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Some thoughts on racism

Started by Ecurb Noselrub, July 29, 2020, 03:08:52 PM

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Ecurb Noselrub

When the USA was founded, Thomas Jefferson wrote that "we hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal..."  This idea was the foundational concept of the nation, the one that justified rejection of totalitarianism, monarchy, religious oppression, and every other kind of inequality.  But, as we know, we never have lived up to that concept. Jefferson himself owned slaves, as did Washington and other founding fathers. Our innate tribalistic tendencies, ingrained in us through evolution, have made realization of the lofty ideal of equality very difficult.  Tribalism is why most people simply feel more comfortable around those who are like them. In the USA, it grew to the point where we tore each other apart in a civil war.  In his attempt to bring us back to our foundational principles, Lincoln reminded us that our founders were "dedicated to the proposition that all men were created equal." 

It is, I believe, the act of personal "dedication" to the principle of equality that provides the path forward toward actually achieving the ideal.  It should be what identifies a US citizen more than anything else - not race or religion or ethnicity or language or socio-economic status.  Without it, we cannot achieve our other foundational principle - liberty - as if we do not treat each other as equals, it is inevitable that we will limit the liberty of others.

So, what does "dedication" to this principle look like?  We start from the biological and psychological truth that tribalism is innate to our being.  If this is not overcome by conscious effort, it develops into racism.  Apparently, there are a lot of us who have not dedicated ourselves to this task.  A first step is to recognize the confirmation bias that goes into our view of others.  I am, by nature, more likely to take the crimes of blacks to confirm my tribalistic biases and to overlook the crimes of whites. Like an alcoholic that needs to recognize his own own disease, I must recognize my own tribalistic tendency toward confirmation bias. Learning to see things from the point of view of others and to understand their experiences is another step.  My point is that it take effort to overcome one's basic nature.  I think I've gone a long way, but I have a long way to go. 

Does anyone here have any thoughts on overcoming the inherent bias that comes from tribalism?

xSilverPhinx

Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 29, 2020, 03:08:52 PM
So, what does "dedication" to this principle look like?  We start from the biological and psychological truth that tribalism is innate to our being.  If this is not overcome by conscious effort, it develops into racism.  Apparently, there are a lot of us who have not dedicated ourselves to this task.  A first step is to recognize the confirmation bias that goes into our view of others.  I am, by nature, more likely to take the crimes of blacks to confirm my tribalistic biases and to overlook the crimes of whites. Like an alcoholic that needs to recognize his own own disease, I must recognize my own tribalistic tendency toward confirmation bias. Learning to see things from the point of view of others and to understand their experiences is another step.  My point is that it take effort to overcome one's basic nature.  I think I've gone a long way, but I have a long way to go. 

I agree with this. :this:

Flexing metacognitive muscles goes a long way in realising we have all sorts of biases and are tribalistic by nature. The more you think about your own thinking process, the more (hopefully) you will learn where and when you are less rational about certain topics and strive to fix that.

It also helps to widen one's horizons. If you're racist, interact more with people of a different ethnic groups. If you're a fanatical nationalist, talk to people from different countries. Shutting ourselves into our microcosms of existence doesn't help to fight the confirmation bias we're all wired to have. 

It helps to understand not only the 'other' but ourselves as well. However, some people are wired to be more open to new experiences than others. If the more fearful and conservative among us don't want to test new waters then how can the world ever change?  :-\

I am what survives if it's slain - Zack Hemsey


Ecurb Noselrub

Agreed. The problem is that giving in to one's own biases "feels good" and you feel justified and righteous.  The more you go down that path, the more racist you become, and there is, it seems, a point of no return.  You've sealed yourself off in a world that totally confirms and affirms your feelings, and you don't "dedicate" yourself to getting out of that box.  The deeper you are into that shuttered reality, the more difficult it is.  That's one reason it is so hard for Americans in the southern states to break out - they've been getting confirmation of their biases all their lives.

Legislation does help, as it forces people to act a particular way, to a degree, and that at least gets you on the right path. But that won't do the whole job - there has to be a personal commitment, which is why Lincoln's words in the Gettysburg Address are so important for US citizens.  He also had his own biases and harbored some racist feelings, but at least was able to rise above those to act properly, in the end.  You have to start taking steps in the right direction.

No one

Hating everyone is so much better!

It doesn't matter where you're from, what color your skin is, what sex you are, what sex you're attracted to, what invisible friend you have, or even how much money you have, if you're an asshat, you're a fucking asshat. Plain and simple.

Ecurb Noselrub

Quote from: No one on July 29, 2020, 08:09:00 PM
Hating everyone is so much better!

It doesn't matter where you're from, what color your skin is, what sex you are, what sex you're attracted to, what invisible friend you have, or even how much money you have, if you're an asshat, you're a fucking asshat. Plain and simple.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that everyone is an asshat?  A new nation - the United Asshats of the World?  It would be interesting to see what that nation's version of the Statue of Liberty would be.

No one

Humans are more alike then they let on.

At the end of the game, the king and the pawn go back in the same box.


Italian proverb

Icarus

Here is an article that fits with Ecurbs' original post.  There are a gazillion people out there who truly believe that white people are superior to "others".  I have long believed such stuff is an expression that reveals ignorance of history.  Or perhaps a misguided need to ignore anthropology and its' discoveries.

https://theconversation.com/white-supremacists-believe-in-genetic-purity-science-shows-no-such-thing-exists-146763

P.S. The Asian people in Atlanta and elsewhere did not cause the Covid pandemic.  Dumb ass honkies who refuse to wear their mask are far more culpable.

No one

If there was any thought involved, there wouldn't be any racism.

Randy

Ah how true that is. Of course the mob mentality don't think at all. They just go with the flow.
"Maybe it's just a bunch of stuff that happens." -- Homer Simpson
"Some people focus on the destination. Atheists focus on the journey." -- Barry Goldberg

Drich

Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 29, 2020, 03:08:52 PM
When the USA was founded, Thomas Jefferson wrote that "we hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal..."  This idea was the foundational concept of the nation, the one that justified rejection of totalitarianism, monarchy, religious oppression, and every other kind of inequality.  But, as we know, we never have lived up to that concept. Jefferson himself owned slaves, as did Washington and other founding fathers. Our innate tribalistic tendencies, ingrained in us through evolution, have made realization of the lofty ideal of equality very difficult.  Tribalism is why most people simply feel more comfortable around those who are like them. In the USA, it grew to the point where we tore each other apart in a civil war.  In his attempt to bring us back to our foundational principles, Lincoln reminded us that our founders were "dedicated to the proposition that all men were created equal." 

It is, I believe, the act of personal "dedication" to the principle of equality that provides the path forward toward actually achieving the ideal.  It should be what identifies a US citizen more than anything else - not race or religion or ethnicity or language or socio-economic status.  Without it, we cannot achieve our other foundational principle - liberty - as if we do not treat each other as equals, it is inevitable that we will limit the liberty of others.

So, what does "dedication" to this principle look like?  We start from the biological and psychological truth that tribalism is innate to our being.  If this is not overcome by conscious effort, it develops into racism.  Apparently, there are a lot of us who have not dedicated ourselves to this task.  A first step is to recognize the confirmation bias that goes into our view of others.  I am, by nature, more likely to take the crimes of blacks to confirm my tribalistic biases and to overlook the crimes of whites. Like an alcoholic that needs to recognize his own own disease, I must recognize my own tribalistic tendency toward confirmation bias. Learning to see things from the point of view of others and to understand their experiences is another step.  My point is that it take effort to overcome one's basic nature.  I think I've gone a long way, but I have a long way to go. 

Does anyone here have any thoughts on overcoming the inherent bias that comes from tribalism?

I think you are missing a key element to what Jefferson meant by all men. being male and 18 maybe all it takes now but was not the only qualification in his time. (see or google Victorian rules for men)

In short, for them in that period a being a man required that a male have accomplished and lived by certain rules. what Jefferson was saying any male who can meet the standards of being a man (church, husband of one wife, or widowed, accomplished in business trade or land owner) was enough to be counted in this new america.

We forget this is in stark contrast to 'men' who were born into their rights and privilege's. Jefferson is saying in america one is not born selectively by blood to have rights but rather all men/honorable men' should all have the same rights.

No one


Ecurb Noselrub

He said we are created equal, not that we have become equal by meeting certain standards.

Recusant

 Succinct, Ecurb Noselrub:thumbsup:
"Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I hold in veneration — courage, clear thinking, honesty, fairness, and above all, love of the truth."
— H. L. Mencken


Magdalena

Some thoughts on racism. :notsure:


QuoteThe first rioter sentenced for the US Capitol attack gets probation instead of prison time.

Morgan-Lloyd was initially accused of four federal crimes, but court filings indicate that she reached a deal with prosecutors, who recommended three years of probation, a $500 fine to cover damages to the Capitol complex, and 40 hours of community service.

I remember when the law stated that 3 felonies in your record meant, "three strikes, you're out." Or, a life sentence.  (We got rid of it because it wasn't fair.)

This person was charged with four federal crimes in one day and got probation.

I want to believe and hope that we strive to believe that all men are created equal and that the "compassion" that has been given to this person who was charged with 4 federal crimes, is also given to those with dark skin by the police and in court as well; however when you see stuff like that...
You know...


Reality is a bitch.

It doesn't look as if the majority believe and agree that all men are created equal. Maybe half of the nation believes it. The other half feels privileged.

"I've had several "spiritual" or numinous experiences over the years, but never felt that they were the product of anything but the workings of my own mind in reaction to the universe." ~Recusant

Icarus

Mags, it is sad to say that you are pretty much telling it like it is.