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US Supreme Court Leans Toward Repudiating Separation of Church and State

Started by Recusant, June 21, 2022, 08:14:31 PM

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Recusant

This item would fit well in the "Dominionists" thread, but I think it deserves its own topic.

The US right wing has been pushing toward a theocratic regime for some time, and making notable progress. Another step in the right direction. . .

"The Supreme Court tears a new hole in the wall separating church and state" | Vox

QuoteThe Supreme Court held on Tuesday that Maine must fund religious education as part of a school voucher program that pays tuition for students in rural parts of the state. In the process, the Court's decision in Carson v. Makin tears down one of the foundational rules separating church from state.

The decision was 6-3, along partisan lines.

The specific program at issue in Carson is unusual to Maine. About 5,000 students in Maine's most rural areas, where it is not cost-efficient for the state to operate a public school, receive tuition vouchers that can be used to pay for private education. Maine law provides that these vouchers may only be used at "nonsectarian" schools, not religious ones.

Carson struck down this law excluding religious schools from the Maine voucher program, and that decision could have broad implications far beyond the few thousand students in Maine who benefit from these tuition subsidies.

Not that long ago, the Court required the government to remain neutral on questions of religion — a requirement that flowed from the First Amendment's command that the government "shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion." In practice, that meant that the government could neither impose burdens on religious institutions that it didn't impose on others, nor could it actively subsidize religion.

Carson turns this neutrality rule on its head, holding that government benefit programs that exclude religious institutions engage in "discrimination against religion" that violates the Constitution.

[Continues . . .]


* * *


"Supreme Court Forces Maine to Fund Christian Schools, Undoing Centuries of Precedent" | American Atheists

Quote"The religious conservative majority on the Supreme Court is intent on placing the interests of Christians above all others, including individuals' fundamental rights," said Alison Gill, Vice President for Legal and Policy at American Atheists. "These justices will keep working at breakneck speed to undermine nondiscrimination protections, replace public education with a discriminatory religious 'education,' and force Americans to fund conservative Christianity and other religions. This will harm countless Americans, especially children."

"Extremists are weakening our democracy," said Nick Fish, president of American Atheists. "Calls to reform and expand the Court to limit the impact of its dangerous Christian nationalist wing will only grow louder, as the Supreme Court tries to establish what can only be described as a theocracy. Today's decision is appalling, but it isn't the first and it won't be the last."

"As Justice Sotomayor said in her dissent, 'the Court leads us to a place where separation of church and state becomes a constitutional violation.' Today it's public schools; tomorrow it will be abortion. Who knows what comes next? We are embarking on dangerous, uncharted territory," Fish added.

[Link to full article.]
"Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I hold in veneration — courage, clear thinking, honesty, fairness, and above all, love of the truth."
— H. L. Mencken


Dark Lightning

I get more disgusted with the SCOTUS every day. I'm OK here in California, but a lot of people aren't so fortunate.

billy rubin

theyre giving public money to students in religious private schools because they already give money to stidents in non religious private schools.

they say it isnt "cost efficient" to build public schools. bullshit. build the schools where the kids are. theyre not supposed to make a profit.

im against giving public money to any private schools at all. i think the solution is to build public schools. but if a secular school gets it, i dont think tberes a good reason to exclude religious schools from the program.

the answer is public education





more people have been to berlin than i have

Recusant

Quote from: billy rubin on June 21, 2022, 11:33:48 PMtheyre giving public money to students in religious private schools because they already give money to stidents in non religious private schools.

they say it isnt "cost efficient" to build public schools. bullshit. build the schools where the kids are. theyre not supposed to make a profit.

im against giving public money to any private schools at all. i think the solution is to build public schools. but if a secular school gets it, i dont think tberes a good reason to exclude religious schools from the program.

the answer is public education

The good reason is that in the US, government is secular by design. Therefore it should not be paying for religious institutions to indoctrinate children.
"Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I hold in veneration — courage, clear thinking, honesty, fairness, and above all, love of the truth."
— H. L. Mencken


No one

You are all upset, but you forget those mysterious ways and their magical reaching mitts.

You guessed it, the creator of all that there is, is concerned with a 240ish year old country and it's oh so special inhabitants. (Especially the pale ones that turn from milk to lobster in mere seconds)

billy rubin

yes, the US is secular by design, and the intent was to be neutral to all religions, or to no religions.

the pertinent phrase in tbe first constitutional amendment is ". . .  congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, nor prohibiting the free exercise thereof." the intent was to be even-handed.

i dont think public money should go to any private school, religious or secular. but to single out religious private schools for rejection when secular private schools get public money goes against the original intentions, i think.

maine is in a pickle. most of the school districts in tbe state have no public high schools at all, and they dont have the money to fund them. i think that that is the problem that needs to be addressed, and then cut all money from all private schools, charter, religious, secular-- all of them.

i think the first time a muslim family applies for money to fund a sharia-based private madrasa that the resulting uproar will likely solve this.


more people have been to berlin than i have

Asmodean

I don't think public money going to causes forwarded by various religious communities necessitates a "hole" in separation of church and state any more than taxing the churches would.

That is, however, predicated on every sort of religious persuasion within the boundaries of what's acceptable (As to exclude The Church Of Weekly virgin Sacrifice and other such bullshit what may and would creep out of the woodwork of my position) being treated equally. So if I can get government funding for my atheist club, then you should be able to for your Quran studies and she for her Bible camp and they for their whatever-it-is-Hindus do and so on and so forth.

I don't think government entities should fund such things at all, but if they do... It's "all" or "nothing."

Speaking of for-profit entities, if private schools in the US are such, I don't think the government should fund them except in a shareholder capacity. If you give a business ten percent of its value in public coin - then it should be a ten percent public business, no?
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.

billy rubin

i have just contacted the satanic church about membershiip.

they say they will get back to me


more people have been to berlin than i have

Asmodean

Start your own chapter. Demand public coin. If refused, sue their government behinds loudly.

Eh... Prolly a bad idea. Public opinion tolerates hypocrisy - as long as it goes their way.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.

billy rubin

the satanic temple people get a bad rsp.brcause people assume they we orship tje christian devil.

in fact its a secular bunch of atheists who promote a strict liberalism. i have never heard anything bsd about them except from people who make assumptions based on their name.


more people have been to berlin than i have

Asmodean

From what I know of it, Laveyan Satanism is an expression of "exclusive individualism." It's not a theistic religion, but rather, a rejection thereof as a part of rejection of social conformity.

There are worse things to practice, although joining a club - even that club - is hardly the pinnacle of individualism.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.

Recusant

If convenient, simply lie. All is forgiven when it's for the greater glory of the Christian god.

"Gorsuch Blasted After Photos Expose His Claims in High School Coach Praying Case Are a 'Flat Out, Knowing Lie'" | New Civil Rights Movement

QuoteMany people from legal experts to court watchers to journalists to ordinary Americans on social media are criticizing Justice Neil Gorsuch for his majority opinion in a decision siding with a former high school football coach. That coach sued after the school district ordered him to stop praying after every game at the 50-yard line. Justice Gorsuch's opinion, as many are noticing, appears to be based on facts that are false. Several are accusing Gorsuch of just plain lying.

Justice Gorsuch claimed the coach's First Amendment rights were violated, and that he was merely engaging in "quiet personal prayer" as he knelt.

Gorsuch uses the word "quiet" 14 times, as The Washington Post's Paul Waldman notes.

"Joseph Kennedy lost his job as a high school football coach because he knelt at midfield after games to offer a quiet prayer of thanks," Justice Gorsuch writes as he begins his majority opinion. "Mr. Kennedy prayed during a period when school employees were free to speak with a friend, call for a reservation at a restaurant, check email, or attend to other personal matters. He offered his prayers quietly while his students were otherwise occupied. Still, the Bremerton School District disciplined him anyway. It did so because it thought anything less could lead a reasonable observer to conclude (mistakenly) that it endorsed Mr. Kennedy's religious beliefs. That reasoning was misguided."

"The contested exercise here does not involve leading prayers with the team," Gorsuch continues (despite photos that appear to suggest otherwise), "the District disciplined Mr. Kennedy only for his decision to persist in praying quietly without his students after three games in October 2015."

These are the photos of Coach Kennedy that Justice Sonia Sotomayor included in her dissent:











[Continues . . .]
"Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I hold in veneration — courage, clear thinking, honesty, fairness, and above all, love of the truth."
— H. L. Mencken


Icarus

Verily I say unto you, Trump and McConnel must rightfully be sentenced to burn in hell.

Asmodean

Quote from: Icarus on June 29, 2022, 05:28:42 AMVerily I say unto you, Trump and McConnel must rightfully be sentenced to burn in hell.
On a other hand, they seem to be doing more god's work than many a professed believer, and if we remember the kind of gentleman god is... Well...

Just sayin'... In His divine company, some people would fit in better than others. He prolly likes Trump more than he does Jesus, son or no.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.

billy rubin

this football  prayer thing is exactly what separation of church and state was supposed to prevent.

he was not engaging in private exercise on the 50 yard line, he was making a prideful public display.

we get christian prayers all the time here at public events in appalachia, generally invoking jesus. but there are hindus, muslims, jews, and atheists in the schools who are expected to participate. not many, but somr


more people have been to berlin than i have