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#21
Creationism/Intelligent Design / Re: The argument from design i...
Last post by Tank - April 21, 2025, 02:05:33 PMQuote from: billy rubin on April 19, 2025, 11:33:23 PM...Quote from: tankA watch is a perfect example of structure with intent. A snail is also a perfect example of structure with intent. But a watch is constructed as a finished entity, a snail on the other hand is a living growing organism. So there is the basic false equivalency between a 'dead' externally designed mechanism and a 'live' internally grown organism. This fundamental difference is the flaw in Paley's equivalency.
what about this?
The person who nurtures and prunes the tree expends energy to create a specific outcome. Pauly would have seen intent and implied a designer from the bonsai or a watch. As you say there is cultural interpretation here. However if you place a bonsai tree net to a natural tree in the same circumstances what are the relative probabilities of the two outcomes as the tree grows.
#22
Creationism/Intelligent Design / Re: The argument from design i...
Last post by Tank - April 21, 2025, 01:57:31 PM"can intent be identified? how would we do that?"
How has energy been expended to create the item/mechanism and has any of that energy reduced entropy in the item/mechanism? In both the watch and the snail energy has been expended to reduce/limit entropy.
How has energy been expended to create the item/mechanism and has any of that energy reduced entropy in the item/mechanism? In both the watch and the snail energy has been expended to reduce/limit entropy.
#23
Creationism/Intelligent Design / Re: The argument from design i...
Last post by Tank - April 21, 2025, 01:49:40 PMQuote from: billy rubin on April 19, 2025, 05:47:34 PMhttps://imgur.com/gallery/rube-goldberg-tvFbBHB
what about this? its a more complex wuestion than i have time to ask atm, but how do i percieve intent?
The intent here is to illicit a humorous response. So can your perception change from before you see the cartoon to after it? One can understand the transition from an initial state to a post stare and the 'mechanism' (whatever it may be) has caused that state change.
Quotewhat shared culture is necessary ti distinguish a broken rock from a paleolithic hand axe?
I'm not sure a shared culture is necessary. Being able to recognise the probability of the item existing in its broken state vs it's manufactured state is what implies intent IMO.
#24
Laid Back Lounge / Re: Elon Musk may be stepping ...
Last post by Recusant - April 20, 2025, 11:30:39 PMHis heart goes out to you. 
Huge success (or not so much--notifications of termination of employment may be retracted but for now get lost) gutting much of the apparatus of gov that he doesn't like or Trump doesn't like, or MAGA in general has an ick for. Really nasty things like climate science and other leftist gobbledegook. You know.
Competence is not a requirement, just a willingness to take a sledgehammer to government programs and people's careers. A recent example, though of course they've begun to pile up.
"Whistleblower claims DOGE triggered Russian cyberattack at US labor watchdog" | Cybernews
Could be that Musk's boy geniuses are using devices that have been infected with some effective malware. It could have been a coincidence. Or malware.
Huge success (or not so much--notifications of termination of employment may be retracted but for now get lost) gutting much of the apparatus of gov that he doesn't like or Trump doesn't like, or MAGA in general has an ick for. Really nasty things like climate science and other leftist gobbledegook. You know.
Competence is not a requirement, just a willingness to take a sledgehammer to government programs and people's careers. A recent example, though of course they've begun to pile up.
"Whistleblower claims DOGE triggered Russian cyberattack at US labor watchdog" | Cybernews
QuoteThe protected whistleblower and NLRB civil servant, Dan Berulis, said he witnessed DOGE workers harvesting "nearly the entirety" of the labor board's "critical information systems."
According to the Washington, DC-based advocate group Whistleblower Aids, DOGE's activity with the Board's IT infrastructure "has exposed the data in those systems for exploitation by foreign adversaries, posing a grave risk to national security."
In fact, the non-profit organization claims that, besides "unlawfully plundering the data of millions of Americans," it's no coincidence that a short time after DOGE accessed NLRB's systems, Russian threat actors attempted to log into the network – even using the correct login credentials.
"Within minutes of DOGE personnel creating service/user accounts in NLRB systems – someone or something within Russia appeared to attempt to log in using all of the correct credentials (eg, Usernames/Passwords) on several occasions," said Whistleblower Aid Chief Legal Counsel Andrew Bakaj.
[Continues . . .]
Could be that Musk's boy geniuses are using devices that have been infected with some effective malware. It could have been a coincidence. Or malware.
#25
Life As An Atheist / Re: Are we born atheists?
Last post by Tank - April 20, 2025, 09:30:58 AMThoughtful contribution as always 
#26
Life As An Atheist / Re: Are we born atheists?
Last post by Recusant - April 20, 2025, 05:22:47 AMIt goes to definitions. If atheist means a conscious entity that doesn't have a belief in gods, then to the extent that an infant or pre-speech rugrat can be described as conscious, they're atheist. If atheist means a conscious entity that has considered the deity proposition and rejected it, then the sprogs aren't atheist.
The Pirahã believe in spirits that can take the appearance of animals or trees or people, but have no concept of a god as such. Are they atheist? I suppose if an intrepid missionary managed to corner some of them then managed to teach them his language or learn theirs, then proceeded to preach the good news, he might find some takers, but probably not. The Christian god certainly isn't going to show himself in the form of a jungle creature or anything else that's clearly alive for that matter. Given their accustomed thought process (at least as understood by those who've met them) they would most likely take a Laplacean* approach--they have no need for such a hypothesis.
In this narrative, I suppose you could dispute whether the Pirahã pre-missionary are atheists, but I think I would say that they are. Their culture has existed probably for a few thousand years, yet they've never created a deity to worship. Apparently their grasp of reality is sufficient without the cloying magic sauce of gods.
Taking it back to the baby question, in my opinion the baby doesn't have enough grasp of reality to be considered an atheist unless somebody is going to insist on a narrow "lack of belief" definition.
*Yes I know that it's possibly apocryphal but it is attributed to Laplace, so I'm going with that.
The Pirahã believe in spirits that can take the appearance of animals or trees or people, but have no concept of a god as such. Are they atheist? I suppose if an intrepid missionary managed to corner some of them then managed to teach them his language or learn theirs, then proceeded to preach the good news, he might find some takers, but probably not. The Christian god certainly isn't going to show himself in the form of a jungle creature or anything else that's clearly alive for that matter. Given their accustomed thought process (at least as understood by those who've met them) they would most likely take a Laplacean* approach--they have no need for such a hypothesis.
In this narrative, I suppose you could dispute whether the Pirahã pre-missionary are atheists, but I think I would say that they are. Their culture has existed probably for a few thousand years, yet they've never created a deity to worship. Apparently their grasp of reality is sufficient without the cloying magic sauce of gods.
Taking it back to the baby question, in my opinion the baby doesn't have enough grasp of reality to be considered an atheist unless somebody is going to insist on a narrow "lack of belief" definition.
*Yes I know that it's possibly apocryphal but it is attributed to Laplace, so I'm going with that.
#27
Creationism/Intelligent Design / Re: The argument from design i...
Last post by billy rubin - April 19, 2025, 11:33:23 PMhere it is
^^^this is a designed machine. can its design be detected? how?
can intent be identified? how would we do that?
i can see how a crystal is not a designed thing, but i do NOT see how i can detect design or not-design. remove all the subjective thoughts and just look at the crystal, at paley's pocket watch, and atthe rube goldberg device above.
how do we identify intent?
what about this?
^^^this is a designed machine. can its design be detected? how?
can intent be identified? how would we do that?
i can see how a crystal is not a designed thing, but i do NOT see how i can detect design or not-design. remove all the subjective thoughts and just look at the crystal, at paley's pocket watch, and atthe rube goldberg device above.
how do we identify intent?
Quote from: tankA watch is a perfect example of structure with intent. A snail is also a perfect example of structure with intent. But a watch is constructed as a finished entity, a snail on the other hand is a living growing organism. So there is the basic false equivalency between a 'dead' externally designed mechanism and a 'live' internally grown organism. This fundamental difference is the flaw in Paley's equivalency.
what about this?
#29
Creationism/Intelligent Design / Re: The argument from design i...
Last post by Dark Lightning - April 19, 2025, 05:55:54 PMQuote from: Tank on April 19, 2025, 04:02:56 PMDenial, yes. Apologetics...means making excuses instead.Quote from: Dark Lightning on April 19, 2025, 03:40:38 AMMy take is from recent xtians. They can't conceive of how a human being could be in their current configuration without someone designing them. Adam and Eve as a start is the problem. Figure whatever mud or ocean or combination thereof held myriad chemicals what somehow formed into molecules and then into single-cell organisms. Religious people tend to equate abiogenesis with evolution, a basic misunderstanding. The vastness of those reactions that gradually lead to multicellular life is mind-boggling, but ignored for the creation story. Some religious person should come in and explain it...
And even if they can grasp what you say they are obliged to deny it.
#30
Creationism/Intelligent Design / Re: The argument from design i...
Last post by billy rubin - April 19, 2025, 05:47:34 PMhttps://imgur.com/gallery/rube-goldberg-tvFbBHB
what about this? its a more complex wuestion than i have time to ask atm, but how do i percieve intent?
what shared culture is necessary ti distinguish a broken rock from a paleolithic hand axe?
what about this? its a more complex wuestion than i have time to ask atm, but how do i percieve intent?
what shared culture is necessary ti distinguish a broken rock from a paleolithic hand axe?