Happy Atheist Forum

I read a post on these forums that greatly disturbed me. I decided to make a new topic, because I don't want it to be percieved as a personal attack. I want to discuss and get feedback, not fight. So, if you recognize where the subject matter of this post comes from, or were the OP of the other post, my intent is not to offend.

I think most of us (excluding the thumpers) feel it's a disservice, if not downright abuse, to fill a child's head with religious nonsense. Dawkins makes this argument in "The God Delusion" but he's just reiterating something I've felt for quite some time.

The only reasonable thing to do, in my opinion, is to teach your child that these are things that SOME people believe (expose them to all religions, I say. They get a better grasp on the fact that religion is just cultural mythology that way.), and let them decide when they are of an age to come to a reasoned conclusion on their own.

When I see a child "evangelize" or sing nauseating hymns, or wear cute plastic dynamite jackets, I know that I'm seeing a child parroting the beliefs of their parents. Like marionettes, I can see the parents pulling the strings. These children didn't come up with this stuff on their own, they were brainwashed. Most of them don't even understand the ramifications of what they are saying.

Now, that being said, do you think that the same concept holds true for political beliefs? I am of the opinion that it is the exact same concept.

If I were confronted with a child doing an "anti-Karl Rove" dance, I'd immediately know I was witnessing a parroting of the political dogma of this child's elders. Instead of amusement, I'd be slightly disgusted, as when children parrot religious dogma.

I see this quite a bit amonst the children of my atheist friends. They are quick to tell you that the story of Noah is just that, a story, but in almost the same breath will tell you that George Bush is, without a doubt, the worst president in our history. Not one shred of evidence, they have no clue what his policies are, but they "know" that he's the worst. I know where that child's parents stand on political issues.

What do you think?

By the by, I'm not a supporter of either of the "Big 2" American political parties, so children spouting ANY political party's talking points is equaly disturbing to me.

To be perfectly frank, many adults are far too impressionable to be exposed to religion and politics. Anything, really. I would assume everyone on this forum came to the decision to be an atheist after some serious consideration, which qualifies us as critical thinkers. Many people out there, including children, simply don't have the critical thinking skills to operate in the worlds of politics or religion.

Personally, I don't see a huge difference between a child with a Bush shirt on and an adult with a Bush shirt on. Neither has the intellectual technologies to deal with the elements out there that seek to control people.

As a side note, I would be a big supporter of legislation to get the age to vote reduced to 12.

I agree with you on the brainwashing point.  I know I've mentioned this on another thread, but I always get from my devout Catholic mother than I'm "indoctrinating" our son in atheism but when religious people take their kids to church, Sunday School, Vacation Bible School, etc., they're just "sharing their beliefs" with their kids.

I don't sit my son down and make him recite paragraphs from "The God Delusion" like they do the bible; we haven't made him do art projects based on paragraphs in "Don't Think of an Elephant."  They do that and much more.

My husband and I are ardent liberals and atheists and it's inevitable that our son hears us discuss our various issues with religion and politics.  He will say he's an atheist, but he doesn't really know what it MEANS (he's 7 and extremely gifted).

We are faced with a LOT of brainwashed kids here... yes, we're in Oregon, but we're in the fundie heart of Oregon, surrounded by believers of every stripe... and their kids parrot everything they hear.

He goes to a Charter school here in Oregon, and it's held in the classrooms at a church.  There are MANY fundie Christians (or as the hubby calls them, "fundie-christs") in the school and most of them will admit the fact that the school is held in a church is the reason they are there.  The school is technically a public school but we do pay a small fee for extras (field trips, art program, music... extras... sigh) but when I keep bringing up the fact that the bulletin board in the lunchroom that is adorned with bible quotes must be covered up, I'm met with this:  "Our school is held in a church and if you have a problem with the religious stuff, maybe you should find another school."   :evil:   I nearly lost my lunch.  I mentioned it to her later.  She wanted to be able to pray with the kids before school, before each lesson, before and after play periods and lunch and at the end of the day and when she asked me, "Don't you agree?"  I said, "No, I don't... they and you can pray all you want... just not organize it with the children."  She was a little put out that I didn't agree with her.

This past year, he had a non-believer for a teacher... yes, I was tickled to death.  She touched on evolution as a side note to a lesson and one of the rainbow kids stood up ( :shock: ) and said, "Evolution is a lie... God created everything on earth as you see it right now."  The teacher (did I mention I love her?) said, "Yes, that is one thing that some people believe..." and continued with the lesson.  These were first graders!!!   :x  :D  :D

RE: the OP here and the anti-Karl Rove dance... I don't see that as brainwashing really... I have friends whose 7 year old son is very precocious and a very early reader... his favorite magazine?  TIME.  His favorite subject?  The war in Iraq.  He's more informed about it than I am.  I know his parents very well... very tree-hugger types, very mellow.  I don't know that he's brainwashed necessarily... but he does pay attention to every little thing.  
 
But I'd teach my son an anti-Karl Rove dance myself if I knew he'd use it only at home around us.  LOL!  But he's prone to showing off what he learns and it would come back to bite me on the butt.   :o

I'd take my daughter out of that school and hit them with a lawsuit. Public schools cannot be religious.

Ronald Reagan was the worst President, followed by Bush the Younger, Nixon, Hoover, and the Johnsons(1860s and 1960s, no relation).  

I don't really mind a kid doing an anti-Karl Rove dance, or a pro-Karl Rove dance... I hate kids, so either way I'd dislike them.

Quote from: "Willravel"I'd take my daughter out of that school and hit them with a lawsuit. Public schools cannot be religious.

For now, I'll contact the ACLU if I want to push it.  Above the bulletin board is a HUGE 6' wooden cross that is mounted permanently on the wall.  I don't really care about the cross, quite frankly, if they'd just cover up the bulletin board.  The cross is a symbol I can live with but the hateful filth they call bible quotes is much more offensive to me.

My son and I butt heads like crazy or I'd homeschool him.  The Charter School has the ability to give him work two grades above his actual grade without bumping him up, something the regular public school won't even entertain.  So... it's the Charter or homeschool, and while we did homeschooling for pre-school (he was reading at age 3), homework these days is a hairpulling, screaming, begging, bribing affair and I'd hate to see what homeschooling would be like.  Ugh.   :roll:

Quote from: "donkeyhoty"Ronald Reagan was the worst President, followed by Bush the Younger, Nixon, Hoover, and the Johnsons(1860s and 1960s, no relation).  

Oh my... you are my hero!  I'm the child of a man who thought Nixon was the greatest president ever, followed very closely by Reagan.  Yeah, I know... it's my personal shame.   :D  :lol:   That was me before the shock that is my son... it's so nice to know I'm among friends.   :lol:

I think that it is natural that parents try to teach their children, what they think is right or wrong. Only when they press it  to hard, I'd call it  indoctrination or brainwashing. My father was also not pleased when my older brother and I rebelled against his socialist's views, but (in the end) he respected our different opinions I'm not an expert on american politics (until last week I'd never heard of Karl Rove), but I must admit that I find your current president one of the worst in history. I don't like Billy Carter much either, but I do have some respect for Richard Nixon, Ronald Reagan and Bill Clinton. Note however that I mainly know your presidents for their foreign policies.

Hi Tom62 - it was actually "Jimmy Carter".  He was a peanut farmer - and that's kinda cool, right?  :wink:

Personally, I think our current president has gone down hill.  Admittedly he was dealt a hell of a hand of cards when the Trade Center came down, but yeah - right now I'm not a fan myself, but I think history will have to decide whether or not he was the worst.  In other words, what happens under him is part of what happened before him, and what happens to the next guy (or gal) will be affected by what is happening now.  I view these presidents as part of a continuum - they don't really have unlimited power, and they are constrained in what they can and cannot do (by world events, public opinions which baffle me, congress, party pressure, allies, etc.).  So I try to judge them on the decisions that they make and the environment in which they are making them.  I think they could all have used some improvements  :wink:  

Anyway, MikeyV, I too see disturbing parallels between politics and religion.  In this 2 party system of ours, I find it humorous how proponents often defend everything done by one party, and condemn everything done by the other.  This is ridiculous to me.  And, of course, I agree wholeheartedly that children have no clue and are, in fact, echoing the opinions of their parents.  At least young children anyway.  Or old dumb children (aren't all adults just old children, hahaha!  Helps me explain human behavior by thinking of them that way....)

QuoteHi Tom62 - it was actually "Jimmy Carter".

Billy Carter was the President's brother, famous for...

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As for parents brainwashing their children with their political notions, I can only say that I was spared that horror.  Having Catholicism shoved down my throat was enough, thank you very much.  

I don't think my parents vote.  I vote but I usually regret that I have to choose between the lesser of two bad candidates, and the third party candidate never has a chance to win.  Sigh.  What's a Libertarian to do?

Quote from: "MommaSquid"What's a Libertarian to do?

Vote for the losing candidate, and then when things go to hell, you can always say, "well, I didn't vote for this president, so don't blame me!"

 :wink:

Billy beer - hmmm, if he actually brewed it himself, then I'd probably like this guy.  Although, just from looking at it, it doesn't inspire confidence that the beer is any good --- looks like megaswill to me  :lol:

Quote from: "MommaSquid"Hi Tom62 - it was actually "Jimmy Carter".

Yes you are right it was Jimmy Carter.  Jimmy was the peanut guy. I'm getting old, my memories are failing..... That reminds me by the way about some horrible Alzheimer's disease  jokes.

Jc recently ripped W a new one!

I'm disgusted when I see children parroting political and religous views of their parents (when they are so twisted). But, I think kids (although I have none) start off as minature versions of their parents before growing into themselves. My mom raised me as a Jehovah's Witness. I parroted that until I felt brave enough to voice my true opinions (and moved out). My dad raised me as a Republican. I parroted that until I went to my liberal college.

When I see a child crazed with religion, I feel disgusted and sad. But, I just tell myself that they WILL grow up in ten years and gain enough knowledge so that they can question the world around them.

My mom raised me as a Jehovah's Witness. I parroted that until I felt brave enough to voice my true opinions (and moved out). My dad raised me as a Republican. I parroted that until I went to my liberal college.

When I see a child crazed with religion, I feel disgusted and sad. But, I just tell myself that they WILL grow up in ten years and gain enough knowledge so that they can question the world around them.[/quote]


I totally argree with you, I was raised as a Mormon...(people tend to put mormons and JW in the same boat) and raised as a very Limbaugh/bush/republican too and look at me now!!! We all grow up and hopefully kids now will do the same.

woops I tried to quote ya there Bella sorry

And then I watch "Jesus Camp" and I don't know if those kids WILL grow out of their brainwashing.  It's too complete by that point, especially with Mom homeschooling them, telling them dinosaurs lived with Adam and Eve and that evolution is a hoax.

Quote from: "a_jaynepayne"woops I tried to quote ya there Bella sorry

Hehe, I was like, "Ohhh! ME TOO! Oh... wait... she was quoting me." Hehe

rlrose, that Jesus Camp video definately creeped me out! Some of those kids are going to become normal, some may just tone it down, and the rest... serial killers.

yeah i think after seeing that video there is a HUGE difference between being influenced and brainwashed.

It makes me sick. Teach the kid what you need to to keep him/her from killing him or herself and then let them alone. Let the kid figure out who they are. The parent only needs to be there as a sounding board. People that indoctrinate their kids are small-minded simpletons that only care about themselves.

Speaking from experience, indoctrinating a kid with religion is such a bad idea. I'm screwed up six ways from Sunday. Religion wasn't the only thing that screwed me up (evil stepdad and all of that), but I'd be a lot better off now if someone would have just told me the truth instead of telling that the shit I went thru as a kid had some sort of eternal meaning, only to find out that it's all bullshit.

Great, everything I trusted in as a kid -- god, family, country -- turns out to be a twisted, perverted lie. How could that mess with a guy's mind??  :bang:

Aw Steve.... I'm feel so bad to hear such desperation and sadness in your post.  I can see how all of that could mess up a guy's mind, honestly.  My parents indoctrinated me... brainwashed me... as well, but they were decent people who meant well.  

A lot of the judgemental crap my mom spewed all went away when she converted from Lutheran to Catholicism (a cult, as one scrapbooking gal told me).  Of course the dedication ceremony really screwed me up because she had to denounce any other beliefs she held before Catholicism... it left me sitting there thinking, "So everything you've told me and taught me about the Lutheran church for 30 years was a lie??"  She did a lot of backtracking but the damage was already done.  Not that I was a believer before that, but it went a long way toward cementing my non-belief even further.

My dad quite going to church when the elder committee he was on nearly came to blows over money... he said he could put up with that bullshit at home in his underwear, he didn't need to do it with all of them.  He only went back to listen to Mom's music programs at Christmas and Easter.  Mom asked him just a few months before he died if he was a believer and he looked at her like she was nuts and said, "Yes, of course... I just don't deal with idiots at churches."  Loved that old coot.  :(

You're mostly better now and, at least here, you're among friends who understand.  (((((hugs)))))

Thanks, Kerri. That means a lot to me. :pwese: *sniff*

Anonymity is a good thing. I'm not sure I could talk this way in person. I'm afraid I don't think anyone would care enough to listen. Anyway, I am getting better, and I'm glad I have a place where people understand.  But as Robert Frost once wrote; I have promises to keep, and miles to go before I sleep.

Love that quote!

I'm afraid I'm not anonymous, either here or IRL.  My life is an open book, much to my husband's dismay sometimes.     It it comes up in conversation, I sometimes find myself incapable of shutting up... the switch in me that controls the on/off is broken.  :-)

This forum has gone a long way toward helping me find peace.  As I've said a billion times, it would be so much easier to just believe... shut off the brain and just believe what I'm told with no worries.  But I'm not wired that way.  I dwell.  The only way I can survive is to let it all out sometimes.  I just always hope I'm with someone I can trust when I do.

Well, I guess I'm not strictly anonymous on the Internet, but I don't give out my last name and such, mostly because I don't want to be marketed to at home, and I don't want some loony sending me hate mail or something. But you know what I mean.

I'm kinda like you. I don't mind telling people what I think, and I'm always asking "why?" and "how?".And I find that beer and a little rum helps bring a little peace now and then. :lol:

Quote from: "rlrose328"... she converted from Lutheran to Catholicism...  

She converted, eh? That's a little unusual for a Lutheran. My mom was raised Lutheran, and even though she doesn't believe in god nowadays, she still thinks Catholicism is more evil than the "modest and pious" Lutheran church. It's funny how aspects of youthful indoctrination can stay with you, even after you've rejected most of what was taught.

It's a query to most people who learn of her "backwards" conversion.  But it had a natural progression... my dad was military and she played the organ and directed the choirs at the base chapel, both Protestant and Catholic.  As time passed, she just felt a connection to the Catholic service.  I mean, really... Lutheran is as close to Catholicism as you can get without the confession.  :-)

Quote from: "rlrose328"I mean, really... Lutheran is as close to Catholicism as you can get without the confession.  :-)

Ooo, them's fightin' words for my mother :lol:

I actually find the Catholic church much more interesting than the Lutheran one (I have a weird fascination with religion, religious myth, doctrine, and dogma. So much so, that I've debated going back to uni and studying it). I figure, if you're going to go to church, you may as well go for one that proclaims miracles and saints and still plays the whole supernatural game, right? Go big or go home, I say

I actually know a girl--eight years old, very bright and intelligent, and possibly the most adorable little girl ever--with a super-religious, fundamentalist mother.  They both live in Eastern Oregon after having moved there after the mother divorced her husband.  My mom and the girl's mom are best friends (despite my mom being agnostic), so she occasionally drives over there to visit her for a week or so.  One day she was over there and talking to the daughter, and the girl responded to something my mom had said with "Well, nobody's perfect.  Not even god is perfect."  The girl's mom heard the tail-end of the statement and asked her "Who's not perfect?" The girl said "God," and my mom said that her mom practically hit the roof, yelling that god was perfect, etc., etc., and basically reading her the riot act.  I wasn't there--I only heard about this second-hand--but if I had been I would have given the girl a cookie.  She may be being raised by a fundamentalist but I'm thinking there's hope for this kid yet if that's her attitude toward god and religion at the age of eight.

One of my good friends was also a Christian when she was in highschool (I've actually been friends with her since highschool), and presumably in her youth as well, and sometime in her 20s "de-converted" to atheism.

Wow, lots of fellow Oregonians here! I miss home!!!

Anyways, I have two little ones myself, 6 and 8.  Their mother and I are divorced, but I have them every weekend.  My girls go to a Christian youth group once a month (the mothers choice) and they have a good time.  They seem to enjoy the singing and games and such - it's more of a social thing for them.  

My girls know that I am Atheist and I explained to them what it means.  I made it very clear that I don't believe in any gods, but that I am not going to tell them what they should believe.  My girls and I are very close, so at least I know they won't buy it if they are told that Atheists are all evil devil worshippers.