
Quote from: Tank on May 31, 2012, 04:12:20 PM
Crow's, Ali's, AD's in higher regard on matters pertaining to children than I would somebody who did not.
I don't have a kid, I don't feel old enough to have one. The idea of me being a parent scares the crap out of me.
That you're aware of :D
Quote from: Crow on May 31, 2012, 06:27:17 PM
All children are different and therefore parents experiences will be different from child to child so why is a mothers opinion got more weight than that of a non-mother as the advice or opinion one mother holds is very rarely going to be the same as another mothers opinion.
I wouldn't say very rarely. I think that there are usually common threads in common experiences. It's certainly true that what works with one child may not be true for another, but I would say that general trends are easy enough to pick up on. And experience is still going to give me more to think about than opinion. For example, I am anti-spanking. I have never spanked T or hit him in any way, and I plan to never spank or hit him in anyway. When someone who has never had kids tells me that my kid is going to grow up to be a rotten disrespectful brat unless I spank him, I take that with a grain of salt, since they haven't actually had the experience of raising a kid and trying spanking or not spanking as a discipline method. Certainly, they are welcome to their opinion, but that doesn't mean I'm going to give it a ton of weight. On the other hand, one of my friends has a son about the same age as my son, and she and her husband do spank (very sparingly), and we've talked about why, and how and I understand her reasoning. I'm still not planning on spanking T, but I do give her words more weight and consideration because she's talking from her own experience rather than just blowing smoke out of her ass. ;D
I guessing your friend held that view before she had a child, and I am also guessing you held your view before you had a child? As well I am guessing that having a child cemented your view just as it did your friends?
But there are a lot of things that I was certain I was going to do before I had a kid that turned out to be the complete opposite after he was born. I was SURE I was going to breastfeed for a year. I read every conceivable thing about it and was determined that that was my angle. It didn't work out that way at all, because as much as you read about breastfeeding, it really does not compare to the actual experience. My husband and I also talked about having 6 kids at one point (ha!), which we've completely changed our minds about after actually having one. So, as a bunch of people have said now, childless people are certainly entitled to their opinion, but I probably wouldn't seek out someone who has never breastfed or someone who has never had kids to discuss breastfeeding or family size. That just makes sense to me. I wouldn't go to person who has never had pets to ask for their feedback on dog ownership either.
Point taken but thats not what I have an issue with as I completely agree thats if looking for advice its better to go to the one with experience. My main problem is with mothers (I only say mothers as i have yet to hear a father do this yet and obviously isn't all mothers) who use there motherhood as a way to try and add importance to a social issues that don't really have anything to do with being a child bearer. Take how one million moms got "Jesus Dress Up" pulled from Urban Outfitters, Urban Outfitters don't even sell children's clothes.
(PS - Oh wait a sec there is a one million dads organization, changed from mums to parents.)
Quote from: Ali on May 31, 2012, 06:45:21 PM
Quote from: Crow on May 31, 2012, 06:27:17 PM
All children are different and therefore parents experiences will be different from child to child so why is a mothers opinion got more weight than that of a non-mother as the advice or opinion one mother holds is very rarely going to be the same as another mothers opinion.
I wouldn't say very rarely. I think that there are usually common threads in common experiences. It's certainly true that what works with one child may not be true for another, but I would say that general trends are easy enough to pick up on. And experience is still going to give me more to think about than opinion. For example, I am anti-spanking. I have never spanked T or hit him in any way, and I plan to never spank or hit him in anyway. When someone who has never had kids tells me that my kid is going to grow up to be a rotten disrespectful brat unless I spank him, I take that with a grain of salt, since they haven't actually had the experience of raising a kid and trying spanking or not spanking as a discipline method. Certainly, they are welcome to their opinion, but that doesn't mean I'm going to give it a ton of weight. On the other hand, one of my friends has a son about the same age as my son, and she and her husband do spank (very sparingly), and we've talked about why, and how and I understand her reasoning. I'm still not planning on spanking T, but I do give her words more weight and consideration because she's talking from her own experience rather than just blowing smoke out of her ass. ;D
I am staunchly of the view that spanking under the age of 18 is unacceptable.
Quote from: Ali
Last time I heard something about OMM, they were protesting Ben & Jerry's "Schweddy Balls" ice cream.
"Available in both pints and Scoop Shops, this flavor is Fair Trade vanilla ice cream with a hint of rum and is loaded with fudge covered rum and milk chocolate malt balls."
Anybody who objects to that is truly mad.
Quote from: Crow on May 31, 2012, 07:33:34 PM
Point taken but thats not what I have an issue with as I completely agree thats if looking for advice its better to go to the one with experience. My main problem is with mothers (I only say mothers as i have yet to hear a father do this yet and obviously isn't all mothers) who use there motherhood as a way to try and add importance to a social issues that don't really have anything to do with being a child bearer. Take how one million moms got "Jesus Dress Up" pulled from Urban Outfitters, Urban Outfitters don't even sell children's clothes.
(PS - Oh wait a sec there is a one million dads organization, changed from mums to parents.)
Some, (not all), mothers think popping a ;ic out their vagina automatically makes them better than people (like myself) who choose not to have children.
Everyone can have an opinion, i guess...
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on June 01, 2012, 02:37:12 AM
Quote from: Ali
Last time I heard something about OMM, they were protesting Ben & Jerry's "Schweddy Balls" ice cream.
"Available in both pints and Scoop Shops, this flavor is Fair Trade vanilla ice cream with a hint of rum and is loaded with fudge covered rum and milk chocolate malt balls."
Anybody tho objects to that is truly mad.
Seriously :<
I can see how a parent might be more knowledgeable about some things than I. But I was a child. I was parented. And there are some things that I have very strong opinions on based on the parenting that was done to me. For instance, I was never spanked. I turned out just fine. Many of my cousins on one side of my family were all spanked. They all are so messed up it hurts to think about it. So I feel very confident in my support for folks who don't spank. If a parent were to tell me that spanking was ok, I would feel very confident in argueing against them. My experience as a former-child doesn't back them up.
Just wanted to share that having been a child does have some weight in some discussions about parenting. :)
Carry on ...
Quote from: Traveler on June 01, 2012, 03:39:26 PM
I can see how a parent might be more knowledgeable about some things than I. But I was a child. I was parented. And there are some things that I have very strong opinions on based on the parenting that was done to me. For instance, I was never spanked. I turned out just fine. Many of my cousins on one side of my family were all spanked. They all are so messed up it hurts to think about it. So I feel very confident in my support for folks who don't spank. If a parent were to tell me that spanking was ok, I would feel very confident in argueing against them. My experience as a former-child doesn't back them up.
Just wanted to share that having been a child does have some weight in some discussions about parenting. :)
Carry on ...
With respect, your personal experiences as a child don't really prove anything in terms of the spanking controversy, no more than that of parents who have decided for and against smoking. At the end of the day, these are issues where we have to turn to objective evidence to really have a sensible discussion. Of course, that doesn't mean that there is a sufficient body of reliable evidence at hand nor does it mean that such evidence is not capable of yielding more than one potential inference. Personally, being a pacific sort of chap, I never relished the notion of inflicting physical pain on my kids.
Quote from: En_Route on June 01, 2012, 03:52:57 PM
Quote from: Traveler on June 01, 2012, 03:39:26 PM
I can see how a parent might be more knowledgeable about some things than I. But I was a child. I was parented. And there are some things that I have very strong opinions on based on the parenting that was done to me. For instance, I was never spanked. I turned out just fine. Many of my cousins on one side of my family were all spanked. They all are so messed up it hurts to think about it. So I feel very confident in my support for folks who don't spank. If a parent were to tell me that spanking was ok, I would feel very confident in argueing against them. My experience as a former-child doesn't back them up.
Just wanted to share that having been a child does have some weight in some discussions about parenting. :)
Carry on ...
With respect, your personal experiences as a child don't really prove anything in terms of the spanking controversy, no more than that of parents who have decided for and against smoking. At the end of the day, these are issues where we have to turn to objective evidence to really have a sensible discussion. Of course, that doesn't mean that there is a sufficient body of reliable evidence at hand nor does it mean that such evidence is not capable of yielding more than one potential inference. Personally, being a pacific sort of chap, I never relished the notion of inflicting physical pain on my kids.
Yeah agreed. I will say that I was spanked as a kid (and honestly didn't give whether or not I would spank a lot of thought until I was about to become a parent.) If I had never become a parent, never done a little research on the subject, and never had a child looking at me with those big sweet eyes that I was contemplating hitting, I probably would be of the opinion that spanking is just fine since my personal experience is that both my brother and I were spanked and we both grew up to be relatively sane and productive members of society. Nor do I harbor any ill will towards my parents for the spanking. They never went overboard, I always knew that I was loved, et cetera et cetera et cetera. My personal refusal to spank has little to do with my upbringing, and more to do with the fact that a) current parent-think seems to indicate that it is relatively ineffective, b) it seems unnecessary to me, I've never had to resort to hitting to get T's attention, and c) spanking makes very little sense to me. Like, you're not allowed to hit your employees or your husband or the lady who cut you off in traffic, not even "to teach them a lesson." So why are you allowed (and even somewhat expected!) to hit your kids? Because you're bigger than them? Smarter? Older? In a position of authority over? Those reasons would never stand up if they were anyone other than your kids, so why are kids the only exception? I honestly don't get it. And d) it's not in my nature to hit anyone. I can't even bring myself to (lightly) spank the dog, and she drives me nuts.
I'm afraid that I'm not quite horny enough to tap that. :(
No, my experiences as a child aren't enough for someone else to totally make a decisionon child-rearing. But when my experiences as a child are backed up by evidence, as my opinion on spanking is, then I feel quite confident in sharing those experiences as an example. We recently had a huge, pages-long discussion on spanking on another atheist board. It got quite heated at times, but the evidence seemed to all support non-violence, non-spanking as a healthier way to raise children.
Quote from: Ali on June 01, 2012, 05:38:09 PM
c) spanking makes very little sense to me. Like, you're not allowed to hit your employees or your husband or the lady who cut you off in traffic, not even "to teach them a lesson." So why are you allowed (and even somewhat expected!) to hit your kids? Because you're bigger than them? Smarter? Older? In a position of authority over? Those reasons would never stand up if they were anyone other than your kids, so why are kids the only exception? I honestly don't get it.
I believe the thinking here is that altho you can reason with adults, you can't use logic or reason with a young child, but they can understand physical punishment. A young child may remember a swat that keeps them away from something dangerous long after they've forgotten a "don't do that again".
The problem is that some adults don't know when to stop, or know the difference between a swat that's more startling than painful and a beating that leaves damage behind.
Quote from: BooksCatsEtcI believe the thinking here is that altho you can reason with adults, you can't use logic or reason with a young child, but they can understand physical punishment. A young child may remember a swat that keeps them away from something dangerous long after they've forgotten a "don't do that again".
This is what we thought. It's a dangerous world for a toddler, and you need to be able to make the little blighter stop instantly.
When ours were little, the woman next door couldn't stop her son running out into the road between parked cars. It was a great game to him; luckily he never got run over. She used to tell us how lucky we were that ours were well-behaved. In the end I told her, gently, that there was no luck in it - it was discipline. "Oh! But aren't you afraid of stifling their individuality?"
That's (one of the reasons) why I don't really get down on my friend that spanks. I realize that discipline is important, and that there isn't a one size fits all answer for kids; they're all so different that what works for one may not work for another. My friend's son doesn't respond to other forms of discipline, just doesn't seem care about the other tactics they have tried, which is why they spank. It's really the only thing that gets his attention. T has a different sort of temperament. I wouldn't say that he could be "reasoned with" especially as a toddler, but he was and is very eager to please, so that was easy to use to get him to do what we wanted. When he did need some form of discipline, he acts like time outs and being sent to his room are the very worst things that could happen to a kid, and he remembers it later, so that has been effective enough.
Discipline is definitely important; especially from a safety point of view. I just don't think that (depending on the kid) spanking is the only form of discipline that "takes"; even for a toddler.
Quote from: AliI just don't think that (depending on the kid) spanking is the only form of discipline that "takes"; even for a toddler.
Maybe not - I have only my own experience to go on, so I can't argue. I know that my grandson wasn't smacked, and his parents had a lot of problems which we thought could have been avoided by the occasional smack. Not that we ever said so.
Quote from: OldGit on June 05, 2012, 02:45:19 PM
Quote from: AliI just don't think that (depending on the kid) spanking is the only form of discipline that "takes"; even for a toddler.
Maybe not - I have only my own experience to go on, so I can't argue. I know that my grandson wasn't smacked, and his parents had a lot of problems which we thought could have been avoided by the occasional smack. Not that we ever said so.
Hahahaha, my parents totally have to bite their tongues when the topic of disciplining T has come up. They've never said either, but I know that internally they are totally rolling their eyes. ;D
Ah, yes. We're just getting to the age where disciplining our little guy is becoming a thing. I don't imagine that we'll ever need to swat/spank our guy. As it is, whenever we give him time-out he comes back in sobs with his little arms out-stretched and a "I'm so sorry, I'll never do it again" expression. He's usually a pretty good listener, too. When we say "don't touch that" or "give that here", he listens 9 times out of 10, so I just don't feel like it's necessary to take it to the "next level", as it were.
My sister, on the other hand, she has a daughter the same age as our boy and she's devilish! When I was home a few weeks ago she'd get into something and if you told her to stop she'd just look up at you, grin the most devilish grin, and keep right on doing it. She is definitely a more "push the boundaries" kid than our guy.
Yeah, T was/is (usually) a pretty good listener and (usually) does what we ask without a lot of drama, so we've never been inclined to up the ante. He's a sensitive little guy that can't stand to think that anyone is "mad at him" (in fact, I think that will be a separate issue that we have to work on as he grows up, learning to stand up for himself and not "people-please" simply to avoid having people be mad at him.) Point being, every kid has their own challenges and personalities, and some of them respond better to different styles of parenting and discipline.
BCE - thinking about what you said about not being able to reason with toddlers, that still doesn't sound like an okay excuse. If I was caring for an elderly person with Alzheimer's that was too confused to be reasoned with, would it be acceptable for me to start hitting them to get them to do what I say? Probably not. That's what saying when I say that I don't understand the social mores behind spanking. If it was anyone other than kids, the onus would be on me to find a better way of getting my point across or find someone to help me if I couldn't, rather than resort to getting physical, right? But when it comes to kids, for some reason, it's okay. And I do get that society says it's okay, and that lots of kids get spanked and they are just fine and don't seem to be any worse for the wear and actually benefit from it as opposed to if the alternative was no discipline at all. Like I said, I was spanked, and I don't hold it against my parents and I'm as normal as anyone I suppose. But some corner of my psyche honestly cannot wrap itself around the exception of physically hitting kids. I'm not kidding when I say that I don't get it. My brain literally does not understand it. I'm not being cute, it literally does not compute. In the spirit of full disclosure, my therapist tells me I have a habit of thinking too much in absolutes. This is most likely an example of that.
Quote from: Ali on June 05, 2012, 09:05:16 PM
Yeah, T was/is (usually) a pretty good listener and (usually) does what we ask without a lot of drama, so we've never been inclined to up the ante. He's a sensitive little guy that can't stand to think that anyone is "mad at him" (in fact, I think that will be a separate issue that we have to work on as he grows up, learning to stand up for himself and not "people-please" simply to avoid having people be mad at him.) Point being, every kid has their own challenges and personalities, and some of them respond better to different styles of parenting and discipline.
BCE - thinking about what you said about not being able to reason with toddlers, that still doesn't sound like an okay excuse. If I was caring for an elderly person with Alzheimer's that was too confused to be reasoned with, would it be acceptable for me to start hitting them to get them to do what I say? Probably not. That's what saying when I say that I don't understand the social mores behind spanking. If it was anyone other than kids, the onus would be on me to find a better way of getting my point across or find someone to help me if I couldn't, rather than resort to getting physical, right? But when it comes to kids, for some reason, it's okay. And I do get that society says it's okay, and that lots of kids get spanked and they are just fine and don't seem to be any worse for the wear and actually benefit from it as opposed to if the alternative was no discipline at all. Like I said, I was spanked, and I don't hold it against my parents and I'm as normal as anyone I suppose. But some corner of my psyche honestly cannot wrap itself around the exception of physically hitting kids. I'm not kidding when I say that I don't get it. My brain literally does not understand it. I'm not being cute, it literally does not compute. In the spirit of full disclosure, my therapist tells me I have a habit of thinking too much in absolutes. This is most likely an example of that.
Your therapist is presumably warning you against "black and white thinking" one of the many cognitive elephant traps that tend to interfere with our equinamity. Against that, the instinctive and unequivocal recoil from hitting your kids is part of your psychological make-up (as it is of mine) and you have to run with that. The danger lies in assuming that your instinctive repugnance for corporal punishment sets a universal moral standard. I'd add, that while I think there is no doubt that corporal punishment does not automatically have damaging consequences, I nevertheless think there are convincing and objective arguments for banning it.
Well, fuck me sideways and call me a flounder! ... ... >:(
Does any one take that coffee club seriously? Any one at all?