Happy Atheist Forum

Addiction can be very destructive in the lives of the addicted and those around the addicted. When you are addicted to alcohol or drugs, you can see an effect clearly because more people are not addicted to alcohol or drugs, so there is a clear distinction that can be drawn between those who are or aren't alcoholics.

Dealing with those who are addicted to religion is quite different, especially in countries like the US where religion is by far in the majority. Imagine living in a country where most people are alcoholics.

If you are starting to realize the destructive nature of religion, and you feel that religion no longer holds any positive place in your life or those around you, it may be time to consider whether religion is right or not (morally and reasonably). That's what we're here for.

Here are your steps:
1) Admit that you have been controlled by and have been powerless against religion.
2) Admit that religion has been a destructive force in your life, and has kept you afraid and hurt.
3) Recognize that you are your own higher power, and that it is you who can break this addiction.
4) Make amends to those who you believe may have been harmed by your evangelism or religious behavior.
5) Develop your own perception of the world around you based on reason, absent the presence of the fictitious.
6) Change your behavior and moral code to fit your new and more reasonable perception of the world.
7) Help others who ask for help in their addiction.

As someone who not only has gone through this myself, but has helped others through this process, it seems helpful to be able to act as an advisor and be there for those who may need help during the difficult transition between theist and atheist.

Be aware that you could go through serious grief when separating from religion. You may go through:
1) Denial [schild=3 fontcolor=000000 shadowcolor=C0C0C0 shieldshadow=1]No way, I'm still Christian!! You shut up!![/schild]


2) Anger [schild=17 fontcolor=000000 shadowcolor=C0C0C0 shieldshadow=1]Why did they lie to me?! Those b***ards!![/schild]


3) Bargaining [schild=1 fontcolor=000000 shadowcolor=C0C0C0 shieldshadow=1]Alright, I don't believe in the Bible, but I still think there is a higher power[/schild]


4) Depression [schild=16 fontcolor=000000 shadowcolor=C0C0C0 shieldshadow=1]S**t... well this sucks[/schild]


5) Acceptance [schild=11 fontcolor=000000 shadowcolor=C0C0C0 shieldshadow=1]There is no god. Wow, what a weight off my shoulders! *dances*[/schild]



Just know there are people out there to help you, myself included. With any luck, you can be a happy atheist!!

So, this got me to thinking ... if religion is addictive then maybe we need a warning?  I mean, the surgeon general puts warnings on cigarette packs, right?  So I went searching the web and found a guy on flickr that already has an appropriate label for the bible - click on the link and check it out - its awesome:

http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=66867139&size=o

that's... a really accurate label. Nice. And Willravel, are you a psychologist? You sound like one to me. Just wondering.

Quote from: "shoruke"that's... a really accurate label. Nice. And Willravel, are you a psychologist? You sound like one to me. Just wondering.

I've been known to dabble.

For the sake of this thread, though, I'm just some guy who's already been through this.

Ah. Fair enough. Good to have you around, though; people who know both sides of the spectrum are a welcome addition to any atheist community, I think.

Haha, the Kubler-Ross model...that's great stuff Will!

What, no umlaut?!

Yes, I find the Kübler-Ross model to be an invaluable tool in understanding the basic stages possible when dealing with grief.

LOVE that, Willravel... may I quote you? :-)

Quote from: "rlrose328"LOVE that, Willravel... may I quote you? :-)

Sure. So long as no one else takes credit.

No problem... I'm not that clever.  LOL!

What an accurate progression of events. Unfortunately, I stalled out at the Bargaining and Depression for about 15 years until I found the Counsel for Secular Humanism and Unitarian Universalism. (I am actually a religious atheist now... what an oxymoron).

childprime

I love secular humanism. I think it's a great outlook on and perception of life. Sorry it took so long, though.

What the "heck"? Do you have to be an atheist AND a rocket scientist at the same prise in order to get the slightest sense of these pages? Admittedly, I'm an ignoramus regarding how these forums work in general, but I found myself quite helpless when I tried to answer to a kind welcome note to this site.
Thanks in advance,
PR

I hope I'm learning the ropes, but still uncertain wether this message lands on the right spot.
Just glimpsing these pages got me wondering; do atheists give a sparrow's fart about horoscopes, Chinese or whatever? What next, little green men (women), flying teapots???

PR

Will, more than anything, I like the sentiment.  Allowing an atheist to grow naturally, psychologically speaking, is far preferable than subjecting one to assault.

Ok, so I need help, but here's the thing. I've never really been what you'd call religious. I never really bought into any of that stuff as a kid, and I totally rebelled against it as a teenager, declaring myself an atheist. But because I was young and stupid, I never really considered the consequences of this world view. Then I discovered Buddhism, and parts of it appealed a lot to me. I started to formulate my own spiritual beliefs based on what made me feel good, kind of a mish mash of all the best parts of world religion, and I thought 'hey, if everybody else can believe this crap, why can't I believe in my own stuff.' I always had a voice at the back of my mind with which these beliefs didn't wash, but since this voice was also the source of everything negative in my life, I guess I dismissed it. But since then, I have learnt a lot more about the world, science, and people. I now cannot dismiss the idea that all life is without purpose, and that we are nothing but genetic machines programmed to pass on DNA. Everything I think or feel is simply the result of random genetics. There is no 'me'. What I want doesn't matter. It's just the result of random genetics. Ideas of love, beauty, and selflessness are all simply the result of self-perpetuating genetics. There is no truth, just prejudices bought about by random genetics. Everything I think is good is subjective. I only think something is good because of sheer random chance. I now understand why religious people are so hostile to science. Ignorance is bliss. Don't worry, i'm not suicidal or anything. I just don't have any motivation. If my desires are nothing but the result of random genetics, then why should I follow them. If my altruistic desires are nothing but the result of selfish genes, then why bother. If you can't trust your desires - e.g., your desire to believe in a purpose beyond this existence - then what can you trust? What do you do? If everything I know in my heart is simply self-delusion, there is no real good, then what's the point? I still care, but I just don't believe that caring means anything. I don't want to bring people down with this stuff, but at the same time I'm sick of feeling like nothing matters. It sucks. That's why religious belief is so widespread. Imagination is the drug of the masses. People aspire to more than what is. I figured as atheists you guys would probably be the best people to help. I used to label myself as agnostic, but it just doesn't work anymore. I suppose at some level I'm hoping to wake up and discover that it's all a bad dream, that we all live in a world where there is a purpose, and what we feel corresponds with reality. Anyway, please help! Seriously, how do you guys deal with this stuff? And please don't say clinical help!

First off, I love paragraphs. They make things easy to read.

Life doesn't have to be without purpose. It can be your responsibility to develop purpose just as many other people, myself included, do.

Religion is someone thrusting their philosophy on you instead of allowing you to come up with your own. It's not bliss, it's imprisonment. They break you down by telling you how bad you are, and then build you up with their lies and half truths, which is torture. The scary thing is some religious people don't know why they're sad.

If you want to life a meaningful life, then it's up to you to define those terms. There may not be good or evil, but there most certainly is constructive or destructive, selfless or selfish, happy or sad. You need to come to terms with subjectivity, and learn that it's okay to place importance on your own perceptions, thoughts and deeds, and those of others. What are you comfortable with? What makes you happy? Go with it. Don't worry about the why if it's going to bug you. I don't know why forums make me happy, but they do. So I post. I also love swimming and writing music. It's in my life that I find tons of meaning. I find meaning in family and friends, creating art, doing my job well, relationships with wonderful women, and Battlestar Galactica (I love that show). Allow yourself to experience joy and allow that to be your meaning. It's not like anyone is requiring you to find meaning in a dead carpenter or anything. Find meaning in what you want.

It's also important to remember that our history can provide all the meaning one can handle. What direction is humanity heading in? Is it good or bad? If it's good, maybe find a way to help out. If you see problems, go try to fix them.

Best of circumstance.

Well-said Will!

My happiness comes from watching family guy, or cops while sitting on my couch with my wife, dog and cat.

It is very sad to think of the futlity and lack of purpose of the life of an individual with such a view.

 Your mockary of the steps to recovery only shows that your basis for atheism comes from:

A) Pure ignorance of the value, need and validity of the Higher Power to which so many alcoholics and addicts attribute their recovery.

B) You utter falure at an attempt of recovery, easily creditted to your atheism.

C) The great pain you have experienced in your life from your invlovement with a sick and suffering alcoholic/addict who could not adhere to the simple concepts prescribed by so many who have successfully recovered.

 I will pray for you!

Quote from: "nickweb"I now cannot dismiss the idea that all life is without purpose, and that we are nothing but genetic machines programmed to pass on DNA.

Try not to fall into the nihlistic trap that nothing matters.  Things matter because we decide they matter.  Not because some god or religion says so, or because some scientific principle says so.  We have a say in how our lives play out.  No, we can't control everything, but we can decide how we view the things we can't control.  I hope that makes sense and gives you something to consider.  

Buddhism has a lot to offer a person who is searching for their own answers.  I don't agree with everything I've read about Buddhism (or any other religion for that matter) but I don't see anything wrong with the "pick and choose" philosophy of their beliefs.  

Keep searching for your own truth and never stop questioning.  That's how I got here.  Good luck, nickweb.

Quote from: "impuzzled"It is very sad to think of the futlity and lack of purpose of the life of an individual with such a view.

 Your mockary of the steps to recovery only shows that your basis for atheism comes from:

A) Pure ignorance of the value, need and validity of the Higher Power to which so many alcoholics and addicts attribute their recovery.

B) You utter falure at an attempt of recovery, easily creditted to your atheism.

C) The great pain you have experienced in your life from your invlovement with a sick and suffering alcoholic/addict who could not adhere to the simple concepts prescribed by so many who have successfully recovered.

 I will pray for you!

If you're gonna pray, can you pray to Apollo, please? I love that one. Oh, or the jaguar monster that Olmec shamans prayed to. Big cats are cool. But not Jesus. That's like praying to the Bob Vila of the deity world.

My "mockery" was a successful attempt to assist a friend who was going through grief as he was separating from religion. Knowing that I was an atheist, he asked me if we had any 12 step programs. "Not that I know of" was the genesis of my idea. He is now happy and well adjusted, and is exploring what it means to write one's own destiny free of an oppressive organization that requires emotional and financial investment. I'd go so far as to call him a happy atheist.

I am not now nor have I ever been addicted to alcohol. As a matter of fact, I rarely drink the stuff. Intoxication doesn't hold any value to this particular free thinker (though I know it's not my place to judge others... a lesson I wish the religious would learn). Any pain I've experienced in my life is either at the hands of other people or circumstance, neither of which I can really blame. I've always come out the other side a little stronger and hopefully a little wiser. As a matter of fact, I find value and meaning (subjectively) in my suffering because it allows me a further understanding of my existence.

It's worth mentioning that an atheist has never meant me harm nor has done harm to me. Religious people, on the other hand, have been quite parasitic (usually unintentionally, but the good intent is undone by malicious behavior and a superiority complex). This is why I'm so surprised that religion plays a role in the supposed release from addiction of alcohol in the 12 step program. It's almost as if they intend to replace the alcohol with a new addiction. That, impuzzled, is what's really sad.

I hope you'll ask me any questions you may have about atheism. I can't promise I'll pray for you, but I can do you one better: I can keep an open but realistic mind during a discussion.

Why would one want to believe in Sky Pappy when He doesn't stop such as the Holocaust?  I didn't constantly praise my parents and no god needs praise unless it is so pathetic.
 Thanks, Willravel. Theists need your step-program!

I was getting ready for yet another Easter Sunday morning. It's a time I've hated for a long time now, especially the last five years. I'm not really rebellious and I don't dislike Christians. However, for five years I have been openly non-Christian. That is, I, respectfully, don't believe in the Bible or in Jesus. I don't believe in any holy books I know of, and I am skeptical of any organized religion.

     Finally, this Easter morning, I decided I was tired. I am tired of going through the motions of being a Christian simply because my family is. I'm tired of going to Church and listening to ideas I haven't believed in since I was 12 years old. I'm tired of sitting in silent protest as I watch the women getting tremors (spirit) and falling on their knees or on the floor like fools. And most of all, I'm tired of listening to people chant Baptist Doctrine that ultimately states that (since I've been Baptized) I will go to Hell for what I silently believe in.

     I told my mother that I didn't want to go to church. At first I said it was because I had to work. When that answer wasn't acceptable, I decided to tell her the truth--that I'm not a Christian. Hell, I was tired of lying anyway. My mother told to get out of the house and that she was sorry she asked me for anything. She originally thought highly of my wisdom, but now she sees that I am a lost fool. She said she'll never ask me anything again. (She then called me a non-Christian as though that were an insult).

     Perhaps I'm simply venting frustrations, or simply seeing if there are others like me in similar circumstances.

I do not base my wisdom, morality, or ethics on the Bible, Jesus, or any other religious book or figure.

I kind of believe there is a God, but I'm sort of apatheist about it. If there is a God, my god and your god are NOT the same.

My God has little to do with what humans see as "good" or "evil."

I am not going to live my life as if I understand the Constitution of the Universe. I shouldn't be expected to... anymore than an ant should be expected to understand the US Constitution.

Most Christians I know couldn't tell me how a microwave works. Thus, a Theist telling me about the total workings of Heaven and Earth is nothing short of arrogance.

I will do what is reasonable and in the absence of reason I'll do what feels right because that's who I am. I don't need mythological justifications. Responsibility... give it a try.

If there is a God and God gave us gifts, then reason is one of them. USE IT!!! I mean, the Bible reads like a fictitious epic. Many of the events that take place in the Bible DO NOT HAPPEN IN REAL LIFE! There is a limit to it's usefulness as a guide to life.

God did not write the Bible. Man did. Actually, many people did. It was plagiarized, edited by the Council of Nicea, ratified by First Council of Constantinople, and eventually translated to the Authorized King James version we all know and love.

My Family has now has decided that I'm simply "confused." *Sigh* when will it end? Does every non-believer have to go through this crap?

I don't choose not to believe in the Bible because it's easy. It's actually really hard. I hate when people think that people don't believe in God because it's easier. It's not. And the social pressure doesn't help.

Your family may always be "confused" but at least you're a non-Christian, which is a very positive term in my book.

Many nonbelievers do go through this (thus the thread!), and I'd like to think I'm here at least in part to help out. If you've got any questions or need to vent, feel free.

I'm in the same boat as a lot of people on here. I've grown up a conservative Christian family and I was a devout Christian for awhile. Now I'm not and I haven't told them yet. And to top it all off, I'm bisexual (*gasp*).

I don't know how to tell them. All I've told them is that I'm questioning a lot of the things I've been taught and that I want to make sure I truly believe it all, which was true at the time. My dad, at one point, asked me if I was an atheist. I said no with strong conviction because at the time, the idea of not believing in God seemed to so wrong.

I speak fluent "Christianese". I know what I will be told if I say I'm an atheist. The same things I was told when I said I don't want to do to church and when I was diagnosed with Bipolar Disorder. "God is testing you, don't let Satan tempt you, It's all part of His Plan..." My family will probably blame my disbelief on the confusion from my disorder.

Every time I think about this conversation, I start to have doubts about my doubts (if that even makes sense). I'm easily persuaded. But my new found disbelief is the only thing that makes sense to me anymore.

I'm so terrified of telling them. My family members aren't the type of Christians that preach the fire pit of hell crap. That's isn't why I'm afraid. I guess I just feel like I'm letting them down or betraying them. I've always been a goody goody that does what she's told. This is my first time being rebellious I guess you could call it.

Okay, so my rambling does have a point. I guess I'm just wondering if anyone could maybe give me some advice on how to tell my family or on how not being so afraid.

Anyway, thanks for reading.

Well I wouldn't know how to tell them, but I can give you a place to start. If there is a god, you have to admit, he made you an atheist, who are they to questions gods will.

Tough question, susangail.  I grew up in a non-religious household, so I don't really know the right answer.  Given your age, I would advise just going with the "I have a lot of doubt" approach until you are independent.  Its a lot easier to be your own person once you are no longer dependent upon your parents.  This is probably a weak answer, but its what I usually go with.  Hope things go okay --- don't stop thinking!

Cheers,
Steve

Quote from: "susangail"I'm in the same boat as a lot of people on here. I've grown up a conservative Christian family and I was a devout Christian for awhile. Now I'm not and I haven't told them yet. And to top it all off, I'm bisexual (*gasp*).

There's nothing wrong with being true to yourself. If you don't believe in god or gods, then don't believe in them. Be happy and explore what it means not to believe in god. If you enjoy sexuality with both members of your same gender and members of the opposite gender, again be happy and explore what that means to you. It's your responsibility to find out what it means for you to be happy and what it takes for you to be in a place where that's possible (physically,, emotionally, and intellectually). You get to define yourself: it's one of the perks of being atheist, or rather not being a theist.

Quote from: "susangail"I don't know how to tell them. All I've told them is that I'm questioning a lot of the things I've been taught and that I want to make sure I truly believe it all, which was true at the time. My dad, at one point, asked me if I was an atheist. I said no with strong conviction because at the time, the idea of not believing in God seemed to so wrong.

I speak fluent "Christianese". I know what I will be told if I say I'm an atheist. The same things I was told when I said I don't want to do to church and when I was diagnosed with Bipolar Disorder. "God is testing you, don't let Satan tempt you, It's all part of His Plan..." My family will probably blame my disbelief on the confusion from my disorder.

I've personally found that "atheist" is often the wrong way to describe one's self because the term is exclusionary. "I'm an atheist" describes not what one is, but what one isn't. It's like saying, "I'm a gentile". What you may want to do is find out what you ARE before breaking it to friends and family. Are you a secular humanist? A rationalist? A nihilist? All of them? None of them? Are you something new? Find some time to really ask yourself the big questions and see which answers you like. Once you think you've got a handle on what you are, then you could start with that.

Quote from: "susangail"Every time I think about this conversation, I start to have doubts about my doubts (if that even makes sense). I'm easily persuaded. But my new found disbelief is the only thing that makes sense to me anymore.

I'm so terrified of telling them. My family members aren't the type of Christians that preach the fire pit of hell crap. That's isn't why I'm afraid. I guess I just feel like I'm letting them down or betraying them. I've always been a goody goody that does what she's told. This is my first time being rebellious I guess you could call it.

Okay, so my rambling does have a point. I guess I'm just wondering if anyone could maybe give me some advice on how to tell my family or on how not being so afraid.

Anyway, thanks for reading.

The fear thing is a vestige of being in the faith. You were taught to fear everything and everyone, even yourself. It makes you easier to control. The nice thing about letting go of the unhealthy binds of faith is that hell is no longer a scary place I'll end up if I'm bad or questions my faith, and becomes just another part of mythology. Hell = Hades. It's all the same stuff, really. Eternal punishment for not obeying the church. It becomes painfully obvious what that's really about once you've left the sheep (borrowing language from how Jesus described his followers... how terribly apropos).

You don't have to tell them, either, but you should weight what it means to lie to them and have to go through the motions to the immense freedom of truth. Do you want to tear the bandaid or let it stay there and rot a bit?

Thank you so much for all your advice. Just reading it makes me feel so much better. The church makes it seem like if you reject it all, you will be alone. This forum makes me realize I'm not. Freedom is amazing.

When I look at the homepage, I would say I'm between step 3 and 4 of the transition form Theist to Atheist. But I've always questioned religion ever since I can remember. I don't remember ever believing the bible literally or entirely. For a time, I told myself that the Bible was one big metaphor. It was easier to explain that way, and it would mean the Bible isn't really a lie. But my mind is a rational one, and I can't let myself ignore the evidence around me, which points to religion as a political machine.

I guess my travels helped me a bit. My dad is Danish and I've been to Denmark often. There, church and state are almost completely separated. Compared to the US the difference is enormous. In Denmark, one would have trouble running for office under a religious banner. They have a very high percentage of atheist and agnostics. Most Danes practice very little if at all. Going to church is not normal. (You may have trouble finding one). And most see religion in the state as unethical. I say all this as if there is debate about this in Denmark. There isn't. People just don't talk about religion much (even around Christmas). No one in my Danish family even says grace. Funny, I never noticed how absent religion is from Danish society until recently. Even though I lived there for four years. It's a culture clash when you come back to the US.

My point is, if you are non-religious, the United States kind of sucks. However, not all places are religious. We are not alone.

The Kübler-Ross model (like the one I used in the OP, the 5 stages of grief) is not definite, but more of a general guide that describes the stages one CAN go through on the way to acceptance. Some people skip parts. Others don't start at the beginning. Others still will do them out of order. Some will even never reach acceptance. That's just the nature of things.

Please do read ;The Myth of Self-Esteem" and "The Reason-Driven Life" for advice on how to live an abundant life!  Ellis and Price show how we naturalists can live without God.
 I don't advertise my naturalism except on the internet. I don't hear much god-talk at least even though this is the Bible Belt.
 Good fortune!

I just finished the the video version, now entitled "Theist's Anonymous" (which makes more sense):
http://www.youtube.com/v/Zfvs20lbUQQ&fmt=1 (http://www.youtube.com/v/Zfvs20lbUQQ&fmt=1)

Enjoy.

Sweet video, Will!  Damn, I like that a lot.  The Matrix homage is cool as hell.

Thanks!

Great video Willravel.  I just subscribed to your YouTube channel.  

Thanks for the subscription! I'll have to postpone my video about gun control....

Hmmm... I like the analogy.

Here's a thought:

Perhaps like alcohol, god is best in moderation.

'cuz I drinks a bit,
JoeActor