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General => Current Events => Topic started by: Recusant on October 02, 2017, 06:58:25 PM

Title: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Recusant on October 02, 2017, 06:58:25 PM
 It's not a Muslim? Ah well then, nothing to do but buy more guns and ammunition (https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2017/10/02/gun-stocks-rise-after-las-vegas-mass-shooting/722538001/), I guess.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Tank on October 02, 2017, 07:10:29 PM
My son's brother-in-law works in Vegas. We haven't heard from his ATM but he's not in that particular hotel and not a fan of country music so we're not that worried.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Davin on October 02, 2017, 07:39:07 PM
Damn it, it was almost a good time to talk about doing something about all these mass shootings. I guess we have to wait for a longer break in mass shootings before we can talk about what to do about all these mass shootings.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Papasito Bruno on October 02, 2017, 07:50:58 PM
You should sticky this thread Recusant, that way when the next mass shooting occurs here in a week or so we don't have to keep starting a new one...after the horror of Sandy Hook, and the mass shooting of children which occurred there we here in the good ole US of A decided that we didn't want or need to discuss or resolve this issue of mass shootings, that we were fine living with this type of horror in our lives, that children being massacred in safety of their school room was bearable.

So we did nothing.

And we won't do anything now either.





Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: joeactor on October 02, 2017, 08:12:54 PM
Quote from: Father Bruno on October 02, 2017, 07:50:58 PM
So we did nothing.

And we won't do anything now either.

I posted much the same on FB... Pathetic that nothing gets done.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Dave on October 02, 2017, 08:17:10 PM
Trump called it evil, I don't accept the concept of evil, I do however accept the concept of the sick mind. Trump, your citizens are in as much danger from home grown nutjobs as they are from immigrant nutjobs.

So, here was another sick mind in a society that seems to suffer a kind of mass mind sickness in too many of its members.

The argument, "The only way to defend against the bad person with a gun is to have lots of good people with guns." Onky trouble is it is aldo a society that seems to suffer greatly from mental illness, stress induced or otherwise. The sane gun owner if today might well be the insane one of tomorrow.

Then add in the whatever percentage of less than disciplined gun owners who kerp their guns in a handbag or unlocked bedside draw for any kid or visitor to find . . . Wiuld not be so badbifbprodoective gun purchasers hadvto attend evening school, twice a week for six months (including range work with street situations) , for instruction on safe ownership and use before being issued a permit to buy and own. At their own cost of course.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Sandra Craft on October 03, 2017, 05:02:34 AM
Quote from: Recusant on October 02, 2017, 06:58:25 PM
It's not a Muslim? Ah well then, nothing to do but buy more guns and ammunition (https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2017/10/02/gun-stocks-rise-after-las-vegas-mass-shooting/722538001/), I guess.

Gun and ammo buying has already spiked.  Apparently the only thing appropriate to do after a shooting is to gear up for the next one.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Recusant on October 03, 2017, 06:15:37 AM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on October 03, 2017, 05:02:34 AMGun and ammo buying has already spiked.  Apparently the only thing appropriate to do after a shooting is to gear up for the next one.

Well there's that, and blaming the shooting on antifa and/or Muslims (http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2017/oct/02/hoaxes-fake-news-about-las-vegas-massacre/). If you're really with the program you know that it was scripted by the Democratic party (https://www.avclub.com/alex-jones-is-back-on-his-bullshit-says-the-las-vegas-1819086361).
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Sandra Craft on October 03, 2017, 06:58:56 AM
Quote from: Recusant on October 03, 2017, 06:15:37 AM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on October 03, 2017, 05:02:34 AMGun and ammo buying has already spiked.  Apparently the only thing appropriate to do after a shooting is to gear up for the next one.

Well there's that, and blaming the shooting on antifa and/or Muslims (http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2017/oct/02/hoaxes-fake-news-about-las-vegas-massacre/). If you're really with the program you know that it was scripted by the Democratic party (https://www.avclub.com/alex-jones-is-back-on-his-bullshit-says-the-las-vegas-1819086361).

You know, the minute I heard the shooting was at a country music concert I knew the shooter would be tagged as a leftist.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Recusant on October 05, 2017, 05:09:17 AM
I'm not going to sticky this thread until the next one. And there will be a next one.  :-\

"It Doesn't Matter Why ******* ***** ******* Did It" | New York Magazine (http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2017/10/it-doesnt-matter-why-stephen-craig-paddock-did-it.html)

QuoteThe only hope for preventing mass shootings is to treat guns like any other public-health threat and build a strong body of research — but the Republican Party has seriously hamstrung any efforts to do that.

Because we can't predict who will commit a mass shooting, our only real hope of reducing the number and deadliness of such shootings is to better understand how guns "work" at a public-health level, and finding out policies that will reduce the odds of dangerous people getting guns, or at least getting the most deadly types of guns.

This is exactly the sort of task the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention would be well-suited for in any other situation. After all, it has a $7 billion annual budget and its entire mandate is to study threats to Americans' health and well-being. And the CDC did, for a while, study gun violence. That changed abruptly in 1996, when the National Rifle Association, as part of its remarkably successful decades-long effort to keep just about any meaningful national-level gun control off the table, successfully pressured congressional Republicans to strip the CDC of its gun-research funding and to effectively ban the agency from studying gun violence, or disbursing funds to researchers who want to do so.

Since its passage, the ban has led to tens of millions of dollars of lost research funding for one of the biggest public-health threats to American lives.

[. . .]

Naturally, this has had a stunting trickle-down effect on the national conversation about gun violence. "Because we don't know what works, we as a country are left in a shouting match," Dr. Mark Rosenberg, the president and CEO of the Task Force for Global Help and a former gun-violence researcher at the CDC, told me for a story I did on the ban in December of 2015 (http://nymag.com/scienceofus/2015/12/what-the-cdc-could-learn-about-gun-violence.html). "We get into these totally nonproductive shouting matches because nobody has the evidence ... and that's where we stand right now."

We know many of the key public-health questions about how gun violence works in the U.S.: What differentiates the sorts of people who are and aren't able to acquire weapons illegally? What sorts of temporary bans on gun ownership for people in states of severe psychological distress would, and wouldn't, help prevent deadly violence? And so on. But we are years, if not decades, behind on answering these questions because our own lawmakers have decided that the government should sweep them under the rug, rather than aggressively try to research answers to them — largely because the NRA is worried that the answer to some of these questions will be that tightening certain gun laws would make us all safer (a reasonable assumption in light of evidence from countries like Australia (http://nymag.com/scienceofus/2016/06/what-a-new-gun-control-study-can-and-cant-tell-us-about-mass-shootings.html)).

Again: It will be interesting, and useful in a certain, narrow sense, to find out why [shitbag's name] committed his heinous crime. But to focus too narrowly on the details is to miss the much more important, broader point: The U.S. is soaked in a great deal of what is likely unnecessary bloodshed because it refuses to do anything about its gun-violence epidemic. There's no cute or subtle way out of that fact, no insight waiting to be uncovered from poring over mass shooters' Facebook profiles or their texts with family members. We're stuck where we are, because of political choices we have made, and there doesn't appear to be any escape. Just more and more horror.

[Link to full article. (http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2017/10/it-doesnt-matter-why-stephen-craig-paddock-did-it.html)]

Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Sandra Craft on October 05, 2017, 08:57:47 AM
^^^ Well, that was depressing -- the one thing that might help is the one thing we're unwilling to do.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Davin on October 05, 2017, 03:40:55 PM
The majority of American is willing to allow common sense gun regulations. But politicians bribed by the NRA are against it. And the NRA misleads many people as well. And they have plenty of money to keep on doing it.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Papasito Bruno on October 05, 2017, 04:17:16 PM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on October 05, 2017, 08:57:47 AM
^^^ Well, that was depressing -- the one thing that might help is the one thing we're unwilling to do.

Yes I agree, it is horribly depressing, and we won't do anything because guns are such an interwoven part of the fabric of our culture. It's all about Guns, God, and Country, and I believe that order of relevance is correct...Guns are at the top of the USA's unfortunate and misguided Patriotism which is currently being fueled by the populace ideology that got Trump elected. However, it existed long before Trump, and it will sadly exists long after he's gone because it will alway's go hand in hand with the misguided and ridiculous Christian ideology this country runs on.


Gun shares this week are on the rise in the stock exchange, and the sale of the so called Bump-stock's are surging.
Bump-stock sales are surging after being used in the Las Vegas massacre
(https://www.rawstory.com/2017/10/bump-stock-sales-are-surging-after-being-used-in-the-las-vegas-massacre/)
QuoteThe Las Vegas shooting that left 58 people dead and more than 500 injured has placed new attention on the "bump-stock" device that Stephen Paddock had 12 of in order to enhance his semi-automatic rifle arsenal at the Mandalay Bay Hotel. In the wake of the massacre, sales of the modification that allows these weapons to fire like fully-automatic rifles have spiked—and in some cases bump-stocks are selling out.

This is what happens after everyone of these gun massacres as gun and ammunition sales go way up. This lines the pockets of not only the Gun Manufacturers, but the NRA as well as the elected officials who back and support them.


People like this Republican from South Dakota, Senator John Thune who blamed victims in Las Vegas for not taking better precautions.

QuoteThune shied away from the topic of gun control, arguing, "t's an open society and it's hard to prevent anything."

Instead, the Republican senator offered advice to potential victims.

"I think people are going to have to take steps in their own lives to take precautions," he opined. "To protect themselves. And in situations like that, you know, try to stay safe. As somebody said — get small."

He is of course a very religious man, a Protestant, who backed the "Religious Freedom Act", which allows Christians to openly discriminate against others...

What I know is this. Those here in America who espouse gun rights the most, who can look the other way when massacres such as this one occur are overwhelmingly Christian...they've got their stupid bible in one hand, and their killing machines in the other.
They care more about restricting access to birth control for woman and healthcare for everyone  than they do about tightening gun control laws that can save lives.

As Christian commentator Bill O'Reilly said.

QuoteThe Las Vegas massacre that left at least 58 dead is the price of freedom and gunmen who commit mass shootings have right to arm themselves"


Hell, Pat Robertson more or less said that God did it.

QuoteWHY IS IT HAPPENING?" HE ASKED. "THE FACT THAT WE HAVE DISRESPECT FOR AUTHORITY; THERE IS PROFOUND DISRESPECT FOR OUR PRESIDENT, ALL ACROSS THIS NATION THEY SAY TERRIBLE THINGS ABOUT HIM. IT'S IN THE NEWS, IT'S IN OTHER PLACES. THERE IS DISRESPECT NOW FOR OUR NATIONAL ANTHEM, DISRESPECT FOR OUR VETERANS, DISRESPECT FOR THE INSTITUTIONS OF OUR GOVERNMENT, DISRESPECT FOR THE COURT SYSTEM. ALL THE WAY UP AND DOWN THE LINE, DISRESPECT."

"UNTIL THERE IS BIBLICAL AUTHORITY," ROBERTSON CONTINUED, "THERE HAS TO BE SOME CONTROLLING AUTHORITY IN OUR SOCIETY AND THERE IS NONE. AND WHEN THERE IS NO VISION OF GOD, THE PEOPLE RUN AMOK ... AND WE HAVE TAKEN FROM THE AMERICAN PEOPLE THE VISION OF GOD,

We're a sick and fucked up country. A people who don't understand at all what the word "Freedom" really means.




Earlier this year I travelled with my wife to Honduras to visit her family and our friends who live there, and most folks here who when they heard I was about to travel there or had already visited ask, "Aren't you afraid to go there, it's such a dangerous country"?, and I respond back to them,..."And the USA isn't dangerous, are you kidding me"?


Modified 1x to add this, cuz' we're number 1!

(https://i.imgur.com/nwW8hLd.jpg)


Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Icarus on October 05, 2017, 11:41:05 PM
^ That graph makes me ashamed of a significant part of my society.  Say it ain't so........please.

If I use those numbers I get that  (3.6/0.04 = 90) we are ninety times less civilized than the citizens of the UK. and (3.6/0.01) =  360 times more irrational than the Japanese. 
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Dragonia on October 06, 2017, 03:23:59 AM
Here's my 2 cents worth (ok, maybe 15 cents) on this issue:
I feel like I don't fit in anywhere on the issue of guns. It seems like such an all-or-nothing issue.  I am not a member of the NRA, but I do believe that responsible, sane Americans should be allowed to own weapons.
Especially growing up in Alaska, and spending many years of my adult life there, a weapon equals food for your family, and protection for yourself and your family. We would have never gone on our trips into the woods without a gun. We never had to use ours, for protection or signalling, but we knew plenty of people who would have been dead without one.
I also support owning a weapon for self-or home-defense. Again, I have known a woman whose shotgun saved her life/health/property (she wasn't sure what the intruder was after,  only that he turned and ran when he saw the gun aimed at his head.)
These beliefs have gotten me sneered at and verbally jumped all over.
Now, I think it's wise and prudent to outlaw modifications on weapons, silencers, bum stocks (whatever it's called), among other stuff. I don't mind a limit on the number of weapons a person can own. I don't mind a mandatory waiting period before someone can purchase a gun. I support thorough background checks.
These beliefs have gotten me sneered at and verbally jumped all over.
Some new laws would be a logistical nightmare / witch hunt, trying to enforce the newly passed law, ie. limiting the number of weapons you can own. I have no idea how this would be accomplished and it could be that lawmakers are afraid of the uprising that instituting these laws would cause.
I feel like these issues are more complicated and possibly riotous than at first thought. Not saying we shouldn't try. Just saying I don't envy the enforcers.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Recusant on October 06, 2017, 04:40:33 AM
Quote from: Dragonia on October 06, 2017, 03:23:59 AM
Here's my 2 cents worth (ok, maybe 15 cents) on this issue:
I feel like I don't fit in anywhere on the issue of guns. It seems like such an all-or-nothing issue.  I am not a member of the NRA, but I do believe that responsible, sane Americans should be allowed to own weapons.
Especially growing up in Alaska, and spending many years of my adult life there, a weapon equals food for your family, and protection for yourself and your family. We would have never gone on our trips into the woods without a gun. We never had to use ours, for protection or signalling, but we knew plenty of people who would have been dead without one.
I also support owning a weapon for self-or home-defense. Again, I have known a woman whose shotgun saved her life/health/property (she wasn't sure what the intruder was after,  only that he turned and ran when he saw the gun aimed at his head.)
These beliefs have gotten me sneered at and verbally jumped all over.
Now, I think it's wise and prudent to outlaw modifications on weapons, silencers, bum stocks (whatever it's called), among other stuff. I don't mind a limit on the number of weapons a person can own. I don't mind a mandatory waiting period before someone can purchase a gun. I support thorough background checks.
These beliefs have gotten me sneered at and verbally jumped all over.
Some new laws would be a logistical nightmare / witch hunt, trying to enforce the newly passed law, ie. limiting the number of weapons you can own. I have no idea how this would be accomplished and it could be that lawmakers are afraid of the uprising that instituting these laws would cause.
I feel like these issues are more complicated and possibly riotous than at first thought. Not saying we shouldn't try. Just saying I don't envy the enforcers.

For what it's worth, Dragonia I agree with almost all your points, but that may be because I grew up out in the sticks myself. I don't agree with limiting the number of arms one person may own. That's because I don't see how it would prevent gun violence. After all, it just takes one gun to kill, and only one gun can be fired by a person at a time. So what if that person happens to own four other guns or twelve? Also, that sort of law would enflame the gun zealots, some of whom are all too willing to contemplate living out their "armed patriot" fantasies.

Instead, I'd support a stringent trigger lock and locked secure gunsafe storage law for weapons. I also think it's worth seriously considering making it mandatory for all weapons sold after a certain date to be equipped with smart gun (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_gun) technology.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Dave on October 06, 2017, 07:31:06 AM
I see your points regarding hunting for food - the only real justification for any kind of hunting in my mind. However I am sorry that there are those who have to rely on "wild food" to survive in a modern, industrial nation. But I would have thought trapping would be a surer method of gaining this anyway.

Your prtection point I have heard so often before, it scales al the way up to having enough thermo-nuclear wespons to "protect" yourself by wiping out civilization. There are two reasons for needing such protection, a) because your fellow vitizens are "protecting" themselves against the likes of you, who carry protection against them, and, b) your society is so damaged by mental health problems and disadvantaged members that your life is almost constantly at risk; at home, at work, just out shopping etc. That latter makes your society the equal of those in Honduras, Somalia and other 2nd, 3rd world states.

So, the final outcome is, as Father Bruno said, that you have a very sick society, so sick it cannot, in the whole, recognise its own disease. No true insight, no rational balance. "Mutual protection" is just another facet of "mutual paranoia".
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Davin on October 06, 2017, 03:57:34 PM
There are very loud people that are the all or nothings. And the NRA has been pushing the idea that any gun regulation is or will lead to a complete gun ban.

Most people want some common sense gun regulations. I want some studies done, but the NRA has squashed that too with their ban on gun violence research by government agencies. Any gun research that has been don in the last 30 years has been from private sources. We don't have a good idea about what exactly will work in our case, or what is a good direction to take because we've been blinded by the NRA.

At the very least, legislation could be put in place that expires in a few years.

But something has to be done. There are a few people trying to replicate the Mumford Act nationwide. I'm down with that.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Dragonia on October 06, 2017, 09:37:45 PM
Quote from: Recusant on October 06, 2017, 04:40:33 AM
....
Also, that sort of law would incite the gun zealots, some of whom are all too willing to contemplate living out their "armed patriot" fantasies.

Yes, definitely the biggest potential problem with this kind of a law, who knows how widespread the standoffs would be.

Quote from: Recusant on October 06, 2017, 04:40:33 AM
Instead, I'd support a stringent trigger lock and locked secure gunsafe storage law for weapons. I also think it's worth seriously considering making it mandatory for all weapons sold after a certain date to be equipped with smart gun (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_gun) technology.

I could support these, except the smart gun controls, which sounds good in principle, there are just some bugs that need to be worked out of the cracks.

Quote from: Dave on October 06, 2017, 07:31:06 AM
I see your points regarding hunting for food - the only real justification for any kind of hunting in my mind. However I am sorry that there are those who have to rely on "wild food" to survive in a modern, industrial nation. But I would have thought trapping would be a surer method of gaining this anyway.
This is funny to me that you feel sorry for those people! So many people wouldn't want their life any other way! Not only is your meat healthy and wild, but it's almost free, and it's definitely a way of being in touch with where your food comes from. Trapping is a horrible alternative, in my opinion. A creature being caught in a trap, terrified, probably in pain, hormones tainting the meat.....its better to just get a clean shot and kill instantly.
I truly miss the caribou and moose that we had access to up in AK.
Quote from: Dave on October 06, 2017, 07:31:06 AM
Your prtection point I have heard so often before, it scales al the way up to having enough thermo-nuclear wespons to "protect" yourself by wiping out civilization. There are two reasons for needing such protection, a) because your fellow vitizens are "protecting" themselves against the likes of you, who carry protection against them, and, b) your society is so damaged by mental health problems and disadvantaged members that your life is almost constantly at risk; at home, at work, just out shopping etc. That latter makes your society the equal of those in Honduras, Somalia and other 2nd, 3rd world states.

So, the final outcome is, as Father Bruno said, that you have a very sick society, so sick it cannot, in the whole, recognise its own disease. No true insight, no rational balance. "Mutual protection" is just another facet of "mutual paranoia".
I believe there are more than these two reasons for needing such protection. It's not an "either/or" issue. There is a lot of nuance and while I don't believe we live in a sick society, I acknowledge that there are sick/addicted/lawless/desperate people who I prefer to have defense against. There are break-ins all the time, everywhere, and I wouldn't hesitate to defend my family against whatever bad intentions are in that person's head.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Dragonia on October 06, 2017, 09:46:16 PM
Quote from: Davin on October 06, 2017, 03:57:34 PM
There are very loud people that are the all or nothings. And the NRA has been pushing the idea that any gun regulation is or will lead to a complete gun ban.

Most people want some common sense gun regulations. I want some studies done, but the NRA has squashed that too with their ban on gun violence research by government agencies. Any gun research that has been don in the last 30 years has been from private sources. We don't have a good idea about what exactly will work in our case, or what is a good direction to take because we've been blinded by the NRA.

At the very least, legislation could be put in place that expires in a few years.

But something has to be done. There are a few people trying to replicate the Mumford Act nationwide. I'm down with that.
I agree. The NRA is alarmist and it seems they just stir up paranoia. I can't stand it.
And the Mulford Act seems pretty reasonable in a civilized society. Law enforcement would have their hands full at first....
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Dave on October 06, 2017, 10:57:53 PM
Phew, Dragonia, too much there to really answer pint by point (or too much fudfly editing on a tablet to do so and not going to fire up the laptop this time of night with my tired eyes!)

Not so funny that I expressed such things sbout those who hunt oir food when I think about it. We are at a different part of our history than the US is. Amongst the "country folk" when I was a kid there were far more people catching (often clandestinely since just about every square mile of England is owned by others who have exclusive hunting rights on it, or by the governmenypt with very tight rules,) game of some kind. We live at a much smaller scale here, most live within easy ride of a supermarket (or four) and a long way (in the way the English think of distance, like 50 miles or more) from accessible hunting territory. Then it is a case of a rather difficult to acquire shotgun licence. A rifle licence needs all kinds of extra boxes to tick, reasons to have and hoops to jump through. Then you have to have the land owners express permission and a whole volume of rules to stick to. And, possibly, a very full wallet. When I bought a shotgun licence, back in about 1965, I simply filled in a short form, showed the lady in the post office proof of my age and address and paid 7 shillings and 6 pence, £0.375, the equivalent of about $7 today.

So, it is a case that I was applying the mindset applicable to a long history whereas the US if far closer to the mindset that applied to its establishment, a mindset that many US  citizens hold onto with a very strong grip and, maybe, they would be willing to defend it with a similar level of violence as that used to build the nation in the first place! That last may be an exageration but the US does seem to tend towards being a violent nation looking from here, though we do see it through the biased filter of the news media. The already hinted at possibility of a new "civil war" over gun ownership and use, religion, human rights etc does not seem so improbable.

With your present president; a proven liar, a man who ignores normal presidential behaviour, who openly insults citizens in need of assistance etc, etc, etc, I doubt that anything is outside the limits of speculation.

The US and the UK are maybe quite a long way apart in more than just miles. I hope it stays that way, though I fear that it will not.

Elsewhere, I saying we need to get into the mindset of others to understand them. I realised the gulf between East and West whilst looking to the East, then ignored the gulf looking towards the West!
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on October 07, 2017, 02:09:50 AM
Quote from: Dragonia on October 06, 2017, 03:23:59 AM
Here's my 2 cents worth (ok, maybe 15 cents) on this issue:
I feel like I don't fit in anywhere on the issue of guns. It seems like such an all-or-nothing issue.  I am not a member of the NRA, but I do believe that responsible, sane Americans should be allowed to own weapons.
Especially growing up in Alaska, and spending many years of my adult life there, a weapon equals food for your family, and protection for yourself and your family. We would have never gone on our trips into the woods without a gun. We never had to use ours, for protection or signalling, but we knew plenty of people who would have been dead without one.
I also support owning a weapon for self-or home-defense. Again, I have known a woman whose shotgun saved her life/health/property (she wasn't sure what the intruder was after,  only that he turned and ran when he saw the gun aimed at his head.)
These beliefs have gotten me sneered at and verbally jumped all over.
Now, I think it's wise and prudent to outlaw modifications on weapons, silencers, bum stocks (whatever it's called), among other stuff. I don't mind a limit on the number of weapons a person can own. I don't mind a mandatory waiting period before someone can purchase a gun. I support thorough background checks.
These beliefs have gotten me sneered at and verbally jumped all over.
Some new laws would be a logistical nightmare / witch hunt, trying to enforce the newly passed law, ie. limiting the number of weapons you can own. I have no idea how this would be accomplished and it could be that lawmakers are afraid of the uprising that instituting these laws would cause.
I feel like these issues are more complicated and possibly riotous than at first thought. Not saying we shouldn't try. Just saying I don't envy the enforcers.

I have similar views.  There is a middle ground on this that will preserve individual freedoms in accordance with American culture, but at the same time limit the Las Vegas/Sandy Hook events.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on October 07, 2017, 02:24:25 AM
I like to go back to the beginning.  America grew out of a reaction against the overreach of King George's England and the abuse of his troops.  The Second Amendment says: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."  Let's look at the text.  "A well regulated Militia", in my opinion, refers to a citizens militia like the Minute Men of New England.  It can take action when, for whatever reason, government cannot or will not act.  But it must be "well regulated".  You regulate with regulations, and regulations limit things.  If I had to organize a citizen's militia to protect my neighborhood if civil law broke down, I would not want the insane, the criminal, or enemies of the country such as terrorists in my group.  These types of people don't need weapons.  That takes regulation.

Second, a citizen's militia should be composed of individuals who have, more or less, the same armament as the average American foot soldier.  US infantrymen don't have automatic weapons.  The standard weapon is one M16A3 or M16A4, semi automatic.  That's enough to protect one's family or take up arms against a foe.  The Las Vegas shooter had 23 weapons in his room (I think).  There is no reason for this sort of excess.

The Second Amendment says that "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."   Nobody in the government is seriously advocating total abolition of firearms. People in the US will continue to have the right to keep and bear arms.  But that does not mean that individuals can own nuclear weapons.  There is a limit, and the question is simply where that limit is.  There is a middle ground between "no limitations" and "abolition of arms".  That's where we need to have the discussion, but that gets lost in the emotional fog. 

Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Sandra Craft on October 07, 2017, 06:35:42 AM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on October 07, 2017, 02:24:25 AM
The Second Amendment says that "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."   Nobody in the government is seriously advocating total abolition of firearms. People in the US will continue to have the right to keep and bear arms.  But that does not mean that individuals can own nuclear weapons.  There is a limit, and the question is simply where that limit is.  There is a middle ground between "no limitations" and "abolition of arms".  That's where we need to have the discussion, but that gets lost in the emotional fog.

That's the problem I'm seeing -- that each side assumes the other are extremists, that there is no moderate position.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Dave on October 07, 2017, 07:16:58 AM
Your are saying things that I have long thought, Bruce! I said elsewhere that a training period, in use, safety and maintenance, including ethics, should be mandatory before a permit to buy and own a firearm will be issued. Also much tighter control on the types of weapon available, as you say.

But, really, why does a nation like the US need such a militia at all in the 21st century? I know that the Swiss maintain an armed (but officially trained) public because they have been surrounded by historically aggressive neighbours for centuries. In any modern world war, even a conventional one, I feel that resistance movements (the only justifucation for such a militia) in a scenario where any nation invading the US would require massive aerial overkill to come anywhere near success, would be pretty futile - unless they still massively outnumbered the occupying enemy troops and had an almost endless supply stock. I doubt that any such invader would play by the Geneva Convention rules, attacks on their troops would almost certainly incur retaliation against unarmed civilians. After all, it is really the real estate and resources and/or an end to the "American-Way-of-Life", and its perceived threat to their own, that the enemy wants - not millions of dependant and resentful "prisoners" that must be maintained and controlled 24/7. Recent actions seem to indicate that most potential enemies seem to consider some form of mass extermination of the enemy a valid weapon of war and control.

Is it possible that this hanging on to an historical, but possibly obsolete, ammendment is really an excuse to justify a national tendency towards violence? Aggression as much as defence? A large part of the early, and possibly later, immigrant "psychotype" was concentrated on those fleeing oppressive or genocidal regimes or seeking to "make their fortune". Justifiably, in some ways, being willing to fight against the chance of recurrence of those experiences or for that ambition became the norm. After a very few generations such might become a national stereotype, an officially accepted policy. But it has stepped out of the debating room and into the physicality of violence so many times.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: SisterAgatha on October 07, 2017, 08:04:46 PM
I wonder if it is any conincidence that the shooting took place in Las Vegas, with all its gambling, prostitutes and alcohol as opposed to some sleepy little town in Iowa or Kentucky, where people go to church every sunday.

Not saying it has anything to do with it..just food for thought.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Dave on October 07, 2017, 08:12:31 PM
Quote from: SisterAgatha on October 07, 2017, 08:04:46 PM
I wonder if it is any conincidence that the shooting took place in Las Vegas, with all its gambling, prostitutes and alcohol as opposed to some sleepy little town in Iowa or Kentucky, where people go to church every sunday.

Not saying it has anything to do with it..just food for thought.

Well, "Sister" it is quite easy to do the research, why not do your own analysis and tell us unbelievers just how sinful this world is withiut an imaginary magical friend in our lives.

Or shut up and go bother soneone else.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Papasito Bruno on October 07, 2017, 10:08:20 PM
Quote from: SisterAgatha on October 07, 2017, 08:04:46 PM
I wonder if it is any conincidence that the shooting took place in Las Vegas, with all its gambling, prostitutes and alcohol as opposed to some sleepy little town in Iowa or Kentucky, where people go to church every sunday.

Not saying it has anything to do with it..just food for thought.

Here's something you can fucking nibble on, how about a sleepy little classroom filled with 5 and 6 year olds, at a place called Sandy Hook Elementary School.

Nothing irks me more than blaming victims, saying they may have deserved to be shot and killed.

Go Away.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Dave on October 08, 2017, 01:27:42 PM
Heard on BC World Service news that the sickness in American society is even sicker than we first thought. Victims, even those in hospital, are being accused of being "victim actors" in a fake event, presumably designed to cast the gun laws in a bad light. Fake events not required, too many real ones.

Found these:

http://www.snopes.com/las-vegas-shooting-rumors-hoaxes-and-conspiracy-theories/

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/oct/04/las-vegas-shooting-youtube-hoax-conspiracy-theories

But it seems that Youtube is attempting to stop this slander from being spread:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/youtube-las-vegas-shooting-second-shooter-false-flag-conspiracy-theories-search-results-change-a7987236.html

https://globalnews.ca/news/3789111/youtube-search-results-conspiracy-videos/
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on October 08, 2017, 08:04:09 PM
Quote from: Dave on October 07, 2017, 07:16:58 AM
Your are saying things that I have long thought, Bruce! I said elsewhere that a training period, in use, safety and maintenance, including ethics, should be mandatory before a permit to buy and own a firearm will be issued. Also much tighter control on the types of weapon available, as you say.

But, really, why does a nation like the US need such a militia at all in the 21st century? I know that the Swiss maintain an armed (but officially trained) public because they have been surrounded by historically aggressive neighbours for centuries. In any modern world war, even a conventional one, I feel that resistance movements (the only justifucation for such a militia) in a scenario where any nation invading the US would require massive aerial overkill to come anywhere near success, would be pretty futile - unless they still massively outnumbered the occupying enemy troops and had an almost endless supply stock. I doubt that any such invader would play by the Geneva Convention rules, attacks on their troops would almost certainly incur retaliation against unarmed civilians. After all, it is really the real estate and resources and/or an end to the "American-Way-of-Life", and its perceived threat to their own, that the enemy wants - not millions of dependant and resentful "prisoners" that must be maintained and controlled 24/7. Recent actions seem to indicate that most potential enemies seem to consider some form of mass extermination of the enemy a valid weapon of war and control.

Is it possible that this hanging on to an historical, but possibly obsolete, ammendment is really an excuse to justify a national tendency towards violence? Aggression as much as defence? A large part of the early, and possibly later, immigrant "psychotype" was concentrated on those fleeing oppressive or genocidal regimes or seeking to "make their fortune". Justifiably, in some ways, being willing to fight against the chance of recurrence of those experiences or for that ambition became the norm. After a very few generations such might become a national stereotype, an officially accepted policy. But it has stepped out of the debating room and into the physicality of violence so many times.

A militia could be necessary in the event of local breakdown of order, or in the event of revolution, government downfall, or invasion.  All of these happen in the 21st Century.  They may not be likely, but they are possible. 
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Dave on October 08, 2017, 08:47:57 PM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on October 08, 2017, 08:04:09 PM
Quote from: Dave on October 07, 2017, 07:16:58 AM
Your are saying things that I have long thought, Bruce! I said elsewhere that a training period, in use, safety and maintenance, including ethics, should be mandatory before a permit to buy and own a firearm will be issued. Also much tighter control on the types of weapon available, as you say.

But, really, why does a nation like the US need such a militia at all in the 21st century? I know that the Swiss maintain an armed (but officially trained) public because they have been surrounded by historically aggressive neighbours for centuries. In any modern world war, even a conventional one, I feel that resistance movements (the only justifucation for such a militia) in a scenario where any nation invading the US would require massive aerial overkill to come anywhere near success, would be pretty futile - unless they still massively outnumbered the occupying enemy troops and had an almost endless supply stock. I doubt that any such invader would play by the Geneva Convention rules, attacks on their troops would almost certainly incur retaliation against unarmed civilians. After all, it is really the real estate and resources and/or an end to the "American-Way-of-Life", and its perceived threat to their own, that the enemy wants - not millions of dependant and resentful "prisoners" that must be maintained and controlled 24/7. Recent actions seem to indicate that most potential enemies seem to consider some form of mass extermination of the enemy a valid weapon of war and control.

Is it possible that this hanging on to an historical, but possibly obsolete, ammendment is really an excuse to justify a national tendency towards violence? Aggression as much as defence? A large part of the early, and possibly later, immigrant "psychotype" was concentrated on those fleeing oppressive or genocidal regimes or seeking to "make their fortune". Justifiably, in some ways, being willing to fight against the chance of recurrence of those experiences or for that ambition became the norm. After a very few generations such might become a national stereotype, an officially accepted policy. But it has stepped out of the debating room and into the physicality of violence so many times.

A militia could be necessary in the event of local breakdown of order, or in the event of revolution, government downfall, or invasion.  All of these happen in the 21st Century.  They may not be likely, but they are possible.

Problem is the internal rebellion could come from sone of those very militias! The important part , "... a well regulated militia...", is the crucial ekement that - apart from the Natiinal Guard - seems to be missing element. As I said before, mandatory training before purchase or ownership is allowed and registration of all arms might go a way to preventing nutters like Padock assembling a whole armoury. Though one bump stock modified semi-auto assault rifle equals a fair massacre on its own.

Only single shot hunting or competition rifles and double barelled shotguns are allowed over here I think, and you have to have club membership to own the latter or competition pistols.  Special Home Office permits go to very few to hold multi shot pistols for personal defence.  My old .4l0 shotgun, a modified WW2 Lee Enfield .303 rifle, was further modified so it could not be magazine fed.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Tank on October 08, 2017, 09:01:09 PM
Quote from: Dave on October 08, 2017, 08:47:57 PM
...
Only single shot hunting or competition rifles and double barelled shotguns are allowed over here I think, and you have to have club membership to own the latter or competition pistols.  Special Home Office permits go to very few to hold multi shot pistols for personal defence.  My old .4l0 shotgun, a modified WW2 Lee Enfield .303 rifle, was further modified so it could not be magazine fed.
Competition pistols are illegal in the UK. Our Olympic team trains on the continent. There is no class of handgun that is legal in the UK.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Dave on October 08, 2017, 09:07:48 PM
Quote from: Tank on October 08, 2017, 09:01:09 PM
Quote from: Dave on October 08, 2017, 08:47:57 PM
...
Only single shot hunting or competition rifles and double barelled shotguns are allowed over here I think, and you have to have club membership to own the latter or competition pistols.  Special Home Office permits go to very few to hold multi shot pistols for personal defence.  My old .4l0 shotgun, a modified WW2 Lee Enfield .303 rifle, was further modified so it could not be magazine fed.
Competition pistols are illegal in the UK. Our Olympic team trains on the continent. There is no class of handgun that is legal in the UK.

Ah, thanks, Tank. Were they ever legal? I seem to remember thst Dunblane changed some rules.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Tank on October 08, 2017, 10:11:07 PM
Quote from: Dave on October 08, 2017, 09:07:48 PM
Quote from: Tank on October 08, 2017, 09:01:09 PM
Quote from: Dave on October 08, 2017, 08:47:57 PM
...
Only single shot hunting or competition rifles and double barelled shotguns are allowed over here I think, and you have to have club membership to own the latter or competition pistols.  Special Home Office permits go to very few to hold multi shot pistols for personal defence.  My old .4l0 shotgun, a modified WW2 Lee Enfield .303 rifle, was further modified so it could not be magazine fed.
Competition pistols are illegal in the UK. Our Olympic team trains on the continent. There is no class of handgun that is legal in the UK.

Ah, thanks, Tank. Were they ever legal? I seem to remember thst Dunblane changed some rules.
Yes. Dunblane did for all hand guns in civilian hands in the UK.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: solidsquid on October 08, 2017, 11:54:42 PM
I think the focus is upon the wrong aspect. People automatically focus on guns most often because, in my humble opinion, it is a polarizing topic and gets people fired up and talking.  It's also great for media ratings especially due to the strength of confirmation bias.  Putting the tools of the violence aside - what is the driving force behind such mass killings?  I think to get down to the root of the matter would require addressing complex social we, as a people, are not yet ready to really truly deal with. 

I think we shun addressing the underlying motivations because they are large and complex to deal with.  We cannot legislate away terrorism.  It's already illegal but that doesn't stop terrorists of which many are religious zealots.  Also, such behavior outside of a religious context, whether violent or not, is almost universally viewed as a mental health problem which is the other huge issue underlying mass casualty events that too often gets little to no attention. 

If you look back at all the mass shootings (not the definition used by some organizations where any event involving two or more people is considered a mass shooting), in nearly every instance there was an element of radicalized religiosity and/or mental health issues.  Even if you extend past the issue of weapons of choice and just involve all mass casualty events that are not natural or accidents but intensional violent acts you find all manner of implements utilized to kill many people, from guns to vehicles, knives to pressure cookers and black powder.  What then becomes the commonalities? Extremism and mental health problems. Yet we focus on guns. Timothy McVeigh killed nearly 200 people and never fired a shot.

So, I don't think we have a gun problem, we have a mental health and extremism problem.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Dave on October 09, 2017, 05:38:12 AM
^
I agree with what you say, Solud, but with the qualification that separating those that suffer mental problems from the means of multiple murder is the easiest and quickest achieved "solution". Yes, you cannot legislate against illegal firearms or all edged instruments, whether weapons or tools.

Mental health, and I will include radicalised, extremist and fundamentalist members of any belief group in that bracket, are always going to be a problem. And, from this side of the pond, it seems a problem that America has "specialised" in creating or attracting over its history. That plus relatively easy access to guns is an obvious formular for trouble.

This is not helped by comparatively rational, sane, people feeling uncomfortable about any possible restriction on the acceptable ownership and use of "sporting" firearms. I will reiterate the idea of tighter restrictions on purchase and use; mandatory "screening", registration, training and regulation at the users' expence.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Tank on October 09, 2017, 06:47:06 AM
Quote from: solidsquid on October 08, 2017, 11:54:42 PM
I think the focus is upon the wrong aspect. People automatically focus on guns most often because, in my humble opinion, it is a polarizing topic and gets people fired up and talking.  It's also great for media ratings especially due to the strength of confirmation bias.  Putting the tools of the violence aside - what is the driving force behind such mass killings?  I think to get down to the root of the matter would require addressing complex social we, as a people, are not yet ready to really truly deal with. 

I think we shun addressing the underlying motivations because they are large and complex to deal with.  We cannot legislate away terrorism.  It's already illegal but that doesn't stop terrorists of which many are religious zealots.  Also, such behavior outside of a religious context, whether violent or not, is almost universally viewed as a mental health problem which is the other huge issue underlying mass casualty events that too often gets little to no attention. 

If you look back at all the mass shootings (not the definition used by some organizations where any event involving two or more people is considered a mass shooting), in nearly every instance there was an element of radicalized religiosity and/or mental health issues.  Even if you extend past the issue of weapons of choice and just involve all mass casualty events that are not natural or accidents but intensional violent acts you find all manner of implements utilized to kill many people, from guns to vehicles, knives to pressure cookers and black powder.  What then becomes the commonalities? Extremism and mental health problems. Yet we focus on guns. Timothy McVeigh killed nearly 200 people and never fired a shot.

So, I don't think we have a gun problem, we have a mental health and extremism problem.
I agree with all you have said. But I feel there is more to the issue. Guns facilitate violence both practically and psychologically in a way only a weapon can. It becomes a focus of intent in a way a pressure cooker can't. A gun is a device that is violence incarnate. To achieve justification for its existence it must do violence or threaten to do violence. It has no place in general society. People might want them but they very rarely need them. Reducing the societal weapon load to those with a justifiable need for them can not feasibly do anything other than reduce gun related deaths.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Dave on October 09, 2017, 08:31:12 AM
^
Yes, the gun and the "right to bear" has become an intrinsic part of the "American Way of Life". Along with what looks awfully like a form of  social evolution, only the strong have a right to survive in the deeper recesses of the "national mind."
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: solidsquid on October 09, 2017, 03:50:36 PM
Quote from: Tank on October 09, 2017, 06:47:06 AM
I agree with all you have said. But I feel there is more to the issue. Guns facilitate violence both practically and psychologically in a way only a weapon can. It becomes a focus of intent in a way a pressure cooker can't. A gun is a device that is violence incarnate. To achieve justification for its existence it must do violence or threaten to do violence.

I understand your perspective but I would have to disagree.  I think such a view is akin to stating that people are driven to violence simply because the opportunity exists. From my perspective, a gun is a device - on that we agree.  However, my view of a gun being a threat is largely dependent upon the human wielding it and their intentions.  The same would go for a machete, a baseball bat, or even a screw driver.  I think that it is not a gun problem America has but an social integrity problem and an inability to deal effectively with mental health.

I would be curious to let you elaborate on why you view firearms and a manifestation of violence.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on October 09, 2017, 04:35:18 PM
Every society makes its own decisions about what is or is not acceptable.  In the USA, we have agreed that private ownership of weapons is acceptable, and that occasional episodes of violence are acceptable.  The recent event may lead to some tweaking of the regulatory framework, but the right to bear arms is not going to be revoked anytime soon.  It's part of our DNA, and that's the way it's going to stay for the foreseeable future.  There will be more of these events, but we've agreed, as a society, that this is an acceptable consequence.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: solidsquid on October 09, 2017, 04:44:13 PM
Quote from: Dave on October 09, 2017, 05:38:12 AMI will reiterate the idea of tighter restrictions on purchase and use; mandatory "screening", registration, training and regulation at the users' expence.

I find myself going back and forth on this point and have for some time.  I'm not one who is a fan of bureaucracy nor am I a fan of placing more and more restrictions on something our country purports is a "right" of the citizens.  However, as a people we have allowed and even called for placing restrictions on those rights such as with "hate speech" in relation to the First Amendment as well as the multitude of gun laws already on the books - the banning of particular modifications such as "sawed off" shotguns, the restrictions placed upon fully automatic weapons, the mandatory background checks when purchasing from a licensed FFL holder, requirements for training and license in order to carry a handgun in public, among others.  There was also the decade long ban on so-called "assault weapons" from 1994-2004.

I wish I had more time to discuss my thoughts on the matter in detail but I unfortunately have some homework to tackle.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Dave on October 09, 2017, 05:17:47 PM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on October 09, 2017, 04:35:18 PM
Every society makes its own decisions about what is or is not acceptable.  In the USA, we have agreed that private ownership of weapons is acceptable, and that occasional episodes of violence are acceptable.  The recent event may lead to some tweaking of the regulatory framework, but the right to bear arms is not going to be revoked anytime soon.  It's part of our DNA, and that's the way it's going to stay for the foreseeable future.  There will be more of these events, but we've agreed, as a society, that this is an acceptable consequence.

I was going to say that that was alien to everything I think. Almost immediately I thought of the fact that road vehicles have been a danger to life and limb ever since they were allowed on the public highway. But they have recently become a terrorist weapon of choice, they are easily available and draw little attention until actually used as anti-personnel missiles.

We cannot ban road vehicles so, as you say Bruce, we put up with their dangerous aspects, very, very few use them as weapons. Very, very few of the maybe millions of owners in America use guns to deliberately kill without "acceptable" cause or reason. Though I remrmber the British lad, lost in Miami I think,  who knocked on s door to ask directions and was shot through door - picked just ghe wrong house, that of a paranoid, gun owning, nutter. We will ignore that the hand gun and carbine type short barelled rifle (being pretty useless for hunting at range) were designed for a single purpose, the taking of life, thus making every carrier a potential killer.

But, the paranoia, against both foriegner and fellow citizen, that infests your society is certainly alien to me.

Are you allowed to wear a sword in public?
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Recusant on October 09, 2017, 06:22:35 PM
Quote from: Dave on October 09, 2017, 05:17:47 PMAre you allowed to wear a sword in public?

The law varies from state to state (http://www.knifeup.com/knife-laws/). There is no federal law against wearing a sword, but I think it's generally illegal to bring one into most federal properties unless you're a member of the armed forces in a ceremonial setting.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on October 09, 2017, 07:05:41 PM
Quote from: Dave on October 09, 2017, 05:17:47 PM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on October 09, 2017, 04:35:18 PM
Every society makes its own decisions about what is or is not acceptable.  In the USA, we have agreed that private ownership of weapons is acceptable, and that occasional episodes of violence are acceptable.  The recent event may lead to some tweaking of the regulatory framework, but the right to bear arms is not going to be revoked anytime soon.  It's part of our DNA, and that's the way it's going to stay for the foreseeable future.  There will be more of these events, but we've agreed, as a society, that this is an acceptable consequence.

I was going to say that that was alien to everything I think. Almost immediately I thought of the fact that road vehicles have been a danger to life and limb ever since they were allowed on the public highway. But they have recently become a terrorist weapon of choice, they are easily available and draw little attention until actually used as anti-personnel missiles.

We cannot ban road vehicles so, as you say Bruce, we put up with their dangerous aspects, very, very few use them as weapons. Very, very few of the maybe millions of owners in America use guns to deliberately kill without "acceptable" cause or reason. Though I remrmber the British lad, lost in Miami I think,  who knocked on s door to ask directions and was shot through door - picked just ghe wrong house, that of a paranoid, gun owning, nutter. We will ignore that the hand gun and carbine type short barelled rifle (being pretty useless for hunting at range) were designed for a single purpose, the taking of life, thus making every carrier a potential killer.

But, the paranoia, against both foriegner and fellow citizen, that infests your society is certainly alien to me.

Are you allowed to wear a sword in public?

Up to a 5 inch knife is legal in Texas, but you can open carry guns, so who needs a knife or sword?  Most of us don't spend much time thinking about it until something like Las Vegas happens.  I realize it seems strange to the rest of the world.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Tank on October 09, 2017, 08:02:58 PM
Quote from: solidsquid on October 09, 2017, 03:50:36 PM
Quote from: Tank on October 09, 2017, 06:47:06 AM
I agree with all you have said. But I feel there is more to the issue. Guns facilitate violence both practically and psychologically in a way only a weapon can. It becomes a focus of intent in a way a pressure cooker can't. A gun is a device that is violence incarnate. To achieve justification for its existence it must do violence or threaten to do violence.

I understand your perspective but I would have to disagree.  I think such a view is akin to stating that people are driven to violence simply because the opportunity exists. From my perspective, a gun is a device - on that we agree.  However, my view of a gun being a threat is largely dependent upon the human wielding it and their intentions.  The same would go for a machete, a baseball bat, or even a screw driver.  I think that it is not a gun problem America has but an social integrity problem and an inability to deal effectively with mental health.

I would be curious to let you elaborate on why you view firearms and a manifestation of violence.
You appear a sane and thoughtful individual  thus you see a gun as a device. The issue that concerns me is the immediacy and level of violence (and thus perceived power) of a gun lowers the threshold of temptation to use a gun. Nobody to my knowledge has ever sat stroking a pressure cooker because it was aspirational to own one or gave them a sense of power.

So if you have a toxic mix of mental health issues and guns why not simply remove the guns? There will still be murders but as many? I strongly doubt that. How many deaths is America willing to pay to keep guns on the streets? Thousands and thousands and thousands by the look of it.

In answer to your question about violence I find it impossible not to associates guns with violence. When has there ever been a scene in a TV show or movie when a gun was portrayed in anything other than in the context of violence? I can't think of one and even if I could it would be one in 1,000, one in 10,000, one in a million? The perception of guns is that they are violence and power incarnate. The TV and movie industry thrive and amplify that perception 24/7/365.

You raise a valid point about Timothy McVeigh, but it's not the whole story. He put a huge amount of thought, effort and most importantly time into what he did. It wasn't an off the cuff action so in terms of day-to-day gun violence it was atypical.

America is soaked with guns. It has poor mental health care. And that combination is killing you by the thousands and will continue as long as owning guns is considered aspirational, glamorous and a significant part of the economy. Many Americans love guns. Think about that, they love guns. It's not just the individuals that are deranged it's pretty much the whole of American society. Apologies if that sounds rude and brutal. :(
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on October 10, 2017, 02:15:29 AM
Americans, as a whole, DO love guns.  That's a fact. It's part of our history and DNA. For that reason, a certain number of deaths is deemed acceptable.  We also love American football, so much that a certain number of concussions and traumatic brain injuries are acceptable.  We are a wild bunch, on the whole.  No reason to sugarcoat it.  Still a frontier mentality in many places here.  Another reason we probably won't be invaded.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Tank on October 10, 2017, 06:46:07 AM
Canada won't invade America they are too polite.
Mexico already has successfully invaded America and will continue to do so forever.
The Pacific and Atlantic make any other attempt unlikely.
You don't need a military let alone guns.

:grin:
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Bad Penny II on October 11, 2017, 09:45:04 AM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on October 10, 2017, 02:15:29 AM
Americans, as a whole, DO love guns.  That's a fact.

Is it? I wouldn't categorise it as such.
There could be some fancy named, self serving logical fallacy involved.


Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on October 10, 2017, 02:15:29 AM
Americans, as a whole, DO love guns.  That's a fact. It's part of our history and DNA. For that reason, a certain number of deaths is deemed acceptable.  We also love American football, so much that a certain number of concussions and traumatic brain injuries are acceptable.  We are a wild bunch, on the whole.  No reason to sugarcoat it.  Still a frontier mentality in many places here.  Another reason we probably won't be invaded.


Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on October 10, 2017, 02:15:29 AM
It's part of our history and DNA. For that reason, a certain number of deaths is deemed acceptable.  We also love American football, so much that a certain number of concussions and traumatic brain injuries are acceptable.  We are a wild bunch, on the whole.  No reason to sugarcoat it.  Still a frontier mentality in many places here.  Another reason we probably won't be invaded.

"our" "we" "we on the whole" "we"

Guns seem to be an extremely divisive issue, I don't see any sign of a national compact, where a level of death is acceptable.  I gather the US has become quite a divided society and guns are a major point of contention.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on October 11, 2017, 04:08:27 PM
Quote from: Bad Penny II on October 11, 2017, 09:45:04 AM

Guns seem to be an extremely divisive issue, I don't see any sign of a national compact, where a level of death is acceptable.  I gather the US has become quite a divided society and guns are a major point of contention.

The national compact is the Second Amendment of the Constitution, plus the democratic process.  Majority rules here.  If the majority wants to eliminate guns, they can do it.  They don't. 

It's not as divided as you may think.  Looks like we might pass some restrictions on bump stocks.  But ownership of guns will continue, at least for the foreseeable future.  If shooting 500 people is not enough to reverse that, I don't think it will be reversed, at least in my lifetime.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Davin on October 11, 2017, 04:49:37 PM
The majority don't want to eliminate guns, but the majority does want some gun regulations. There are not only two sides to the debate, even though most media and loud mouths keep presenting it as either "no gun regulations" or "no guns."
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Dave on October 11, 2017, 05:01:46 PM
Quote from: Davin on October 11, 2017, 04:49:37 PM
The majority don't want to eliminate guns, but the majority does want some gun regulations. There are not only two sides to the debate, even though most media and loud mouths keep presenting it as either "no gun regulations" or "no guns."

So you have the white fringe and the black fringe and a lot of gray between?

Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Davin on October 11, 2017, 06:48:11 PM
The NRA and their bribed congress folk, and their spokes people always drive the discussion towards their side being the freedom to own guns, and represent any criticism, counter point... pretty much anything not in lock step with them, as calling for the outright banning of guns. They keep the discussion restrained to that false dilemma. And they do it intentionally.

There are some fringe "no guns at all" people, but they are so small a minority that it's ridiculously dishonest to even bring them up as "the other side" of the gun debate. They are hardly even heard.

On the other hand, the "fringe" for "no gun regulations at all" people are much more numerous (not the majority, but still a big chunk), have a ton of money from selling guns or getting paid by the people that manufacture guns, lobby bribe congress people with millions a year, speak out to millions of people on several different platforms and mediums... so many more things.

Giving out numbers, the anti-gun regulation lobbyists are a significant minority with money, influence, and power behind them, like 5% of the "debate".  Anti-gun people are less than 0.1% of the "debate". Meanwhile, over 65% of the "debate" (NRA members included) support gun regulations, including background checks.

Those are rough inaccurate numbers, but they are a more accurate representation of "the debate" than calling it two fringes with a lot of grey area.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Dave on October 11, 2017, 08:39:27 PM
Quote from: Davin on October 11, 2017, 06:48:11 PM
The NRA and their bribed congress folk, and their spokes people always drive the discussion towards their side being the freedom to own guns, and represent any criticism, counter point... pretty much anything not in lock step with them, as calling for the outright banning of guns. They keep the discussion restrained to that false dilemma. And they do it intentionally.

There are some fringe "no guns at all" people, but they are so small a minority that it's ridiculously dishonest to even bring them up as "the other side" of the gun debate. They are hardly even heard.

On the other hand, the "fringe" for "no gun regulations at all" people are much more numerous (not the majority, but still a big chunk), have a ton of money from selling guns or getting paid by the people that manufacture guns, lobby bribe congress people with millions a year, speak out to millions of people on several different platforms and mediums... so many more things.

Giving out numbers, the anti-gun regulation lobbyists are a significant minority with money, influence, and power behind them, like 5% of the "debate".  Anti-gun people are less than 0.1% of the "debate". Meanwhile, over 65% of the "debate" (NRA members included) support gun regulations, including background checks.

Those are rough inaccurate numbers, but they are a more accurate representation of "the debate" than calling it two fringes with a lot of grey area.

So the right to own and guns is more important than the right go to school and be safe, enjoy a concert without fear of losing ypur life - or that of a loved one.

Well, Britaiin may be small, boring, old fashioned and have a bunch of idiots for a parliament (but which nation does not?) but I think I will stick with it.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Davin on October 11, 2017, 08:43:01 PM
Quote from: Dave on October 11, 2017, 08:39:27 PMSo the right to own and guns is more important than the right go to school and be safe, enjoy a concert without fear of losing ypur life - or that of a loved one.
People can have the right to own a gun and schools, public places, and people can be much safer as well. It's not one or the other. We need more and better gun regulations, but we don't need to take all the guns away.

Not even Britain or Australia have taken all the guns away.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Dave on October 11, 2017, 09:40:06 PM
Quote from: Davin on October 11, 2017, 08:43:01 PM
Quote from: Dave on October 11, 2017, 08:39:27 PMSo the right to own and guns is more important than the right go to school and be safe, enjoy a concert without fear of losing ypur life - or that of a loved one.
People can have the right to own a gun and schools, public places, and people can be much safer as well. It's not one or the other. We need more and better gun regulations, but we don't need to take all the guns away.

Not even Britain or Australia have taken all the guns away.

Good pont, I was arguing for tighter rules and regs  - enforced responsibility as far as than can work - previously. As fsr as the UK goes the iwnership and use of even a shotgunnor mstch rifke is very tightly rrgulated. I ssid before, I got my furstblucence dimply by shoeingnotoof of idrntity andnpaying about the equivalent of £5 (in the local post office) now. I was in the RAF so had to keep it and the ammunition in a locker in the armoury. Currently you have to provide evidence of a 'need' (which can be game shooting) or membership of a club or whatever. I would guess that there are similar rules on safe storage of both guns snd ammunition that your have to demonstrate knowledge of over there as well.

There have been three "major" incidents in the UK in "recent" years:
1987 Hungerford, 16 killed, 15 injured
"A report was commissioned by Home Secretary Douglas Hurd. The Firearms (Amendment) Act 1988 was passed in the wake of the massacre, which bans the ownership of semi-automatic centre-fire rifles and restricts the use of shotguns with a capacity of more than three cartridges. The shootings remain one of the deadliest firearms incidents in British history."

1996 Dunblane, 18 killed, 15 injured
"Public debate about the killings centred on gun control laws, including public petitions calling for a ban on private ownership of handguns and an official inquiry, which produced the 1996 Cullen Reports.[2] In response to this debate, two new Firearms Acts were passed, which greatly restricted private ownership of firearms in Great Britain."


2010, Cumbria, 13 killed, 11 injured
"Bird had been a licensed firearms holder, and the incident sparked debate about further gun control in the United Kingdom; the previous Dunblane school massacre and Hungerford shootings had led to increased firearms controls."

All quotations from Wikipedia.

In all cases the perpetrator committed suicide so the chances are, as in most non-terrorist shootings, mental health was a big factor. But, without anything like your constitution (though at one time local militias were  encouraged and expected to be trained and armed, but we grew out of that) the government can change the rules quite easily (though I seem to remember mutterings from the huntin' and shootin' lobbies and it was a pity it extended to match shooting with handguns.)
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: solidsquid on October 12, 2017, 01:25:59 AM
Quote from: Dave on October 09, 2017, 05:17:47 PMAre you allowed to wear a sword in public?

As of September 1st, here in Texas we can.  Much to my disappointment I haven't witnessed a bunch of people running after each other with swords drawn yelling, "There can be only one!"
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: solidsquid on October 12, 2017, 01:27:46 AM
Quote from: Tank on October 09, 2017, 08:02:58 PM
Quote from: solidsquid on October 09, 2017, 03:50:36 PM
Quote from: Tank on October 09, 2017, 06:47:06 AM
I agree with all you have said. But I feel there is more to the issue. Guns facilitate violence both practically and psychologically in a way only a weapon can. It becomes a focus of intent in a way a pressure cooker can't. A gun is a device that is violence incarnate. To achieve justification for its existence it must do violence or threaten to do violence.

I understand your perspective but I would have to disagree.  I think such a view is akin to stating that people are driven to violence simply because the opportunity exists. From my perspective, a gun is a device - on that we agree.  However, my view of a gun being a threat is largely dependent upon the human wielding it and their intentions.  The same would go for a machete, a baseball bat, or even a screw driver.  I think that it is not a gun problem America has but an social integrity problem and an inability to deal effectively with mental health.

I would be curious to let you elaborate on why you view firearms and a manifestation of violence.
You appear a sane and thoughtful individual  thus you see a gun as a device. The issue that concerns me is the immediacy and level of violence (and thus perceived power) of a gun lowers the threshold of temptation to use a gun. Nobody to my knowledge has ever sat stroking a pressure cooker because it was aspirational to own one or gave them a sense of power.

So if you have a toxic mix of mental health issues and guns why not simply remove the guns? There will still be murders but as many? I strongly doubt that. How many deaths is America willing to pay to keep guns on the streets? Thousands and thousands and thousands by the look of it.

In answer to your question about violence I find it impossible not to associates guns with violence. When has there ever been a scene in a TV show or movie when a gun was portrayed in anything other than in the context of violence? I can't think of one and even if I could it would be one in 1,000, one in 10,000, one in a million? The perception of guns is that they are violence and power incarnate. The TV and movie industry thrive and amplify that perception 24/7/365.

You raise a valid point about Timothy McVeigh, but it's not the whole story. He put a huge amount of thought, effort and most importantly time into what he did. It wasn't an off the cuff action so in terms of day-to-day gun violence it was atypical.

America is soaked with guns. It has poor mental health care. And that combination is killing you by the thousands and will continue as long as owning guns is considered aspirational, glamorous and a significant part of the economy. Many Americans love guns. Think about that, they love guns. It's not just the individuals that are deranged it's pretty much the whole of American society. Apologies if that sounds rude and brutal. :(

I so wish I had more time right now Tank but work and homework drain my time.  I'll try to respond soon.  Just wanted to let you know I wasn't ignoring you.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on October 12, 2017, 01:44:43 AM
Quote from: Davin on October 11, 2017, 08:43:01 PM
Quote from: Dave on October 11, 2017, 08:39:27 PMSo the right to own and guns is more important than the right go to school and be safe, enjoy a concert without fear of losing ypur life - or that of a loved one.
People can have the right to own a gun and schools, public places, and people can be much safer as well. It's not one or the other. We need more and better gun regulations, but we don't need to take all the guns away.

Not even Britain or Australia have taken all the guns away.

Agree. There is middle ground.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on October 12, 2017, 01:47:05 AM
Quote from: solidsquid on October 12, 2017, 01:25:59 AM
Quote from: Dave on October 09, 2017, 05:17:47 PMAre you allowed to wear a sword in public?

As of September 1st, here in Texas we can.  Much to my disappointment I haven't witnessed a bunch of people running after each other with swords drawn yelling, "There can be only one!"

Yeah, I forgot about the new law.  Now I can justify buying a sword at the Texas Renaissance Festival.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Dave on October 12, 2017, 06:59:32 AM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on October 12, 2017, 01:47:05 AM
Quote from: solidsquid on October 12, 2017, 01:25:59 AM
Quote from: Dave on October 09, 2017, 05:17:47 PMAre you allowed to wear a sword in public?

As of September 1st, here in Texas we can.  Much to my disappointment I haven't witnessed a bunch of people running after each other with swords drawn yelling, "There can be only one!"

Yeah, I forgot about the new law.  Now I can justify buying a sword at the Texas Renaissance Festival.

Cutlass, sabre, broad or epee?  A gladius might be more convenient in the car or bus!

Guessing it would have to be a sabre in Texas, was that not the standard Civil War officer's, especially cavalry, weapon?
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Tank on October 12, 2017, 07:06:18 AM
Quote from: solidsquid on October 12, 2017, 01:27:46 AM
Quote from: Tank on October 09, 2017, 08:02:58 PM
Quote from: solidsquid on October 09, 2017, 03:50:36 PM
Quote from: Tank on October 09, 2017, 06:47:06 AM
I agree with all you have said. But I feel there is more to the issue. Guns facilitate violence both practically and psychologically in a way only a weapon can. It becomes a focus of intent in a way a pressure cooker can't. A gun is a device that is violence incarnate. To achieve justification for its existence it must do violence or threaten to do violence.

I understand your perspective but I would have to disagree.  I think such a view is akin to stating that people are driven to violence simply because the opportunity exists. From my perspective, a gun is a device - on that we agree.  However, my view of a gun being a threat is largely dependent upon the human wielding it and their intentions.  The same would go for a machete, a baseball bat, or even a screw driver.  I think that it is not a gun problem America has but an social integrity problem and an inability to deal effectively with mental health.

I would be curious to let you elaborate on why you view firearms and a manifestation of violence.
You appear a sane and thoughtful individual  thus you see a gun as a device. The issue that concerns me is the immediacy and level of violence (and thus perceived power) of a gun lowers the threshold of temptation to use a gun. Nobody to my knowledge has ever sat stroking a pressure cooker because it was aspirational to own one or gave them a sense of power.

So if you have a toxic mix of mental health issues and guns why not simply remove the guns? There will still be murders but as many? I strongly doubt that. How many deaths is America willing to pay to keep guns on the streets? Thousands and thousands and thousands by the look of it.

In answer to your question about violence I find it impossible not to associates guns with violence. When has there ever been a scene in a TV show or movie when a gun was portrayed in anything other than in the context of violence? I can't think of one and even if I could it would be one in 1,000, one in 10,000, one in a million? The perception of guns is that they are violence and power incarnate. The TV and movie industry thrive and amplify that perception 24/7/365.

You raise a valid point about Timothy McVeigh, but it's not the whole story. He put a huge amount of thought, effort and most importantly time into what he did. It wasn't an off the cuff action so in terms of day-to-day gun violence it was atypical.

America is soaked with guns. It has poor mental health care. And that combination is killing you by the thousands and will continue as long as owning guns is considered aspirational, glamorous and a significant part of the economy. Many Americans love guns. Think about that, they love guns. It's not just the individuals that are deranged it's pretty much the whole of American society. Apologies if that sounds rude and brutal. :(

I so wish I had more time right now Tank but work and homework drain my time.  I'll try to respond soon.  Just wanted to let you know I wasn't ignoring you.

No problem. I'm not going anywhere.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: hermes2015 on October 12, 2017, 07:37:57 AM
Quote from: Dave on October 12, 2017, 06:59:32 AM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on October 12, 2017, 01:47:05 AM
Quote from: solidsquid on October 12, 2017, 01:25:59 AM
Quote from: Dave on October 09, 2017, 05:17:47 PMAre you allowed to wear a sword in public?

As of September 1st, here in Texas we can.  Much to my disappointment I haven't witnessed a bunch of people running after each other with swords drawn yelling, "There can be only one!"

Yeah, I forgot about the new law.  Now I can justify buying a sword at the Texas Renaissance Festival.

Cutlass, sabre, broad or epee?  A gladius might be more convenient in the car or bus!

The idea of carrying a sword cane while flaneuring in a Parisian boulevard has always appealed to the romantic in me.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Dragonia on October 12, 2017, 01:15:58 PM
Comme ci? ;)
(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/dc/ae/fd/dcaefd89e66dafa050f4a45941e59b50--court-dresses-fashion-for-men.jpg)
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Papasito Bruno on October 12, 2017, 05:10:36 PM
A few things that are harder to get than guns in America:

Food stamps
Sudafed
Marriage licenses
Dildos
Raw milk


We are obsessed with guns, and this obsession is killing and injuring Americans at what some would call an alarming rate. However, there are some that would say these deaths and injuries, although tragic are the price for freedom here in America.

Apparently all the other free countries in the world aren't really free because they don't suffer anything approaching the same rate of deaths or injuries we Americans due. Some of these casualty figures for the US are listed below.

Numbers for 2017. (But hey, we still have several months to go...)

Total Number of Incidents: 48,240
Number of Deaths: 12,058
Number of Injuries: 24,564
Number of Children (age 0-11)
Killed or Injured: 563

Number of Teens (age 12-17)
Killed or Injured: 2,524
Mass Shooting: 279
Officer Involved Incident
Officer Shot or Killed: 240
Officer Involved Incident
Subject-Suspect Shot or Killed: 1,609
Home Invasion: 1,923
Defensive Use: 1,571
Unintentional Shooting: 1,567


I think this picture of lifelong white supremacist and neo-fucking Nazi, Dennis Mothersbaugh while wearing his God, Guns, & TRUMP shirt, which was taken recently while he was being extradited to Charlottesville sums up the far rights obsession quite well.

GOD, GUNS, & TRUMP


(https://i.imgur.com/RnNlXWS.jpg)

This issue will not go away, mass shootings will continue to occur, death rates from guns will continue to rise each year. At some point America will turn itself into a third world nation unlike any other on the planet, and the very freedoms we love and cherish will be smothered and choked from our society.
We'll have our guns, but nothing else.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Bad Penny II on October 12, 2017, 05:48:56 PM
Quote from: Father Bruno on October 12, 2017, 05:10:36 PM
A few things that are harder to get than guns in America:

Food stamps

I thought you could pick 'em up at a discount from the poor.
Use 'em to pay for your shopping and with the money you save pay for your holiday.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Bad Penny II on October 12, 2017, 06:21:48 PM
Are bayonets OK?
I feel safer with a bayonet, if I run out of those little pointy death things, or have a jam, I don't want to be left reaching for my second gun when confronted by a government interloper.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Papasito Bruno on October 27, 2017, 06:25:53 PM
Since the mass shooting in Las Vegas that left 58 people dead and hundreds wounded, this issue of gun control here in the US has been continually debated, though many had said in the days after the shooting that it was too soon to discuss or debate because we should offer thoughts and prayers first.

So I'm wondering if it is time yet?

Most American support stricter gun laws according to the Pew Research Center, however. Most legislation won't make it through the Republican controlled Congress.

It's be a month since the shooting, and according to the Gun Violence Archive, more than 2,738 people have been shot, and more than 800 people have been killed by gun violence here in the United States.

Nothing is changing, but hey...at least we got our guns.

Makes us cooler than other countries.

USA is #1
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Dave on October 27, 2017, 06:55:04 PM
^
Those figures are sickening and the product of a sick society.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Icarus on October 31, 2017, 11:48:54 PM
Dave the totality of our society is not sick but we certainly have a disproportionate number of our  members who are showing profound symptoms, even deadly symptoms. 

I am a charter member of the advocates for gun control, which happens to be far more than half of our nations population. I have no problem with guns, they are only mechanical devices that are capable of launching a projectile.  I do have a problem with that group of people who passionately believe that they can not live in some sort of socially acceptable harmony without their guns. 

The ugly truth is that guns are not the only problem that we have.  There are nut cases all over the place. Some of them, including ones in Merrie Olde England (and France, Spain, Sudan, Pakistan, Syria, Lebanon, Afg....well you get the idea) contrive other ways to kill innocent people for no rational reason whatsofucking ever.

Today,   October 31 2017 ,in New York City, some crazy person rented a pickup truck, ran down and killed eight people on a bicycle path. Why????????

What is the deal with the crazies that use pressure cooker pots to blow up some of the marathoners?  Why would someone, or some organization, use giant truck borne explosives to kill nearly 300 innocent people in Mogadishu?  Why?????? How in hell does that make any sense?????

Why did that lunatic massacre all those people at Las Vegas? Why? To what end? That was a gun incident. The nut case had no prior record of violence and he was legally qualified to buy the guns that he used.  "Houston We have a problem"....correction....the civilized world has a problem.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Dave on November 01, 2017, 06:04:02 AM
I agree, Icarus, that there seems to be a world wide epidemic of murder at the moment. And perhaps my reaction has something of the knee-jerk about it. However my reaction has not changed much since before terrorism became a global industry.

Sorry but I have to differrntiate between those who act for what they see is a  "common cause" (no matter what we think of it religious belief has been a powerful motivating force for as long as recorded history and, possibly, millenia before that) and those individuals with some form of diagnosable mental illness. Though I too use words like "deluded" to describe those inflicted with religious fervour I do not intellectually consider it a mental illness, rather an abberation of the mind, similar to that which, despite evidence to the contrary, causes some to think that water "remembers" a no longer present substance which gives it curative powers.

True paranoia and/or schizophrenia, possibly present in some form in most mass shooters. are another matter - it is a personal illness, though it has to be said it might seem that it can be thought of as "contagious" if possesed by a person of otherwise strong personslity influencing those with a personality "succeptible" to any strong "message". Combined with that almost genetic seeming religious fervour it can be a true force for "evil." The individual insane person is as dangerous as his or her means to express sny violent aspect of their disease. That guns are do essily svsilable to those who may become afflicted with such a condition is a fault in his or her society and not the infividual.

I see the obsession that some Americans have with guns, other than as tools for accuracy sport, food (not trophy) hunting or vermin conttol, a special kind of sickness. Pistols and carbine type firearms are also tools, but tools designed for the purpose of killing anything within a fairly close range -  mostly other humans, unless, of course, you are thinking of a close encounter with with the likes of a bear or cougar on the high street or in the store or diner. A true hunting rifle is, agreed, just a long range killing weapon in essence, use dependant on the mental state of the weilder. Match rifles can also kill any kind of creature at long range I agree.

However, semi or fully automatic weapons are another matter, such are designed for multiple killing from the very begining. Those who design and offer services or devices that convert semi automatics to the full variety are, in my mind, morally complicit in any event that uses such for multiple murder.

I am also fascinated by guns, have bern since I was a kid, avidly read "Guns and Ammo" when I could get hold of a copy. Even owned a converted Lee-Enfield 303 rifle converted to a 410 shotgun - and enjoyed ridding farms of pigeons and rats. But never even thought of having the right to bear arms whilst carrying out my everyday life. One of your countrymen, on another atheist forum, said that he would never consider leaving the house without an open carry weapon - "because every nutter around can do the same" (parsphrased from memory). That, to me, was self-admittancebof being a fellow member of a society of nutters. Several of the pro-gun lobby on that forum fully aggreed with him.

If the majority are pro strict control and regulation, hopefully requiring mandatory formal training, that is good, but why are they not, en masse, taking stronger positive action to try to convince their political representatives to vote for such measures in congress? Why do they want any kind of widespread gun ownerdhip to start with, regulated or not? Are they going to ooen fire on any vehicle that it merely pointed towards or comes near pedestrians. Are they expecting a terrorist with a knife or gun round every corner? Bit useless, or counter productive even, against suicidal explosive carriers though.

Sorry, Icarus, an obsession is still, at best, a form of mental aberration. A nationally regulated obesession is . . . The advocates of virtualy unregulated gun ownership (or those willing to use them to access and hold political power), despite the tens of thousands who are injured or killed by accident, crime or the actions of the insane involving such instruments, currently have control of this aspect of your society. That they do so is a blight on the whole society for not redressing the matter. "Society" is, effectively, a product of the larger body of thought, or st least thise with the power or influence over thst body. That, like "religion" or any other human mass effect, will have a spectrum from "good" to "evil" within it, but its overall "appearance" , to others, depends on its most obvious characteristics.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Dave on November 01, 2017, 08:06:54 AM
Writing, re-reading and editing the above has msde me self-aware of the degree to which I may be influenced, despite myself, by the biases of the media. Like all of us I get my information from indirect sources, each with some form of agenda, even the "academic" ones can suffer from subjective influence. Socieries cannot be precisely measured and calibrated and even those who are members of such often have a dual opinion, one intensely personal the other part of an understandable "herd tendency". Their actions will be a combination of the two and may fluctuate between the person's extremes.

So, who has the right to judge a society? The members or the external observers of it? Do those externsl observers judge from a comparixon with their own society, from a hypoctitical point of view - ignoring the errors inherentbin their own society, of from the reports of those who's job is to highlight the extraordinary?

Personally I try my best to avoid opinionated journalism and to be aware of language intended to bias my thinking - probably with less than 100% success. Even what seem like bare statistics can be presented with language, typography or graphics designed to influence the reader (I am guilty of this myself!) "Non-zero origin" graphs making a tiny variation look like a huge effect, red text can have a stronger subliminal emotional effect than green or even black, thick black borders . . . (There was an excellent programme on BBC radio on this last week.)

From my experience of my, less thsn ideal I agree, society that of America seem crass, artificial and violent in the whole, though I know tgst there sre good people over there and whole neighbourhoods of friendly types. Just as there are good Christians, Jews, Muslims etc.

People should be judged on what they do not what they are labelled - I keep telling myself... But when a society has the power of strong global influence I have s right of opinion on it, an opinion based on that society's actions, internally as well because those may influence its foreign policies and the activities of its agents and any subsequent effects on my society.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Icarus on November 01, 2017, 08:47:29 PM
Well done above, Dave.  You may be given the title of  honorary forum philosopher.  You must share that title with several other of our members who are also acknowledged thinkers.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Dave on November 01, 2017, 09:16:51 PM
Quote from: Icarus on November 01, 2017, 08:47:29 PM
Well done above, Dave.  You may be given the title of  honorary forum philosopher.  You must share that title with several other of our members who are also acknowledged thinkers.

Thanks, Icarus, I just wish it was not 4am trips to the loo for a piss that inspired such outpourings!  I often wake about then and find that my mind fizzes a bit. Typing still crap though (lying on my back in bed with the tablet perched on my chest).  It needed at least one more edit, may try to beat it into a more coherent shape as an essay just for the practice.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Dave on November 05, 2017, 08:15:39 PM
And here we go again...

Quote
At least 27 people have died after a gunman opened fire at a church in Texas during Sunday services.
The attack happened at the First Baptist Church in Sutherland Springs in Wilson County.
A police commissioner at the scene confirmed that at least 27 people had died. Several others are reported to be injured.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-41880511
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Sandra Craft on November 05, 2017, 11:20:42 PM
And already the NRA supporters are blathering about how it's not a gun problem but a mental health problem.  Like crazy people allowed to buy guns isn't a problem all on its own.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Harmonie on November 06, 2017, 12:24:34 AM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on November 05, 2017, 11:20:42 PM
And already the NRA supporters are blathering about how it's not a gun problem but a mental health problem.  Like crazy people allowed to buy guns isn't a problem all on its own.

Don't you know that guns are just completely innocent harmless rainbow shooting toys until they get into the hands of bad people? Guns can not be blamed, they must remain 100% free from regulation. Because... We can't be mean to them, or something like that.

Seriously, I can't even begin to understand why people are actually against gun regulation. Gun sellers who want to make more money, sure, but everyday people I can not understand. Gun regulation should only effect those who - SURPRISE! - shouldn't have guns to begin with!

My first paragraph is a joke, of course, but it is only slightly exaggerated in reality. People treat guns like innocent toys when in reality they are manufactured 100% with the purpose of being weapons. Yes, they can only harm people if they are put in the hands of people... But that's the thing, we're making laws for people.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on November 06, 2017, 02:37:13 AM
Horrible.  So senseless.  We are a sick society and we are armed.  Scary.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Magdalena on November 06, 2017, 04:24:09 AM
Quote from: Father Bruno on October 02, 2017, 07:50:58 PM
You should sticky this thread Recusant, that way when the next mass shooting occurs here in a week or so we don't have to keep starting a new one...after the horror of Sandy Hook, and the mass shooting of children which occurred there we here in the good ole US of A decided that we didn't want or need to discuss or resolve this issue of mass shootings, that we were fine living with this type of horror in our lives, that children being massacred in safety of their school room was bearable.

So we did nothing.

And we won't do anything now either.

Quote from: Recusant on October 05, 2017, 05:09:17 AM
I'm not going to sticky this thread until the next one. And there will be a next one.  :-\
...

You two were right.  :felix:
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Dave on November 06, 2017, 06:12:40 AM
It seems a potential protection scheme for church attendees has been voiced . . .

Allow them to carry guns in church.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Tank on November 06, 2017, 06:37:14 AM
Quote from: Magdalena on November 06, 2017, 04:24:09 AM
Quote from: Father Bruno on October 02, 2017, 07:50:58 PM
You should sticky this thread Recusant, that way when the next mass shooting occurs here in a week or so we don't have to keep starting a new one...after the horror of Sandy Hook, and the mass shooting of children which occurred there we here in the good ole US of A decided that we didn't want or need to discuss or resolve this issue of mass shootings, that we were fine living with this type of horror in our lives, that children being massacred in safety of their school room was bearable.

So we did nothing.

And we won't do anything now either.

Quote from: Recusant on October 05, 2017, 05:09:17 AM
I'm not going to sticky this thread until the next one. And there will be a next one.  :-\
...

You two were right.  :felix:

It was inevitable.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Papasito Bruno on November 06, 2017, 04:01:06 PM
Quote from: Tank on November 06, 2017, 06:37:14 AM
Quote from: Magdalena on November 06, 2017, 04:24:09 AM
Quote from: Father Bruno on October 02, 2017, 07:50:58 PM
You should sticky this thread Recusant, that way when the next mass shooting occurs here in a week or so we don't have to keep starting a new one...after the horror of Sandy Hook, and the mass shooting of children which occurred there we here in the good ole US of A decided that we didn't want or need to discuss or resolve this issue of mass shootings, that we were fine living with this type of horror in our lives, that children being massacred in safety of their school room was bearable.

So we did nothing.

And we won't do anything now either.

Quote from: Recusant on October 05, 2017, 05:09:17 AM
I'm not going to sticky this thread until the next one. And there will be a next one.  :-\
...

You two were right.  :felix:

It was inevitable.

Sadly it was...Two of the four deadliest shootings in U.S. history have occurred in the last 35 days by white gun enthusiasts who murdered 85 people, but hey let's not talk about gun control...


Thoughts and fucking prayers.


Also, since it was a white man who slaughtered half of the church in Texas it means that means everything is just fine today.


We don't have no terrorism to worry about.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Magdalena on November 06, 2017, 04:16:40 PM
Quote from: Father Bruno on November 06, 2017, 04:01:06 PM
Quote from: Tank on November 06, 2017, 06:37:14 AM
Quote from: Magdalena on November 06, 2017, 04:24:09 AM
Quote from: Father Bruno on October 02, 2017, 07:50:58 PM
You should sticky this thread Recusant, that way when the next mass shooting occurs here in a week or so we don't have to keep starting a new one...after the horror of Sandy Hook, and the mass shooting of children which occurred there we here in the good ole US of A decided that we didn't want or need to discuss or resolve this issue of mass shootings, that we were fine living with this type of horror in our lives, that children being massacred in safety of their school room was bearable.

So we did nothing.

And we won't do anything now either.

Quote from: Recusant on October 05, 2017, 05:09:17 AM
I'm not going to sticky this thread until the next one. And there will be a next one.  :-\
...

You two were right.  :felix:

It was inevitable.

Sadly it was...Two of the four deadliest shootings in U.S. history have occurred in the last 35 days by white gun enthusiasts who murdered 85 people, but hey let's not talk about gun control...


Thoughts and fucking prayers.


Also, since it was a white man who slaughtered half of the church in Texas it means that means everything is just fine today.


We don't have no terrorism to worry about.

Yeah. :sad sigh:

Also, let's continue building that wall so that bad people don't come in...Oh, wait, they're born here.  :shifty:
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Dave on November 06, 2017, 04:39:00 PM
QuoteWe don't have no terrorism to worry about.

Sorry to be pedantic, FB, but this is not terrorism, this is nutters. Should a group, immigrant or home grown, carry out actions - for a political or other purpose - designed to, say, make flying more difficult due to super enhanced aurport security, or using the sidewalk or bike path a thing of concern, or armed guards in churches, that is instilling a sense of terror in people.

There is, to some degree, a chance of monitoring things or setting up physical or legal defences. In the case ofvrsnfom attacjs by jndividuals, eith no "previous" (as it is known over here) therebis virtually no chance of predictionor prevention - short of that which the NRA and gun-nuts still fight against with all fheir considerable might.

I listened to the Governor of Texas early this morning, it was obvious that this latest event hit him hard, and he hinted about greater gun control if he did not actuslly call for it then. This is the top man in Texas, sounds like he risks political suicide.

We are talking about a mental health problem made worse by a lack of publicly funded therapy in a country where, just so long as you do not happen to have your name on a couple of lists, you can buy as many guns as you want. Or steal them from any of thundreds of thousands of owners, skmebof whom almost certainly leave their guns in unlocked places.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Tom62 on November 06, 2017, 05:15:48 PM
A very likely scenario is that a gun owner was quite normal, when he bought his guns but became crazy over time. In that case, please correct me when I'm wrong, I don't think that there are any laws to take away his guns. Perhaps gun owners should get regular mental checkups?
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Dave on November 06, 2017, 06:13:08 PM
Quote from: Tom62 on November 06, 2017, 05:15:48 PM
A very likely scenario is that a gun owner was quite normal, when he bought his guns but became crazy over time. In that case, please correct me when I'm wrong, I don't think that there are any laws to take away his guns. Perhaps gun owners should get regular mental checkups?

Good point.

I think I said before that there should be a period of mandstory firmsl training, at the applicant's expence, before a "permit to own" is issued. Then further mandatory training before carrying in public places.

Now, perhaps, add an annual psychological and legal check before permit renewal.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Tank on November 06, 2017, 06:52:32 PM
By some accounts he was an atheist. Christians on Facebook have exploded with joy that they can blame atheism for mass murder.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Magdalena on November 06, 2017, 06:59:20 PM
Quote from: Tank on November 06, 2017, 06:52:32 PM
By some accounts he was an atheist. Christians on Facebook have exploded with joy that they can blame atheism for mass murder.
No, he wasn't!  >:(

Texas Shooting: 'Domestic Situation' Said to Spur Gunman
QuoteSUTHERLAND SPRINGS, Tex. — Law enforcement officers investigating the mass shooting at a church that killed 26 people here said on Monday that "a domestic situation" within the gunman's family may have motivated the killing.

"The suspect's mother-in-law attended this church," Freeman Martin, a spokesman for the Texas Department of Public Safety, said during a news conference Monday morning. "We know that he had made threatening texts and we can't go into detail into that domestic situation that is continuing to be vetted and thoroughly investigated."

"This was not racially motivated, it wasn't over religious beliefs, it was a domestic situation going on," Mr. Martin added.
...
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/06/us/texas-shooting-church.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/06/us/texas-shooting-church.html)
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Magdalena on November 06, 2017, 07:04:37 PM
Quote from: Dave on November 06, 2017, 06:13:08 PM
Quote from: Tom62 on November 06, 2017, 05:15:48 PM
A very likely scenario is that a gun owner was quite normal, when he bought his guns but became crazy over time. In that case, please correct me when I'm wrong, I don't think that there are any laws to take away his guns. Perhaps gun owners should get regular mental checkups?

Good point.

I think I said before that there should be a period of mandstory firmsl training, at the applicant's expence, before a "permit to own" is issued. Then further mandatory training before carrying in public places.

Now, perhaps, add an annual psychological and legal check before permit renewal.
I don't know, but I wouldn't want to be the psychiatrist who has to give them the bad news.  :-\ Or the police officer who has to go take away their "favorite" toy. :-\
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Dave on November 06, 2017, 07:10:17 PM
Quote from: Magdalena on November 06, 2017, 07:04:37 PM
Quote from: Dave on November 06, 2017, 06:13:08 PM
Quote from: Tom62 on November 06, 2017, 05:15:48 PM
A very likely scenario is that a gun owner was quite normal, when he bought his guns but became crazy over time. In that case, please correct me when I'm wrong, I don't think that there are any laws to take away his guns. Perhaps gun owners should get regular mental checkups?

Good point.

I think I said before that there should be a period of mandstory firmsl training, at the applicant's expence, before a "permit to own" is issued. Then further mandatory training before carrying in public places.

Now, perhaps, add an annual psychological and legal check before permit renewal.
I don't know, but I wouldn't want to be the psychiatrist who has to give them the bad news.  :-\ Or the police officer who has to go take away their "favorite" toy. :-\

Good points, but, these days, the psychological text, and scoring, could be done on a screen. Or, in the time they would take to get such a law on the books, by a semi-AI or "intelligent system". Pass/fail result. Hmm, taking the toys away isn't so easy I agree . . .
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Sandra Craft on November 06, 2017, 08:35:49 PM
Quote from: Tom62 on November 06, 2017, 05:15:48 PM
A very likely scenario is that a gun owner was quite normal, when he bought his guns but became crazy over time. In that case, please correct me when I'm wrong, I don't think that there are any laws to take away his guns. Perhaps gun owners should get regular mental checkups?

I think that's a good idea -- prove every so often (yearly seems right for guns) that you're still competent and qualified to possess/use one.  We do that for car ownership, tho not nearly as often as we should.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Icarus on November 06, 2017, 11:32:07 PM
Florida has open carry permits for a handgun. In order to get the permit the applicant has to "go to school" to learn the rules. Part of the mandatory classes involve actual shooting at a pistol range. Many gun stores have indoor pistol ranges. The whole process is typically two hours and costs 40 dollars.   The process is reputed to involve a check up with a federal data base.  That is all well and good but it is much too easy to get a permit. Almost anyone, that does not have a felony record, can get the permit and carry his pistol openly in public.

I am pleased to say that there is seldom any sightings of a person actually packing heat.  Rifles are a different deal. You can buy a rifle with the only delay involving a simple check with a law enforcement agency.  Wal-Mart sells rifles and shotguns. So do many sporting goods stores. We have gun stores galore. They sell, you guessed it, guns of all descriptions. We also have pawn shops who can legally sell guns if they are licensed to do so. 

Gun shows are common weekend events. there will be two or three gun shows per year within 50 miles of wherever you might live. Gun show is an event held in civic centers and other public places.  They are scary places to visit if you are not one of the gun nuts, militia types, conspiracy theorists, or sometimes legitimate hunters. Those shows feature deadly weapons of all descriptions. Knives, machetes, poison dart blowguns, archery equipment, Books about how to kill, and other such lovely things.

The sum of all that is disturbing to those of us who are not savages.  Florida is not the worst of the states who are absurdly permissive.


Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Dave on November 07, 2017, 05:06:47 AM
^
That is part of the cultiral problem, Icarus. Just wondering if there are as many shops and shows for fishing? Doubt it, unless it's fishing using explosive devices.

It is soaked into the very nature of some people and, like cars, computers and cellphones, some start off small and cheap but eventually "need" something big and powerful. There was a good bit on this phenomenon on the radio last week, like the film "Supersize me", an American mass affliction that is spreading until a "regular" coffee comes in a small bucket instead of a cup.

And the lack of adequate control of the sale of semi-automatic weapons is appalling in my view. Even bolt or lever action magazine fed ones can still kill lots of people.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Icarus on November 09, 2017, 08:15:45 AM
Dave we have lots of water in Florida. A gazillion lakes and streams along with our many hundreds of miles of coastline.  We have places to fish. We also have a plenty of fishing tackle shops. I am happy to say there are more fishermen than shooters.  We have weekly fishing tournaments almost year round. Not my cup of tea but it is practically a regional craze. The real problem is that the fish are becoming progressively more sophisticated. They will not bite just any bait or lure.

Back to the gun subject. Here is a video with one of our lady comedians who is somewhat wildly political. Look at the last minute of the vid for the more imaginative punch lines https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqfHv7gOML0

Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Dave on November 09, 2017, 08:29:00 AM
Yeah, oops, forgot Florida was so wet!
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: xSilverPhinx on November 10, 2017, 01:32:33 AM
(https://scontent.fpoa13-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/23244287_10156186870874305_7393128581783199146_n.jpg?oh=8d4a8bd73a8318838768fd274c616404&oe=5A96C43A)
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Dave on November 10, 2017, 08:18:16 AM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on November 10, 2017, 01:32:33 AM
(https://scontent.fpoa13-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/23244287_10156186870874305_7393128581783199146_n.jpg?oh=8d4a8bd73a8318838768fd274c616404&oe=5A96C43A)

Kind of sick, but to the point.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Tank on November 10, 2017, 08:38:52 AM
^^^ Shared on FB.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Papasito Bruno on November 10, 2017, 03:38:13 PM
Quote from: Dave on November 10, 2017, 08:18:16 AM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on November 10, 2017, 01:32:33 AM
(https://scontent.fpoa13-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/23244287_10156186870874305_7393128581783199146_n.jpg?oh=8d4a8bd73a8318838768fd274c616404&oe=5A96C43A)

Kind of sick, but to the point.

In a sense this is an extremely accurate portrayal of America and it's current stance on guns in this country. We have resigned ourselves to the fact that we value guns more than human life, and that this love affair with guns requires us to acknowledge that senseless violence by those possessing these murderous tools is simply a fact and a normal way of life here.

No different than living in an area prone to flooding or wildfires. If you live in those areas you prepare yourself and your home for just such a disaster, by making sure that your home has flood insurance, or by having material always at hand to cover your windows in case of a hurricane like many folks did down in Florida recently.

You know what else they are doing now in Florida?

A private school in Miami is offering parents bullet proof panels that will fit inside their children backpacks. Then the children can be trained during an active/live shooting situation to take cover behind their backpacks if necessary.
So not only do children in America practice what to do in case of a fire, or perhaps a tornado, but they are also receiving training on how to act and respond to some murderous fuck attacking them in their schools.

The folks on Fox said we need to as citizens of this Great Fucked Up Country learn how to be more cognizant of our surroundings, and be always alert for a shooting to take place.

One commentator said, "Hey, if you are in church make sure you are thinking of where you might duck and run if a shooting occurs while you are at mass."

Basically if you do get shot it's your own fault...victim blaming at it's highest and most vaulted level.

Anyway here's a link to the Florida
Backpack
(http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/07/health/bulletproof-panels-backpacks-trnd/index.html) story.

(https://i.imgur.com/ZCGr4PQ.jpg)

Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Dave on November 10, 2017, 03:52:36 PM
^
Yes, bullet proof backpacks have been advertised for some time now. Can't find the advert now that showed a young girl squatting, hiding behind one. I have not done the math yet but I am guessing the impact energy of a decent sized bullt at shirt range would knock a squatting kid over. Or at least knock the pack out of their grasp.

Another symptom of the sickness.

Later: if I have my maths right I might be wrong, an AR15 bullet, at near muzzke velocity, has the same inpact energy as a baseball doing about 11mph. Still going to knock a board held by a youngster to one side unless held very squarely near the sides. Might save a couple of seconds if the shooter moves on to another target.

But still, as you say, the acceptance that such is necessary speaks loudly. Like saying smoking is OK because we can cure some cases. Bullet proof packs are a sticking plaster on a gaping wound.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Icarus on November 11, 2017, 02:27:52 AM
Bruno I take issue with what you said above. We damned sure have NOT resigned ourselves to the necessity for guns.  The vast majority of Americans, even including a majority of NRA members, believe that we should by all means have some form of gun ownership control.   

To all of you over there and elsewhere, please know that only a minority of our citizens are gun nuts.  I do agree that there are so many of the gun nut types that your impression of us has to be that all of us are fucked up in the head. Not so.  Only about one third of us are stupid. 
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Magdalena on November 16, 2017, 12:47:37 AM
Another one. :sad sigh:
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/california-mass-shooter-killed-wife-buried-her-beneath-floor-n821051 (https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/california-mass-shooter-killed-wife-buried-her-beneath-floor-n821051)
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Papasito Bruno on November 16, 2017, 01:31:02 PM
Quote from: Icarus on November 11, 2017, 02:27:52 AM
Bruno I take issue with what you said above. We damned sure have NOT resigned ourselves to the necessity for guns.  The vast majority of Americans, even including a majority of NRA members, believe that we should by all means have some form of gun ownership control.   

To all of you over there and elsewhere, please know that only a minority of our citizens are gun nuts.  I do agree that there are so many of the gun nut types that your impression of us has to be that all of us are fucked up in the head. Not so.  Only about one third of us are stupid.

Icarus,

Then why has nothing changed? Why do we have mass shootings on an almost weekly basis? Why when compared to 22 other high-income nations is the United States' gun-related murder rate 25 times higher? Why is it that even though the United States' suicide rate is similar to other countries, the nation's gun-related suicide rate is eight times higher than other high-income countries?
Why does the US, with half the population of the other 22 nations combined, account for 82 percent of all gun deaths. Why do 91% of children under 14 who die by gun violence live in the United States. Why are 92% of young people between ages 15 and 24 killed by guns here in the United States?

(https://i.imgur.com/uoz1QCC.jpg)

Why is it lawful here in the US for this freak from Colorado to be allowed to own over 200 machine guns, grenade launchers, and other assorted military grade weapons?  Meet one of the biggest Assholes in the USA (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4638208/Meet-armed-man-America.html)

This is him in his bedroom.

(https://i.imgur.com/HuVhJkq.jpg)

Is this fucking normal? Why and how is this even legal?

Why are we teaching school children how to react to an active shooter in their schools, and supplying them with bullet-proof backpacks?
Why doesn't this happen in other countries?

Is it because they haven't resigned themselves to a love a guns over the sanctity of human life?

I know you want change Icarus, not saying you don't,...and not all Americans are gun nuts, but we as a country have moved past the point of no return and now we will continue to reap what we have sown.

Sad part is, this will only continue to get worse each year, with more and more shootings, and a lot more deaths.

Here in Dearborn the local American Legion is have a fund raising dinner on 12/02 for a three year-old boy who was shot by his brother by accident...he needs 24 hour care, because of this his mother can no longer work, but has to stay home and provide care for him...This. Is. The. New. Norm.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Bad Penny II on November 16, 2017, 02:40:58 PM
Quote from: Father Bruno on November 16, 2017, 01:31:02 PM
Then why has nothing changed? Why do we have mass shootings on an almost weekly basis?

Because you are freer than us.
Life is bleak here, truly grim.
If only guns were more free.
It's about the cost of freedom
I am willing to pay the cost,
someone else's seven year old
It's a cost I'm willing to pay.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Papasito Bruno on December 14, 2017, 02:55:29 PM
Sandy Hook was five years ago TODAY. US Congress has still done nothing.

(https://i.imgur.com/v7PT2dN.jpg)


QuoteJOSEPHINE "JOEY" GAY should have celebrated her 12th birthday this week. She should have been surrounded by friends and family in a place festooned with purple, her favorite color.

Chase Kowalski should have been working toward a Boy Scout merit badge and training for a triathlon. Avielle Richman should have been where her parents said she was happiest, on a horse.

REST OF STORY HERE. (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/sandy-hook-was-five-years-ago-congress-has-still-done-nothing/2017/12/13/69e2749a-df7c-11e7-89e8-edec16379010_story.html?tid=ss_tw-bottom&utm_term=.e2535a227d7c)

What else is there really to say about this utter, senseless, cruel, tragedy and the utter lack of accountability by our elected officials, and those who support them and their desire for more and more guns.

In one of the comments following the attached article someone posted the following, I remember hearing much the same at the time of this massacre.
QuoteThe morning of Sandy Hook, I was in the lobby of a business that could be described as catering to a blue collar crowd. As the horrible news unfolded, a man sitting across from me shook his head and said "Well, the gun control nuts will be all over this one." I was stunned into silence and had to get up and leave the room. Two dozen toddlers gunned down, and that was his first reaction. I fear any attempts at reasonable firearm laws are useless unless we can address a way of thinking that values gun ownership over life.

My heart goes out to the parents and family members of these poor, young children.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Dave on December 14, 2017, 03:38:25 PM
Yes, sick society rules -ok?
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: No one on December 14, 2017, 04:22:35 PM
Have I ever mentioned how repulsive humans are? Also, have I ever mentioned my absolute, complete and utter hatred for them?
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Bad Penny II on December 14, 2017, 04:40:55 PM
Quote from: No one on December 14, 2017, 04:22:35 PM
Have I ever mentioned how repulsive humans are? Also, have I ever mentioned my absolute, complete and utter hatred for them?
Yes you have, that's what you do..
Do you not remember?
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: No one on December 14, 2017, 04:49:15 PM
Are you sure it was me?
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Bad Penny II on December 14, 2017, 05:19:36 PM
Quote from: No one on December 14, 2017, 04:49:15 PM
Are you sure it was me?

No not absolutely but I don't think you're worth further testing.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: No one on December 14, 2017, 05:20:52 PM
Did you mean any testing?
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Bad Penny II on December 14, 2017, 05:28:10 PM
Quote from: No one on December 14, 2017, 05:20:52 PM
Did you mean any testing?

How could you possibly construe that?

Grow up or die.

Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: No one on December 14, 2017, 05:35:41 PM
I may grow old, but I'll never grow up.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Bad Penny II on December 14, 2017, 05:45:22 PM
Quote from: No one on December 14, 2017, 05:35:41 PM
I may grow old, but I'll never grow up.

Do you think you might expand a bit on your moaning?
Maybe add a bit of groaning, you are rather dull.
I only mean to help.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: No one on December 14, 2017, 05:50:46 PM
Well, I'll have you know, I've never been accused of being the sharped bulb on the street!
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Icarus on December 16, 2017, 06:31:14 AM
^^^^The subject is about the unconscionable worship and use of guns, gentlemen. Cut us some slack. This is a sad thread that deserves some dignified discourse. 
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Tank on December 16, 2017, 08:09:06 AM
Yesterday was the 6th anniversary of the Sandy Hook child massacre.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: AngelOfDeath on December 20, 2017, 08:53:02 PM


sad thing. 
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Icarus on January 24, 2018, 09:07:55 PM
Another one.......... Benton Kentucky. Yesterday a 15 year old student brought a gun to school killed two injured seventeen others.  Twelve hit with bullets five injured in the stampede to escape.Police captured the assailant in short order, unfortunately too late for the two dead kids.

Has every one noticed that we are killing each other at a far higher rate than the terrorists have done?  One is obliged to ponder the question: Just who is the more lethal enemy here?  And Why?
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Tank on February 15, 2018, 07:08:01 AM
Florida shooting: At least 17 dead in high school attack (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-43066226)

QuoteAt least 17 people are dead after a 19-year-old man opened fire at a high school campus in Parkland, Florida, police have said.

The suspect has been named as Nikolas Cruz, a former student at the school who had been expelled.

As the attack unfolded students were forced to hide as police swooped in on the building.

It is the deadliest school shooting since 26 people were killed at Connecticut school Sandy Hook in 2012.

It is the sixth school shooting incident in 2018 that has either wounded or killed students

Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Dave on February 15, 2018, 08:12:42 AM
Wonder what the NRAs response will be this time.

It seems there have been a total of 18 incidents where firearms were discharged on school premises do far this year.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/feb/14/school-shootings-in-america-2018-how-many-so-far
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Sandra Craft on February 15, 2018, 09:41:19 AM
Quote from: Dave on February 15, 2018, 08:12:42 AM
Wonder what the NRAs response will be this time.


The same as it always is: "guns don't kill people, people kill people".

In the meantime, this was posted on FB by Craig Hardegree, which I think is a brilliant response to the same old/same old thinking -- not that it will make any difference:

"Thoughts and prayers.

Useless and meaningless.

Why do conservatives favor laws restricting the free flow of opioids into our society? Can't we just send our thoughts and prayers to families of victims? Can't we just pray away the evil and leave the drugs to be freely used by law-abiding citizens who have a legitimate need for them?

Why do conservatives favor laws restricting abortion? Can't we just send our thoughts and prayers to the fetuses?

Why do conservatives favor laws restricting marriage? Can't they just pray that their one man or one woman won't cheat on them or beat on them, instead of trying to use laws to restrict the rights of others in order to "strengthen traditional marriage"?

Why do conservatives favor laws restricting a person's gender to the one printed on her birth certificate? Can't they just send us some thoughts and prayers and otherwise stay the hell out of our business?

When a terrorist tried to blow up a plane with a shoe bomb, we didn't send thoughts and prayers; we made everyone remove their shoes at the airport.

When a terrorist tried to blow up a plane with a six-inch bottle of PETN sewn into his underwear, we didn't send thoughts and prayers; we restricted bottles to three ounces and started looking inside everyone's underwear.

Why do conservatives want to use the power of the federal government to dictate the most intimate personal none-of-their-business details of the lives of law-abiding citizens, but only want to use "thought and prayers" to try to curb the scourge of mass shootings in America?"
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Dave on February 15, 2018, 11:58:47 AM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on February 15, 2018, 09:41:19 AM
Quote from: Dave on February 15, 2018, 08:12:42 AM
Wonder what the NRAs response will be this time.


The same as it always is: "guns don't kill people, people kill people".

To which the response is, "Then only total idiots would give millions of random people access to potential instruments of death when a percentage of those will inevitably suffer adverse psychological or psychiatric change at some point in their life."

Perhaps only bolt action rifles and single action revolvers should be allowed to the general public, if they insist on bring armed. You can still competition shoot and hunt with those but they give victims half a chance.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Papasito Bruno on February 15, 2018, 06:16:44 PM
So for those of us living in the USofA, 2018 has come down to watching children live tweet "mass shootings" at their schools, while other kids who've survived school shootings talk them through it.



Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Sandra Craft on February 15, 2018, 10:36:20 PM
Quote from: Dave on February 15, 2018, 11:58:47 AM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on February 15, 2018, 09:41:19 AM
Quote from: Dave on February 15, 2018, 08:12:42 AM
Wonder what the NRAs response will be this time.


The same as it always is: "guns don't kill people, people kill people".

To which the response is, "Then only total idiots would give millions of random people access to potential instruments of death when a percentage of those will inevitably suffer adverse psychological or psychiatric change at some point in their life."


The NRA believes that more guns will mean less gun violence the same way the GOP believes in trickle-down economics -- it's never worked before but keep trying that one solution because maybe someday magic will make it work.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Icarus on February 16, 2018, 01:49:04 AM
I am on board with those of us who are rational thinkers about gun violence, or any other kind of senseless violence.  In the case of the shooter here in South Florida, it could have been predicted that the young man was in danger of coming unglued. He was a decent looking kid but he was slight of build and would have been vulnerable to bullying. Add that to the fact that he had lost both his mother and father to untimely deaths, he was living in an adopted home and he is slightly autistic.  That is a perfect setup for having an episode of behavior that has the strong potential for becoming totally irrational.

This is certainly not to apologize for that young mans decision to wreak havoc on innocent high school students. It is to wonder why he could not have been recognized as a potential danger. Our system is failing us in terms of gun control but also in terms of failure to recognize potential danger.

I will not keep the families of the murdered students in my thoughts and prayers but I will honestly shed some tears for them.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Dave on February 16, 2018, 08:25:32 AM
Just been listening to some interviews with the kids who durbived the latest shooting. Mostly of the, "We want answers and solutions, not appologies, excuses or condolences" variety. But (recognising the editing policy) one boy, leader of the school cadet unit, csme out with the usual, "We don't need gun cintrol, it's people that kill. If the school guard had had a gun he could have taken the shooter out earlier.

The irony that schools need guards, let alone armed guards, seemed to pass him by. It spoke volumes about gunners' expectations of what constitutes "normal" life.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Davin on February 16, 2018, 01:59:06 PM
I don't see how the kid could even have used the AR15 in that way. I mean guns are for protection right?
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on February 16, 2018, 07:47:07 PM
The FBI dropped the ball on this one. They were clearly warned - twice - about this guy, and did not follow up. They have admitted they screwed up.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Dave on February 16, 2018, 08:11:52 PM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on February 16, 2018, 07:47:07 PM
The FBI dropped the ball on this one. They were clearly warned - twice - about this guy, and did not follow up. They have admitted they screwed up.

It's a side issue but this sort of thing may give Trump further ammo to undermine the FBI. In his usual hypocritical way using it to take the focus off the real issue - the proliferation of guns - and onto poor monitoring and control of mental illness. Whilst probably cutting funds needed for measures to fix those problems to pay for border walls etc.

Later: I should add to this that if the FBI had to fully investigate every gun owner or person with access reported as being dodgy would they have time for anything else?
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Icarus on February 16, 2018, 11:38:37 PM
The reality is that 35,000 FBI people go about their work every day and they prevent hundreds of potential murders every day.  Yes, the local agents or someone some where along the line, dropped the ball on this one.  It was a serious lapse.  We will never know how many other tragedies that they prevented on the very same day. They do not get much publicity about the positive things that they do.

Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on February 17, 2018, 12:42:40 AM
Quote from: Icarus on February 16, 2018, 11:38:37 PM
The reality is that 35,000 FBI people go about their work every day and they prevent hundreds of potential murders every day.  Yes, the local agents or someone some where along the line, dropped the ball on this one.  It was a serious lapse.  We will never know how many other tragedies that they prevented on the very same day. They do not get much publicity about the positive things that they do.

Agreed. They do a great job and drop few balls.  Unfortunately, this is one they dropped.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Dave on February 17, 2018, 06:31:51 AM
Quote from: Icarus on February 16, 2018, 11:38:37 PM
The reality is that 35,000 FBI people go about their work every day and they prevent hundreds of potential murders every day.  Yes, the local agents or someone some where along the line, dropped the ball on this one.  It was a serious lapse.  We will never know how many other tragedies that they prevented on the very same day. They do not get much publicity about the positive things that they do.

The last part is so true, a thousand successes are just accepted as normal, a single error can not to be tolerated. Though this was, unfortunately, a significant error.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Tom62 on February 17, 2018, 03:52:01 PM
The German satire site "Der Postillon" had a hilarious article about it  (http://www.der-postillon.com/2018/02/nra-schulen.html). For those of you who don't speak German, here follows the (Google) translation.

Quote
Thursday, February 15, 2018
US arms lobby calls for ban on schools

Parkland, Fairfax (dpo) - Following the recent rampage of a 17-death school in Florida, Florida, initial political consequences could soon follow. To prevent such mishaps in the future, the US arms lobby NRA (National Rifle Association) has called for a nationwide ban on schools.

"After a tragedy like parkland, there are always hysterical voices that want to regulate or even ban weapons," explains NRA chief Wayne LaPierre. "But according to our surveys, weapons are not the main cause of school massacres, but schools."

In 2018, for example, there were already 18 shootings at US schools, while in the entire history of the United States, no school massacre has ever been done outside a school.

"If we want to protect our children, then we have to close those terrible places and barricade ourselves armed to their teeth at home," says LaPierre. "You'll see that as soon as there are no more schools in the US, the number of school shootings and mass murders in schools will quickly fall to zero."

The NRA's plan is likely to find many supporters in Washington - after all, schools with educational themes such as evolution, global warming, geography, human reproduction, and other socialist propaganda have long been a thorn in the side of many Republicans.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: hermes2015 on February 17, 2018, 06:26:08 PM
Quote from: Tom62 on February 17, 2018, 03:52:01 PM
The German satire site "Der Postillon" had a hilarious article about it  (http://www.der-postillon.com/2018/02/nra-schulen.html). For those of you who don't speak German, here follows the (Google) translation.

Quote
Thursday, February 15, 2018
US arms lobby calls for ban on schools

Parkland, Fairfax (dpo) - Following the recent rampage of a 17-death school in Florida, Florida, initial political consequences could soon follow. To prevent such mishaps in the future, the US arms lobby NRA (National Rifle Association) has called for a nationwide ban on schools.

"After a tragedy like parkland, there are always hysterical voices that want to regulate or even ban weapons," explains NRA chief Wayne LaPierre. "But according to our surveys, weapons are not the main cause of school massacres, but schools."

In 2018, for example, there were already 18 shootings at US schools, while in the entire history of the United States, no school massacre has ever been done outside a school.

"If we want to protect our children, then we have to close those terrible places and barricade ourselves armed to their teeth at home," says LaPierre. "You'll see that as soon as there are no more schools in the US, the number of school shootings and mass murders in schools will quickly fall to zero."

The NRA's plan is likely to find many supporters in Washington - after all, schools with educational themes such as evolution, global warming, geography, human reproduction, and other socialist propaganda have long been a thorn in the side of many Republicans.

The sad thing is that the adage many a true word is spoken in jest springs to mind.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Icarus on February 17, 2018, 11:04:59 PM
The Germans are displaying a plucky sense of humor.  The article is almost a taunting one and we damned well deserve it. 

At least there is a hue and cry going on all over the nation.  The thrust of the noise is that "thoughts and prayers" are a bullshit remedy for what is wrong with our system.  Let us hope that enough of a backlash will finally persuade our esteemed law makers to get their heads out of their asses.  Why can a teenager not buy beer or tobacco in Florida but he can buy assault rifles and all the ammunition that he wants.

We do not need to ban guns here in the US.  Maybe we could simply make it an involved process to buy ammunition. 

I resent the hell out of the acknowledged need to have "resource officers" (police) stationed in every school in the land.  What have we wrought here?  Has our society degenerated to this level?  Yes. I am afraid that it has.   
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Dave on February 18, 2018, 07:28:46 AM
I feel your dismay there, Icarus. As you imply using srmed guards (and bullet proof back-packs) are an admittance of defeat, of ignoring the only civilised solution.

There was a sound clip on the radio ss I was reading that, if a rally in Florids with the female speaker "calling BS" on all the excuses for lax gun control, with a chorus of the same phrase from the audience.

Now there is a gun apologist trying to justify keeping guns. "We have to make sure mentally ill and bad guys don''t get guns..." being part of the pattern. So do you subject every gun owner to regular psychological testing to make sure they are not in danger of flipping, are maybe harbouring a festering grudge about an imagined insult to their person? I think it takes a degree of inherent paranoia and/or aggressiveness to want to own firearms for any other use than purely sporting, just the sort of person who should not be allowed to own them.

The argument, "Maybe we should ban trucks as well since they have killed so many in the hands of terrorists..." was also voiced.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Dave on February 18, 2018, 08:34:50 AM
And, my obvious Trumpetine prediction has come true - "The FBI failed to catch the killer because they spent too much time and effort trying to frame me!"

Not sure about the exact structure of the FBI but guessing that those two very different types of investigation, local/criminal and national/political, use rather different resource pools. But, who cares about that if the unthinking masses can be gathered to your side against those dastardly federal types by misrepresenting things? Politics, ennit?

It is also perverting tragedy for personal gain.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Davin on February 19, 2018, 01:49:52 PM
Quote from: Dave on February 18, 2018, 07:28:46 AMNow there is a gun apologist trying to justify keeping guns. "We have to make sure mentally ill and bad guys don''t get guns..." being part of the pattern. So do you subject every gun owner to regular psychological testing to make sure they are not in danger of flipping, are maybe harbouring a festering grudge about an imagined insult to their person? I think it takes a degree of inherent paranoia and/or aggressiveness to want to own firearms for any other use than purely sporting, just the sort of person who should not be allowed to own them.
Most pro gun people agree with the idea of not letting criminals or the severely mentally ill to get guns, but fewer want to take measures to do something about it. Like background checks and banning even personal sales without them.

Quote from: DaveThe argument, "Maybe we should ban trucks as well since they have killed so many in the hands of terrorists..." was also voiced.
At least it is illegal to operate a motor vehicle in public without a license which requires passing a test or two to show competency, something not true about guns in most states. That is how I usually respond to people saying something similar.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on February 19, 2018, 03:34:38 PM
Quote from: Davin on February 19, 2018, 01:49:52 PM
Like background checks and banning even personal sales without them.

We ought to at least start with this and also requiring some level of training.  Surely this would not be too burdensome.  If that works to reduce this type of event, great.  If not, go on with more restrictive methods.  But at least start with something.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Dave on February 19, 2018, 04:36:54 PM
Quote from: Davin on February 19, 2018, 01:49:52 PM
Quote from: Dave on February 18, 2018, 07:28:46 AMNow there is a gun apologist trying to justify keeping guns. "We have to make sure mentally ill and bad guys don''t get guns..." being part of the pattern. So do you subject every gun owner to regular psychological testing to make sure they are not in danger of flipping, are maybe harbouring a festering grudge about an imagined insult to their person? I think it takes a degree of inherent paranoia and/or aggressiveness to want to own firearms for any other use than purely sporting, just the sort of person who should not be allowed to own them.
Most pro gun people agree with the idea of not letting criminals or the severely mentally ill to get guns, but fewer want to take measures to do something about it. Like background checks and banning even personal sales without them.
Quote
[quoter=Dave]The argument, "Maybe we should ban trucks as well since they have killed so many in the hands of terrorists..." was also voiced.
At least it is illegal to operate a motor vehicle in public without a license which requires passing a test or two to show competency, something not true about guns in most states. That is how I usually respond to people saying something similar.

I have noticed that reluctance.

QuotePresident Donald Trump supports efforts to improve the federal background check system for gun purchases, the White House has said, less than a week after a school shooting in Florida resulted in the deaths of 17 people.  (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-gun-control-florida-shooting-background-checks-school-deaths-a8217891.html)

Now, let's see how he defines "improvement"!

I like the license argument, seennit before but forgotten it.

But . . . The person who passes the background test today may be a different personality, in the future, after being jilted, expelled, sacked or whatever. Perhaps there should be an annual retest, entirely at the gun owner's expence. That would help reduce unemployment. I don't think there will ever be an acceptable, to all, solution to this short of something close to a natiinal civil uprising.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Davin on February 19, 2018, 04:40:49 PM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on February 19, 2018, 03:34:38 PM
Quote from: Davin on February 19, 2018, 01:49:52 PM
Like background checks and banning even personal sales without them.

We ought to at least start with this and also requiring some level of training.  Surely this would not be too burdensome.  If that works to reduce this type of event, great.  If not, go on with more restrictive methods.  But at least start with something.
I think it will also reduce the amount of criminals having guns. Will it stop them? No, but it will make them more expensive because the black market is much more expensive than the legal market. And anything that increases those costs reduces the amount of criminals that can afford them.

And if they can just get a knife anyway... well good, I prefer my chances against a criminal with knife over a criminal with a gun. A nervous knife finger doesn't make the criminal accidentally stab someone. And the few times I've been on the wrong end of a gun during a robbery, there's not much scarier than a shaky hand with a finger on the trigger when the gun is pointed at my head.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Davin on February 19, 2018, 04:44:20 PM
Quote from: Dave on February 19, 2018, 04:36:54 PM
Quote from: Davin on February 19, 2018, 01:49:52 PM
Quote from: Dave on February 18, 2018, 07:28:46 AMNow there is a gun apologist trying to justify keeping guns. "We have to make sure mentally ill and bad guys don''t get guns..." being part of the pattern. So do you subject every gun owner to regular psychological testing to make sure they are not in danger of flipping, are maybe harbouring a festering grudge about an imagined insult to their person? I think it takes a degree of inherent paranoia and/or aggressiveness to want to own firearms for any other use than purely sporting, just the sort of person who should not be allowed to own them.
Most pro gun people agree with the idea of not letting criminals or the severely mentally ill to get guns, but fewer want to take measures to do something about it. Like background checks and banning even personal sales without them.
Quote from: DaveThe argument, "Maybe we should ban trucks as well since they have killed so many in the hands of terrorists..." was also voiced.
At least it is illegal to operate a motor vehicle in public without a license which requires passing a test or two to show competency, something not true about guns in most states. That is how I usually respond to people saying something similar.

I have noticed that reluctance.

QuotePresident Donald Trump supports efforts to improve the federal background check system for gun purchases, the White House has said, less than a week after a school shooting in Florida resulted in the deaths of 17 people.  (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-gun-control-florida-shooting-background-checks-school-deaths-a8217891.html)

Now, let's see how he defines "improvement"!

I like the license argument, seennit before but forgotten it.

But . . . The person who passes the background test today may be a different personality, in the future, after being jilted, expelled, sacked or whatever. Perhaps there should be an annual retest, entirely at the gun owner's expence. That would help reduce unemployment. I don't think there will ever be an acceptable, to all, solution to this short of something close to a natiinal civil uprising.
As much as I dislike Trump, he's got to do something right eventually... I mean, even by accident right?

If a license is on the table, then I think it should be a four year one and require a renewal process that re-evaluates the person. A lot of drivers licenses work that way, it wouldn't be a completely foreign process.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Dave on February 19, 2018, 04:45:43 PM
It seems that some are saying they will vote for Emma Gonzalez, the students' spokesperdon and march organiser, if she ever went into politics.

QuoteFlorida school shooting: Students to march on Washington

Young survivors of Wednesday's school shooting in Florida have announced a national march on Washington to demand political action on gun control.

Student organisers told US media that they were determined to make Wednesday's shooting a turning point in the national gun debate.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-43105701

Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Icarus on February 19, 2018, 07:53:34 PM
I can get on board with this teachers attitude about the need for functional societal norms. .  http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5407511/Florida-teacher-Facebook-post-gun-violence-goes-viral.html

Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Dave on February 19, 2018, 08:07:52 PM
Quote from: Icarus on February 19, 2018, 07:53:34 PM
I can get on board with this teachers attitude about the need for functional societal norms. .  http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5407511/Florida-teacher-Facebook-post-gun-violence-goes-viral.html

Yes, I'll follow you on that! If parents of misbehaving kids could be subjected to a threat of punishment it might help, though it is hard to imagine a punishment that did not make some situations worse - no point in fining an already financially struggling family. I am sure that I have read ideas of "parenting classes" where both parents and kids have to attend, discuss, role play etc.

Too late, perhaps, for the current generation and no politician wants to commit funding etc beyond their expected ter,m. It would have to be a binding, all party scheme that even a president would be allowed scrap. But it might take ten years to design and set up. In the mean time stricter controls on access to guns is essential.

We may be in for interesting times.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on February 19, 2018, 08:29:36 PM
Maybe this has already been posted, but this Wiki article gives some good info on the Federal Assault Weapons ban that was in effect from 1994 to 2004 in the US. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Assault_Weapons_Ban

Look at the graph down in the article showing mass killings over the past 25 years or so.  When the weapons were banned, there was only one year when such killings were high.  Afterward, it skyrocketed. 
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Dave on February 19, 2018, 09:17:29 PM
I misread something!
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on February 19, 2018, 09:23:46 PM
Quote from: Dave on February 19, 2018, 09:17:29 PM
I misread something!

?? What did you misread?
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Dave on February 19, 2018, 09:57:29 PM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on February 19, 2018, 09:23:46 PM
Quote from: Dave on February 19, 2018, 09:17:29 PM
I misread something!

?? What did you misread?

One of the graphs, thought it said 2018 was the second highest death count at less than two months into the year! But, even then, those graphs show the size and one of the possible causes of the problem.

My nature wants to see those plots against the incidence of verbal violence on anti-social media and maybe a few other social and political metrics.

Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Dave on February 22, 2018, 07:15:34 AM
Oh, what a surprise! Trump grabbed a suggestion, by one of the fathers of one of the killed kids thst teachers and voaches be srmed with both hsnds!

Quote"If you had a teacher who was adept with the firearm, they could end the attack very quickly," he said, stating that schools could arm up to 20% of their teachers to stop "maniacs" who may try and attack them.
"This would be obviously only for people who were very adept at handling a gun, and it would be, it's called concealed carry, where a teacher would have a concealed gun on them. They'd go for special training and they would be there and you would no longer have a gun-free zone," Trump said. "Gun-free zone to a maniac -- because they're all cowards -- a gun-free zone is 'let's go in and let's attack because bullets aren't coming back at us.' "
https://edition.cnn.com/2018/02/21/politics/trump-listening-sessions-parkland-students/index.html

And so the madness goes on, unless the sane ones can make enough noise.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Dave on February 22, 2018, 07:19:56 AM
Oh, what a surprise! Trump grabbed a suggestion, by one of the fathers of one of the killed kids, that teachers and coaches be armed with both hands!

Quote"If you had a teacher who was adept with the firearm, they could end the attack very quickly," he said, stating that schools could arm up to 20% of their teachers to stop "maniacs" who may try and attack them.
"This would be obviously only for people who were very adept at handling a gun, and it would be, it's called concealed carry, where a teacher would have a concealed gun on them. They'd go for special training and they would be there and you would no longer have a gun-free zone," Trump said. "Gun-free zone to a maniac -- because they're all cowards -- a gun-free zone is 'let's go in and let's attack because bullets aren't coming back at us.' "
https://edition.cnn.com/2018/02/21/politics/trump-listening-sessions-parkland-students/index.html

And so the madness goes on, unless the sane ones can make enough national noise. But the anger of the mad armed ones may cause a violent reaction.

Later: reviewing this news again: Trump's comments on "gun free zones" being dangerous applies only because they would be islands of sanity in a sea of madness!

Ecpecting logic, even common sense, from the likes of Trump is an expectation too far.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Essie Mae on February 22, 2018, 10:07:20 AM
Must not go to lesson without my Smith and Wesson.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Tank on February 22, 2018, 12:44:30 PM
Quote from: Essie Mae on February 22, 2018, 10:07:20 AM
Must not go to lesson without my Smith and Wesson.
How is your knee?
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Davin on February 22, 2018, 01:33:49 PM
It's all OK now, the problem is solved.

http://www.tampabay.com/blogs/gradebook/2018/02/21/florida-house-approves-bill-to-post-in-god-we-trust-in-all-public-schools/ (http://www.tampabay.com/blogs/gradebook/2018/02/21/florida-house-approves-bill-to-post-in-god-we-trust-in-all-public-schools/)
QuoteThe bill (HB 839) would require all public schools to post the state motto, "In God We Trust," in a "conspicuous place."

Sponsor Rep. Kim Daniels, a Jacksonville Democrat who runs her own ministry, said Florida needed the legislation, given the goings on in the state.

"He is not a Republican or a Democrat. He is not black or white," Daniels said. "He is the light, and our schools need light in them like never before."[...]

"We cannot put God in a closet when the issues we face are bigger than us," she said, urging colleagues to back the bill.

[gifv]https://i.imgur.com/atRqEvx.mp4[/gifv]
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Dave on February 22, 2018, 01:45:20 PM
Quote from: Davin on February 22, 2018, 01:33:49 PM
It's all OK now, the problem is solved.

http://www.tampabay.com/blogs/gradebook/2018/02/21/florida-house-approves-bill-to-post-in-god-we-trust-in-all-public-schools/ (http://www.tampabay.com/blogs/gradebook/2018/02/21/florida-house-approves-bill-to-post-in-god-we-trust-in-all-public-schools/)
QuoteThe bill (HB 839) would require all public schools to post the state motto, "In God We Trust," in a "conspicuous place."

Sponsor Rep. Kim Daniels, a Jacksonville Democrat who runs her own ministry, said Florida needed the legislation, given the goings on in the state.

"He is not a Republican or a Democrat. He is not black or white," Daniels said. "He is the light, and our schools need light in them like never before."[...]

"We cannot put God in a closet when the issues we face are bigger than us," she said, urging colleagues to back the bill.

[gifv]https://i.imgur.com/atRqEvx.mp4[/gifv]

Phew, that's a relief, the Lord be praised.

:eyeroll:
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Harmonie on February 22, 2018, 07:35:10 PM
Quote from: Davin on February 22, 2018, 01:33:49 PM
It's all OK now, the problem is solved.

http://www.tampabay.com/blogs/gradebook/2018/02/21/florida-house-approves-bill-to-post-in-god-we-trust-in-all-public-schools/ (http://www.tampabay.com/blogs/gradebook/2018/02/21/florida-house-approves-bill-to-post-in-god-we-trust-in-all-public-schools/)
QuoteThe bill (HB 839) would require all public schools to post the state motto, "In God We Trust," in a "conspicuous place."

Sponsor Rep. Kim Daniels, a Jacksonville Democrat who runs her own ministry, said Florida needed the legislation, given the goings on in the state.

"He is not a Republican or a Democrat. He is not black or white," Daniels said. "He is the light, and our schools need light in them like never before."[...]

"We cannot put God in a closet when the issues we face are bigger than us," she said, urging colleagues to back the bill.

[gifv]https://i.imgur.com/atRqEvx.mp4[/gifv]

I originally read the word "bill" in the last line as "bull", and I can't help but feel that would have been more appropriate.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Davin on February 22, 2018, 07:44:15 PM
Quote from: Harmonie on February 22, 2018, 07:35:10 PM
I originally read the word "bill" in the last line as "bull", and I can't help but feel that would have been more appropriate.

It was passed by a vote of 97 against 10. Hopefully the constitution will win out on challenges. But I'm getting a 1950s kind of vibe where the religious assholes take advantage of a situation and the rest of us have to live with it for decades all the while other religious assholes point at it and say something stupid like, "See? That shows that we're a Christian country."
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Essie Mae on February 22, 2018, 08:42:21 PM
Quote from: Tank on February 22, 2018, 12:44:30 PM
Quote from: Essie Mae on February 22, 2018, 10:07:20 AM
Must not go to lesson without my Smith and Wesson.
How is your knee?

Much better thanks; I can walk without aid but not very quickly. Still waiting to see surgeon and for 'emergency physio'. I have found the relevant, simple exercises online. Found using the stick unbalanced me too much so best to do without.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Tank on February 22, 2018, 09:20:28 PM
Quote from: Essie Mae on February 22, 2018, 08:42:21 PM
Quote from: Tank on February 22, 2018, 12:44:30 PM
Quote from: Essie Mae on February 22, 2018, 10:07:20 AM
Must not go to lesson without my Smith and Wesson.
How is your knee?

Much better thanks; I can walk without aid but not very quickly. Still waiting to see surgeon and for 'emergency physio'. I have found the relevant, simple exercises online. Found using the stick unbalanced me too much so best to do without.

Good news.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Harmonie on February 22, 2018, 11:41:51 PM
Quote from: Davin on February 22, 2018, 07:44:15 PM
Quote from: Harmonie on February 22, 2018, 07:35:10 PM
I originally read the word "bill" in the last line as "bull", and I can't help but feel that would have been more appropriate.

It was passed by a vote of 97 against 10. Hopefully the constitution will win out on challenges. But I'm getting a 1950s kind of vibe where the religious assholes take advantage of a situation and the rest of us have to live with it for decades all the while other religious assholes point at it and say something stupid like, "See? That shows that we're a Christian country."

There's nothing we can do because it is already established as the "official motto" even though it is a horrendous motto no matter which way I try to look at it.

However, right now it's just straight up unbearably "offensive", for lack of a better term. Mass shootings are happening regularly, and the only thing that the people in power can come up with is "We need God in schools!". You know, it already infuriates me enough that when any tragedy happens it's always "#Prayfor___" and never anything of actual substance.

It's just completely absurd that we're clinging to a myth from two thousand years ago... That we think that our modern form of 'rituals' to some deity that has no proof of existence will mean anything at all. Normally it's just embarrassing to me, but now it's just... as, I said, offensive. Because real existent things actually need to get done, but instead not only are people doing the usual meaningless "#Prayfor____" crap, but now the legislators are doing the same crap, just taking it a step further instead of actually doing anything!

Wonder how many people who call bringing up gun control following shootings (which happen so often) "politicizing" don't think that this is politicizing because it damn well is. And it's worthless. It's a slap in the face to the victims, the children and teachers who survived the shooting and are traumatized, and the children and teachers who have to go to school every single day afraid that it will be their last time.

We don't want ridiculous woo rituals to deities without proof, we want action!
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Essie Mae on February 24, 2018, 08:57:51 AM
God; guns; sorted.

I hope it's not offensive, but there were some funny tweets from Brit teachers responding to guns in the classroom.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Tank on February 24, 2018, 09:02:40 AM
Quote from: Essie Mae on February 24, 2018, 08:57:51 AM
God; guns; sorted.

I hope it's not offensive, but there were some funny tweets from Brit teachers responding to guns in the classroom.


My wife has been telling me some of them :rofl:
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Icarus on February 26, 2018, 02:07:22 AM
FWIW most of our American teachers are not at all on board with the guns in class madness.  They want to teach, they assuredly do not want to become involved in the Shootout At The OK Corral.  The wild west scenario is for the movies not the classroom.   Not that teachers are cowards, Far from it. I know more than a few women who have more grit than many of the men I know. 

My own take on that line of reasoning is,that for one thing, a revolver or a Glock nine, is a damned poor match for a nutter with an AK 47.  The other thing is that if  a teacher fires back we now have bullets flying in two directions. I don't want my kid to be in the middle of that kind of action.

Here is where I want my kid to be.  He or she would make me very proud to become involved and active with the groundswell of opposition to gun stupidity that the kids have created.  Those kids are experts in the use of social media.   They can mobilize kids all over the nation. I hope that they do. .... One of the bright young girl spokespersons has said on national TV,  " do something or we are coming after you"   She was not threatening to kill the gun nut politicians, She was telling them that they will suffer at the ballot box if they fail to get their shit together.  I hope to hell that she was right and that the current outrage will not be diminished with time.   

Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Dave on February 26, 2018, 07:00:58 AM
Quote from: Icarus on February 26, 2018, 02:07:22 AM
FWIW most of our American teachers are not at all on board with the guns in class madness.  They want to teach, they assuredly do not want to become involved in the Shootout At The OK Corral.  The wild west scenario is for the movies not the classroom.   Not that teachers are cowards, Far from it. I know more than a few women who have more grit than many of the men I know. 

My own take on that line of reasoning is,that for one thing, a revolver or a Glock nine, is a damned poor match for a nutter with an AK 47.  The other thing is that if  a teacher fires back we now have bullets flying in two directions. I don't want my kid to be in the middle of that kind of action.

Here is where I want my kid to be.  He or she would make me very proud to become involved and active with the groundswell of opposition to gun stupidity that the kids have created.  Those kids are experts in the use of social media.   They can mobilize kids all over the nation. I hope that they do. .... One of the bright young girl spokespersons has said on national TV,  " do something or we are coming after you"   She was not threatening to kill the gun nut politicians, She was telling them that they will suffer at the ballot box if they fail to get their shit together.  I hope to hell that she was right and that the current outrage will not be diminished with time.   

If there was crowd funding for those kids and their campaign I would contribute!
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: jumbojak on February 26, 2018, 03:00:21 PM
I hate to be a downer here but I doubt anything will come of it. The whole idea of arming teachers is so ridiculous that I suspect it's a way for the Republican side to be so far away from any sort of compromise solution that they never have to commit to doing anything meaningful and can maintain the status quo.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Dave on February 27, 2018, 08:22:16 AM
Replying in "Reasons to be cheerful" on Sandy's comment about middle aged white men geing afraid of a teenage Latina girl with a buzz cut . .

Let's just hope that she has the integrity not to be corrupted by the system she is challenging, not get down to their level of intrigue, blackmail and subversion. As she increases the numbers of her supporters she increases the chance of subversive elements getting in. I would not put it past certain organisations  to "'introduce" violent people to get her movement a bad name.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Sandra Craft on February 27, 2018, 09:34:35 AM
Quote from: Dave on February 27, 2018, 08:22:16 AM
Replying in "Reasons to be cheerful" on Sandy's comment about middle aged white men geing afraid of a teenage Latina girl with a buzz cut . .

Let's just hope that she has the integrity not to be corrupted by the system she is challenging, not get down to their level of intrigue, blackmail and subversion. As she increases the numbers of her supporters she increases the chance of subversive elements getting in. I would not put it past certain organisations  to "'introduce" violent people to get her movement a bad name.

Oh, there's always that, you can't avoid it but if you try you'll end up doing nothing, which is worse.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Dave on February 27, 2018, 10:13:16 AM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on February 27, 2018, 09:34:35 AM
Quote from: Dave on February 27, 2018, 08:22:16 AM
Replying in "Reasons to be cheerful" on Sandy's comment about middle aged white men geing afraid of a teenage Latina girl with a buzz cut . .

Let's just hope that she has the integrity not to be corrupted by the system she is challenging, not get down to their level of intrigue, blackmail and subversion. As she increases the numbers of her supporters she increases the chance of subversive elements getting in. I would not put it past certain organisations  to "'introduce" violent people to get her movement a bad name.

Oh, there's always that, you can't avoid it but if you try you'll end up doing nothing, which is worse.

With that I can only agree! "Wiser counsel" (i.e. all those older and more convoluted minds) will inevitably try to influence the kids but, excepting violence and utter chaos, I hope they retain enough control to scare the shit out of the establishment by their actions!
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Sandra Craft on February 27, 2018, 10:16:00 PM
Quote from: Dave on February 27, 2018, 10:13:16 AM

With that I can only agree! "Wiser counsel" (i.e. all those older and more convoluted minds) will inevitably try to influence the kids but, excepting violence and utter chaos, I hope they retain enough control to scare the shit out of the establishment by their actions!

:beer:
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Icarus on February 28, 2018, 12:12:27 AM
When the preservation of civil liberties and the second amendment, nd the first, run amok.........................

Here is a news bulletin that explains the thoughts behind the opening sentence.

Dateline: Newfoundland Pennsylvania.

School to close for church ceremony using AR-15 rifles.

A Pennsylvania school district will cancel classes at an elementary school on Wednesday.  A church down the street is hosting a ceremony featuring AR-15 rifles.

World Peace and Unification Sanctuary, in Newfoundland, believes that the AR-15 symbolizes the "rod of iron" in the biblical book of revelations.  The church is encouraging couples to bring their  weapons to a commitment ceremony.

On Friday the superintendent of the area school district wrote in a letter to parents; "while there is no direct threat to our school community and the nature of the event, students will be bused to schools 15 miles away"

I did not make this up.  It is a presumed AP release.....Newfoundland Pennsylvania is not the big island Canadian maritime. Let us hope that this news release is  the illegitimate  result of a Russian hacker plot to make us crazy.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: jumbojak on February 28, 2018, 05:21:47 AM
Before you know it we'll be casting aside the stars and stripes for a new flag modeled on Mozambique's.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Dave on February 28, 2018, 10:13:07 PM
Quote
Gun store owner stops selling AR-15s to people under 21
https://edition.cnn.com/2018/02/20/us/jason-cazes-raising-age-limit-to-buy-gun-cnntv/index.html

QuoteDick's Sporting Goods, Major Gun Retailer, Stops Selling Assault-Style Weapons
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/28/business/dicks-major-gun-retailer-will-stop-selling-assault-style-rifles.html

After some corporations have stopped sponsoring the NRA are these more cracks in the gunslingers' armour?
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Recusant on March 01, 2018, 02:04:18 AM
Not exactly the best advertisement for the idea of getting teachers to carry guns in school.

"Georgia teacher arrested after police say he fired gun in classroom, no one hurt" | Chicago Tribune (http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/ct-georgia-school-shots-fired-20180228-story.html)

QuoteA teacher was taken into custody Wednesday after he fired at least one shot inside a Georgia classroom, police said.

Jesse Randall Davidson, a 53-year-old social studies teacher, barricaded himself inside a classroom at Dalton High School on Wednesday morning, the Dalton Police Department tweeted.

One student who injured her ankle as the school was being evacuated was treated by medics at the school. No other children were injured or in danger, according to police. The Georgia State Patrol also responded to the incident.

Davidson was charged with aggravated assault, carrying a weapon in a school zone and making terroristic threats, among others, according to Whitfield County Sheriff's Office records.

Frazier said students tried to enter Davidson's classroom about 11:30 a.m., but the teacher wouldn't allow them in, according to video of press conferences posted by WTVC-TV.

[Continues . . . (http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/ct-georgia-school-shots-fired-20180228-story.html)]
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Davin on March 01, 2018, 02:00:50 PM
He was showing some great initiative. That's the kind of thing Trump wants.

Also, after all the scare tactics about Obama and Hillary taking everyone's guns, Trump said:
QuoteTake the guns first, go through due process later.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/donald-trump-take-guns-mental-health-florida-school-shooting-due-process-a8233751.html
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Michael Reilly on March 07, 2018, 12:28:16 AM
The Great State of Florida today decided that arming teachers wasn't a good idea...so they are going to arm librarians. You can't make this up, folks.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/05/us/guns-florida-schools-teachers.html?mtrref=www.google.com&gwh=73D14B84CFFBE4CE1F988CA4F30AAF57&gwt=pay

Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Magdalena on March 07, 2018, 06:14:02 AM
Quote from: Michael Reilly on March 07, 2018, 12:28:16 AM
The Great State of Florida today decided that arming teachers wasn't a good idea...so they are going to arm librarians. You can't make this up, folks.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/05/us/guns-florida-schools-teachers.html?mtrref=www.google.com&gwh=73D14B84CFFBE4CE1F988CA4F30AAF57&gwt=pay
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.reactiongifs.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2012%2F07%2FRDJ_Woah.gif&hash=95b6993075cd2f7aa748056e290d7b3a17bc14d2)
Can you imagine...Conan The Librarian!?

What if my kid doesn't know the decimal system? What if he returns the book late? What if he's too loud?

:worried:
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Tom62 on March 07, 2018, 04:28:44 PM
Quote from: Magdalena on March 07, 2018, 06:14:02 AM
Quote from: Michael Reilly on March 07, 2018, 12:28:16 AM
The Great State of Florida today decided that arming teachers wasn't a good idea...so they are going to arm librarians. You can't make this up, folks.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/05/us/guns-florida-schools-teachers.html?mtrref=www.google.com&gwh=73D14B84CFFBE4CE1F988CA4F30AAF57&gwt=pay
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.reactiongifs.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2012%2F07%2FRDJ_Woah.gif&hash=95b6993075cd2f7aa748056e290d7b3a17bc14d2)
Can you imagine...Conan The Librarian!?

What if my kid doesn't know the decimal system? What if he returns the book late? What if he's too loud?

:worried:

Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Dave on March 07, 2018, 04:37:48 PM
I shouldn't but . . .]

:rofl:
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: xSilverPhinx on March 07, 2018, 05:05:43 PM
(https://scontent.fpoa13-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/28660674_10160182464130553_2585586818620393498_n.jpg?oh=002825fab3d93fe7f4051dc8680a943a&oe=5B00959B)

Ridiculous idea.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: xSilverPhinx on March 07, 2018, 05:08:41 PM
Quote from: Tom62 on March 07, 2018, 04:28:44 PM


:watching:
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Tank on March 10, 2018, 05:22:44 PM
Yountville attack: California hostage-taker was former patient (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-43358268)

QuoteThe man who killed three women after a stand-off at a veterans' home in Napa Valley, California was a former patient, authorities say.

The three victims were all employees at the centre in Yountville.

The residential centre provides mental health services for veterans of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

The suspected gunman, who died at the scene, has been named as Albert Wong, 36. No motive for the attack has been identified, police say.

Wong, reportedly a former US Army rifleman, had left a programme to treat post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD).

The gunman entered the building while employees were having cake as a leaving celebration for some colleagues.

After a siege lasting all day police discovered the four bodies in a room at The Pathway Home on Friday evening...

Tragic. Would proposed gun restrictions based on mental health prevent a vet with PTSD owning a gun? If not should they?
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Dave on March 10, 2018, 05:29:53 PM
I would answer a definite "yes" to your question, Tank, but I would include every person so afflicted, not just vets. PTSD can affect the personality of the sufferer, never in a benericial way.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Tank on March 10, 2018, 05:34:32 PM
Quote from: Dave on March 10, 2018, 05:29:53 PM
I would answer a definite "yes" to your question, Tank, but I would include every person so afflicted, not just vets. PTSD can affect the personality of the sufferer, never in a benericial way.
Good point.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Dave on March 15, 2018, 08:05:39 AM
The kids staged a 17 minutes walk-out, nationwide, in protest against guns and shooting. Wonder if anyone in real authority will admit to getting the message? After all some of them will be out of office or rrtired or something by the time these kids get the vote.

And some of the schools threaten to suspend the kids - how petty pathetic. Hope the suspendees use the time for further demonstration.

QuoteWednesday walkout: students step out of class to spur action on gun control – live

Thousands of students at schools across the country walked out of class today, took a knee inside their school building or linked arms in class hallways to memorialize those who have died in gun violence and to demand more action from US lawmakers.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/live/2018/mar/14/wednesday-walkout-gun-control-parkland-florida-students-live

Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: No one on March 15, 2018, 09:54:35 AM
Where there's a will, there's a way. If someone is determined to do something, they will find a way to prevail, no matter what laws stand in their way. Humans are cunning, resourceful, little bastards.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Dave on March 15, 2018, 10:05:12 AM
Quote from: No one on March 15, 2018, 09:54:35 AM
Where there's a will, there's a way. If someone is determined to do something, they will find a way to prevail, no matter what laws stand in their way. Humans are cunning, resourceful, little bastards.

Trouble is, short of going outside the law, that works both wsys - intransigent, hidebound,  establishment, traditional, and conservative attitudes hold many of the aces here. Could take some time  and mental/emotional stamina.

I wish them luck and would still be willing to contribute to any crowd funding that is properly set up.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Papasito Bruno on March 25, 2018, 12:41:07 AM
Emma Gonzalez Is Responsible for the Loudest Silence in the History of US Social Protest.



Quote"Six minutes and about 20 seconds. In a little over six minutes, 17 of our friends were taken from us." That's how Emma Gonzalez, a senior at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School and one of the organizers of the March for Our Lives, began her remarkable speech on Saturday afternoon at the rally in Washington, DC.


For me personally I am in awe of the strength of this young woman...simply the most powerful thing I've ever witnessed.


Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Tank on March 25, 2018, 05:28:02 AM
That is powerful. Obama wouldn't take the guns, Emma and her fellow survivors just might.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Dave on March 25, 2018, 09:16:41 AM
Quote from: Tank on March 25, 2018, 05:28:02 AM
That is powerful. Obama wouldn't take the guns, Emma and her fellow survivors just might.

Whilst the all powerful President of the United States runs off to hide in his hole in Florida.

I am hoping those kids and their supporters can break the paradigm, but stupidity if sp built into some Americans it will be a long struggle. Emma Gomez is a leader in the making - let's hope she remains as true to her principles as power politics can stand. Let's hope the gun-psychos do not consider her a target.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Tank on March 25, 2018, 10:41:17 AM
Of course she's a target to some gun nut out there.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Harmonie on March 25, 2018, 03:44:22 PM
Quote from: Tank on March 25, 2018, 10:41:17 AM
Of course she's a target to some gun nut out there.

When I saw all of these protests going on I was very afraid that some gun nut/terrorist (I'll just call it what it is) would show up and try to start something. I'm happy that nothing happened, but I find it hard to believe. Was there are lot of security for these protests?
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Dave on March 25, 2018, 03:52:30 PM
I would imagine the police were out in large numbers, if only to control traffic.

But the videos are impressive:

https://youtu.be/kPHXApvGwQU

https://youtu.be/kq9hLVuS2D4
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Icarus on March 26, 2018, 12:45:59 AM
Emma Gonzales is a hero for me.  Somehow she managed to hold an audience of hundreds of thousands in almost complete and perhaps reverent silence for six minutes and twenty seconds. Way to go Kid. That was high drama of the first order.

This whole enormous event that went nationwide, even world wide, was a major undertaking that required some very sophisticated planning, directing, and execution. There was plenty of money involved as well.  All this pre-production was done in relative anonymity. Yes, adults with clout were much involved but that takes nothing from the dogged determination of the kids.

It is a near certainty that the media, the TV interviews and all, did do some serious pre- screening to select the most marvelously articulate kids that appeared on the various TV channels.  I am in awe of those kids. I also have he highest praise for the kids who were not given TV interviews. 

One of the notes about the Washington DC event is that there was far less trash strewn on the scene than has been the result of so many other "Marches".  Damn, someone was brilliant with the choreography of these events. A stroke of genius is that no adults were allowed on the stages. The kids can and did prevail.  I almost want to believe in God.

Let us fervently hope that these kids and their advisors will arise in force in late October.....just prior to the mid term elections.   If they/we can pull this off, the message will be dramatically delivered and the NRA and the lackeys that are NRA beneficiaries will be fucked and summarily relieved of their office..  Let us pray.



Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Icarus on March 26, 2018, 03:04:48 AM
And a little bit of sick humor......https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2uTpONBuiI
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Dave on March 29, 2018, 09:54:20 AM
In a prog on the BBC World Service regarding student attitudes to gun control (pro and anti) one of tge pro-control students sais (paraphrased): The United States is the greatest country on Earth but we are afraid of laws that theaten our security."

I wan't to change that to, "The United States is the greatest nation on Earth but we are afraid of each other."

It is not the Red Menace or the Yellow Peril they really worry about, it's the guy down the road with a room full of assault rifles and ammo. Be prepared to get your armed defence in before that nutter starts shooting.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Arturo on March 30, 2018, 10:00:55 PM
So I didn't read this thread. But I'm just going to say this because nobody ever thinks about it.

There are pedophiles in schools. There are pedophiles who are teachers. You want to give every person in a school a gun then you are giving pedophiles guns too. This is literally feeding the fucking problem. Feeding the trolls.Throwing gasoline onto a fire. *rabble rabble*
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Arturo on March 30, 2018, 10:04:53 PM
Quote from: Dave on March 29, 2018, 09:54:20 AM
In a prog on the BBC World Service regarding student attitudes to gun control (pro and anti) one of tge pro-control students sais (paraphrased): The United States is the greatest country on Earth but we are afraid of laws that theaten our security."

I wan't to change that to, "The United States is the greatest nation on Earth but we are afraid of each other."

It is not the Red Menace or the Yellow Peril they really worry about, it's the guy down the road with a room full of assault rifles and ammo. Be prepared to get your armed defence in before that nutter starts shooting.

United States is paranoid for sure. Just looking up the wikipedia article on antimissle defense systems around the time Kim  was saying he was going to bomb the US is rediculous. The USA has so many anitmissle defenses they would all be destroyed before they ever got here. And the USA wants more! The UN had a thing to restrict their building of more back in the 90s (mainly it would use satellites to track missiles but it has never come to fruition) and the US agreed to that but then broke the promise and started researching more missile defense systems although poorly funded.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Dave on May 05, 2018, 11:05:46 AM
This links on from Trump's stream of stupidity at the NRA conference on tge "Duie of Bullshit" thread  There were comments about violence in Britain and France, where guns are very restricted. London was mentioned specifically as having a hospital with it floors running with, blood, a "warzone".

QuoteTrump says London hospital 'a warzone' for stabbing victims as he defends US gun laws..

"I recently read a story that in London — which has unbelievably tough gun laws — a once very prestigious hospital, right in the middle, is like a war zone for horrible stabbing wounds," Mr Trump said.
"Yes, that's right. They don't have guns," he continued. "They have knives. And, instead, there's blood all over the floors of this hospital. They say it's as bada as a military war zone hospital. knives, knives knives. London hasn't been used to that. They're getting used to it. It's pretty tough."

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-nra-speech-london-warzone-gun-control-second-amendment-a8337256.html

Perdonally I do not think the weapon used matters much, it is the underlying violence in society that causes one person to kill another. But, in mass killings (on both dides of tge Pond) the fifference is the number of killing per minute - there guns, and epecially semis, are more dangerous by a large factor.

There has been a surge in knife viooence in London, not the first in my memory - there was a "knife amnesty" some years ago because of a peak in incedents. That was pre UK gun control and pre antisocial media.

According to the BBC:

QuoteAccording to the newspaper, London overtook New York's "murder rate" in February "as the capital endured a dramatic surge in knife crime".

That is true. The New York Police Department dealt with 11 homicides in February - while London's Metropolitan Police opened investigations into 15 deaths. And in March, there were 22 killings in London and one fewer on the other side of the Atlantic.

But that grim month-by-month tally is not quite the whole story.

The one thing that's always true about statistics is that there will be blips - sudden rises or falls in the data. These two high months for London could ultimately turn out to be outliers.

We don't yet know. But older data shows why we should be cautious.

In January, for example, the Met investigated eight murders in London. The NYPD looked into 18 killings.

And that means that while Scotland Yard has opened 48 homicide inquiries so far this year, New York has in fact opened 50 murder files.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43628494

Looking at another large American city, Chicago, though I am unsure about the actual site chances are the stats are accurate, it's just the best presentation that I can find quickly:

(https://imgur.com/SU3e3Qm.jpg)

https://heyjackass.com


It seems that Trump also reneged on what he sais, after the public display over Parkland, to tighten up on gun controls, especially age - when it has been well established that kids can go through a, hopefully temporary, periid of mental illness during puberty. That group is also the most vulnerable to pressure, bullying etc on anti-social media. Also, the mental illness front, there is always the chance that this year's mature, stable adult purchaser of a gun can be next year's paranoid killer due to trauma from social, employment or personal pressures - of which America has a good share.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Arturo on May 05, 2018, 02:07:01 PM
It's a lot easier to kill a lot of people with a machine gun than a knife.

As far as I know, the age when kids can go through the "temporary" period of mental illness is in late adolescence when the kid has already graduated high school, or close to.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Dave on May 05, 2018, 03:04:01 PM
Quote from: Arturo on May 05, 2018, 02:07:01 PM
It's a lot easier to kill a lot of people with a machine gun than a knife.

As far as I know, the age when kids can go through the "temporary" period of mental illness is in late adolescence when the kid has already graduated high school, or close to.

You could be right,

QuoteThis fall [2004], the U.S. Supreme Court will consider whether capital crimes by teenagers under 18 should get the death sentence; the case for leniency is based in part on brain studies

http://science.sciencemag.org/content/305/5684/596.full?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&fulltext=neuroscience%20law&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=10&resourcetype=HWCIT

Haven't found any data relating ages of mass shooters yet, Wiki gives the following suggests for motives or reansons:

QuoteContributing factors
There could be several possible factors that work together to create a fertile environment for mass murder in the United States.[34] Most commonly suggested include:

1. Failure of government background checks due to incomplete databases and/or staff shortages.[35][36]
2. Higher accessibility and ownership of guns.[34][6][37] The US has the highest per-capita gun ownership in the world with 88.8 firearms per 100 people; the second highest is Yemen with 54.8 firearms per 100 people.[34]
3. Desire for fame and notoriety.[34][6]
4. The copycat phenomenon.[6]
5. The widespread chronic gap between people's expectations for themselves and their actual achievement,[34] and individualistic culture.[38]
6. It is debatable whether mental illness is also a factor.[39][40][41] Many of the mass shooters in the U.S. suffered from mental illness, but the estimated number of mental illness cases has not increased as significantly as the number of mass shootings.[6]
7. A long history of being severely bullied.[42]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_shootings_in_the_United_States

It could be argued that the implicit definition of "mentsl illness" in that list is dodgy, 3, 4, 5 and 7 might broadly be considered as triggers for or forms of mental illness now that stress, anxiety, PTSD, non-clinical deoression and others tend to be gathered into that basket. Some may be transient but . . .
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: xSilverPhinx on May 05, 2018, 03:14:12 PM
Quote from: Arturo on May 05, 2018, 02:07:01 PM
As far as I know, the age when kids can go through the "temporary" period of mental illness is in late adolescence when the kid has already graduated high school, or close to.

:notsure: I've never heard of this, do you have a source?
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: xSilverPhinx on May 05, 2018, 03:20:39 PM
Quote from: Dave on May 05, 2018, 03:04:01 PM
Quote from: Arturo on May 05, 2018, 02:07:01 PM
It's a lot easier to kill a lot of people with a machine gun than a knife.

As far as I know, the age when kids can go through the "temporary" period of mental illness is in late adolescence when the kid has already graduated high school, or close to.

You could be right,

QuoteThis fall [2004], the U.S. Supreme Court will consider whether capital crimes by teenagers under 18 should get the death sentence; the case for leniency is based in part on brain studies

http://science.sciencemag.org/content/305/5684/596.full?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&fulltext=neuroscience%20law&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=10&resourcetype=HWCIT

The article is available here:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/8424401_Crime_Culpability_and_the_Adolescent_Brain (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/8424401_Crime_Culpability_and_the_Adolescent_Brain)

It talks about brain maturation and implications, but not temporary mental illness in late adolescence...
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Dave on May 05, 2018, 03:31:08 PM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on May 05, 2018, 03:20:39 PM
Quote from: Dave on May 05, 2018, 03:04:01 PM
Quote from: Arturo on May 05, 2018, 02:07:01 PM
It's a lot easier to kill a lot of people with a machine gun than a knife.

As far as I know, the age when kids can go through the "temporary" period of mental illness is in late adolescence when the kid has already graduated high school, or close to.

You could be right,

QuoteThis fall [2004], the U.S. Supreme Court will consider whether capital crimes by teenagers under 18 should get the death sentence; the case for leniency is based in part on brain studies

http://science.sciencemag.org/content/305/5684/596.full?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&fulltext=neuroscience%20law&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=10&resourcetype=HWCIT

The article is available here:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/8424401_Crime_Culpability_and_the_Adolescent_Brain (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/8424401_Crime_Culpability_and_the_Adolescent_Brain)

It talks about brain maturation and implications, but not temporary mental illness in late adolescence...

Hmm, yes, I need another term for temporary mental conditions, that might affect behaviour, other than "mental illness" as a more permanent condition. Perhaps I have been mislead by temporary "induced" conditions (work induced depression etc) being labelled as "mental illness" by radio doctors. I have heard the behaviour expressed by some juveniles described as "temporary insanity".

Is it a matter of semantics or a case lay-speak versus professional terminology?

Later:
OK! The phrase I want is "mental health issue/condition/problem/whatever".  The uses of "meantal illness" and, say, "mental health condition" sometimes a tad abstruse but looking around the latter seems safer to use here. Hmm, but is it similar to the case of comparing psychiatric to psychological?
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Arturo on May 06, 2018, 05:45:07 PM
I don't know if I could find a reliable statistic but the underlying issue is that more mentally ill are in prisons than psychiatric hospitals now. But the violent crimes are like 1-2% people with severe mental illness. So mental illness is not a factor. That is a statistic I could easily get if you wanted it but I'm kind of tired right now and I just want to add to the discussion.

There was a guy on youtube doing a Ted Talk about how mental illness diagnosis are a guessing game because there are no brain scans done to diagnose a patient. Even though they could be done, they don't allow for it because the people who use those specific brain scans said that it is unnecessary for psychologists to use the machines they use for the brain scans. And he says what he found out from looking at them can prevent things such as mass shootings. That the brain scans show that there is brain damage in those who are violent, and that the brain damage is causing it. And that there are methods now that can repair the brain damage and help people in these positions before they ruin their and other people's lives.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Arturo on May 06, 2018, 05:48:02 PM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on May 05, 2018, 03:14:12 PM
Quote from: Arturo on May 05, 2018, 02:07:01 PM
As far as I know, the age when kids can go through the "temporary" period of mental illness is in late adolescence when the kid has already graduated high school, or close to.

:notsure: I've never heard of this, do you have a source?

Yeah I'm sure I could find one somewhere. It has to do with the brain development mostly. But most of the sources I find that say this are speaking of a mental illness anyway and not a statistic.

I'll return when I find something.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Dave on May 06, 2018, 06:39:31 PM
There seem to be several organisations on this side of the Pond dealing with mental health problems in childhood and adolescence. Not many mentions of aggression specifically though (unless you add "aggression" to the search string!)

https://www.mentalhealth.org.uk/a-to-z/c/children-and-young-people

https://www.mentalhealth.org.uk/statistics/mental-health-statistics-children-and-young-people

["Young Minds" is one of the charities I donate to every month, "The National Soc. for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children" being another..]

This is more probably in your line, Silver:

https://www.nature.com/news/2008/080225/full/news.2008.619.html

There are others that needs payment or membership but not a lot linking adolecent mental health and tge use of guns that I can find at the moment. But even Trump said things about mental health needing more attention. Could it be another case of the professionals and politicians shoving the problem behind the curtain because the cure might be financially and politically expensive? Funding depends on politicians.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Dave on May 06, 2018, 09:17:36 PM
QuoteActually, there is a clear link between mass shootings and mental illness
Repeat after me: Mass shooters are not disproportionately mentally ill."

This is the opening line of a meme that's been circulating in the aftermath of the shooting in Parkland, Fla.

But this and other efforts to downplay the role of mental illness in mass shootings are simply misleading. There is a clear relationship between mental illness and mass public shootings.

At the broadest level, peer-reviewed research (https://rd.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10979-006-9018-z?no-access=true) has shown that individuals with major mental disorders (those that substantially interfere with life activities) are more likely to commit violent acts, especially if they abuse drugs. When we focus more narrowly on mass public shootings — an extreme and, fortunately, rare form of violence — we see a relatively high rate of mental illness.

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-duwe-rocque-mass-shootings-mental-illness-20180223-story.html

OK, the above includes all mass public shootings as defined in the article, not a lot about teenagers specifically. But if adolescence does cause problems in affect, mood and behaviour the possibility of a link would not be stupid. But it also hints at an attempt to dissociate mass killings from mental health problems.

Many mass killers die themseoves so there seems to be mainly anecdotal evidence about their perdonalities and demeanor/behaviour. I have not noticed any psych- reports on those mass killers taken into custody, perhaps because I have not followed individual cases in detail or because such details have not been put into the public domain.

And this highlights another point in Trump's crap about London, taking out terrorist action and gang related killings the London numbers would come down. It would take a great number of armed police to guard against those sort of actions. As many as in America, or maybe more, per square mile in all public areas. All America's armed police don't seem to make much of a dent in preventing mass shootings - because it is not possible to do so in a society where firearms are so readily, legally or otherwise, available.

Needed, a comparison, or analysis, of the mental health differences or similarities, in reason/purpose/motive, between a 15 - 25 yo running amock with a firearm in a school or an older person with personal relationship or work grievences in a public place, or even the nutter just "having fun". Then compare those with a person acting out of ideological or religious motives (though one might question the sanity of such people as well or criminal socio/psychopathic motivation.

The wife driven to homicide might well have mitigation in that her husband's actions over a period caused her temporary mental health problems. The other "justified" non-judicial/wartime killing of one person by another might be in self-defence when there is an immediate danger of lethal attack and no viable alternative defence. Like the old guy who was not charged for killing the intruder who attacked him recently.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Arturo on May 07, 2018, 01:36:15 AM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on May 05, 2018, 03:14:12 PM
Quote from: Arturo on May 05, 2018, 02:07:01 PM
As far as I know, the age when kids can go through the "temporary" period of mental illness is in late adolescence when the kid has already graduated high school, or close to.

:notsure: I've never heard of this, do you have a source?

QuoteAlthough less data exist for non‐affective psychosis, available evidence suggests that median AOO is in the range late teens through early 20s.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1925038/

This was in the head notes as apart of the "recent findings" but didn't source to the evidence it suggested. However the DSM-V has a criteria for schizophrenia that a person must be in the age above in order to be diagnosed with so along with other symptoms. So there is something to think about.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Arturo on May 07, 2018, 01:39:46 AM
Quote from: Dave on May 06, 2018, 09:17:36 PM
QuoteActually, there is a clear link between mass shootings and mental illness
Repeat after me: Mass shooters are not disproportionately mentally ill."

This is the opening line of a meme that's been circulating in the aftermath of the shooting in Parkland, Fla.

But this and other efforts to downplay the role of mental illness in mass shootings are simply misleading. There is a clear relationship between mental illness and mass public shootings.

At the broadest level, peer-reviewed research (https://rd.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10979-006-9018-z?no-access=true) has shown that individuals with major mental disorders (those that substantially interfere with life activities) are more likely to commit violent acts, especially if they abuse drugs. When we focus more narrowly on mass public shootings — an extreme and, fortunately, rare form of violence — we see a relatively high rate of mental illness.

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-duwe-rocque-mass-shootings-mental-illness-20180223-story.html

OK, the above includes all mass public shootings as defined in the article, not a lot about teenagers specifically. But if adolescence does cause problems in affect, mood and behaviour the possibility of a link would not be stupid. But it also hints at an attempt to dissociate mass killings from mental health problems.

Many mass killers die themseoves so there seems to be mainly anecdotal evidence about their perdonalities and demeanor/behaviour. I have not noticed any psych- reports on those mass killers taken into custody, perhaps because I have not followed individual cases in detail or because such details have not been put into the public domain.

And this highlights another point in Trump's crap about London, taking out terrorist action and gang related killings the London numbers would come down. It would take a great number of armed police to guard against those sort of actions. As many as in America, or maybe more, per square mile in all public areas. All America's armed police don't seem to make much of a dent in preventing mass shootings - because it is not possible to do so in a society where firearms are so readily, legally or otherwise, available.

Needed, a comparison, or analysis, of the mental health differences or similarities, in reason/purpose/motive, between a 15 - 25 yo running amock with a firearm in a school or an older person with personal relationship or work grievences in a public place, or even the nutter just "having fun". Then compare those with a person acting out of ideological or religious motives (though one might question the sanity of such people as well or criminal socio/psychopathic motivation.

The wife driven to homicide might well have mitigation in that her husband's actions over a period caused her temporary mental health problems. The other "justified" non-judicial/wartime killing of one person by another might be in self-defence when there is an immediate danger of lethal attack and no viable alternative defence. Like the old guy who was not charged for killing the intruder who attacked him recently.

Another thing is that these things don't happen that often. The death rate continues to drop even though there is a war going on in the middle east, and all these mass murders are suddenly being reported. They actually happened a lot but nobody knows about previous ones because they were never put on the news. Just recently they took a liking to putting one on TV every chance they get. Probably because they have to compete with the internet media sources like youtube which get drastically higher numbers than any TV station now days.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Dave on May 07, 2018, 03:47:12 AM
Quote from: Arturo on May 07, 2018, 01:39:46 AM
Quote from: Dave on May 06, 2018, 09:17:36 PM
QuoteActually, there is a clear link between mass shootings and mental illness
Repeat after me: Mass shooters are not disproportionately mentally ill."

This is the opening line of a meme that's been circulating in the aftermath of the shooting in Parkland, Fla.

But this and other efforts to downplay the role of mental illness in mass shootings are simply misleading. There is a clear relationship between mental illness and mass public shootings.

At the broadest level, peer-reviewed research (https://rd.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10979-006-9018-z?no-access=true) has shown that individuals with major mental disorders (those that substantially interfere with life activities) are more likely to commit violent acts, especially if they abuse drugs. When we focus more narrowly on mass public shootings — an extreme and, fortunately, rare form of violence — we see a relatively high rate of mental illness.

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-duwe-rocque-mass-shootings-mental-illness-20180223-story.html

OK, the above includes all mass public shootings as defined in the article, not a lot about teenagers specifically. But if adolescence does cause problems in affect, mood and behaviour the possibility of a link would not be stupid. But it also hints at an attempt to dissociate mass killings from mental health problems.

Many mass killers die themseoves so there seems to be mainly anecdotal evidence about their perdonalities and demeanor/behaviour. I have not noticed any psych- reports on those mass killers taken into custody, perhaps because I have not followed individual cases in detail or because such details have not been put into the public domain.

And this highlights another point in Trump's crap about London, taking out terrorist action and gang related killings the London numbers would come down. It would take a great number of armed police to guard against those sort of actions. As many as in America, or maybe more, per square mile in all public areas. All America's armed police don't seem to make much of a dent in preventing mass shootings - because it is not possible to do so in a society where firearms are so readily, legally or otherwise, available.

Needed, a comparison, or analysis, of the mental health differences or similarities, in reason/purpose/motive, between a 15 - 25 yo running amock with a firearm in a school or an older person with personal relationship or work grievences in a public place, or even the nutter just "having fun". Then compare those with a person acting out of ideological or religious motives (though one might question the sanity of such people as well or criminal socio/psychopathic motivation.

The wife driven to homicide might well have mitigation in that her husband's actions over a period caused her temporary mental health problems. The other "justified" non-judicial/wartime killing of one person by another might be in self-defence when there is an immediate danger of lethal attack and no viable alternative defence. Like the old guy who was not charged for killing the intruder who attacked him recently.

Another thing is that these things don't happen that often. The death rate continues to drop even though there is a war going on in the middle east, and all these mass murders are suddenly being reported. They actually happened a lot but nobody knows about previous ones because they were never put on the news. Just recently they took a liking to putting one on TV every chance they get. Probably because they have to compete with the internet media sources like youtube which get drastically higher numbers than any TV station now days.

According to Wiki there have been 26 mass killings involving 10 or more deaths since 1949, 12 of those being before Facebook (2004), Youtube (2005) or Twitter (2006) started.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_shootings_in_the_United_States

If you take another Wiki  list there have been 53 mass killings (including other than by shooting) involving 5 deaths or more since 1850. This list also includes racial, extra judicial by army, ethnic and other motives.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_the_United_States

So, according to the above, about 25% of the number of mass killings since 1850 have happened since 2004 when (anti)social media started. So that is in the last 13 out of 167ish years, <8%. These have predominantly involved semi-automatic weapons. It might be interesting to find out what percentage were due to purely personal issues.

Prima facie evidence that (anti)social media may be a factor since 2004, through the wider opportunities it provides for bullying, exclusion (actual or perceived), attention seeking, copycat behaviour . . .  ? There is a case going on here involving the planning of a potential mass attack at a school where  copycat behaviour of an American killing has been said to be involved - though here it would have involved knives rather than guns.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Arturo on May 07, 2018, 05:19:43 AM
Quote from: Dave on May 07, 2018, 03:47:12 AM
Quote from: Arturo on May 07, 2018, 01:39:46 AM
Quote from: Dave on May 06, 2018, 09:17:36 PM
QuoteActually, there is a clear link between mass shootings and mental illness
Repeat after me: Mass shooters are not disproportionately mentally ill."

This is the opening line of a meme that's been circulating in the aftermath of the shooting in Parkland, Fla.

But this and other efforts to downplay the role of mental illness in mass shootings are simply misleading. There is a clear relationship between mental illness and mass public shootings.

At the broadest level, peer-reviewed research (https://rd.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10979-006-9018-z?no-access=true) has shown that individuals with major mental disorders (those that substantially interfere with life activities) are more likely to commit violent acts, especially if they abuse drugs. When we focus more narrowly on mass public shootings — an extreme and, fortunately, rare form of violence — we see a relatively high rate of mental illness.

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-duwe-rocque-mass-shootings-mental-illness-20180223-story.html

OK, the above includes all mass public shootings as defined in the article, not a lot about teenagers specifically. But if adolescence does cause problems in affect, mood and behaviour the possibility of a link would not be stupid. But it also hints at an attempt to dissociate mass killings from mental health problems.

Many mass killers die themseoves so there seems to be mainly anecdotal evidence about their perdonalities and demeanor/behaviour. I have not noticed any psych- reports on those mass killers taken into custody, perhaps because I have not followed individual cases in detail or because such details have not been put into the public domain.

And this highlights another point in Trump's crap about London, taking out terrorist action and gang related killings the London numbers would come down. It would take a great number of armed police to guard against those sort of actions. As many as in America, or maybe more, per square mile in all public areas. All America's armed police don't seem to make much of a dent in preventing mass shootings - because it is not possible to do so in a society where firearms are so readily, legally or otherwise, available.

Needed, a comparison, or analysis, of the mental health differences or similarities, in reason/purpose/motive, between a 15 - 25 yo running amock with a firearm in a school or an older person with personal relationship or work grievences in a public place, or even the nutter just "having fun". Then compare those with a person acting out of ideological or religious motives (though one might question the sanity of such people as well or criminal socio/psychopathic motivation.

The wife driven to homicide might well have mitigation in that her husband's actions over a period caused her temporary mental health problems. The other "justified" non-judicial/wartime killing of one person by another might be in self-defence when there is an immediate danger of lethal attack and no viable alternative defence. Like the old guy who was not charged for killing the intruder who attacked him recently.

Another thing is that these things don't happen that often. The death rate continues to drop even though there is a war going on in the middle east, and all these mass murders are suddenly being reported. They actually happened a lot but nobody knows about previous ones because they were never put on the news. Just recently they took a liking to putting one on TV every chance they get. Probably because they have to compete with the internet media sources like youtube which get drastically higher numbers than any TV station now days.

According to Wiki there have been 26 mass killings involving 10 or more deaths since 1949, 12 of those being before Facebook (2004), Youtube (2005) or Twitter (2006) started.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_shootings_in_the_United_States

If you take another Wiki  list there have been 53 mass killings (including other than by shooting) involving 5 deaths or more since 1850. This list also includes racial, extra judicial by army, ethnic and other motives.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_the_United_States

So, according to the above, about 25% of the number of mass killings since 1850 have happened since 2004 when (anti)social media started. So that is in the last 13 out of 167ish years, <8%. These have predominantly involved semi-automatic weapons. It might be interesting to find out what percentage were due to purely personal issues.

Prima facie evidence that (anti)social media may be a factor since 2004, through the wider opportunities it provides for bullying, exclusion (actual or perceived), attention seeking, copycat behaviour . . .  ? There is a case going on here involving the planning of a potential mass attack at a school where  copycat behaviour of an American killing has been said to be involved - though here it would have involved knives rather than guns.

It may also be more dominant now in the media due to things like social media. Information becomes more widespread much faster. Which was what was said about twitter not long ago. So it may be that the news shows have no choice but to mention them. And also due to the information being spread much faster, is that there are those who identify with the previous killer and then attempt to emulate the behavior. And then more people identify with that and it literally creates a deadly cycle. Something like the Trump effect. There aren't a lot of them, but just enough to get noticed a lot because of how loud they are. it certainly seems to be influecing these attacks in some way. And it may be law enforcement to blame ironically. As long ago I heard that they were against taking some sort of action on this stuff as they said social media "actually helps catch these criminals". This was when the facebook killer was live streaming his murders and they protested to censoring these things. So yes social media is partly to blame but so is law enforcement.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Dave on May 07, 2018, 07:17:11 AM
Arturo, those lists are historical, if you like I will do an incidence frequency plot. I think that nay show that, in recent years, there has veen a true increase in the number of incidents, that this is not a reporting phenomena.

In things like child sexual abuse there is almost certainly such a reporting phenomena - the actual incidences may be pretty conatant (maybe barring large wars). The more recent willingness to self-report such means an increase in media mention rather than in events. Similarly with the sexual abuse of women.

150 years ago it might only have been the literate with access to non-parochial printed media who heard of mass killings in far flung corners of the States. 100 years ago it might have been only those with the above access and/or a radio receiver. 50 years ago TV and well established national news broadcasts were becoming quite common. It is true that, today, the access to the media is far, far more common but at least as unreliable. The media, especially the (anti)social variety, may have an influence on susceptible individuals, and frequent mention may exacerbate that, but the incident frequency is real if those Wiki lists are accurate. The current apparent ease of access to weapons specifically designed to kill many people as efficiently as possible (even on semi-automatic) maybe increases the average killings/incident/year.

Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Arturo on May 07, 2018, 07:43:43 AM
Quote from: Dave on May 07, 2018, 07:17:11 AM
Arturo, those lists are historical, if you like I will do an incidence frequency plot. I think that nay show that, in recent years, there has veen a true increase in the number of incidents, that this is not a reporting phenomena.

I don't see why that would be necessary. I agree with what you said.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Dave on May 11, 2018, 02:04:50 PM
"It was God's will", well, that is a parsphrase to the what the, now gun carrying in church, pastor of the church in Sutherland Springs said. So that's OK then, those not killed "He" spared to go on pushing the psychodrug word.

QuotePrayer and a packing pastor: A church's response to a mass shooting

Pastor Frank Pomeroy now carries a pistol to each and every church function.

The gun isn't new; he's had it for years. But it was not until the shooting rampage nearly four months ago that killed more than two dozen at First Baptist Church including a pregnant woman — and his own daughter — that he began wearing it regularly, in a holster on his hip.

https://www.deseretnews.com/article/900011232/prayer-and-a-packing-pastor-a-churchs-response-to-a-mass-shooting.html

There is also a programme on it on BBC World Service but it is on air so too early for a link yet. It is full of self-deceiving sophistry and justification for guns (the hunting aspect if which I thought to be the only part with a smidgeon of valid justification). The prog's sign off was a member of the congregation dinging sonething about,  "God will take care of you . . ."

Yeah, dying for your god at the hands of a nutter in a gun heavy society is good, folks. Halle-fucking-lullia!
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: joeactor on May 18, 2018, 08:38:05 PM
And 10 dead in Texas. If only there was *something* we could do...
(sheesh)
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Dave on May 18, 2018, 09:03:48 PM
Quote from: joeactor on May 18, 2018, 08:38:05 PM
And 10 dead in Texas. If only there was *something* we could do...
(sheesh)

Yes, I felt real anger when I heard the Turd in Chief's words. Maybe one day your congressmen and women, of both parties, will find the moral guts to say, "Enough!", and actually mean it, actually do something about it.

Hope there are further mass public demos against guns.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on May 18, 2018, 10:21:09 PM
Here's an email I received from my Senate candidate, Beto O'Rourke, who is attempting to unseat Lyin' Ted Cruz:

Bruce,

As of this writing, at least ten killed and many more injured at a high school in Santa Fe, Texas. We're still learning more, but we know that students went to school this morning and didn't make it to the end of the day. Didn't make it to graduation, didn't make it to the rest of their lives.

My thoughts are with the community of Santa Fe. I'm thinking of the students, teachers, administrators, parents, and law enforcement. I'm deeply sorry that they are experiencing this.

I'm sorry that there are parents, brothers, and sisters who are grieving, who won't see their children and siblings at the next family dinner or baseball game. I'm sorry that there are teachers everywhere worrying about whether their classroom will be next instead of solely focusing on teaching those kids. I'm sorry that some of the students at Santa Fe weren't surprised that this happened because they expected it at some point. I'm sorry that more people have been killed at our schools this year than have been killed while serving in our military.

Either we accept this, and continue to be sorry, and prayerful and thoughtful. Or we act. That's it.

There are 535 members of Congress. Who represent 320 million people. All of us. Each member responsible for representing the interests of this country, of people, of human beings, of kids. Not responsible for PACs or lobbies, corporations or special interests. Not responsible for the next election.

Remembering that, we can meet silence with action. Tragedy with common purpose. The disagreements with compromise and consensus that allow us to do better -- not perfect, not your ideal, not my ideal, but better than what we have today. Shouldn't be too much to ask for the kids who died today, for the kids too scared to go to school on Monday, should it?

What if we required universal background checks to ensure that firearms only get into the hands of those won't harm themselves or someone else. Close all loopholes and exceptions. Every single gun purchase has a background check.

We can stop the new sale of assault weapons and high-capacity magazines to ensure that firearms designed to kill as effectively and efficiently as possible on the battlefield aren't used in our schools, our streets, our churches, and our concerts.

We can give federal help to local school districts to improve on-campus safety. Local stakeholder solutions with assistance to make the necessary investments.

We can fully support federal research on gun violence so that we can better understand and address its root causes.

We can improve record sharing from the background check system, the ability for law enforcement to more effectively act on information that could help in the prevention of gun sales to those who shouldn't own them or stop those who do and pose a threat.

We can find a way to implement Extreme Risk Protective Order (ERPO) or Red Flag Laws. Successfully implementing these can stop shootings and might have a big impact on the suicides that make up 2/3 of our daily 96 gun deaths.

These are some ideas I've heard from my constituents in El Paso, from students at the town hall I held at Montwood High earlier this year, from those I've met along the road throughout the counties of Texas.

These ideas won't prevent every shooting, won't be perfect, aren't easy conversations to have. And there's no way that I would suggest I have all the answers. No one person does.

But any hesitation I have in stepping forward is overwhelmed by the justice demanded by the daily tragedy of gun violence. Any question on how to lead has been answered by gun violence survivors, young people, high school students who are already leading us (forcing us) towards the difficult, important conversation that this country owes them, owes all of us.

I want to use our proud history of gun ownership, gun rights, gun safety, and gun responsibility in Texas as a place from which to lead. I want to sit down with any person of any party in any place and at any time to figure out how we can make sure that this does not continue to happen.

It'll look a lot like our town hall on the steps of the Cottle County courthouse in Paducah on Sunday. I was asked about my stance on gun safety by a woman in the community. She certainly didn't agree with everything I said, and we came to different conclusions about the next steps. But we were able to have the discussion with one another. And we acknowledged that both of us love Texas and want what's best for our country, our schools, our kids.

Town hall with Beto in Cottle County
The open dialogue we've been having across Texas is missing from Congress. The House of Representatives and the Senate owe this country a real discussion, debate and vote on these issues. I will continue to do my best to meet this crisis with the urgency it deserves.

All of Texas grieves today. All of Texas should join in leading the country to act tomorrow.

Sincerely,

Beto
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Tom62 on May 19, 2018, 04:52:17 AM
Quote from: joeactor on May 18, 2018, 08:38:05 PM
And 10 dead in Texas. If only there was *something* we could do...
(sheesh)

We could send thoughts and prayers,,,,,
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Dave on May 19, 2018, 05:05:43 AM
Quote from: Tom62 on May 19, 2018, 04:52:17 AM
Quote from: joeactor on May 18, 2018, 08:38:05 PM
And 10 dead in Texas. If only there was *something* we could do...
(sheesh)

We could send thoughts and prayers,,,,,

And thank "God" it was only 10.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Dave on May 19, 2018, 05:08:01 AM
Bruce, I am allways sceptical about politicians, especially wannabe ones. Let's just hope Beto can match fine wotds with fine actions.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Arturo on May 19, 2018, 05:11:26 AM
I bet you a gun would have stopped those explosives. Oh wait. I mean people. 10 people.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Tank on May 19, 2018, 08:37:11 AM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on May 18, 2018, 10:21:09 PM
Here's an email I received from my Senate candidate, Beto O'Rourke, who is attempting to unseat Lyin' Ted Cruz:

Bruce,

As of this writing, at least ten killed and many more injured at a high school in Santa Fe, Texas. We're still learning more, but we know that students went to school this morning and didn't make it to the end of the day. Didn't make it to graduation, didn't make it to the rest of their lives.

My thoughts are with the community of Santa Fe. I'm thinking of the students, teachers, administrators, parents, and law enforcement. I'm deeply sorry that they are experiencing this.

I'm sorry that there are parents, brothers, and sisters who are grieving, who won't see their children and siblings at the next family dinner or baseball game. I'm sorry that there are teachers everywhere worrying about whether their classroom will be next instead of solely focusing on teaching those kids. I'm sorry that some of the students at Santa Fe weren't surprised that this happened because they expected it at some point. I'm sorry that more people have been killed at our schools this year than have been killed while serving in our military.

Either we accept this, and continue to be sorry, and prayerful and thoughtful. Or we act. That's it.

There are 535 members of Congress. Who represent 320 million people. All of us. Each member responsible for representing the interests of this country, of people, of human beings, of kids. Not responsible for PACs or lobbies, corporations or special interests. Not responsible for the next election.

Remembering that, we can meet silence with action. Tragedy with common purpose. The disagreements with compromise and consensus that allow us to do better -- not perfect, not your ideal, not my ideal, but better than what we have today. Shouldn't be too much to ask for the kids who died today, for the kids too scared to go to school on Monday, should it?

What if we required universal background checks to ensure that firearms only get into the hands of those won't harm themselves or someone else. Close all loopholes and exceptions. Every single gun purchase has a background check.

We can stop the new sale of assault weapons and high-capacity magazines to ensure that firearms designed to kill as effectively and efficiently as possible on the battlefield aren't used in our schools, our streets, our churches, and our concerts.

We can give federal help to local school districts to improve on-campus safety. Local stakeholder solutions with assistance to make the necessary investments.

We can fully support federal research on gun violence so that we can better understand and address its root causes.

We can improve record sharing from the background check system, the ability for law enforcement to more effectively act on information that could help in the prevention of gun sales to those who shouldn't own them or stop those who do and pose a threat.

We can find a way to implement Extreme Risk Protective Order (ERPO) or Red Flag Laws. Successfully implementing these can stop shootings and might have a big impact on the suicides that make up 2/3 of our daily 96 gun deaths.

These are some ideas I've heard from my constituents in El Paso, from students at the town hall I held at Montwood High earlier this year, from those I've met along the road throughout the counties of Texas.

These ideas won't prevent every shooting, won't be perfect, aren't easy conversations to have. And there's no way that I would suggest I have all the answers. No one person does.

But any hesitation I have in stepping forward is overwhelmed by the justice demanded by the daily tragedy of gun violence. Any question on how to lead has been answered by gun violence survivors, young people, high school students who are already leading us (forcing us) towards the difficult, important conversation that this country owes them, owes all of us.

I want to use our proud history of gun ownership, gun rights, gun safety, and gun responsibility in Texas as a place from which to lead. I want to sit down with any person of any party in any place and at any time to figure out how we can make sure that this does not continue to happen.

It'll look a lot like our town hall on the steps of the Cottle County courthouse in Paducah on Sunday. I was asked about my stance on gun safety by a woman in the community. She certainly didn't agree with everything I said, and we came to different conclusions about the next steps. But we were able to have the discussion with one another. And we acknowledged that both of us love Texas and want what's best for our country, our schools, our kids.

Town hall with Beto in Cottle County
The open dialogue we've been having across Texas is missing from Congress. The House of Representatives and the Senate owe this country a real discussion, debate and vote on these issues. I will continue to do my best to meet this crisis with the urgency it deserves.

All of Texas grieves today. All of Texas should join in leading the country to act tomorrow.

Sincerely,

Beto

Steps in the right direction.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on May 19, 2018, 04:04:50 PM
Quote from: Dave on May 19, 2018, 05:08:01 AM
Bruce, I am allways sceptical about politicians, especially wannabe ones. Let's just hope Beto can match fine wotds with fine actions.

He seems to be a different brand.  I've met him and he is the first pol I've actively supported in a long time.  He has a tough row to hoe in getting elected in Texas, but if anyone can, it's him.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Dave on May 19, 2018, 04:20:43 PM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on May 19, 2018, 04:04:50 PM
Quote from: Dave on May 19, 2018, 05:08:01 AM
Bruce, I am allways sceptical about politicians, especially wannabe ones. Let's just hope Beto can match fine wotds with fine actions.

He seems to be a different brand.  I've met him and he is the first pol I've actively supported in a long time.  He has a tough row to hoe in getting elected in Texas, but if anyone can, it's him.

On the guns front I was wondering if Cruz was feeling in a cleft stick - if he supports the status quo he will be against those who feel strongly about the Sante Fé shooting. Did a look around, seems that he was already walking a tightrope before that last killings.


March 5th

Quote
WASHINGTON — Sen. Ted Cruz is in a pinch on gun control.

Cruz has been aligned throughout his career with the most ardently anti-regulation gun owners in the country, and they oppose a bill sponsored by Cruz's fellow Texas Republican, Sen. John Cornyn. Cornyn's legislation, co-sponsored by Sen. Chris Murphy, D-Conn., would force greater participation in the National Instant Criminal Background Checks System (NICS) to ensure that all information is up-to-date.

If Cruz, who is up for re-election this year, sides with the hard-liners this time, he'll be at odds with both his Democratic challenger, Rep. Beto O'Rourke, and the National Rifle Association, which has endorsed the Cornyn bill. O'Rourke has raised nearly $8.7 million for the race, giving some Democrats hope they can flip a state that hasn't elected one of them to the Senate since 1988
.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congress/cruz-caught-election-year-bind-gun-control-n852016
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Dave on May 19, 2018, 09:55:52 PM
The is a lady who is a co-leader of the Brady Campaign on the BBC who has said that the larger part of the guns used in school shootings belonged to the shooters parents or some acquaintance.

I do not think it would be unfair for such people to be charged as acting with something like criminal reckless carelessness in not adequately securing their weapons in the home. Maybe a huge fine and a life ban on owning guns for starters.

Lax gun security in tbe home, almost an attitude were the gun becomes just another "tool" you take out every day, like a clasp knife or mobile phone, so common place must be a danger. This applies to pistols mainly I suppose, unless everyday carrying of assault rifles is common in some states?
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Dave on May 20, 2018, 12:39:52 AM
Just heard that the Santa Fé killer used a pistol and a shotgun - sort of fits in with my thoughts about a lax attitude to the security of desdly "tools".

OK, no parent wants to admit that there kid might become a killer and take domestic sevurity measures against the possibillity. Bet every parent conncerned is gutted, but will every other gun owning parent take adequate measures unless they face severe punishment? Even then there will be idiots.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Arturo on May 20, 2018, 05:16:48 AM
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Icarus on May 23, 2018, 12:59:07 AM
^ A stimulating video Arturo.  I fear that there are elements of truth in what the speaker is saying. 

One of our lesser utilized networks is PBS who does not have commercials in the usual way.  Too bad that PBS is not subscribed by the masses.  There are those of us who do but we are in the minority.

In addition there is NPR (National Public Radio) that often has some brilliant content. NPR does not have commercials either.  Once again it is not subscribed by the masses but it is used by the more educated who are also the minority audience.

Neither of these communicators are particularly political in nature.  They are often accused of being too liberal but they do present both sides of an argument rather well.

Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Dave on May 23, 2018, 01:24:19 AM
Quote from: Icarus on May 23, 2018, 12:59:07 AM
^ A stimulating video Arturo.  I fear that there are elements of truth in what the speaker is saying. 

One of our lesser utilized networks is PBS who does not have commercials in the usual way.  Too bad that PBS is not subscribed by the masses.  There are those of us who do but we are in the minority.

In addition there is NPR (National Public Radio) that often has some brilliant content. NPR does not have commercials either.  Once again it is not subscribed by the masses but it is used by the more educated who are also the minority audience.

Neither of these communicators are particularly political in nature.  They are often accused of being too liberal but they do present both sides of an argument rather well.

Got some PBS videos - good stuff. Not surprised to hear that it has low suscription though, actually requires some intelligence! No naked sexy stuff, no violence, no raucous humour - nothing for the unwashed masses.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Arturo on May 23, 2018, 06:09:04 PM
Quote from: Dave on May 23, 2018, 01:24:19 AM
Quote from: Icarus on May 23, 2018, 12:59:07 AM
^ A stimulating video Arturo.  I fear that there are elements of truth in what the speaker is saying. 

One of our lesser utilized networks is PBS who does not have commercials in the usual way.  Too bad that PBS is not subscribed by the masses.  There are those of us who do but we are in the minority.

In addition there is NPR (National Public Radio) that often has some brilliant content. NPR does not have commercials either.  Once again it is not subscribed by the masses but it is used by the more educated who are also the minority audience.

Neither of these communicators are particularly political in nature.  They are often accused of being too liberal but they do present both sides of an argument rather well.

Got some PBS videos - good stuff. Not surprised to hear that it has low suscription though, actually requires some intelligence! No naked sexy stuff, no violence, no raucous humour - nothing for the unwashed masses.

I don't have the link anymore because I moved last year and the link was in my old browser at my Dad's house but when Obama increased the money for social services, most of that money went into funding things like PBS and NPR. And the way they do things is that the donators pick what gets put on there shows. So when the economy was collapsing (in the Bush era) most people who were donating did not have the money to do so anymore. So the government stepped in and did so.

And now Trump has been elected and he decreased the money for disabled and elderly. NOT for PBS and NPR. Or at least that wasn't mentioned. And he got away with that quietly because of all the racket and whining about the "Social Services has sooo much money being spent on it". Not the fact that most of that money was going to NPR and PBS. Which it still probably is, but the Trump administration is in charge of that now.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Icarus on October 28, 2018, 01:09:12 AM
An encore shooting today at a Jewish Temple in Pittsburgh Pa. Eight dead several wounded including four police. The shooter is in custody. 
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Tom62 on October 28, 2018, 07:40:30 AM
Quote from: Icarus on October 28, 2018, 01:09:12 AM
An encore shooting today at a Jewish Temple in Pittsburgh Pa. Eight dead several wounded including four police. The shooter is in custody.

Last thing that I heard was that 11 people died.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: xSilverPhinx on October 28, 2018, 11:43:32 AM
Quote from: Icarus on October 28, 2018, 01:09:12 AM
An encore shooting today at a Jewish Temple in Pittsburgh Pa. Eight dead several wounded including four police. The shooter is in custody.

I heard about this is the news.  :( Is the shooter's motivation known?
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Essie Mae on October 29, 2018, 12:39:14 AM
I heard he shouted something like, 'All Jews must die', but I don't know to which murderous ideology he subscribes.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: xSilverPhinx on October 29, 2018, 01:30:47 AM
Quote from: Essie Mae on October 29, 2018, 12:39:14 AM
I heard he shouted something like, 'All Jews must die', but I don't know to which murderous ideology he subscribes.

Absolutely disgusting.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Icarus on October 29, 2018, 04:19:31 AM
The fatality count has increased to eleven and there are some others in hospital. SOme on the critical list.  The subdivision where the synagogue is located  has a large Jewish presence.  The area is called Squirrel Hill and not because the Jews are being called squirrels. The area had that name long before the demographic developed.

The shooter is in custody and he is apparently a crackpot who dislikes hates anyone that is Jewish.  Who knows what motivates someone to take such insanely barbaric action.?  Maybe it is because he is convinced that the Jews are the ones who killed Jesus. 

Nothing has been revealed about whether he is a practicing Pentecostal or member of some other far out group.

Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Recusant on October 29, 2018, 11:29:46 PM
You think you can't be surprised any more by the relentless counter-factual propaganda coming from the Trump administration. Don't underestimate them!

"Kellyanne Conway blamed synagogue shootings on 'anti-religiosity'" | Vox (https://www.vox.com/2018/10/29/18037992/kellyanne-conway-anti-religiosity-tree-of-life-synagogue-shooting)

QuoteWhite House counselor Kellyanne Conway blamed Saturday's Tree of Life synagogue shooting in which 11 were killed on "the anti-religiosity in this country."

Speaking to Fox & Friends on Monday morning, Conway defended Trump against accusations that his nationalist rhetoric — including his continued stoking of anti-Semitic conspiracy theories against Jewish philanthropist billionaire George Soros — contributed to the radicalization of alleged shooter Robert Bowers.

Trump "denounced anti-Semitism," Conway told the show's hosts, before pivoting the discussion to the state of religion in America.

"The anti-religiosity in this country that is somehow in vogue ... making fun of people who express religion, the late-night comedians, the unfunny people who go on TV. ... It's always anti-religious," she said, before invoking the 2015 fatal shooting of nine black parishioners in a Charleston, South Carolina, church by a white supremacist, Dylann Roof. "These people were gunned down in their place of worship," she said of both the Charleston victims and those of Saturday's shooting, before concluding that the shootings were a sign that "this is no time to be driving God out of the public square."

[Continues . . . (https://www.vox.com/2018/10/29/18037992/kellyanne-conway-anti-religiosity-tree-of-life-synagogue-shooting)]

"It's dirty anti-theism, that's what it is!" :picard facepalm: :eyeroll:
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Tank on November 08, 2018, 11:08:46 AM
Thousand Oaks: 'Multiple fatalities' at California bar shooting (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-46135459?fbclid=IwAR188spTHoGnvJnjHN5BBZH_DpkMLx6jnsOQ7hnoF1LUiJt4fITe9Txk9Ho)
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: No one on November 08, 2018, 02:23:56 PM
Just in case anyone had any doubt, humans still suck!
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Essie Mae on November 08, 2018, 08:30:40 PM
They'll never give up the right of citizens to bear arms, but why must they allow members of the public to carry semi-automatic weapons? A hand gun is bad enough but marginally better than such horrible weapons. At least you have to stop and load it every six shots.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Tank on November 08, 2018, 08:48:27 PM
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Essie Mae on November 08, 2018, 10:07:38 PM
Pardon my ignorance 🤭
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Icarus on November 09, 2018, 02:13:40 AM
That is not an unusual presumption by non gun nuts  Essie Mae.  The reality is that certain handguns categorized as automatics can hold magazines of 12, 15, 20 rounds of ammunition.   Magazine is a box like bullet container that usually plugs into the bottom of the pistol handle.   A revolver is what you were thinking of.  Some of the cylinders of revolvers hold as many as nine rounds.  Like the 22 caliber revolver handgun that I have had for many years.....and neer fired as much as a single shot.

Friend wife is a member of a police auxiliary group. On a visit to the local police shooting range  she used the 22 to post a very tight grouping of about  8 inches on a 25 yard target.  I think that I had better be nice to her.

The weapon of choice for maniacs is still something similar to the AR-15 rifle. A lunatic can get off near a hundred rounds a minute when properly practiced and prepared.

Let us hope that the vast majority of  deranged shooters are impecunious.   I recently visited a large gun shop, in my medium sized city, where I observed that ammunition for an AR 15 or similar firearm is priced at $599 per thousand rounds..........

Disclaimer:  I am not a gun guy. That was merely a lark visit to see what is happening in that particular gun enthusiast demographic.  The place was a very well appointed, even sophisticated in its own way that was, for me, almost scary.  Their inventory must surely have exceeded a million dollars. and more.  There must be a large market out there.  The market size is the scary part.

As an engineer and also a master machinist, I could appreciate the exceptional quality of some of the lethal hardware that I saw..................But why do we need or want  such sophisticated and beautifully crafted  instruments of death????????

Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Tank on November 09, 2018, 02:22:02 PM
Quote from: Essie Mae on November 08, 2018, 10:07:38 PM
Pardon my ignorance 🤭

Not at all.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: xSilverPhinx on November 09, 2018, 05:28:28 PM
Quote from: Tank on November 08, 2018, 11:08:46 AM
Thousand Oaks: 'Multiple fatalities' at California bar shooting (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-46135459?fbclid=IwAR188spTHoGnvJnjHN5BBZH_DpkMLx6jnsOQ7hnoF1LUiJt4fITe9Txk9Ho)

So sad for the victims and the shooter. Hopefully, along with revised gun laws people start to focus more on mental health issues and helping those afflicted. 
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Tom62 on November 09, 2018, 06:39:28 PM
I assume that, after this mass shooting, nothing is going to happen either?
Just the usual "Thoughts and Prayers".
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Sandra Craft on November 09, 2018, 08:06:23 PM
Quote from: Tom62 on November 09, 2018, 06:39:28 PM
I assume that, after this mass shooting, nothing is going to happen either?
Just the usual "Thoughts and Prayers".

Of course not.  NRA lobby still too powerful, and gun nuts who (unlike progressive types) never miss a vote, still favor unlimited access to guns over human life.  The only thing that's at all changed is that I've heard no requests for "thoughts and prayers" this time around -- I think that flaccid platitude may have finally been mocked out of existence and good riddance.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Recusant on November 12, 2018, 06:16:13 AM
Quote from: Sandra Craft on November 09, 2018, 08:06:23 PM. . . I think that flaccid platitude may have finally been mocked out of existence and good riddance.

Not so fast. From the US's newest NRA-sponsored US senator:

"Marsha Blackburn's Gut Reaction to Thousand Oaks Shooting: 'Protect the 2nd Amendment'" | Daily Beast (https://www.thedailybeast.com/marsha-blackburns-gut-reaction-to-thousand-oaks-shooting-protect-the-2nd-amendment)

QuoteSenator-elect Marsha Blackburn (R-TN) made her priorities abundantly clear on Thursday morning when a Fox News anchor asked her for a reaction to the deadly mass shooting at bar in Thousand Oaks, California.

Asked by anchor Sandra Smith what America as a country can do to stop incidents like this one, the first thing Blackburn said was: "What we do is say, how do we make certain that we protect the Second Amendment and protect our citizens."

The Tennessee Republican went on to say that "mental-health issues need to be addressed" before bringing up the issue of gun access specifically.

The gunman, a former Marine, killed 11 people plus a sheriff's deputy at the 18-and-older country music bar night before reportedly turning his gun on himself.

"No one wants an individual who is a danger to themselves or others to have a firearm," Blackburn added. "And what you do want is to make sure they are receiving the help—I mean, this is just absolutely heartbreaking." From there, Blackburn offered her "thoughts and prayers" to the parents and victims.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: xSilverPhinx on March 20, 2019, 10:38:01 PM
A few days ago there was a school shooting in Suzano, Brazil, which left 8 dead, among them students and school staff. It's not a big number compared to shootings that happen in the US, but the news shocked the nation because this kind of thing practically never happens here.

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/03/13/americas/brazil-school-shooting/index.html (https://edition.cnn.com/2019/03/13/americas/brazil-school-shooting/index.html)

Fast forward to today and there are rumors circulating on campus that an incel's threats to shoot up the school were intercepted online. The Dean's office issued an alert and confirmed that they were not just rumors...there had in fact been threats to kill students, especially "women from the exact science courses". 

Here's a screenshot of the guy's posts in a hate forum:

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi68.tinypic.com%2Ffe1n53.jpg&hash=3196039ae596c87dd1d593783d6bd3bd2c7d18f2)

It says:

"Heh, it's already been done in a kindergarten, nursery, high school. I want to be the first to do a massacre at a university. Those who live will see, and those who die are scum."

There are other printscreens of his posts in the forum where he rambles on about hating women and promises to do something by the end of the month.

Other forum incels suggest he shoot up the university I go to, because though there are armed guards on all the campi they won't do anything to stop him.

:picard facepalm:


Such a sick mind...

   
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Icarus on March 22, 2019, 12:04:31 AM
The nutcase dude would not be the first to shoot up a university.  We had such an occasion at Ohio State university a few years back. I do hope that it is legal in Brazil to imprison kooks like that, just in case he is serious. 
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: xSilverPhinx on March 24, 2019, 04:23:27 PM
Quote from: Icarus on March 22, 2019, 12:04:31 AM
The nutcase dude would not be the first to shoot up a university.  We had such an occasion at Ohio State university a few years back. I do hope that it is legal in Brazil to imprison kooks like that, just in case he is serious.

Nobody has shot up a university in Brazil before, and it seems that creep is looking to be (in)famous. He rambles on about making the local headlines in other screenshots.

I don't know what measures are being taken. He'll most likely get expelled but then what? That would fuel the hate he obviously harbors and if he wasn't actually being serious before, he might be later. Time will tell I guess.

Last Friday the campus seemed empty as if a significant portion of students decided not to show up. The door to the department where the lab I work in is located was locked. I saw a few police cars patrolling the campus, something I've never seen in the last 6 years I was there. This whole thing might morph into hysteria.   
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: jumbojak on June 01, 2019, 05:24:41 AM
We had another big one today. This was in Virginia Beach, not too far away from where I am living. There aren't many details yet. I think the count is at sixteen dead so far.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Anne D. on June 02, 2019, 08:20:09 AM
Aaaand it's USA for the sad win again. When will we ever learn.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Tank on August 03, 2019, 09:29:25 PM
El Paso shooting: 'Multiple fatalities' in Texas mall attack (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-49221936)

22 in hospital. Fatalities unknown at this time. They have the shooter. No idea of motivation.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Sandra Craft on August 04, 2019, 01:28:15 AM
Quote from: Tank on August 03, 2019, 09:29:25 PM
El Paso shooting: 'Multiple fatalities' in Texas mall attack (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-49221936)

22 in hospital. Fatalities unknown at this time. They have the shooter. No idea of motivation.

If this is the one I think it is, he was an ardent Trump supporter who posted on FB about despising "racial mixing".  And the one at the Gilroy Garlic Festival was a Trump supporter who spent time on alt-right websites and despised Hispanics and "chads".

Yet it's Antifa and the far-left the Senate is considering a bill to declare and prosecute as terrorists.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Dark Lightning on August 04, 2019, 02:19:18 AM
The vast majority of these killings in the US are by far-right-leaning lunatics. I have guns but all I ever use them for is killing paper. I wouldn't actually want to use a gun in the house for self defense, since there is so much danger from the noise (to hearing) and the possibility of injuring another family member with the shot if it didn't neutralize (kill or maim) the intruder.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Magdalena on August 04, 2019, 07:46:50 AM
Quote from: Sandra Craft on August 04, 2019, 01:28:15 AM
Quote from: Tank on August 03, 2019, 09:29:25 PM
El Paso shooting: 'Multiple fatalities' in Texas mall attack (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-49221936)

22 in hospital. Fatalities unknown at this time. They have the shooter. No idea of motivation.

If this is the one I think it is, he was an ardent Trump supporter who posted on FB about despising "racial mixing". 
...
Quote from: Dark Lightning on August 04, 2019, 02:19:18 AM
The vast majority of these killings in the US are by far-right-leaning lunatics.
...


(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/BraveSnarlingChanticleer-size_restricted.gif)
Is anyone surprised that the shooter is a Trump supporter?
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: joeactor on August 04, 2019, 02:06:37 PM
... and another one in Dayton, Ohio.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Icarus on August 04, 2019, 11:50:56 PM
Three senseless shootings in a row in the last two weeks.  One in Gilroy California, then El Paso Texas, and now in Dayton Ohio.

There are 36.000 people killed by guns each year here in the good ole USA.  Another hundred thousand are injured by guns.  To be fair, some of the fatalities are from suicides.  Guns make short work of offing oneself.

There are, by the best estimates, 393 million civilian owned guns in this country. That is the highest rate of gun ownership in the world, by far.

The House of Representatives has created an appropriations bill of 50 million to be used for studies by the CDC (center for disease control) and the NIH ( National institute of health).  This is the first time in decades when this kind of support has been given.  The appropriation has not been made a reality because it is stalled at the Senate floor.  The whole idea is to engage into research as to why, and for what cause,  some of we Americans persuade ourselves to become rampantly murderous. 

The appropriation in no way infringes on the second amendment right to firearm ownership.  It does however, promote the other inalienable rights set out in our Declaration Of Independence, for Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.   

Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Bluenose on August 05, 2019, 02:55:38 AM
A very interesting article from the NYT states "tThe only variable that can explain the high rate of mass shootings in America is its astronomical number of guns."  This seems obvious to those of us who live outside that beleaguered country. It would seem not so obvious to many US residents.  Here is the article for those prepared to read and learn:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/07/world/americas/mass-shootings-us-international.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/07/world/americas/mass-shootings-us-international.html)
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Tom62 on August 05, 2019, 12:01:16 PM
Here is another interesting article about Mass Shooters https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2019-08-04/el-paso-dayton-gilroy-mass-shooters-data (https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2019-08-04/el-paso-dayton-gilroy-mass-shooters-data)
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Davin on August 05, 2019, 03:49:28 PM
Someone puts a handgun on a drone and shows that it can fire, congress bans that the next day.

But somehow we can't do anything about all these mass shootings.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on August 05, 2019, 04:24:16 PM
El Paso is one of the safest border towns around.  Nothing like this happens due to El Paso or Juarez residents.  The danger came from a white nationalist in another city, one who was given license to spew hatred by our illustrious President.  He is the danger, not the border.  He is the national security threat.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Recusant on September 01, 2019, 08:07:18 PM
Finally, somebody willing to tell the truth about this.

"Tony Perkins: Mass Shootings Happen Because Kids Learn About Evolution And 'Primordial Slime'" | Crooks and Liars (https://crooksandliars.com/2019/09/tony-perkins-mass-shootings-happen-because)

QuoteTony Perkins, head of the conservative Family Research Council, on Sunday said that liberals were to blame for mass shootings because they have allegedly taken God out of the public square.

Perkins appeared on Fox & Friends where he was identified as a "former police officer."

According to Perkins, the shooting near Odessa, Texas that left five dead was "just tragic."

"At some point, we have to realize that we as a nation have a problem," he continued. "And the problem is not the absence of laws, it's an absence of morality."

[. . .]

Perkins said that teaching children about evolution is one cause of mass shootings.

"We've taught our kids they come about through chance through primordial slime and then we're surprised they treat their fellow Americans like dirt!" he exclaimed. "It's time we talk about the result of the left's systematic march through our institutions, driving religious expression from the public square."

Perkins complained that children are not being taught that they are "created in the image of God."

"We've driving religion from our public life and we're shocked that we no longer have morality and we no longer value human life," he remarked.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Tank on September 01, 2019, 09:22:24 PM
America is dead meat.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Icarus on September 02, 2019, 12:59:22 AM
Perkins is clearly a deranged individual. 

Hillary was ill advised to use the word: deplorable.   She was also in touch with reality even though it was not a clever political pronouncement. 

Is shit for brains now the  defacto position?

 
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Recusant on September 04, 2019, 08:59:26 AM
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Icarus on October 03, 2019, 12:39:49 AM
^  Clever vid. That puts T&P in the order of ;don't make a rats ass.  I am not unalterably opposed to using the phrase if it brings any comfort to the bereaved.   
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Icarus on August 11, 2020, 02:30:54 AM
Monday evening I am watching the Trumpster lie his ass off in a white house interview with various reporters.  He is right in the middle of one of his boastful bullshit sessions when the secret service grabbed him in mid sentence, and hauled him to presumed safety.

A few minutes later he returned. Problem solved. It seems that someone near the White House had caused a problem that prompted the secret service guys to shoot the suspected person.  We have not learned the details of the shooting at this time. I will tentatively credit the SS people with appropriate response. 

Meanwhile a large group of bad guys have dramatically smashed and looted businesses in Chicago.  The Chicago mayor is supremely pissed and we can probably look forward to some hard ass behavior by the CPD. Will this madness never end?
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Tank on August 11, 2020, 07:50:15 AM
Quote from: Icarus on August 11, 2020, 02:30:54 AM
Monday evening I am watching the Trumpster lie his ass off in a white house interview with various reporters.  He is right in the middle of one of his boastful bullshit sessions when the secret service grabbed him in mid sentence, and hauled him to presumed safety.

A few minutes later he returned. Problem solved. It seems that someone near the White House had caused a problem that prompted the secret service guys to shoot the suspected person.  We have not learned the details of the shooting at this time. I will tentatively credit the SS people with appropriate response. 

Meanwhile a large group of bad guys have dramatically smashed and looted businesses in Chicago.  The Chicago mayor is supremely pissed and we can probably look forward to some hard ass behavior by the CPD. Will this madness never end?

No. We are fucked.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Randy on September 20, 2020, 12:10:42 AM
An individual wouldn't think of doing anything like this. A mob of people - well that's a different story. Maybe Silver knows something about the mindset of heard mentality.  :shrug:
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Icarus on March 23, 2021, 04:41:35 AM
Another shooting in Boulder Colorado today.   Early reports have ten people dead.  I hope that is not so. Will the madness ever cease?

TV today showed a gathering of black people at a gun range.  They were all dressed in black and were practicing with rifles and hand guns. They appeared to be well organized and disciplined.  I presume that this is a reaction from the Atlanta shooting of the Asian women. I suspect that the black people are being prepared to fight back against white supremacists. There are a frightening number of people who believe themselves to be superior and more privileged because they have whiter skin.  I have mixed emotions about this but I can try to empathize with them. 
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Tom62 on March 23, 2021, 04:48:00 AM
Quote from: Icarus on March 23, 2021, 04:41:35 AM
Another shooting in Boulder Colorado today.   Early reports have ten people dead.  I hope that is not so. Will the madness ever cease?

Yes, but it would mean to take drastic measures to remove most of the guns from the American population. But even then you'll have crazy people who'll find a way to kill innocent people
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Icarus on March 23, 2021, 05:01:14 AM
Tom my nation is over run with guns and gun enthusiasts. I agree that the obvious solution is for the people to have fewer guns.  Sad to say,that will happen in the US when hell freezes over.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: billy rubin on March 23, 2021, 06:14:58 PM
i don't have a solution. people's attitudes towards guns here in america are crazy. it's all tied up with BS politics and macho culture, layered over a long history of private, peaceful, and unregulated ownership.

there's so much BS on both sides of the argument. like the AR15-style weap5ons. people complain because it looks like a military rifle, but its also one of the most popular hunting rifles in the country. people use the large magazines to slaughter wild pigs in texas, where they roam in herds and destroy the neighborhood. and they also use them to kill 50 people at a time.

my family used to hunt deer with military rifles, old mauser 98s, one sporterized, one still with a full stock. they were bolt action guns designed to kill people rapidly with contemporary state-of the-art technology. nothing like an M16, but deadly for the time. would they still be legal under military weapon restrictions? probably, but maybe not.

given the craziness we have here with owning and carrying firearms, i still think the correct solution in my own case is to join them. i'm trained and licensed to carry a weapon, have no axes to grind, and have carefully thought out my options under all the scenarios i can imagine. i'm not a danger to anybody else when i'm armed, unless i am attacked in specifically dangerous ways. if i had been in that colorado grocery store, i might be dead today. or maybe i'd be alive and the shooter would be dead instead.

there's no good choices.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Randy on April 15, 2021, 09:34:59 PM
What I have never understood is why have mass shootings on people the perpetrator doesn't even know? What's the point? Did the wife spoil the dessert and he got angry at the world? It's just... I don't. It's almost like you never know who might be living next door and be trigger happy,
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Recusant on April 16, 2021, 08:04:33 AM
Indianapolis (https://www.cbsnews.com/live-updates/fedex-mass-shooting-indianapolis/). The season is getting into a robustly macabre swing of things. Then again the season is all year long, in God's Country.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Recusant on April 17, 2021, 07:04:34 AM
The discussion of the use of deadly force by police (and the racist aspects of that in the United States) has been split off to a new thread (https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=16896.0). Thank you for your patience.  :maskwink:
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: billy rubin on April 17, 2021, 03:18:35 PM
Quote from: Randy on April 15, 2021, 09:34:59 PM
What I have never understood is why have mass shootings on people the perpetrator doesn't even know? What's the point? Did the wife spoil the dessert and he got angry at the world? It's just... I don't. It's almost like you never know who might be living next door and be trigger happy,

in malaya and the philippines theyre called amoks.

some sort of life stress causes them to reject sociality, and then they go around killing people until tbey are (usually) killed themselves.

in asia its usually a bloody suicide. but some people are subdued and their running amok sometimes isnt held agaibst them.

i remember amoks from when i was a kid, but i havent heard much about tbem in asia for some time.

lots of them in america
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on April 19, 2021, 04:43:02 PM
With the added pressure of Covid and some still feeling economic pressure, the availability of guns here and the general lack of civility that reached a high point since Trump, we are going to see a lot more violent death.  Summer could be a nightmare.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: billy rubin on April 19, 2021, 06:18:16 PM
yes. i'm not liking my culture much.

i've wandered around the world in political hotspots for years and never felt like i needed to carry a weapon.

now here in my own country i don't leave the house without a stinking gun in my pocket. go figure.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Icarus on April 20, 2021, 12:00:15 AM
Another "go figure" is the news that Texas legislators are moving to make it permissible for any citizen to open carry. No license or training required.  Given the current climate of  shootings, including the one in Austin (capitol of the state of Texas), WTF are these legislators thinking?  Are they thinking the deal about " a good guy with a gun versus a bad guy with a gun" thing?  That only works if the good guy kills the bad guy before the bad guy reveals the details of his deranged mission. In which case the good guy is  the murderer and is subject to prosecution..............except in Texas?????

Somehow I cannot envision Ecurb with a 44 magnum revolver in his holster while at the Dairy queen.

 



Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: billy rubin on April 20, 2021, 02:08:24 AM
arizona is open carry by anybody.

i worked a cash register in a circle K convenience store in mesa, arizona when i was in school. people walked in with guns all the time, every day. little pistols, 45s, single action revolvers, of all things. you didn't pay any attention to it because you assumed that everybody you saw was armed, whether you saw a gun or not.

just part of that culture. my wife worked alone in the mountains on her masters thesis, and she wore a .357 all day long, even under her chest waders out in the cienegas.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Tank on April 20, 2021, 05:17:28 PM
Quote from: billy rubin on April 20, 2021, 02:08:24 AM
arizona is open carry by anybody.

i worked a cash register in a circle K convenience store in mesa, arizona when i was in school. people walked in with guns all the time, every day. little pistols, 45s, single action revolvers, of all things. you didn't pay any attention to it because you assumed that everybody you saw was armed, whether you saw a gun or not.

just part of that culture. my wife worked alone in the mountains on her masters thesis, and she wore a .357 all day long, even under her chest waders out in the cienegas.

Astonishing.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: billy rubin on April 20, 2021, 07:47:08 PM
i hate to admit it, but this motion picture captured a great deal of arizona culture with great accuracy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OY3b5VmtET0

and holly hunter is one of my lifetime motivating actresses. a very versatile artist, here and elsewhere.

people in arizona take personal firearms for granted. it's not particularly more dangerous, its just that everybody has them, all the time. everywhere.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: billy rubin on April 20, 2021, 07:55:29 PM
im sorry for the digression, but hunter was magnificent in this motion picture

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TljLPFa_vNU
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on April 20, 2021, 08:22:28 PM
Quote from: Icarus on April 20, 2021, 12:00:15 AM
Another "go figure" is the news that Texas legislators are moving to make it permissible for any citizen to open carry. No license or training required.  Given the current climate of  shootings, including the one in Austin (capitol of the state of Texas), WTF are these legislators thinking?  Are they thinking the deal about " a good guy with a gun versus a bad guy with a gun" thing?  That only works if the good guy kills the bad guy before the bad guy reveals the details of his deranged mission. In which case the good guy is  the murderer and is subject to prosecution..............except in Texas?????

Somehow I cannot envision Ecurb with a 44 magnum revolver in his holster while at the Dairy queen.



I only carry my 44 mag at high quality restaurants.  If I'm just stopping for a cone I rely on my Bowie knife.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: jumbojak on April 21, 2021, 01:33:10 AM
Quote from: Tank on April 20, 2021, 05:17:28 PM
Quote from: billy rubin on April 20, 2021, 02:08:24 AM
arizona is open carry by anybody.

i worked a cash register in a circle K convenience store in mesa, arizona when i was in school. people walked in with guns all the time, every day. little pistols, 45s, single action revolvers, of all things. you didn't pay any attention to it because you assumed that everybody you saw was armed, whether you saw a gun or not.

just part of that culture. my wife worked alone in the mountains on her masters thesis, and she wore a .357 all day long, even under her chest waders out in the cienegas.

Astonishing.

Virginia is an open carry state in most locations. The state recently allowed localities to place restrictions, but only highly urban areas are doing so. It really isn't an issue though.

Our CCW permit is also reciprocated by, I think, 37 states. That could change any day now, so I'll be getting a Utah nonresident permit. The training is done, fingerprints are in the works, and then there is a lengthy and thorough background check. But, Utah is unlikely to revoke reciprocity, so I won't have to be concerned about crossing state lines so long as I don't travel North.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Icarus on May 27, 2021, 06:25:58 AM
Another one today in San Jose. Nine dead, others injured.  (sigh!)
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Tank on May 27, 2021, 07:07:35 AM
These are so common they don't make the news in the UK any more.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Papasito Bruno on February 06, 2022, 04:10:19 PM
Sometimes I think the titled of this thread should be changed to "Another Mass Shooting in the US", but then I realize how superfluous that is....anyway, here in the US they are banning books, like "1984", "The Handmaid's Tale", "Maus", "To Kill a Mockingbird", just to name a few.

Oddly they aren't banning "Men Kampf". Not that they should ban it, but at first I found it odd that they weren't, but than I realized how much the white, Christian people in this country who loves guns, god and the Bible also love Nazis and Trump.

So they are banning books because they say they want to keep the children safe...they won't ban guns, I mean guns don't kill people, but books do!

(https://i.imgur.com/to9rZAx.jpg)



Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Icarus on February 07, 2022, 06:56:10 AM
^  :this:
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Tom62 on February 09, 2022, 08:58:52 PM
Didn't they also ban Dr. Seuss in the US? That was the weirdest thing that I ever heard. BTW, ,,Mein Kampf" is banned over here. I just wish that they did the same with ,,Das Kapital", another book that caused millions of deaths.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: jumbojak on February 09, 2022, 09:38:19 PM
Quote from: Tom62 on February 09, 2022, 08:58:52 PM
Didn't they also ban Dr. Seuss in the US? That was the weirdest thing that I ever heard. BTW, ,,Mein Kampf" is banned over here. I just wish that they did the same with ,,Das Kapital", another book that caused millions of deaths.

You can't really ban books in the US, at least not de jure. There is some leeway in public libraries, especially in schools, but none of those books are banned. Certain Dr. Seuss titles are nearly impossible to obtain now, having been discontinued by the publisher and delisted by major retailers, but none of them are banned in the sense of Mein Kampf in Germany.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Tom62 on February 10, 2022, 06:59:57 AM
Quote from: jumbojak on February 09, 2022, 09:38:19 PM
Quote from: Tom62 on February 09, 2022, 08:58:52 PM
Didn't they also ban Dr. Seuss in the US? That was the weirdest thing that I ever heard. BTW, ,,Mein Kampf" is banned over here. I just wish that they did the same with ,,Das Kapital", another book that caused millions of deaths.

You can't really ban books in the US, at least not de jure. There is some leeway in public libraries, especially in schools, but none of those books are banned. Certain Dr. Seuss titles are nearly impossible to obtain now, having been discontinued by the publisher and delisted by major retailers, but none of them are banned in the sense of Mein Kampf in Germany.

I think that there is just a tiny distinction between banning books or making them unavailable to the public. The effect would be the same. BTW, even though Mein Kampf is forbidden here, it is quite easy to download an English language copy of it from the internet.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Papasito Bruno on February 10, 2022, 01:29:50 PM
Books are being banned from School libraries, and teachers are being prohibited from teaching about certain books in their classes, there are even efforts to press charges against school librarians....of course the books in mention are still available at Public Libraries, Book-Stores, or Online.
At a couple schools I've read the students have actually formed after-hour book clubs where they actually are reading and discussing the books which are being banned at their schools.

Banning or prohibiting books at our schools is a dangerous precedent, and of course there are also public schools were they are trying to teach religion or allow the bible to be studied.

QuoteIn Wyoming, a county prosecutor's office considered charges against library employees for stocking books like "Sex Is a Funny Word" and "This Book Is Gay."

In Oklahoma, a bill was introduced in the State Senate that would prohibit public school libraries from keeping books on hand that focus on sexual activity, sexual identity or gender identity.

In Tennessee, the McMinn County Board of Education voted to remove the Pulitzer Prize-winning graphic novel "Maus" from an eighth-grade module on the Holocaust because of nudity and curse words.

The above excerpt is from an article which ran in the New York times. Published Jan. 30, 2022
Updated Feb. 8, 2022
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/30/books/book-ban-us-schools.html

Books = Bad
Guns = Good
America = Fucked
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: billy rubin on February 10, 2022, 01:39:13 PM
i used to get flak over the harry potter books my nutcase FIL used to bring for the kids when he visited. i would pitch em in the furnace.

i didnt mind tbe supernatural stuff. what i objected to was the celebration of a world with no moral underpinnings, no abstract right or wrong, an acceptance of evil ss a necessary component of community.

ive mellowed out since, but i still consider the books pretty shallow
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Papasito Bruno on February 10, 2022, 01:50:45 PM
Quote from: billy rubin on February 10, 2022, 01:39:13 PM
i used to get flak over the harry potter books my nutcase FIL used to bring for the kids when he visited. i would pitch em in the furnace.

i didnt mind tbe supernatural stuff. what i objected to was the celebration of a world with no moral underpinnings, no abstract right or wrong, an acceptance of evil ss a necessary component of community.

ive mellowed out since, but i still consider the books pretty shallow

I'm sorry, not sure if I read your comment correctly, but are saying you used to burn the Harry Potter Books your Father-In Law would bring as gifts for your children?
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: billy rubin on February 10, 2022, 05:36:37 PM
that is completely correct.

we burned all our garbage. we have a giant cast iron coal furnace in the basement that consumes about 4 or 5 tons of coal in the winter. also paper plates, bags, wood scraps, junk mail, old magazines, discarded books, and anything dry that doesnt go into the compost pile.

my father in law was eccentric to the point of mental illness. he would give the kids all sorts of things we asked him not to bring-- martial arts weapons (we were strict pacifists), comic books with blood-soaked illustrations, literally gabage bag aftrr garbage bag of beanie baby stuffed animals. once he brought all the kids skateboards, although we live on a dirt road miles from the pavement. you couldnt talk to him about it. he was nuts. he was a hoarder and wanted everybody else to hoard as well.

he was a follower of harold camping, and would bring esoteric berean religious books and commentaries-- not one, but five or six of each title. i still have copies of every concordance to the KJV ever written, but ive given away the duplicates.

i dont like the harry potter books because the characters were moral relativists-- evil was an accepted and necessay part of the world, and of the hogwartz school in the form of the slitherins. the followers of voldemort were distributed throughout socieyy and tolrrated there, although voldemort embodied evil. the main characters such ss dumbledore lied to get what they wanted without compunction. and so on.

the attitude towatds religion was weirdly unbalanced. every british public school has chapel, except hogwartz did not. although they celebrated christian religious holidays. voldemort had divided his soul into seven horcruxes to defend from attack.

excuse me. his soul?

and what always irked me was the exercise of magic, without a clue as to where the energy was coming from. fairies? forces of nature? aliens? cthulu? it was nevrr addtessed.

so when the kids were young i threw the harry potter books in the furnace and read them lord of the rings every night instead

when they got old enough to talk about what was in the books none of tbem had any interest in them.

Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Tom62 on February 10, 2022, 06:01:03 PM
The next time your father in law give your kids blood-soaked comic books you can send them directly to me.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Anne D. on February 12, 2022, 07:06:33 PM
Quote from: billy rubin on February 10, 2022, 05:36:37 PM
that is completely correct.

we burned all our garbage. we have a giant cast iron coal furnace in the basement that consumes about 4 or 5 tons of coal in the winter. also paper plates, bags, wood scraps, junk mail, old magazines, discarded books, and anything dry that doesnt go into the compost pile.

my father in law was eccentric to the point of mental illness. he would give the kids all sorts of things we asked him not to bring-- martial arts weapons (we were strict pacifists), comic books with blood-soaked illustrations, literally gabage bag aftrr garbage bag of beanie baby stuffed animals. once he brought all the kids skateboards, although we live on a dirt road miles from the pavement. you couldnt talk to him about it. he was nuts. he was a hoarder and wanted everybody else to hoard as well.

he was a follower of harold camping, and would bring esoteric berean religious books and commentaries-- not one, but five or six of each title. i still have copies of every concordance to the KJV ever written, but ive given away the duplicates.

i dont like the harry potter books because the characters were moral relativists-- evil was an accepted and necessay part of the world, and of the hogwartz school in the form of the slitherins. the followers of voldemort were distributed throughout socieyy and tolrrated there, although voldemort embodied evil. the main characters such ss dumbledore lied to get what they wanted without compunction. and so on.

the attitude towatds religion was weirdly unbalanced. every british public school has chapel, except hogwartz did not. although they celebrated christian religious holidays. voldemort had divided his soul into seven horcruxes to defend from attack.

excuse me. his soul?

and what always irked me was the exercise of magic, without a clue as to where the energy was coming from. fairies? forces of nature? aliens? cthulu? it was nevrr addtessed.

so when the kids were young i threw the harry potter books in the furnace and read them lord of the rings every night instead

when they got old enough to talk about what was in the books none of tbem had any interest in them.

Good on you, billy. My parents let me read whatever I wanted and suss out whether it was BS myself, and look how I turned out.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: billy rubin on February 12, 2022, 07:33:47 PM
yes. i didnt keep anything away from them when they had the maturity to grasp what they were reading.

when my kids were young we didnt have a television set in the house. still dont. but i spent every week end at a farmers market in the city with them and they would watch the television set in the motel room as much as they wanted.

but they were vulnerable. they once burst into tears at a three stooges skit where one or another of the actors was left behind at a train station. small children do not have the experience to distniguish lfe from fantasy, and so i ws careful to keep them away from things that i thought they werent ready to handle, and to explain things to them as they encountered them.

as they got older, they got more detail. i never avoided a question from them, ever, on any subject. whether it was war, the holocaust, sex, politics, prostitution, anything-- they got as much detail back as they wanted or could comprehend. these days, theyre all self-confident adults with their own opinions about anything you can think of. sometimes theyre to the left of me, sometimes theyre to the right. but they are informed, and critical of their sources.

li still point out unpopular interpretations of conventional wisdom to them. and theyve changed my mind on things as well, by pointing out aspects of questions that i hadnt thought about in a long time.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: billy rubin on February 12, 2022, 07:38:32 PM
case in point. i wrote this down at the time because it was so funny:

My ten-year old is here. I ask: "How does sex work?"

"I don't want to talk about it."

My 11 year old:  I ask: "How does sex work?"

"It's when the male and female mate."

"How?"

"You put your penis in her vagina."

"Whose vagina?"

"The woman's."

My 8-year old:  I ask: "How does sex work?"

"Why should I tell? You're asking us about all these things we already know about."

"Do you know?"

"Yes. You know, I thought I saw the two cats mating."

"How?"

"There was one on top of the other one over by the clothesline."

My 11-year old again: I ask:  "Have we talked about orgasms yet"

(My 11-year old explains how prostates provides semen to feed the sperm cells.)

"Who do you have sex with?"

"Your wife."

"Why don't you have sex with other people besides your wife?"

(My 11-year old explains sexually transmitted diseases and then walks off to bed before we get into morality.)

My seven-year old:  I ask: "How does sex work?"

"I don't know."

"Are you interested?"

"Not really."

"Do you know how babies get in?"

"No."

"Do you know how they get out?"

"Yes. They come out the vulva with a 'bilical cord on their belly button."

My four year old:  I ask: "Where do babies come from?"

"The kittens?"

"Human babies."

"The human babies come from Shawna and you. They came out of her vulva."

"How do the babies get in?"

"They come out of an egg, and you can't see the egg, because it's inside Shawna. It's cracked inside her."

"Do you want to know any more about sex?"

"Okay. Kevin, do you know where the eggs come from? They come out of the body. Like the puppies. Where's my paint? And Kevin?"

"What?"

"The puppy dogs have sex, too. Do you think the cats are allergic to dogs?"


all my kids were born at home so the older ones were familiar with the process.

Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Anne D. on February 12, 2022, 07:49:41 PM
I'm gobsmacked that you burned some young adult fantasy books rather than let your kids read them b/c you didn't want them possibly influenced by "moral relativists." Wow.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: billy rubin on February 12, 2022, 08:08:38 PM
Quote from: Anne D. on February 12, 2022, 07:49:41 PM
I'm gobsmacked that you burned some young adult fantasy books  . . .


my kids were not young adults.

would you give your very young kids stacks of snuff film pornography for them learn about human relationships from?

id be gobsmacked myself if you did.

after they were older i didnt regulate anything they wanted to read or watch.

this is the kind of stuff my father in law would give a three year old child:

(https://freshcomics.s3.amazonaws.com/issue_covers/NOV120917.jpg)

no. just no.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Anne D. on February 13, 2022, 12:33:29 AM
Quote from: billy rubin on February 12, 2022, 08:08:38 PM
Quote from: Anne D. on February 12, 2022, 07:49:41 PM
I'm gobsmacked that you burned some young adult fantasy books  . . .


my kids were not young adults.

would you give your very young kids stacks of snuff film pornography for them learn about human relationships from?

id be gobsmacked myself if you did.

after they were older i didnt regulate anything they wanted to read or watch.

this is the kind of stuff my father in law would give a three year old child:

(https://freshcomics.s3.amazonaws.com/issue_covers/NOV120917.jpg)

no. just no.

Moving the goalposts there. I'm referring specifically to your stating that you burned Harry Potter books rather than allow your kids to read about characters you considered moral relativists. That's what gets the wow.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: billy rubin on February 13, 2022, 01:21:10 AM
then you need to read th ewhole thing, anne:

i dont like the harry potter books because the characters were moral relativists-- evil was an accepted and necessay part of the world, and of the hogwartz school in the form of the slitherins. the followers of voldemort were distributed throughout socieyy and tolrrated there, although voldemort embodied evil. the main characters such ss dumbledore lied to get what they wanted without compunction. and so on.

i dont know whether you have raised children. but in my case i consider raising children with a moral sense of right and wrong to be an essential foundation of their upbringing.

do you believe in right and wrong? that harming innocent people is wrong, and that defending the defenseless is right?

that challenging evil in your neighborhood is a good thing to do, and accepting evil in friends and neighbors is something that is less good?

that distinction is not present in the harry potter series. as i said, malfoy and the slyhterins and their obvious evil were just another part of the family. the town where they bought their magical accoutrements had its own merchants for black magical purchases. the death eaters that tormented the muggles were not confronted or stopped. harry and dumbledore practiced deceit and dishonesty to achieve their ends, in the same way that the so called villains practiced theirs.

harry potters world had no underlying structure of right or wrong. evil and good were equally acceptable strategies for building a society, and no matter what you were there was a dormitory at hogwaertz that would let you hone your skills, and a world outside where you could practice them with impunity and acceptance.

the heroes in harry potter were no different from the villains, except that in the end, they were ones that won.

moral relativism is the idea that right and wrong do not exist. i personally do not believe that they do, but i believe that the concept is one that takes more maturity to comprehend than a five year old child possesses. there is plenty of time for a young adult to evaluate young adult subjects with the skills that come with being a young adult.

so yes. i screened what my impressionable very young children were exposed to, and i think anybody who would do differently would be a pretty poor parent. children grow in judgement and discernment as they get older, and to treat a five year old the same way i would treat a fifteen year old is as flawed a manner of parenting as i can imagine.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Anne D. on February 13, 2022, 01:30:41 AM
Quote from: billy rubin on February 13, 2022, 01:21:10 AM
then you need to read th ewhole thing, anne:

i dont like the harry potter books because the characters were moral relativists-- evil was an accepted and necessay part of the world, and of the hogwartz school in the form of the slitherins. the followers of voldemort were distributed throughout socieyy and tolrrated there, although voldemort embodied evil. the main characters such ss dumbledore lied to get what they wanted without compunction. and so on.

i dont know whether you have raised children. but in my case i consider raising children with a moral sense of right and wrong to be an essential foundation of their upbringing.

do you believe in right and wrong? that harming innocent people is wrong, and that defending the defenseless is right?

that challenging evil in your neighborhood is a good thing to do, and accepting evil in friends and neighbors is something that is less good?

that distinction is not present in the harry potter series. as i said, malfoy and the slyhterins and their obvious evil were just another part of the family. the town where they bought their magical accoutrements had its own street for black magical purchases. the death eaters that tormented the muggles were not confronted or stopped. harry and dumbledore practiced deceit and dishonesty to achieve their ends, in the same way that the so called villains practiced theirs.

harry potters world had no underlying structure of right or wrong. evil and good were equally acceptable strategies for building a society, and no matter what you were there was a dormitory at hogwaertz that would let you hone your skills, and a world outside where you could practice them with impunity and acceptance.

the heroes in harry potter were no different from the villains, except that in the end, they were ones that won.

moral relativism is the idea that right and wrong do not exist. i personally do not believe that they do, but i believe that the concept is one that takes more maturity to comprehend than a five year old child possesses. there is plenty of time for a young adult to evaluate young adult subjects with the skills that come with being a young adult.

so yes. i screened what my impressionable very young children were exposed to, and i think anybody who would do differently would be a pretty poor parent. children grow in judgement and discernment as they get older, and to treat a five year old the same way i would treat a fifteen year old is as flawed a manner of parenting as i can imagine.

I did read your whole post. You don't trust your kids to think for themselves. You read the HP books yourself, came to the conclusion they promoted evil, but didn't trust that your kids could come to their own conclusions. Thousands of other kids read the books as youngsters and somehow emerged unscathed. But you chose to burn the books rather than let your kids read them. I'm just remarking that that's pretty fucking extreme and, if I do say so myself, fucked up.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: billy rubin on February 13, 2022, 01:57:10 AM
anne, have you noticed that we re talking about a five year old child who cannot read at all, much less make adult evaluations about right and wrong, truth and fiction, or good and evil?

would you drop your five year old child off at the bus station alone to make a cross country trip, by themselves?

apparently so.

would you send your unaccompanied five year old child off to a party in the company of un-supervised teenagers?

apparently so.

would you notice that a five year old does not have the intellectual or emotional experience or discernment to understand and process human behaviour and societal norms in the same way that a young adult does?

apparently not.

for crying out loud, anne, observe the context here.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Anne D. on February 13, 2022, 04:04:18 AM
Quote from: billy rubin on February 13, 2022, 01:57:10 AM
anne, have you noticed that we re talking about a five year old child who cannot read at all, much less make adult evaluations about right and wrong, truth and fiction, or good and evil?

would you drop your five year old child off at the bus station alone to make a cross country trip, by themselves?

apparently so.

would you send your unaccompanied five year old child off to a party in the company of un-supervised teenagers?

apparently so.

would you notice that a five year old does not have the intellectual or emotional experience or discernment to understand and process human behaviour and societal norms in the same way that a young adult does?

apparently not.

for crying out loud, anne, observe the context here.

You can't argue your own point. Classic moving the goal posts move. The issue is this: If my five year old kid can read, and (s)he picked up a HP book, then have at it, kid. You keep bringing up more and more outrageous scenarios that are far from the original scenario you posted about. You're being totally disingenuous and keep deliberately trying to change your original argument.

In second grade, I had an elementary school librarian try to stop me from checking out a book. My parents were fine with me reading whatever I could get my hands on. HP didn't exist at that time, but my parents wouldn't have given one wit if it had and I'd wanted to read it. You have a different philosophy. Fine. Own it.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: billy rubin on February 13, 2022, 04:38:14 AM
well, i dont know what to say, anne. ive told you what i did, and why i did it. repeatedly.

nothing i have said is inconsistent with anything else ive said, but the more information i give you, the less you understand it.

im not going to try anymore. we ll just have to move on to some other subject, i guess.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Bad Penny II on February 15, 2022, 11:17:34 AM
Quote from: billy rubin on February 10, 2022, 05:36:37 PM
i dont like the harry potter books because the characters were moral relativists-- evil was an accepted and necessay part of the world, and of the hogwartz school in the form of the slitherins. the followers of voldemort were distributed throughout socieyy and tolrrated there, although voldemort embodied evil. the main characters such ss dumbledore lied to get what they wanted without compunction. and so on.

The heroes of the story didn't tolerate evil, they fought it.
We are better than them, their place is below us, we will put them in their place.
You who are like us, join with us or die.
It's a bit Hilterish.
Some decided to defy.
Consider the tortured comatose Longbottoms, Harry's dead parents.

They lied, maybe, or twisted a truth, to save lives to prevent great wrongs, pffft.


Quote from: billy rubin on February 10, 2022, 05:36:37 PM

the attitude towatds religion was weirdly unbalanced.

Fuck religion


Quote from: billy rubin on February 10, 2022, 05:36:37 PM

so when the kids were young i threw the harry potter books in the furnace and read them lord of the rings every night instead


Ha ha, chortle chortle, orks eating and orking any flesh they can get is OK
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: billy rubin on February 15, 2022, 04:51:20 PM
Quote from: Bad Penny II on February 15, 2022, 11:17:34 AM
The heroes of the story didn't tolerate evil, they fought it.

i did not see that. i saw two co-equal factions fighting for supremacy.

the good ate alongside evil in the canteen, shopped in the same part of town (different stores) and spent time with evil as equal and rightful citizens.

Quote from: billy rubin on February 10, 2022, 05:36:37 PM

so when the kids were young i threw the harry potter books in the furnace and read them lord of the rings every night instead

Quote
Ha ha, chortle chortle, orks eating and orking any flesh they can get is OK


you miss the point.

the lord of the rings made a distinction between good and evil. harry potter makes no such distinction.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Bad Penny II on February 16, 2022, 08:42:41 AM
Quote from: billy rubin on February 15, 2022, 04:51:20 PM
Quote from: Bad Penny II on February 15, 2022, 11:17:34 AM
The heroes of the story didn't tolerate evil, they fought it.

i did not see that. i saw two co-equal factions fighting for supremacy.

the good ate alongside evil in the canteen, shopped in the same part of town (different stores) and spent time with evil as equal and rightful citizens.

Quote from: billy rubin on February 10, 2022, 05:36:37 PM

so when the kids were young i threw the harry potter books in the furnace and read them lord of the rings every night instead

Quote
Ha ha, chortle chortle, orks eating and orking any flesh they can get is OK


you miss the point.

the lord of the rings made a distinction between good and evil. harry potter makes no such distinction.

I could see why you'd think that, if your morality was suffering something akin to an autoimmune disease.

Let us consider the House Elves.
The fascist types owned them, enslaved them.
Hogwarts had some, Dumbledore treated them as well as he could.
Meals just appear, people don't ask from where, like shoes from Asia.
Hermione is outraged by the situation and takes action.
Harry frees an elf from his evil master through deception involving a sock,
obviously in your moraly absolute universe he was wrong to do so.

Horgwarts doesn't teach evil.
Some students come from what you might consider evil families, supremacists.
Are vehicles festooned with confederate flags allowed to drop off kids at American schools?

The class system in TLOTR, makes me cringe.
My loyal Sam,
Mr Frodo
Why is Sam as subservient as magically entrapped house elf?

Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: billy rubin on February 16, 2022, 11:13:38 PM
Quote from: Bad Penny II on February 16, 2022, 08:42:41 AM
Quote from: billy rubin on February 15, 2022, 04:51:20 PM
Quote from: Bad Penny II on February 15, 2022, 11:17:34 AM
The heroes of the story didn't tolerate evil, they fought it.

i did not see that. i saw two co-equal factions fighting for supremacy.

the good ate alongside evil in the canteen, shopped in the same part of town (different stores) and spent time with evil as equal and rightful citizens.

Quote from: billy rubin on February 10, 2022, 05:36:37 PM

so when the kids were young i threw the harry potter books in the furnace and read them lord of the rings every night instead

Quote
Ha ha, chortle chortle, orks eating and orking any flesh they can get is OK


you miss the point.

the lord of the rings made a distinction between good and evil. harry potter makes no such distinction.

I could see why you'd think that, if your morality was suffering something akin to an autoimmune disease.

Let us consider the House Elves.
The fascist types owned them, enslaved them.
Hogwarts had some, Dumbledore treated them as well as he could.
Meals just appear, people don't ask from where, like shoes from Asia.
Hermione is outraged by the situation and takes action.
Harry frees an elf from his evil master through deception involving a sock,
obviously in your moraly absolute universe he was wrong to do so.

Horgwarts doesn't teach evil.
Some students come from what you might consider evil families, supremacists.
Are vehicles festooned with confederate flags allowed to drop off kids at American schools?

The class system in TLOTR, makes me cringe.
My loyal Sam,
Mr Frodo
Why is Sam as subservient as magically entrapped house elf?


good questions all of them. cant deal with them at length right now but i can offer some alternative views.

a slave master who is benevolent to his slaves is still a slavemaster. dumbledore was a generous and kindly  massa, it seems. yet he kept slaves and used them. i see no moral hero there.

hogwatrz didnt teach evil but neither did the whole culture make any attempt to restrict or even identify the death eaters who tormented muggles, in one instance. just what exactly was hogwartz teaching? was there ever a discussion of of the right and wrong use of the methods they taught? maybe so, i cant recall. but there seemed no attempt at it that i can remember. who paid for the place? was there tuition? maybe this was covered.its been along time.

regarding black and white morals, thats the funny thing about nihilism. since i dont believe morality has a genuine underpinning, i am under no compulsion tomake excuses for not following it. i dont have to generate reasons why people are actually justified in bending theirown rules, or in looking for good reasons to make up for performi g evil actions. all i do is observe that evenpeople who champion a moral structure in something like harry potter are reduced to explaining away its obvious contradictions with whatabouts and itz-not-as-bad-as-thats. if right and wro g are so easily sidestepped, what exactly is right and wrong anyway?

all im doing is observing that the literary device in the harrytter books was very shallow when it came to good and evil. i dont need to justify anything. i just describe whats there.

your e right about sam gamgee, touching his hat and loyal servant and all . it was actually worse than that. do you recall a single person in the books who wasnt fair haired and light skinned and tall and blonde and mostly anglo saxon? i think the harads from the east were described as somewhat oriental in faramirs attack at ithilien and in the scene at the mordor gates. the trilogy was much more than a celebration of mid century claszism, it was a celebration of aryan supremacy. i was talking with lovely wife about that the other day.

bjt even so, good and evil were clearly bounded in the lord of the rings.im still satisfied with my decision to expose my young children to one and let them read the other when they were older.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Davin on February 18, 2022, 06:11:23 AM
I wonder what books billy finds acceptable then. I'm not saying Harry Potter is the best shit out there, but I don't think there is anything good that would make it past the firewall if the metrics presented here were applied without bias to everything. Thinking over all the books I read, I can't think of anything that be considered moral enough also teaches any kind of moral lesson.

I'm not saying people can't dislike something because of personal taste, but morally, Harry Potter isn't that bad when compared to all other works.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Papasito Bruno on February 18, 2022, 06:26:40 PM
I agree Davin. I mean a parent can decide what books, movies, TV shows their kids can watch, that is certainly a parental right, but I don't understand why you have to actually burn the books?

My Aunt gave both my kids Bibles when they were young, and I gave the books away to Goodwill.

I just don't understand burning the books someone gave to your kids as gifts. I mean some Christians do it because they actually believe the books are demon possessed or some crazy shit like that, and Nazi's burned books as they saw the being subversive or as representing ideologies opposed to Nazism. These included books written by Jewish, communist, socialist, anarchist, liberal, pacifist, and sexologist authors among others.(Which is why some Americans want to burn books).

My son was in Scouting, and I remember one young boy's who parents were very Evangelical type Christians. I went to their house a couple times, and they had passages of scripture painted all along the walls of their house. They got really upset because once on a Troop sponsored weekend camping trip some of the boys like my son had taken their Harry Potter books to read (Among others), and they wanted the troop to not allow such demonic trash to be allowed at any Troop events.

I remember at the meeting when they brought this up, and the Scout Master telling these weirdo parents that they may want to take their son out of the troop, because there was no way in hell we were going to ban kids from bringing books along on camping trips. (They let the boy stay for some time in the troop, but one of them would always accompany him on the camping trips, and meeting, and they always made it difficult for others in the troop, as they found moral issues with so much stuff, like music...I was so happy when they pulled their kid out)

I find it hard to believe an atheist and skeptic would act this way and burn books.


Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: jumbojak on February 22, 2022, 02:04:46 AM
I'm going to have to disagree with your assessment of the Harry Potter series Billy. The story isn't one of moral relativism. It's a story about the real world set in a universe that kids can understand and engage with.

Yes, Dumbledore was a bad guy. He fooled the whole society. But people do that all the time. What's more, he was clearly troubled by what he felt he had to do. He is a complicated character that combines competing interests into a very real person. 

Snape was a member of the Death Eaters who reformed and came to be a pivotal part of their eventual overthrow. He was an undercover agent for their opposition who, despite being an unlikable man, worked to correct his past mistakes.

The Death Eaters we're hunted and imprisoned. Some of them were, anyway. They were thrown into the worst prison imaginable. Some of them escaped justice for a time and society tolerated their existence. That's how real societies work.

That's how growing up works. You have a childish view of the world that gradually shreds to a mature understanding of the fact that the world isn't a perfect place where right and wrong are easily divided along a clear line.

That's what I find so brilliant about those books. They start out as children's books that an adult can read and enjoy and gradually develop into an engrossing universe that facilitates sophisticated human interactions.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: billy rubin on February 22, 2022, 12:32:04 PM
none of what you say about the books is incorrect. except that i would not call tolerance of evil to be sophisticated. as a side note, i disagree with you about right and wrong. i think they can be very clearly divided. what us murky is the human decision about how wrong we are willing to be, and which wrongs we will choose over which other wrongs, if no right choice is easily available. the human application of morality to a great extent is an exercise in how and where we will ignore what we say are our values.

but anyway, i assume that you are familiar with video games,  jumbo? they come with age related ratings for people to use in assessing whether those games are appropriate for kids, of different ages. they ranfe from E for everyone for mild miscief and comedy, up to AO Adults Only for games like "seduce me" and "thrill kill."

i dont pay much attention to ratings as i make those decisions on my own, but the fact that they exist is my point. in my case i had kids who could read ranging in age from about 6 to 14. that means that books in the hkuse thst a 14 year old could read and understand were also accessible to a six year old.

remember the dinner party voldemort held with his minions? there was a scene where everybody sat down at the table to listen to voldemorts plans. all the while a former ally of voldemort was being eaten alive by a giant snake, in the air suspended over the table.

that sort of scene can be processed by adults ans a 14 year old, but i choose not to inflict it on my younger children


as to whether the books were actually any good or of any value, i let my kids decide for themsrlves when they were older. my nutcase father in law kept giving us copies of the same books over and over, and so when the kids were older i stopped burning them with the garbage.

but none of them were much interested in the books by the time they were old enough to understand the themes, so it was a moot point

Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Papasito Bruno on March 04, 2022, 07:48:59 PM
America's continue decline, and obsession with the death of our children is even more evident after WEE1 Tactical launched the "JR-15 at an annual shooting-sports trade show.

What is the JR-15 you ask?

It's a kids' version of the AR-15! Which is only the assault-rifle used in 11 of the 12 most high-profile mass shootings, including Sandy Hook and Las Vegas.

The JR-15 is a murder weapon whose "ergonomics are geared towards children", as it's lighter than the adult version at 2.2 pounds, and roughly 20% smaller.

It's a 22 caliber rifle, which the company touts has a lower recoil, and will be less painful for little shoulders when fired. They also claim since it's a 22 caliber that it's basically non-lethal...cuz', 22 caliber bullets can't kill.

Here's the fucking logo which comprises two skulls depicted as a little boy and girl, each sucking on pacifiers, and with a gun sight over one eye.
How nice.
(https://i.imgur.com/zUWl3tk.png)

Here's a page from their flyer...BABIES FIRST AR-15 :daddance:
QuoteGET EM ONE LIKE YOURS
(https://i.imgur.com/q6KtRGM.png)

Between August and December 2021, there were 136 instances of gunfire on school grounds, including one here in Michigan in November 2021. Kid shot up school with weapon his parents only recently bought him, and to which his mommy referred to as his "new Christmas present"!

Mass shootings aside there's also been an increase in accidental shootings at home during the pandemic: From March through December 2020, there were 31% more accidental gun deaths than in the same period in 2019.

What's next mini-hand grenades, and claymore mines for the kiddos?
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Dark Lightning on March 04, 2022, 08:50:15 PM
This is beyond ridiculous. I'm hoping that there will be sufficient parental supervision with these pieces of junk. A .22 can even kill a bear if used correctly.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Bad Penny II on March 05, 2022, 12:12:57 AM
Well I don't like them using my initials on their killing things.
Why can't they used them on some necessary thing, like a soft toy Antechinus

(https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca887773594c2.wixmp.com/f/dcdb3754-3a34-4a1e-a9f6-6207f7c06e01/d5uz2ho-84e45113-aaa2-4800-aec7-257060008b01.jpg?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2RjZGIzNzU0LTNhMzQtNGExZS1hOWY2LTYyMDdmN2MwNmUwMVwvZDV1ejJoby04NGU0NTExMy1hYWEyLTQ4MDAtYWVjNy0yNTcwNjAwMDhiMDEuanBnIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.6xzFZHOLt9p1iTs_iGvZU0sv7WDbRPS6X7uaIPD1M0w)

Or maybe a kitchen aid you can fearlessly leave unused in your third kitchen draw, like an Apple Reamer.
If I was of a strange foreign mindset I might find it amusing my big brother's initials are now applied to the juniors gun.
Some gun people think you should call these weapons, not guns and they get quite annoyed.
I know, I don't care, I have no fear, as long as they're nowhere near.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Recusant on March 05, 2022, 06:43:46 AM
Quote from: Papasito Bruno on March 04, 2022, 07:48:59 PM
America's continue decline, and obsession with the death of our children is even more evident after WEE1 Tactical launched the "JR-15 at an annual shooting-sports trade show.

What is the JR-15 you ask?

It's a kids' version of the AR-15! Which is only the assault-rifle used in 11 of the 12 most high-profile mass shootings, including Sandy Hook and Las Vegas.

The JR-15 is a murder weapon whose "ergonomics are geared towards children", as it's lighter than the adult version at 2.2 pounds, and roughly 20% smaller.

It's a 22 caliber rifle, which the company touts has a lower recoil, and will be less painful for little shoulders when fired. They also claim since it's a 22 caliber that it's basically non-lethal...cuz', 22 caliber bullets can't kill.

Here's the fucking logo which comprises two skulls depicted as a little boy and girl, each sucking on pacifiers, and with a gun sight over one eye.
How nice.
(https://i.imgur.com/zUWl3tk.png)

Here's a page from their flyer...BABIES FIRST AR-15 :daddance:
QuoteGET EM ONE LIKE YOURS
(https://i.imgur.com/q6KtRGM.png)

Between August and December 2021, there were 136 instances of gunfire on school grounds, including one here in Michigan in November 2021. Kid shot up school with weapon his parents only recently bought him, and to which his mommy referred to as his "new Christmas present"!

Mass shootings aside there's also been an increase in accidental shootings at home during the pandemic: From March through December 2020, there were 31% more accidental gun deaths than in the same period in 2019.

What's next mini-hand grenades, and claymore mines for the kiddos?

I wanted it to be a parody, even though I knew it most likely wasn't. Freedom-- it isn't just for adults.  :shooty: :picard facepalm:
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: billy rubin on March 05, 2022, 12:35:37 PM
not a parody. heres the philosophy

QuoteOur goal was to develop a shooting platform that was not only sized correctly, and safe, but also looks, feels, and operates just like Mom and Dad's gun. That platform became the JR-15 22LR.

i own firearms and my kids have all been caregully instructed in their safe use since they were little. but this pushes the wrong buttons

skull and crossbones logos? seriously?

the AR15 was developed as a combat weapon, buts pretty much a generalist modern rifle. semiauto is standard these days, pistol grips go back, monte carlo stocks have been standard for a hundred years. it does have features for tactical use- accessory rails as nd so on.

the AR15 is like a sports car-- fast, handles well, looks and performs like the ones professional racers use. the difference is that the military origins and features wrre designed to kill people and the gun does that very well.

ive thought a lot about this very difficult issue and have come to the conclusion that barring a cultural sea change the only thing that would help is regulation of all semiautomatic weapons in the same way we regulate full autos- restrictions and licensing. and a ban on large capacity magazines.

but until there is a major cultural change that wont happen. and the entire first world war was fought with bolt action small capacity clips, so death wouldnt be going away.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Papasito Bruno on March 21, 2022, 08:14:52 PM
At least 8 people were killed and more than 60 hurt in 9 mass shootings across the US this weekend
(//http://)


So I guess we need to buy more guns?


Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on May 17, 2022, 01:48:45 PM
Well, dammit, it happened again. 10 dead and others injured because some white supremist idiot decided to kill evil old black ladies buying ice cream. A good guy with a gun (imagine having to have a security guard at a grocery store) got killed because the murderer came with full tactical gear. The guard shot him but it had no effect, and then the guard got killed. The gun lobby says "everyone should have a gun so they can stop the bad guy with the gun", but not when he has body armor!  So the right to bear arms has now become the right to wear full combat gear in a grocery store. If all those little black ladies had guns, they would have still been killed.

Fox News, especially Fucker Carlson, shares some blame. They spew this "replacement theory" rhetoric, which is just racism dressed up to sound sophisticated, and it affects young, angry white people and influences them to do this shit. Frankly, I hope little old black ladies do replace these whitetrash supremists. Then, the world would be a better place.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: billy rubin on May 17, 2022, 06:33:53 PM
https://twitter.com/NikkiMcR/status/1380309798957285376?t=1tqdsoJ4Li5qAw193kyPJQ&s=19
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Asmodean on May 18, 2022, 11:52:21 AM
Quote from: Papasito Bruno on March 04, 2022, 07:48:59 PM(https://i.imgur.com/q6KtRGM.png)
I mean... There was a time when my parents could have bought their way out of a lot of guilt for quite a long time with one of those there.

On a somewhat more sombre note, the availability of a tool is one issue. How people use it is another. Is there a reason a twelve year old cannot be responsible with one of those there rifles, if supervised by parents who are responsible with theirs?

The US gun community tends to balk at any hoops to be jumped through between them and guns, but then, where I'm at, it cost me several months and around ten thousand dollars (at the time) to get my driver's license. I would expect to have to do the same for a gun. Demonstrate that you can have it safely - or you don't get to have it.

Beyond that, my position is, as ever, nukes for everybody*

*Terms and conditions can and will apply
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Icarus on May 18, 2022, 08:30:09 PM
The second amendment was passed Dec 15, 1791.  I am OK to have that remain in place as written. However!  The rifles and handguns of the time were black powder single shot types. They were deadly enough if used skillfully.

If we are to apply the second amendment of 1791, then we need to demand that privately owned firearms must be of the kind familiar to the authors of that amendment. If the rules demanded 1791 style firearms, Columbine, Sandy Hook, Buffalo and others episodes would have had a much different outcome.   
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: billy rubin on May 18, 2022, 10:27:06 PM
lol

my number two son owns a 50 caliber flintlock.

 but you point out an interesting dilemma. judges who demand an originalist interpretation of our constitution require us to use the intent and meaning of terms and ideas as used in 1789 to interpret in todays world.

tbere were no repeating firearms in 1789, so to apply the writers intent to modern weaponry goes way beyond tbe original meaning.

but that cat is out of the bag. guns will never go out of circulation in america. law abiders and criminals alike will simpky ignore efforts to confiscate or register firearms, and there are too many untraceable guns now to ever control.

the only thong that will change gun insanity in ametica is a paradigm shift i n thinking, and we re going tbe other way
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Asmodean on May 19, 2022, 06:57:43 AM
There are a lot of guns in circulation in Norway as well, and yet somehow we barely ever shoot each other.

I'm just saying that maybe there is a larger issue in play here.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: billy rubin on May 19, 2022, 02:54:16 PM
yes.

switzerland has a rifle in every closet.

the american problem is not the gun, its the americans.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Icarus on May 25, 2022, 03:26:40 AM
We have another one.  May 24. A small town in Texas had a shooter attack an elementary school in order to kill 18 children and three adults. Others wounded.

The second amendment is enduring a bit of stupid abuse, I would say.

Please say a prayer for the families of those little kids. I am for real. Those families need all the comfort they can get. It will cost we heathens nothing, and might even bring a bit of
 needed compassion for the victim families.

Addendum: fuck the Texas-GOP gun nuts and the horse they rode in on, in Texas and elsewhere
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Firebird on May 25, 2022, 03:57:06 AM
Now it's 19 kids.
I don't even know what to do anymore. I vote every election, I donate money, I engage with people, I yell, and yet nothing ever seems to change.
And sorry, but the problem is most definitely the gun. There's a reason we're the only industrialized nation with this problem. The UK and Australia all passed restrictive gun laws (note, restrictive, NOT bans) after they endured massacres and it hasn't happened since.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: billy rubin on May 29, 2022, 09:47:47 PM
can i make what might be an unpopular observation?

i am absolutely in favor of gun control. in a sane world,  see no reason for citizens to own large capacity magazines in semi auto, body armour, and other accoutrements of military gear. thats just nuts.

but the world i live in is just nuts, too.

i own three semiauto weapons, and am contemplating buying another semiauto-- either a MAC-10 in 45 caliber, or a uzi machine pistol in 9mm. i dont need shit like this, but the puny little ruger LCP 380 i carry daily and the 45 hipoint i keep in the house are not likely to be helpful in the event that weirdness like uvalde appears on my doorstep.

i am not a threat to anybody. i have no axes to grind, no enemies to pursue, and no issues to process .but i live in a country where a gun of my own is a reasonable safety precaution against nut jobs with guns.

there are no police available to me within an hour. this is significant-- there are no municipal, state, or federal people to protect me, and uvalde illustrates what i have nown for many years-- the police are not there to protect you from harm.

having a gun-- a serious one, large capacity magazine, semi auto-- is a real solution to the world i live in. if ui could afford a license for full auto, i would happily buy an FN P90 bullpup. i dont like this, but its where i live.

interestingly, the P90 does not qualify as an assaut rifle, under the usual metrics. what kind of sense does that make?
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Icarus on June 06, 2022, 09:36:01 PM
10 more, separate, episodes scattered across the US during the weekend. Gun violence is approaching epidemic status.

Governor Abbot of Texas has proposed that school police officers carry bulletproof shields. Texas government will pay for shields. The state of Ohio is ready to encourage, perhaps even to require, teachers to pack heat. 

Abbot and the others who concoct such feeble solutions must be mentally handicapped. A decent engineer or competent craftsman will solve the problem by attacking it at the source. Politicians propose band-aid fixes. Band-aids are insufficient to stanch serious blood flow.   
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Icarus on June 06, 2022, 09:45:33 PM
Billy, did you know that FN manufactured motorcycles in the post WW2 past?  Did you know that the German sewing machine company, Adler, built some nifty bikes in the past?  So did the Swiss sewing machine firm, Bernina. Husqvarna also builds sewing machines.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Asmodean on June 07, 2022, 02:16:08 PM
Quote from: Icarus on June 06, 2022, 09:45:33 PMBilly, did you know that FN manufactured motorcycles in the post WW2 past?  Did you know that the German sewing machine company, Adler, built some nifty bikes in the past?  So did the Swiss sewing machine firm, Bernina. Husqvarna also builds sewing machines.
You know, it makes a certain amount of sense...

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/7d/87/f2/7d87f2a0e930df11e89435600fd40107.jpg)
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: billy rubin on June 07, 2022, 06:01:08 PM
i didnt know that. ive seen husqvarna kitchen appliances in sweden.

i used to have a winchester repeating arms company sausage grinder. im guessing that was a promotional giveaway.

jeez are thost cast iron wheels on that thing?

wait, im being trolled

lol
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Asmodean on June 08, 2022, 07:48:58 AM
Quote from: billy rubin on June 07, 2022, 06:01:08 PMwait, im being trolled
The Asmo would never!

...Where's my halo emoji?

Still, it does seem like sewing machine manufacturers tend to... Diversify. (Possibly into sewing machines, because hwy not?)

Like, Husqvarna's portfolio is from weapons to chainsaws, Peugeot mostly do cars these days, but they too made a sewing machine or three. Adler, as mentioned...
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Icarus on June 09, 2022, 08:26:39 PM
^ Puegeot also made motorcycles in pre WW2 days.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: billy rubin on June 09, 2022, 08:33:21 PM
BSA stands for birminghan small arms. just sayin

whats going on in this stinking country? there should be no reason that a parent has to pick up his 10 year old child at school by identifying her by her shoes, because her head is blown apart.

this is insane.

i cant speak for these folks, but i would have recommended that every dead child have had an open coffin funeral, with press photographers in the front row.

it helped with emmitt till, and it would have helped with uvalde.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Icarus on June 12, 2022, 02:30:08 PM
And BSA made the Gold Star.
Title: Another another mass shooting
Post by: Asmodean on June 26, 2022, 04:51:17 PM
Yesterday, a guy went and shot up a bar in Oslo. Two people were killed and twenty-some injured, a lot of whom seriously.

Today, the media are half-heartedly pushing some sort of insanity narrative, while avoiding dropping the I-bomb (Naming Islam, for those who don't get it) like it was... Well, a bomb. Still, healthy people don't usually go kill a bunch of strangers, so there is that.

I could use this opportunity to rant about politics, the alphabet community or gun control, but then, when tragedy hits, it's not about my better tomorrow - it's about getting through a shitty today. As such, my thoughts and best wishes are with those affected.

https://www.euronews.com/2022/06/26/us-norway-shooting
Quote from: sourceOSLO -Terrified revellers at a gay bar in Oslo hid in a basement and desperately called loved ones as a gunman went on the rampage, killing two people and injuring 21 on the day the city was due to celebrate its annual Pride parade.

Authorities said the suspect, a 42-year-old Norwegian citizen of Iranian origin, was believed to be a radicalised Islamist with a history of mental illness who had been known to intelligence services since 2015.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Asmodean on August 05, 2022, 01:55:58 PM
Yes, well, there was actually a point being made with the above being its own thread... But, to quote Kurt Cobain, "oh well, whatever, never mind."
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Tank on August 05, 2022, 01:58:07 PM
 :haironfire:  :sweeping:  :cleaning:  Sorry
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Tank on August 05, 2022, 02:01:52 PM
I've finished reading all the forums now.  ;D
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Asmodean on August 05, 2022, 02:09:50 PM
I was trying to be subtle through the use of title and the location of the shooting being otherwise-peaceful Norway.

You see, my post was made when this thread was still hot, and "every time" there is a mass shooting in the US, there is a clash of pro- and anti-gun lobbies everywhere from the halls of power to the darkest back alleys.

Well, our gun laws did not help the victims of the shooting I mentioned. They did not prevent the perpetrator from not only obtaining weapons and ammunition, but also using them to lethal effect. They did not deter the perp and they did nothing to aid the victims.

Still, our pro-gun people are very careful about using this as a platform from which to proclaim that if only there was an armed civilian there, lives could have been saved. Equally, the anti-gun people are very careful about proclaiming that all guns need to be confiscated and destroyed immediately. Some of it is just people trying to avoid any heat - the cowards (Nah. Not really. Although, a little bit, maybe) some of it though is people realising that it's harder to deny a criminal (or a criminal-to-be) the tools of his trade than merely passing a law.

Law-abiding citizens obey the law - hence the definition. Criminals don't give a shit when it suits them - or when they think they can get away with it.

...So here it is. Whatever your preferred brand of social engineering - don't expect too much from it. All it takes to topple it (if for a time) is an occasional guy who just doesn't give a fuck.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Tank on August 05, 2022, 02:17:52 PM
Split it back if you like, I won't merge it again.  :)
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: Asmodean on August 05, 2022, 02:20:21 PM
Nah. Just discussed the issue in my previous post.
Title: Re: Another Mass Shooting
Post by: billy rubin on August 05, 2022, 03:24:53 PM
the islam thing seems to be mostly western europe

i am leaving out the vastly more murderous examples of muslims in muslim countries killing other muslims over religion and politics

here in the states mass murders . . . mostly . . . seem either racist or some white guy with a gun running amok.

amoks are exactly appropriate, imo. but nobody makes the parallel here