I first heard of this man, Francis Chan, from a blogger named Max Goes Godless. She's great. Francis Chan is not. I've browsed some of his many videos and most of them strike nerves from growing up and he talks about shit I had to shed/heal from/relearn.... anyway, I feel like the first of his "2 biggest lies" is one of the most insidious, evil things that Christianity teaches people, especially kids. I honestly feel like it's bordering on child abuse, although they have "really good reasons", as explained here.
This can infect every single aspect of a person's life and ensure that one's self esteem is held to a respectable, humble low. It can hold you back from having ideas, trying new things, making plans, expecting to be treated with respect, basically from allowing a person to actually be their best self.
The "Lie"? You Are A Good Person.
Growing up, I was told a million times, in a million different ways that I'm NOT a good person, nothing about me is good, I was evil at birth, I'm nothing without God, I can do nothing of value without God, any idea I come up with by myself is probably Satan whispering in my ear. And I feel like it will take my whole life to ferret out all the ways this thinking negatively affects me.
And it makes me hate this man. I know we are a nation of freedom.... of religion and of speech, but I hate that he can just keep making these harmful videos, dragging thousands of people with him.
Filled with a little bit of wine and rage right now, and wanting to combat this somehow.....
Evil manipulation at it's finest.
Well, it seems the chancellor of douche baggery is delivering a heaping load of grade A, highest quality, bullshit.
Yum, yum, and the sheep will coming running to get some.
First class, grade A douche baggery. That video is straight out evil. It makes me want to punch something to think that people like this are out there spreading their malicious claptrap. FFS, I am angry! </rant>
I could not watch t for more than one minute. It makes me want to punch him in his face.
Quote from: Tom62 on February 03, 2018, 04:10:20 PM
I could not watch t for more than one minute. It makes me want to punch him in his face.
:this:
I want to tase him. Just to incapacitate him temporarily.
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.trackie.com%2Ftrack-and-field%2Fimg%2Flayout%2Ficon_quote.jpg&hash=c5a9d5ac5c9c0366d813e18a50510fe9aa16bfc2)Tom62:
I could not watch t for more than one minute. It makes me want to punch him in his face.
That sounds exactly like what someone who wasn't a good person would say. (https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fweb.stardock.net%2Fimages%2Fsmiles%2Fthemes%2Fdigicons%2FTongue%2520Wink.png&hash=aabb14574049673ad2605325d39b74f42cd1a972)
Quote from: No one on February 03, 2018, 07:03:42 PM
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.trackie.com%2Ftrack-and-field%2Fimg%2Flayout%2Ficon_quote.jpg&hash=c5a9d5ac5c9c0366d813e18a50510fe9aa16bfc2)Tom62:
I could not watch t for more than one minute. It makes me want to punch him in his face.
That sounds exactly like what someone who wasn't a good person would say. (https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fweb.stardock.net%2Fimages%2Fsmiles%2Fthemes%2Fdigicons%2FTongue%2520Wink.png&hash=aabb14574049673ad2605325d39b74f42cd1a972)
But he's the one going around provoking people. :snooty:
At about 1:40 the dumb fucker refers to "gods word". That is a biggie for me. He is stupidly using the KJV as an unimpeachable authority. Word of god in a pigs ass.
The Geneva bible of the early and mid 1500s was the first one ever published in the old English language. It was authorized (authorized???) by the C.O.E. Before that, both the old and newer Latin Vulgates, the Luther, and all the rest of the translations and copies of copies of copies of copies done by scribes with quill pens. The prior translations from the Aramaic and Greek? .....Aramaic had almost no vowels,. Translations were of questionable accuracy even if the old writings were based on anything that resembled reality.......All that and more, and I am always irritated even supremely pissed....and terribly disappointed at the naivete of the person who believes the bible to be an immutable authority. When someone says "It must be true because I read it in the bible", it is an insult to the intelligence of some of us.
This dude can take his original sin and stuff it where the sun does not shine. Please tell him that I suggested that course of action and that I will personally help him get his bible stuffed up his ass. Perhaps I can depend on some assistance from a few of you.
Altogether now. Let us sing...... " Jesus loves me yes I know, for the bible tells me so".
Rant finished... for now.
Quote from: Icarus on February 04, 2018, 01:00:04 AM
At about 1:40 the dumb fucker refers to "gods word". That is a biggie for me. He is stupidly using the KJV as an unimpeachable authority. Word of god in a pigs ass.
The Geneva bible of the early and mid 1500s was the first one ever published in the old English language. It was authorized (authorized???) by the C.O.E. Before that, both the old and newer Latin Vulgates, the Luther, and all the rest of the translations and copies of copies of copies of copies done by scribes with quill pens. The prior translations from the Aramaic and Greek? .....Aramaic had almost no vowels,. Translations were of questionable accuracy even if the old writings were based on anything that resembled reality.......All that and more, and I am always irritated even supremely pissed....and terribly disappointed at the naivete of the person who believes the bible to be an immutable authority. When someone says "It must be true because I read it in the bible", it is an insult to the intelligence of some of us.
This dude can take his original sin and stuff it where the sun does not shine. Please tell him that I suggested that course of action and that I will personally help him get his bible stuffed up his ass. Perhaps I can depend on some assistance from a few of you.
Altogether now. Let us sing...... " Jesus loves me yes I know, for the bible tells me so".
Rant finished... for now.
Thanks for your erudite summary of the history of the bible, Icarus. I share your feelings about that gentleman.
Quote from: Tank on February 03, 2018, 08:15:01 AM
Evil manipulation at it's finest.
I'm not one to throw the word "evil" around lightly, but yes, that is evil.
Evil it is, enhanced evil to boot because they like to get them young, (as in 2, 3, 4 ....), or vulnerable. That is so true about always feeling one is a bad person. It does stop people reaching their potential.
Quote from: Icarus on February 04, 2018, 01:00:04 AM
At about 1:40 the dumb fucker refers to "gods word". That is a biggie for me. He is stupidly using the KJV as an unimpeachable authority. Word of god in a pigs ass.
The Geneva bible of the early and mid 1500s was the first one ever published in the old English language. It was authorized (authorized???) by the C.O.E. Before that, both the old and newer Latin Vulgates, the Luther, and all the rest of the translations and copies of copies of copies of copies done by scribes with quill pens. The prior translations from the Aramaic and Greek? .....Aramaic had almost no vowels,. Translations were of questionable accuracy even if the old writings were based on anything that resembled reality.......All that and more, and I am always irritated even supremely pissed....and terribly disappointed at the naivete of the person who believes the bible to be an immutable authority. When someone says "It must be true because I read it in the bible", it is an insult to the intelligence of some of us.
This dude can take his original sin and stuff it where the sun does not shine. Please tell him that I suggested that course of action and that I will personally help him get his bible stuffed up his ass. Perhaps I can depend on some assistance from a few of you.
Altogether now. Let us sing...... " Jesus loves me yes I know, for the bible tells me so".
Rant finished... for now.
I do feel like if Christianity were to understand the true history of their bible, it would really shrink the religion. I'm pretty sure that most Christians think what I thought (which is always what we are led to believe, perhaps because nobody cares to know the damning truth about this), that our whole bible was directly translated from a select set of original manuscripts, by doctors and experts in those language fields.
Ken Ham is right about one thing: If the bible, which is Christianity's foundation, isn't believed and trusted from the very first verse, then the whole house that is built upon that foundation will crumble.
Maybe we should be focusing on that aspect more, when debating and talking to believers. I'm actually getting a little inspired here....
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.trackie.com%2Ftrack-and-field%2Fimg%2Flayout%2Ficon_quote.jpg&hash=c5a9d5ac5c9c0366d813e18a50510fe9aa16bfc2)Dragonia:
I do feel like if Christianity were to understand the true history of their bible...
Understanding, that doesn't seem very Christian thing to do. (https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fweb.stardock.net%2Fimages%2Fsmiles%2Fthemes%2Fdigicons%2FThumbs%2520Up.png&hash=e8ea77880ad2978fd09f5791a5436d85008666d2)
As much as I demean the bible,,,,,(which bible, there are a lot of them.?)...The Die Keilalphabetischen text aus Uragit, (Tom62 how does that translate) The NAB = the New Amercan Bible, The REB = the Revised English Bible, The RSV= the Revised Standard Version, TNIV= Todays New International Version, CEV= the Contemporary English Version, GNB= The Good News Bible, and a few others . Not to mention the Book of Morman or the Quaran or the Torah. SHeeesh ! What should we believe to be the inerrant word of our lord God?
Who knew that the KJV=King James Version was written by a committee of scholars at the behest of King James circa 1601 through 1610? There were 54 of the presumed, by James, best English scholars who divided them selves into six groups of nine...or nine groups of six....that is unclear and subject to argument. Each of the groups did their best to translate and assimilate the various books of the codex into an understandable language that the commoner could read. For much of the time, before that, only the clergy were allowed to read the scriptures in whatever form they might have taken. That was not a big problem because the commoners were largely illiterate non readers.
Before I got carried away with the above stuff, the intent was to mention that I still have a cherished and carefully kept copy of the KJV given to me on my 16th birthday by the people who were my foster caretakers. Yes cherished. That was 71 years ago. Those were good people who sincerely tried to guide me into the Baptist faith in which they believed to be the way of gods will.
^^^ I understand that, Icarus. I have a couple Bibles that I can not get rid of, despite how I feel about that book. One was from my mom when I got married, one was from my grandmother, and one was, at one time, my study Bible, with markings and notes and highlights all over it.
All 3 have different kinds of sentimental value.
To me, it's laughable that Chan refers to the story of YHVH murdering almost all of humanity in Noah's flood as justification for his bullshit. The supposed all-powerful creator apparently chose to cause the death of millions, but it was humanity that was guilty. This shows that people are bad? That is some genuine Christian thinking. "Our God is all good, and if he's a mass murderer, then that proves that his victims were evil." :wtf: :rofl:
I agree with him on his first point. Not the second though.
^^^ I respect your belief that no one is really good. I know people who have had a pretty dim view of humanity's basic nature, and I can see where that comes from.
Where it starts to become a problem for me is when children are getting taught this concept. That they are bad and deserve punishment, just because they exist. Or a person in a vulnerable state is told that they are inherently evil and nothing can be good without God. These scenarios infuriate me.
How can a child grow up to strive to be bold and brave and courageous and creative and a "good person" if they are told that it's hopeless and they suck, unless they enlist the help of some God.....who then ceases to actually help.
It doesn't help that I have massive emotional problems with this concept, in addition to the philosophical and intellectual problems with it. I look at my sister and how this has affected her whole life. I wish I could know how her life would have been if she had ever been told that she was good and that someone believed in her as a person.
It is imposdible to be 100% good, whatever your beliefs, but kids certainly need to understand the linits. Any person who vlaims thst they are 10o% are either deluding themselves or suffering a psychotic condition methinks.
Degree, nuance, purpose are all modifiers and qualifiers in "doing bad", the severely impoverished mother who tells her small child, "You eat it all, I'm not hungry," is telling a lie. I might break the rules of the road to get an injured person to hospital, but only so far and will willingly submit to the law should I get caught on a camera or something.
Bad deeds usually have a penalty to the fully sane person, maybe not the socio- or psychpath. If the "crime" is morally worth the penalty I will commit it. I do not need a priest of any kind to tell me where I went wrong. In the days before a good secular education was available in most cultures, when speaking out of turn could get you killed, religion was a good tool to keep the unwashed masses under control by laws and threats. Or incite them to burn the heretic or kill the godless enemy. Even when he worshipped the same god.
Now we need a new set of "rules", a new education, that at least makes sure people know the potential results of online bullying etc. Pity, in some ways that some of the old psychological classroom "games" are now considered unethical. There was one where the kids had to pick a ribbon of one of two colours - enough ties combined for the whole class split 50:50ish, and wear it somehow. Say red and green. On the toss of a coin the one group were allowed to ridicule the other, who were not allowed to fight back in any way. Next day the roles were reversed. In the '50s report of this I seem to remeber that bullying was reduced in that grade and discussion on "Right and Wrong" went up a level or two in insight.
After a mother was allowed to communicate with some Internet bullies who drove her son to suicide they mostly said, "We didn't mean it, didn't know he would do that." Wonder what they think now, are they consumed with self-destroying guilt or will that unhappy event be used to "educate" them via their own insight? We were not told on the radio. If any still think it was a valid behaviour, no matter how gawky or geeky the victim, they seriously need treatment.
My dim view of humanity's basic nature comes from a deeper understanding of my own nature and my experience of dealing with others. To say that people are not "good" isn't necessarily a slight on them. It also doesn't mean that I have, or that anyone else should have, a general dislike of people. There are plenty of people I wouldn't mourn but there are also others who's company I enjoy. A very few others but they do exist.
There is also an element of understanding that in order to do what I would consider to be good I would have to also do what I might consider to be great evil. Honestly, the dichotomy is torturous if I let myself dwell on the thought. I suppose that many others have felt the same way and acted to bring their view of a good world into being.
Whether through personal squeamishness or a lack of commitment I can't act in that way. I keep myself as busy as I can and try not to think about it. Who knows, I may change my views - anyone who has been here long enough to remember when I first joined HAF can tell that I already have once - and be able to carry on like I suppose most people do.
For now though I'll stick to staying busy. You don't need God to be good because you can never, really, be good. Just varying shades of grey.