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Community => Social Issues and Causes => Topic started by: Ecurb Noselrub on July 29, 2020, 03:08:52 PM

Title: Some thoughts on racism
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on July 29, 2020, 03:08:52 PM
When the USA was founded, Thomas Jefferson wrote that "we hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal..."  This idea was the foundational concept of the nation, the one that justified rejection of totalitarianism, monarchy, religious oppression, and every other kind of inequality.  But, as we know, we never have lived up to that concept. Jefferson himself owned slaves, as did Washington and other founding fathers. Our innate tribalistic tendencies, ingrained in us through evolution, have made realization of the lofty ideal of equality very difficult.  Tribalism is why most people simply feel more comfortable around those who are like them. In the USA, it grew to the point where we tore each other apart in a civil war.  In his attempt to bring us back to our foundational principles, Lincoln reminded us that our founders were "dedicated to the proposition that all men were created equal." 

It is, I believe, the act of personal "dedication" to the principle of equality that provides the path forward toward actually achieving the ideal.  It should be what identifies a US citizen more than anything else - not race or religion or ethnicity or language or socio-economic status.  Without it, we cannot achieve our other foundational principle - liberty - as if we do not treat each other as equals, it is inevitable that we will limit the liberty of others.

So, what does "dedication" to this principle look like?  We start from the biological and psychological truth that tribalism is innate to our being.  If this is not overcome by conscious effort, it develops into racism.  Apparently, there are a lot of us who have not dedicated ourselves to this task.  A first step is to recognize the confirmation bias that goes into our view of others.  I am, by nature, more likely to take the crimes of blacks to confirm my tribalistic biases and to overlook the crimes of whites. Like an alcoholic that needs to recognize his own own disease, I must recognize my own tribalistic tendency toward confirmation bias. Learning to see things from the point of view of others and to understand their experiences is another step.  My point is that it take effort to overcome one's basic nature.  I think I've gone a long way, but I have a long way to go. 

Does anyone here have any thoughts on overcoming the inherent bias that comes from tribalism?
Title: Re: Some thoughts on racism
Post by: xSilverPhinx on July 29, 2020, 03:32:27 PM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 29, 2020, 03:08:52 PM
So, what does "dedication" to this principle look like?  We start from the biological and psychological truth that tribalism is innate to our being.  If this is not overcome by conscious effort, it develops into racism.  Apparently, there are a lot of us who have not dedicated ourselves to this task.  A first step is to recognize the confirmation bias that goes into our view of others.  I am, by nature, more likely to take the crimes of blacks to confirm my tribalistic biases and to overlook the crimes of whites. Like an alcoholic that needs to recognize his own own disease, I must recognize my own tribalistic tendency toward confirmation bias. Learning to see things from the point of view of others and to understand their experiences is another step.  My point is that it take effort to overcome one's basic nature.  I think I've gone a long way, but I have a long way to go. 

I agree with this. :this:

Flexing metacognitive muscles goes a long way in realising we have all sorts of biases and are tribalistic by nature. The more you think about your own thinking process, the more (hopefully) you will learn where and when you are less rational about certain topics and strive to fix that.

It also helps to widen one's horizons. If you're racist, interact more with people of a different ethnic groups. If you're a fanatical nationalist, talk to people from different countries. Shutting ourselves into our microcosms of existence doesn't help to fight the confirmation bias we're all wired to have. 

It helps to understand not only the 'other' but ourselves as well. However, some people are wired to be more open to new experiences than others. If the more fearful and conservative among us don't want to test new waters then how can the world ever change?  :-\

Title: Re: Some thoughts on racism
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on July 29, 2020, 05:22:59 PM
Agreed. The problem is that giving in to one's own biases "feels good" and you feel justified and righteous.  The more you go down that path, the more racist you become, and there is, it seems, a point of no return.  You've sealed yourself off in a world that totally confirms and affirms your feelings, and you don't "dedicate" yourself to getting out of that box.  The deeper you are into that shuttered reality, the more difficult it is.  That's one reason it is so hard for Americans in the southern states to break out - they've been getting confirmation of their biases all their lives.

Legislation does help, as it forces people to act a particular way, to a degree, and that at least gets you on the right path. But that won't do the whole job - there has to be a personal commitment, which is why Lincoln's words in the Gettysburg Address are so important for US citizens.  He also had his own biases and harbored some racist feelings, but at least was able to rise above those to act properly, in the end.  You have to start taking steps in the right direction.
Title: Re: Some thoughts on racism
Post by: No one on July 29, 2020, 08:09:00 PM
Hating everyone is so much better!

It doesn't matter where you're from, what color your skin is, what sex you are, what sex you're attracted to, what invisible friend you have, or even how much money you have, if you're an asshat, you're a fucking asshat. Plain and simple.
Title: Re: Some thoughts on racism
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on July 29, 2020, 08:24:47 PM
Quote from: No one on July 29, 2020, 08:09:00 PM
Hating everyone is so much better!

It doesn't matter where you're from, what color your skin is, what sex you are, what sex you're attracted to, what invisible friend you have, or even how much money you have, if you're an asshat, you're a fucking asshat. Plain and simple.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that everyone is an asshat?  A new nation - the United Asshats of the World?  It would be interesting to see what that nation's version of the Statue of Liberty would be.
Title: Re: Some thoughts on racism
Post by: No one on July 29, 2020, 08:31:18 PM
Humans are more alike then they let on.

At the end of the game, the king and the pawn go back in the same box.


Italian proverb
Title: Re: Some thoughts on racism
Post by: Icarus on March 20, 2021, 07:19:52 PM
Here is an article that fits with Ecurbs' original post.  There are a gazillion people out there who truly believe that white people are superior to "others".  I have long believed such stuff is an expression that reveals ignorance of history.  Or perhaps a misguided need to ignore anthropology and its' discoveries.

https://theconversation.com/white-supremacists-believe-in-genetic-purity-science-shows-no-such-thing-exists-146763

P.S. The Asian people in Atlanta and elsewhere did not cause the Covid pandemic.  Dumb ass honkies who refuse to wear their mask are far more culpable.
Title: Re: Some thoughts on racism
Post by: No one on March 20, 2021, 07:26:01 PM
If there was any thought involved, there wouldn't be any racism.
Title: Re: Some thoughts on racism
Post by: Randy on March 20, 2021, 11:41:17 PM
Ah how true that is. Of course the mob mentality don't think at all. They just go with the flow.
Title: Re: Some thoughts on racism
Post by: Drich on July 14, 2021, 07:02:38 PM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 29, 2020, 03:08:52 PM
When the USA was founded, Thomas Jefferson wrote that "we hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal..."  This idea was the foundational concept of the nation, the one that justified rejection of totalitarianism, monarchy, religious oppression, and every other kind of inequality.  But, as we know, we never have lived up to that concept. Jefferson himself owned slaves, as did Washington and other founding fathers. Our innate tribalistic tendencies, ingrained in us through evolution, have made realization of the lofty ideal of equality very difficult.  Tribalism is why most people simply feel more comfortable around those who are like them. In the USA, it grew to the point where we tore each other apart in a civil war.  In his attempt to bring us back to our foundational principles, Lincoln reminded us that our founders were "dedicated to the proposition that all men were created equal." 

It is, I believe, the act of personal "dedication" to the principle of equality that provides the path forward toward actually achieving the ideal.  It should be what identifies a US citizen more than anything else - not race or religion or ethnicity or language or socio-economic status.  Without it, we cannot achieve our other foundational principle - liberty - as if we do not treat each other as equals, it is inevitable that we will limit the liberty of others.

So, what does "dedication" to this principle look like?  We start from the biological and psychological truth that tribalism is innate to our being.  If this is not overcome by conscious effort, it develops into racism.  Apparently, there are a lot of us who have not dedicated ourselves to this task.  A first step is to recognize the confirmation bias that goes into our view of others.  I am, by nature, more likely to take the crimes of blacks to confirm my tribalistic biases and to overlook the crimes of whites. Like an alcoholic that needs to recognize his own own disease, I must recognize my own tribalistic tendency toward confirmation bias. Learning to see things from the point of view of others and to understand their experiences is another step.  My point is that it take effort to overcome one's basic nature.  I think I've gone a long way, but I have a long way to go. 

Does anyone here have any thoughts on overcoming the inherent bias that comes from tribalism?

I think you are missing a key element to what Jefferson meant by all men. being male and 18 maybe all it takes now but was not the only qualification in his time. (see or google Victorian rules for men)

In short, for them in that period a being a man required that a male have accomplished and lived by certain rules. what Jefferson was saying any male who can meet the standards of being a man (church, husband of one wife, or widowed, accomplished in business trade or land owner) was enough to be counted in this new america.

We forget this is in stark contrast to 'men' who were born into their rights and privilege's. Jefferson is saying in america one is not born selectively by blood to have rights but rather all men/honorable men' should all have the same rights.
Title: Re: Some thoughts on racism
Post by: No one on July 14, 2021, 07:06:32 PM
Bullshit, asstard!
Title: Re: Some thoughts on racism
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on July 16, 2021, 02:37:58 AM
He said we are created equal, not that we have become equal by meeting certain standards.
Title: Re: Some thoughts on racism
Post by: Recusant on July 16, 2021, 03:23:44 AM
 Succinct, Ecurb Noselrub.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Some thoughts on racism
Post by: Magdalena on July 16, 2021, 08:16:24 AM
Some thoughts on racism. :notsure:


QuoteThe first rioter sentenced for the US Capitol attack gets probation instead of prison time.

Morgan-Lloyd was initially accused of four federal crimes, but court filings indicate that she reached a deal with prosecutors, who recommended three years of probation, a $500 fine to cover damages to the Capitol complex, and 40 hours of community service.

I remember when the law stated that 3 felonies in your record meant, "three strikes, you're out." Or, a life sentence.  (We got rid of it because it wasn't fair.)

This person was charged with four federal crimes in one day and got probation.

I want to believe and hope that we strive to believe that all men are created equal and that the "compassion" that has been given to this person who was charged with 4 federal crimes, is also given to those with dark skin by the police and in court as well; however when you see stuff like that...
You know...
(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/AdeptEmotionalAmethystsunbird-size_restricted.gif)

Reality is a bitch.

It doesn't look as if the majority believe and agree that all men are created equal. Maybe half of the nation believes it. The other half feels privileged.
Title: Re: Some thoughts on racism
Post by: Icarus on July 17, 2021, 04:11:27 AM
Mags, it is sad to say that you are pretty much telling it like it is. 
Title: Re: Some thoughts on racism
Post by: Magdalena on August 20, 2022, 12:33:21 AM

"Just comply, huh?"
(https://c.tenor.com/e9hKskmqaawAAAAC/nodding-kermit.gif)
Title: Re: Some thoughts on racism
Post by: Recusant on August 30, 2022, 06:58:45 AM
I appreciate Ari Melber's work. Trumpists and fellow travellers don't have any interest in what he's saying though. 
Title: Re: Some thoughts on racism
Post by: Magdalena on August 30, 2022, 08:24:29 AM
Quote from: Recusant on August 30, 2022, 06:58:45 AMI appreciate Ari Melber's work. Trumpists and fellow travellers don't have any interest in what he's saying though. 

Yes, this is why they continue to give alternative facts.


 ;)
Title: Re: Some thoughts on racism
Post by: Magdalena on August 30, 2022, 08:28:59 AM
"Hunting people."
Title: Re: Some thoughts on racism
Post by: No one on August 30, 2022, 11:56:41 AM
Humans are such easy prey, it's not really "hunting".
Title: Re: Some thoughts on racism
Post by: Asmodean on August 30, 2022, 11:57:37 AM
Quote from: Magdalena on July 16, 2021, 08:16:24 AMIt doesn't look as if the majority believe and agree that all men are created equal. Maybe half of the nation believes it. The other half feels privileged.
I neither believe it nor agree with it at face value.

The statement "all men are created equal" is false in the sense that some are born with physical and/or mental handicaps. Others are born to parents who suck at parenting. Others still are born into poverty. Others are born to just ye regular normal parents - in central Mongolia. The list of "creation stories" is pretty much as long as the list of people thusly created. So, one has to ask, equal how?

One answer is that in a "civilised" society, every citizen of said society is created as a legal equal to every other citizen - what one may and may not do, another may and may not the same. There are exceptions; children cannot vote, for example, and for that they get a few rights the adults don't have. Still, if that's all there is to equality, then what's the problem?
Title: Re: Some thoughts on racism
Post by: No one on August 30, 2022, 01:32:39 PM
Death is the great equalizer.

It doesn't give a single flying fuck about any mental/physical issues. Nor does it care about your shitty parents, or your fortune, or any of your human bullshit.

When it's time to go, it's time to go.
Title: Re: Some thoughts on racism
Post by: Magdalena on August 30, 2022, 07:03:52 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on August 30, 2022, 11:57:37 AM
Quote from: Magdalena on July 16, 2021, 08:16:24 AMIt doesn't look as if the majority believe and agree that all men are created equal. Maybe half of the nation believes it. The other half feels privileged.
I neither believe it nor agree with it at face value.

The statement "all men are created equal" is false in the sense that some are born with physical and/or mental handicaps. Others are born to parents who suck at parenting. Others still are born into poverty. Others are born to just ye regular normal parents - in central Mongolia. The list of "creation stories" is pretty much as long as the list of people thusly created. So, one has to ask, equal how?

One answer is that in a "civilised" society, every citizen of said society is created as a legal equal to every other citizen - what one may and may not do, another may and may not the same. There are exceptions; children cannot vote, for example, and for that, they get a few rights the adults don't have. Still, if that's all there is to equality, then what's the problem?

We are all equal because we are all made of star stuff. Oxygen, carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen, calcium, and phosphorus.
But some started nit-picking as soon as we came out of the uterus just to support, justify, and enforce their sense of superiority and entitlement. That's the problem.

 :reading: --Just my opinion.

Don't wish to engage in an "unnecessarily argumentative" conversation. Thank you.  ;D
Title: Re: Some thoughts on racism
Post by: billy rubin on August 31, 2022, 02:50:29 AM
fucking pigs.
Title: Re: Some thoughts on racism
Post by: Dark Lightning on August 31, 2022, 03:31:59 AM
Quote from: Magdalena on August 30, 2022, 07:03:52 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on August 30, 2022, 11:57:37 AM
Quote from: Magdalena on July 16, 2021, 08:16:24 AMIt doesn't look as if the majority believe and agree that all men are created equal. Maybe half of the nation believes it. The other half feels privileged.
I neither believe it nor agree with it at face value.

The statement "all men are created equal" is false in the sense that some are born with physical and/or mental handicaps. Others are born to parents who suck at parenting. Others still are born into poverty. Others are born to just ye regular normal parents - in central Mongolia. The list of "creation stories" is pretty much as long as the list of people thusly created. So, one has to ask, equal how?

One answer is that in a "civilised" society, every citizen of said society is created as a legal equal to every other citizen - what one may and may not do, another may and may not the same. There are exceptions; children cannot vote, for example, and for that, they get a few rights the adults don't have. Still, if that's all there is to equality, then what's the problem?

We are all equal because we are all made of star stuff. Oxygen, carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen, calcium, and phosphorus.
But some started nick-picking as soon as we came out of the uterus just to support, justify, and enforce their sense of superiority and entitlement. That's the problem.

 :reading: --Just my opinion.

Don't wish to engage in an "unnecessarily argumentative" conversation. Thank you.  ;D

NVM.
Title: Re: Some thoughts on racism
Post by: Asmodean on August 31, 2022, 07:32:30 AM
Quote from: Magdalena on August 30, 2022, 07:03:52 PMWe are all equal because we are all made of star stuff. Oxygen, carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen, calcium, and phosphorus.
But some started nit-picking as soon as we came out of the uterus just to support, justify, and enforce their sense of superiority and entitlement. That's the problem.

 :reading: --Just my opinion.

Don't wish to engage in an "unnecessarily argumentative" conversation. Thank you.  ;D
No problem. I can accept belonging to the same species as an answer - or being constructed of the same materials, or even out of a nebula of a single dead star.

I actually have no point beyond this; there are ways, in which we are equal. There are others, in which we are not. It is no more self-evident that we should be equal in the latter, than that we should not in the former.

Quote from: No one on August 30, 2022, 01:32:39 PMDeath is the great equalizer.
Personally, I think any sort of social equality does not apply to dead people, although... Some dead people are William Shakespeare while others are Joe Neerdowell. Still, whatever legacy they may have is not applicable to their perspective as they simply don't have one anymore.

Huh... I may want to philosophize a bit on this whole death as an equaliser thing. I mean, yes. But no. But... Yes?
Title: Re: Some thoughts on racism
Post by: No one on August 31, 2022, 02:14:12 PM
I am not talking about social equality. Death itself is the great equalizer.
Death does not give a shit about your social savvy, who you think you are, how much better you believe yourself to be than the worthless droves of peasants beneath you.

When it comes time to pay the piper, all your narcissistic ideologies are exposed for the absolute absurdities that they are. All your accolades, awards, and triumphs, will not earn you 1 second more.
Title: Re: Some thoughts on racism
Post by: Asmodean on August 31, 2022, 03:04:59 PM
Quote from: No one on August 31, 2022, 02:14:12 PMI am not talking about social equality. Death itself is the great equalizer.
Death does not give a shit about your social savvy, who you think you are, how much better you believe yourself to be than the worthless droves of peasants beneath you.

When it comes time to pay the piper, all your narcissistic ideologies are exposed for the absolute absurdities that they are. All your accolades, awards, and triumphs, will not earn you 1 second more.
Reality... In my experience, it's rarely as simple as the proverbs would have us believe. This is what I'm trying to explore.

What you describe is death as in the process of dying, as opposed to death as in the state of not being alive. Nothing wrong with that - it's just that I would have worded the proverb more precisely, as its accuracy depends on what you mean by "death." It is what it is though. Me, I prefer my own version; Death is the only inescapable result of life. That goes both to dying and being dead.

Dying is its own can of worms though, because indeed who you are can have a lot to say in how many "seconds more" you get when the bills come due. You may die of malaria at the age of fourteen - or you may survive lung cancer at the age of 68. You may blow your brains out with a deer slug or get tortured to death by a villainous psychopath. You may die alone or surrounded by people to whom you matter.

There is a certainty in the outcome - you no longer being alive, no matter how or when, but by then, if there is such thing as equality, your legacy kinda' has to come into play since you do not have... Well, thoughts, for one. And if that happens, one thing "we" are not, is equal. Legacies come in all shapes and sizes and relative importance.
Title: Re: Some thoughts on racism
Post by: No one on August 31, 2022, 07:03:39 PM
My point is, death comes for everyone. Everyone. When the time comes, the time comes. Nothing you ever did, will change that.
Title: Re: Some thoughts on racism
Post by: billy rubin on August 31, 2022, 08:25:52 PM
you can walk in front of a bus to alter the schedule
Title: Re: Some thoughts on racism
Post by: Asmodean on August 31, 2022, 08:32:17 PM
Indeed. You can alter the schedule both ways on many occasions; think of that lung cancer sufferer from above. He could jump off somewhere high onto something hard, accelerating "the schedule," or he could do all sorts of surgery and medication and postpone the due date.

Oh, he'll die eventually, but that just speaks to the inevitability of death - not it's equalizing attributes. Yeah, everyone dies... Each in his own way.
Title: Re: Some thoughts on racism
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on August 31, 2022, 10:05:08 PM
Created equal, IMHO, refers to equal before the law and equal in value. You have no more nor fewer rights than the next person under the law. Slavery, for example, gave blacks fewer rights of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness than whites had. Therefore, it was inconsistent with the idea of equality.

Of course, I am not equal in basketball ability to Lebron James or acting ability to Tom Hanks. But we all should stand equally before the law, as citizens of equal worth.
Title: Re: Some thoughts on racism
Post by: Recusant on September 01, 2022, 06:32:59 AM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on August 31, 2022, 10:05:08 PMCreated equal, IMHO, refers to equal before the law and equal in value. You have no more nor fewer rights than the next person under the law. Slavery, for example, gave blacks fewer rights of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness than whites had. Therefore, it was inconsistent with the idea of equality.

Of course, I am not equal in basketball ability to Lebron James or acting ability to Tom Hanks. But we all should stand equally before the law, as citizens of equal worth.

Indeed and well said, Ecurb Noselrub. Other values for "equality" can be contentious, but the concept existing as a supposed guiding legal principle of government in the US and elsewhere is unequivocal.
Title: Re: Some thoughts on racism
Post by: Tank on September 01, 2022, 09:21:15 AM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on August 31, 2022, 10:05:08 PMCreated equal, IMHO, refers to equal before the law and equal in value. You have no more nor fewer rights than the next person under the law. Slavery, for example, gave blacks fewer rights of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness than whites had. Therefore, it was inconsistent with the idea of equality.

Of course, I am not equal in basketball ability to Lebron James or acting ability to Tom Hanks. But we all should stand equally before the law, as citizens of equal worth.

Well said.
Title: Re: Some thoughts on racism
Post by: Asmodean on September 01, 2022, 10:39:54 AM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on August 31, 2022, 10:05:08 PMOf course, I am not equal in basketball ability to Lebron James or acting ability to Tom Hanks. But we all should stand equally before the law, as citizens of equal worth.
That was the point I made when using legal equality in my initial answer to myself. Well, not the "equal value/worth" part, because... It's just not, by any sort of measurable criteria I can think of.

The law, however, should not be written to discriminate lords from peasants or men from women or such like. Children... Probably a necessary exception.

I see equality under the law to mean that whatever provisions apply to me, apply to every other citizen. Whatever rights I have - they have. Whatever obligations I have to the nation - they have.
Title: Re: Some thoughts on racism
Post by: MarcusA on June 23, 2023, 08:25:03 PM
Critical Race Theory is just plain bonkers.
Title: Re: Some thoughts on racism
Post by: Asmodean on June 23, 2023, 09:24:58 PM
Just so. :smilenod:
Title: Re: Some thoughts on racism
Post by: billy rubin on June 23, 2023, 10:40:12 PM
would youse please define critical race tbeory for me?

i do not understand what it is.
Title: Re: Some thoughts on racism
Post by: MarcusA on June 23, 2023, 11:50:09 PM
Critical Race Theory. If you're white, you're racist.
Title: Re: Some thoughts on racism
Post by: billy rubin on June 24, 2023, 12:03:13 AM
i dont think so.
Title: Re: Some thoughts on racism
Post by: No one on June 24, 2023, 01:25:53 AM
Only one race of people mucking about on the planet's face, the hooman one.

Title: Re: Some thoughts on racism
Post by: Icarus on June 24, 2023, 03:31:38 AM
Quote from: MarcusA on June 23, 2023, 08:25:03 PMCritical Race Theory is just plain bonkers.

I do not believe that you are in a position to comment on the American concept of CRT.

I presume that you have your own position with regard to the "aboes". I am not in a position to comment about Aussie Attitudes toward your Aboriginals. Therefore I will not comment about your countries historic treatment of the indigenous people.

 How about you lighten up with the one liners.  Instead, try to carry on a meaningful conversation with the rest of us.?  Not many of us are interested and some of us,including me, are annoyed by your continuous inconsequential posts. For the record we have some other Aussie members who contribute to our little group in an interesting or useful way. To their credit they do not tend to dominate the entire forum.  Surely you can participate in a normal fashion as well.



 
Title: Re: Some thoughts on racism
Post by: Dark Lightning on June 24, 2023, 03:39:01 AM
Quote from: Icarus on June 24, 2023, 03:31:38 AM
Quote from: MarcusA on June 23, 2023, 08:25:03 PMCritical Race Theory is just plain bonkers.

I do not believe that you are in a position to comment on the American concept of CRT.

I presume that you have your own position with regard to the "aboes". I am not in a position to comment about Aussie Attitudes toward your Aboriginals. Therefore I will not comment about your countries historic treatment of the indigenous people.

 How about you lighten up with the one liners.  Instead, try to carry on a meaningful conversation with the rest of us.?  Not many of us are interested and some of us,including me, are annoyed by your continuous inconsequential posts. For the record we have some other Aussie members who contribute to our little group in an interesting or useful way. To their credit they do not tend to dominate the entire forum.  Surely you can participate in a normal fashion as well.


Indeed.
 

Title: Re: Some thoughts on racism
Post by: MarcusA on June 24, 2023, 03:42:51 AM
In life, everything is related to me.
Title: Re: Some thoughts on racism
Post by: The Magic Pudding. on June 24, 2023, 04:46:04 AM
Quote from: Icarus on June 24, 2023, 03:31:38 AM
Quote from: MarcusA on June 23, 2023, 08:25:03 PMCritical Race Theory is just plain bonkers.

I do not believe that you are in a position to comment on the American concept of CRT.

I presume that you have your own position with regard to the "aboes". I am not in a position to comment about Aussie Attitudes toward your Aboriginals. Therefore I will not comment about your countries historic treatment of the indigenous people.

 How about you lighten up with the one liners.  Instead, try to carry on a meaningful conversation with the rest of us.?  Not many of us are interested and some of us,including me, are annoyed by your continuous inconsequential posts. For the record we have some other Aussie members who contribute to our little group in an interesting or useful way. To their credit they do not tend to dominate the entire forum.  Surely you can participate in a normal fashion as well.



 

I agree, his posts have the same value as a random nonsense generator, in the absence of real discussion they may start something. They must make the forum look a bloody mess, a spammer wouldn't have been allowed to do what he is doing.
Title: Re: Some thoughts on racism
Post by: Tank on June 24, 2023, 05:29:28 AM
Quote from: MarcusA on June 24, 2023, 03:42:51 AMIn life, everything is related to me.

No it fucking isn't. I am also getting seriously fed up with your pointless one line comments.
Title: Re: Some thoughts on racism
Post by: MarcusA on June 24, 2023, 06:35:57 AM
Lebensraum in the West Bank.
Don't tell me that the Jews are not acting like Nazis there.
Title: Re: Some thoughts on racism
Post by: Anne D. on June 24, 2023, 04:59:05 PM
Quote from: Icarus on June 24, 2023, 03:31:38 AM
Quote from: MarcusA on June 23, 2023, 08:25:03 PMCritical Race Theory is just plain bonkers.

I do not believe that you are in a position to comment on the American concept of CRT.

I presume that you have your own position with regard to the "aboes". I am not in a position to comment about Aussie Attitudes toward your Aboriginals. Therefore I will not comment about your countries historic treatment of the indigenous people.

 How about you lighten up with the one liners.  Instead, try to carry on a meaningful conversation with the rest of us.?  Not many of us are interested and some of us,including me, are annoyed by your continuous inconsequential posts. For the record we have some other Aussie members who contribute to our little group in an interesting or useful way. To their credit they do not tend to dominate the entire forum.  Surely you can participate in a normal fashion as well.



 


Wild applause.
Title: Re: Some thoughts on racism
Post by: billy rubin on June 24, 2023, 05:10:45 PM
marcus is okay. accept him for what he is --  a vast and churning idea generator. besides, i like his poetry.

but i am till interested in critical race theory. as i understand it, it is a fairly prescribed post-graduate curriculum that examines the role of race in politics and society in the united states.

im from oklahoma. this picture ws taken in 1910 about 50 miles from where i was born:

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9d/Lynching_of_Laura_and_L._D._Nelson%2C_25_May_1911%2C_photograph_2899.jpg)

laura and her son lawrence nelson.

notice the fancy clothes and the little white kids on the bridge?

in my country, the president of the united states lives in a big house built by slaves. the economy of half my coubntry was founded on slave laboutr. my great grandfather went to war on the side of the slaveholders, to keep the society intact that exploited both the slaves and his own family.

the disparity is self evident to me. i went to college in a town where twenty years before you would be arrested if you were caught inside city limits while black. or worse. (see the picture?) prosperous cities where i lived as a an adult had paved alleys in the white sections, and dirt roads in front of the houses in the black sections. black people were afraid to talk to me in stores, and would step away to let me go first if i walked in before they were checked out in cashier lines.

people would tell me nigger jokes to introduce themselves to me at parties. cops would sic their dogs on black people for fun, and would boast about it.

so just what is new in critical race theory? whats the big deal? acknowledging reality?

im not sure i will learn anything from it.
Title: Re: Some thoughts on racism
Post by: The Magic Pudding. on June 25, 2023, 02:50:12 AM
Quote from: billy rubin on June 24, 2023, 05:10:45 PMso just what is new in critical race theory? whats the big deal? acknowledging reality?

im not sure i will learn anything from it.

I suppose extremists will question the reality.
Isn't the question what you do about it?
Do you subsidise education based on economic status alone or  skew it on a racial basis?
I can see why you would but not everyone is going to like it, food for the culture wars.
Title: Re: Some thoughts on racism
Post by: MarcusA on June 25, 2023, 03:16:51 AM
Race is a bad thing to base anything on. Democracy is a meritocracy. Individual merit should not be overshadowed by any other considerations.
Title: Re: Some thoughts on racism
Post by: billy rubin on June 25, 2023, 03:38:09 AM
the current system was built on racial dispaity, with conscious bias based on race. racial dispar ity maintains it.

i would assist communities based on race unti l everybody has caught up. education, business loans, neighbourhood renewel.


once inequities are abolished, racially focused assistance can be abolished
Title: Re: Some thoughts on racism
Post by: The Magic Pudding. on June 25, 2023, 04:51:04 AM
Quote from: billy rubin on June 25, 2023, 03:38:09 AMthe current system was built on racial dispaity, with conscious bias based on race. racial dispar ity maintains it.

i would assist communities based on race unti l everybody has caught up. education, business loans, neighbourhood renewel.


once inequities are abolished, racially focused assistance can be abolished

Sure, morality/fairness aside having a racial underclass costs society, crime, imprisonment, underutilisation of resources.
For fairness, (as some subjectively judge it,) some care needs to be taken not to get too far out of balance, between helping different groups of poor. Do you give to middle class members of your target group and not to poor whites?

When Will Smith slapped that guy at the Oscars, I heard woke warriors discussing how it was due to historical white oppression.  Ye well maybe a bit but things can go too far, automatic blame of others doesn't seem healthy.
Title: Re: Some thoughts on racism
Post by: billy rubin on June 25, 2023, 12:02:32 PM


[/quote]
Quote from: The Magic Pudding. on June 25, 2023, 04:51:04 AM
Quote from: billy rubin on June 25, 2023, 03:38:09 AMthe current system was built on racial dispaity, with conscious bias based on race. racial dispar ity maintains it.

i would assist communities based on race unti l everybody has caught up. education, business loans, neighbourhood renewel.


once inequities are abolished, racially focused assistance can be abolished

Sure, morality/fairness aside having a racial underclass costs society, crime, imprisonment, underutilisation of resources.
For fairness, (as some subjectively judge it,) some care needs to be taken not to get too far out of balance, between helping different groups of poor. Do you give to middle class members of your target group and not to poor whites?

When Will Smith slapped that guy at the Oscars, I heard woke warriors discussing how it was due to historical white oppression.  Ye well maybe a bit but things can go too far, automatic blame of others doesn't seem healthy.


the devil is in the details, always. i would squarely targrt thr inequities, not the individuals and not based on race alone. im not interested in blame, just in fixing whatbis obviously wrong. i said i would use race as a criteria but only because those commumities are the ones lagging behind. there shouldnt be a race-based system, but ignoring race doesnt take into account thst it was race thst caused a olot of these problems in the first place.

for example, we have a problem with low wages because of low job opportunities. i would target al l communities that are on the bottom there and invest in ecucation, business, home ownership and job oppor tunities in those places preferentially. it would end up preferentially assisting the members of a racial underclass but not because of their skin color. rather, it would hel p them becsuse thry are the ones living where we are having the problem.

weve talked about reparations elsewhere i think. i am not in favour of payments to people, but i am in favur of programs aimed at large groups.
Title: Re: Some thoughts on racism
Post by: Icarus on June 26, 2023, 04:20:55 AM
Race is not only about black people it is also about anyone who is not us.

I now, ashamedly, live in Florida, my legislators and their leader DeSantis, have invented and installed several laws that will decimate the Hispanic immigrants and some who are legal citizens.  The new laws have caused a minor, even a major, exodus of those Hispanic immigrants. 

The problem is that we need those incredibly hard working people. They typically work in the agricultural, construction, and hospitality industries. More than a few of those industries will suffer serious harm because they will no longer have adequate labor force needed to continue in business.

Florida, for example, is the largest producer of Tomatoes in the the country. A local large ag firm that grows tomatoes, and employs more than 600 people, will go bust. Of course the cost of tomatoes will increase to an unaffordable level. That is just tomatoes. The roofing contractors will be devastated because their employees are mostly Mexican or Gautemolans. Concrete finishers too are largely Hispanic.

Our Republican legislator jack offs have shit in their, and my, own mess kits with their stupid attitudes toward the hardest workers in the whole country. What the dumbass legislators have ignored is the fact that the illegals and their families are responsible for generating 30 billion in tax revenue per annum. These people pay into the federal social security system but they do not qualify for return when they reach retirement age.

I am angry. My Repub legislators and their crackpot leader have shit for brains. One more thing! The Hispanics are not the habitual criminals that they are accused of being. Statistically their crime rate is less than the white crime rate per capita. Those Jesus freak legislators have done more harm that merely banning books. 
Title: Re: Some thoughts on racism
Post by: MarcusA on June 26, 2023, 05:31:05 AM
Might is always right be damned. Australia has refugees in indefinite detention because they're not white.
Title: Re: Some thoughts on racism
Post by: Asmodean on June 26, 2023, 07:48:49 AM
Quote from: Icarus on June 24, 2023, 03:31:38 AMI do not believe that you are in a position to comment on the American concept of CRT.
It's a bit like saying that only parents are in a position to opine on raising kids or that you need to be a bus driver to understand what it's like. Somewhat satisfying, but fallacious.

I am not American, and yet my opinion of critical race theory is probably more informed than that of many americans who also do have one. Conversely, if you want to opine on the politics surrounding Norwegian ethnic minorities, I welcome that conversation. If you are wrong and I know better, I'll just correct you, but you don't have to ever have set foot on the same continent as I to have a legitimate point of view, and perhaps one better informed than my own at that.

As for the content of critical race theory, I may or may not jump into it since a. it will require formidable walls of text and b. some people tend to get their undies all wedged into their butt crack when them grounds are not trodden like they were paved with egg shells. Not that I'm averse to drama, you see, but it's very time consuming and I'm what they call "lazy." :smilenod:
Title: Re: Some thoughts on racism
Post by: The Magic Pudding. on June 26, 2023, 10:19:39 AM
Quote from: Asmodean on June 26, 2023, 07:48:49 AM
Quote from: Icarus on June 24, 2023, 03:31:38 AMI do not believe that you are in a position to comment on the American concept of CRT.
It's a bit like saying that only parents are in a position to opine on raising kids or that you need to be a bus driver to understand what it's like. Somewhat satisfying, but fallacious.

I am not American, and yet my opinion of critical race theory is probably more informed than that of many americans who also do have one. Conversely, if you want to opine on the politics surrounding Norwegian ethnic minorities, I welcome that conversation. If you are wrong and I know better, I'll just correct you, but you don't have to ever have set foot on the same continent as I to have a legitimate point of view, and perhaps one better informed than my own at that.

As for the content of critical race theory, I may or may not jump into it since a. it will require formidable walls of text and b. some people tend to get their undies all wedged into their butt crack when them grounds are not trodden like they were paved with egg shells. Not that I'm averse to drama, you see, but it's very time consuming and I'm what they call "lazy." :smilenod:


That's right, those Americans are too close to the problem, you need an ocean between you and the issue to have proper perspective.

And parents, they by definition have been tricked by evolution into to having children, and in some cases even liking them.  They've had their heads totally screwed up, they can't possibly have a valid opinion.
Title: Re: Some thoughts on racism
Post by: Asmodean on June 26, 2023, 10:41:53 AM
Quote from: The Magic Pudding. on June 26, 2023, 10:19:39 AMThat's right, those Americans are too close to the problem, you need an ocean between you and the issue to have proper perspective.
That's not at all what I said though. You don't need to be an ocean away - you can make legitimate arguments from personal experience or from research - or both. At least, that is the case if by "proper" perspective you mean "legitimate," as opposed to "that, with which I agree."

QuoteAnd parents, they by definition have been tricked by evolution into to having children, and in some cases even liking them.  They've had their heads totally screwed up, they can't possibly have a valid opinion.
They can and often do, but then, so can I - If nothing else, for having been a child and being perfectly capable of reflecting on many of the things my own parents did correctly and the ways in which they wronged me. Personally, I prefer approaching such like from the application of intellect rather than "baggage," since the latter becomes less relevant on larger scales. However, on a micro-scale it can be as valid (perhaps more so) as the more "academic" approach.
Title: Re: Some thoughts on racism
Post by: Tank on June 26, 2023, 10:57:01 AM
Quote from: Icarus on June 26, 2023, 04:20:55 AMRace is not only about black people it is also about anyone who is not us.

I now, ashamedly, live in Florida, my legislators and their leader DeSantis, have invented and installed several laws that will decimate the Hispanic immigrants and some who are legal citizens.  The new laws have caused a minor, even a major, exodus of those Hispanic immigrants. 

The problem is that we need those incredibly hard working people. They typically work in the agricultural, construction, and hospitality industries. More than a few of those industries will suffer serious harm because they will no longer have adequate labor force needed to continue in business.

Florida, for example, is the largest producer of Tomatoes in the the country. A local large ag firm that grows tomatoes, and employs more than 600 people, will go bust. Of course the cost of tomatoes will increase to an unaffordable level. That is just tomatoes. The roofing contractors will be devastated because their employees are mostly Mexican or Gautemolans. Concrete finishers too are largely Hispanic.

Our Republican legislator jack offs have shit in their, and my, own mess kits with their stupid attitudes toward the hardest workers in the whole country. What the dumbass legislators have ignored is the fact that the illegals and their families are responsible for generating 30 billion in tax revenue per annum. These people pay into the federal social security system but they do not qualify for return when they reach retirement age.

I am angry. My Repub legislators and their crackpot leader have shit for brains. One more thing! The Hispanics are not the habitual criminals that they are accused of being. Statistically their crime rate is less than the white crime rate per capita. Those Jesus freak legislators have done more harm that merely banning books. 

Exactly the same with Brexit. Many companies in the agriculture and entertainment industries have been badly hit. The issue has been exacerbated by Covid. As the entertainment industry shut down people found other better jobs and didn't come back. On our recent holiday in Tenby, a seaside town totally reliant on visitors, every single shop and restaurant has signs in their windows advertising for staff. 
Title: Re: Some thoughts on racism
Post by: No one on June 26, 2023, 11:37:28 AM
Everyone bleeds red, everyone does, nobody is more important,or more special than anyone else.

Title: Re: Some thoughts on racism
Post by: billy rubin on June 26, 2023, 12:51:42 PM
so nobody can define CRT for me, in like, a paragrah?
Title: Re: Some thoughts on racism
Post by: No one on June 26, 2023, 12:58:09 PM
CRT is a college level course designed for law students.
Title: Re: Some thoughts on racism
Post by: No one on June 26, 2023, 01:01:50 PM
Basically, examining how certain social constructs are affected, and shaped by the society's view on ethnicity, skin color and such.
Title: Re: Some thoughts on racism
Post by: Asmodean on June 26, 2023, 01:15:10 PM
Quote from: billy rubin on June 26, 2023, 12:51:42 PMso nobody can define CRT for me, in like, a paragrah?
I can do that - shallowly.

It is a movement based around the idea that race is a socially constructed tool used to oppress people of colour. As No one pointed out, it is also a legal framework based on or around the aforementioned premise and the notion of "built-in" racism in law.

Quote from: No one on June 26, 2023, 11:37:28 AMEveryone bleeds red, everyone does, nobody is more important,or more special than anyone else.
And yet some people are more important than others, others are more special, and some are even both. There are ways of measuring such like. The only way to argue for everyone having the same value is to abstain from actual measurement or limit the scope of the statement. Granted, that's the feel-good go-to solution, but unless, as mentioned, you put some constraints on your statement, such as legal equality for citizens or such like, it does not stand up to scrutiny. There are people who buy more kilometers of new road for the wider society in a year than I am likely to in a lifetime. There are people who play videogames in their childhood room until they are forty, then drain the welfare system until they die. There are people who create new energy sources or modify new ones. There are people who beg for coins on street corners. While it may not be easy to assign specific value to any of them, there are certainly ways of assigning relative values against each other. You could for example weigh their contributions to innovation, current day running expenses, art, maintenance of the society... Such like.
Title: Re: Some thoughts on racism
Post by: No one on June 26, 2023, 01:31:26 PM
When death comes for those extra special really important people, how many more seconds will it buy them?
Title: Re: Some thoughts on racism
Post by: Asmodean on June 26, 2023, 01:33:13 PM
Seconds of what? Life? From none to decades. Lasting legacy? From none to millennia.
Title: Re: Some thoughts on racism
Post by: No one on June 26, 2023, 01:38:52 PM
When death comes for you, it's time to go. No matter who you are. You get zero more seconds. None. Hooman affairs matter little once you get outside their tiny arrogant bubble.
Title: Re: Some thoughts on racism
Post by: Asmodean on June 26, 2023, 01:56:52 PM
That is just incorrect. While a lot of people live in "barely post-Industrial" conditions, if that, postponing death has become something of an art in some parts of the world and for some levels of "special and important."

There are people who avoid death multiple times over the course of several decades - and the special and the important are usually far better positioned to do so than "the rest."

That said though, you have narrowed the scope of your statement and as such, it makes more overall sense if properly formulated. For example, "After the cessation of resuscitation attempts with no success, we are all just rotting meat."

EDIT: just for the sake of me being argumentative, even then we have different value. Some have stuff like useful lungs and kidneys what can be recycled. Some can be used to fertilise daisies. Some will "just" end up in a deep hole, or get cremated and dumped somewhere. There is different value to those outcomes in different respects.
Title: Re: Some thoughts on racism
Post by: Tank on June 26, 2023, 02:27:19 PM
Quote from: billy rubin on June 26, 2023, 12:51:42 PMso nobody can define CRT for me, in like, a paragrah?

I'm glad I'm not the only person who doesn't get it.
Title: Re: Some thoughts on racism
Post by: Asmodean on June 26, 2023, 02:34:54 PM
Oh, far from it. It's rather on the esoteric side as "scientific" litterature goes. Well, perhaps "esoteric" is not the correct term... Perhaps. It's more... Inconsistent, in a Post-Modernist sort of sense.

Actually, I'll permit myself to steal a quote from Marcus, who summed  it up rather neatly;

Quote from: MarcusA on June 23, 2023, 08:25:03 PMCritical Race Theory is just plain bonkers.
Title: Re: Some thoughts on racism
Post by: Tom62 on June 26, 2023, 03:08:08 PM
Quote from: Icarus on June 26, 2023, 04:20:55 AMRace is not only about black people it is also about anyone who is not us.

That statement is not correct. As far as I know, You  and I are members of the Caucasian race. That makes race something about you and me as well. And BTW, I've seen many examples of people, who are not like us, who made horrible racist remarks or act as racists.
Title: Re: Some thoughts on racism
Post by: No one on June 26, 2023, 03:47:03 PM
Asmo, let me know one person who stayed off death, when it was time to die. Whoever you think you are, it does not impress death one bit.
Title: Re: Some thoughts on racism
Post by: Asmodean on June 26, 2023, 09:37:36 PM
Death is not a conscious creature. It being "impressed" is an invalid statement. As for someone who avoided death, any gunshot victim who was successfully resuscitated, any near-drowning who got rescued, pretty much any cancer patient in long-term remission.

Or is it specific names you want, because I can find many. I even know someone who has been dead, and yet is very much alive today.
Title: Re: Some thoughts on racism
Post by: billy rubin on June 26, 2023, 10:18:38 PM
once i fell dpwn on my motorcycle at around 115 mph. didnt die, but got some serious road rash

havent fallen down since, but i go a lot faster
Title: Re: Some thoughts on racism
Post by: No one on June 27, 2023, 12:18:33 AM
Asmo, you are missing the point. No single hooman ever escapes death, ever. Whether you are a king, or a little street sweeper, you'll eventually dance with the reaper.

And one day, there will no longer be any hoomans and all their accomplishments, will ultimately fade away, as if they never were.
Title: Re: Some thoughts on racism
Post by: billy rubin on June 27, 2023, 12:44:28 AM
that is both true and is not a bad thing. we re all in a great circling dance, one without purpose, or significance beyond what we experience in the moment.

its neither good nor bad.

it simply is.

live in the moment, as much as you can, because moments are we have.
Title: Re: Some thoughts on racism
Post by: Asmodean on June 27, 2023, 08:03:09 AM
Quote from: No one on June 27, 2023, 12:18:33 AMAsmo, you are missing the point. No single hooman ever escapes death, ever. Whether you are a king, or a little street sweeper, you'll eventually dance with the reaper.
Thousands of people escape death every year.

I disagree that I am missing the point. I am working well within the scope of what is death (no heartbeat [logical-]or no brain activity) Your Scotsmen do not seem to ever be true, however. Mind you, I suspect that is simply due to your scope of definition being a special case of death, as I have outlined in a prior reply.