This is basically a vent, but also wondering what others would have said.
A cousin dropped by with his four-year-old son to pick up some furniture I was giving away. I entertained the tyke while he loaded up the car, and then we chatted for a few minutes about kids and school and whatnot. He started saying that schools didn't teach everything kids need to know, how parents need to pay attention to what they're learning, etc, and teach them moral values at home . . .. like how his son is inherently sinful. My eyes glazed over for a second, I'm sure, while I digested the image of this father teaching the intelligent, happy little boy playing at my feet that he is evil. I didn't know what to say . . . certainly anything I felt like saying would've been inappropriate in front of a small child. Simply, it made me very sad.
Quote from: Dobermonster on July 12, 2012, 01:22:26 AM
This is basically a vent, but also wondering what others would have said.
A cousin dropped by with his four-year-old son to pick up some furniture I was giving away. I entertained the tyke while he loaded up the car, and then we chatted for a few minutes about kids and school and whatnot. He started saying that schools didn't teach everything kids need to know, how parents need to pay attention to what they're learning, etc, and teach them moral values at home . . .. like how his son is inherently sinful. My eyes glazed over for a second, I'm sure, while I digested the image of this father teaching the intelligent, happy little boy playing at my feet that he is evil. I didn't know what to say . . . certainly anything I felt like saying would've been inappropriate in front of a small child. Simply, it made me very sad.
It is extremely sad. Kids are so utterly defenceless and the potential power of parents to damage them is almost limitless. There is nothing you can usefully say in such a situation.
It's better just to be a somewhat civilised animal, you save on psych fees.
That is so depressing....
How could someone think an innocent child is sinful or evil if they haven't done anything? I..just--- religious extremist having lots of children are what i am seriously afraid of. And i feel so, so bad for that child-- because he'll probably not break the chain. Or if he does, he will be damaged most likely.
That is extremely extremely sad. :'( I can't imagine looking at my sweet boy (also four) and feeling any desire to teach him he is inherently bad.
I never got why people loved to tell their children this. In my mind, this would mean that I should do more things against the rules because hey, if I am already going to Hell I might as well have fun.
I feel that the best approach is to give people a reputation to live up to rather than to tell them that they suck.
Child abuse is a punishable offense.
Quote from: Icarus on July 12, 2012, 05:24:05 AM
Child abuse is a punishable offense.
Unfortunately religion loons don't think of this as abuse. :'(
Quote from: Stevil on July 12, 2012, 04:18:53 AM
I feel that the best approach is to give people a reputation to live up to rather than to tell them that they suck.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure the "you suck" approach is not the best motivational tool.
In the past I have made the directly challenging but reasonable statement that "millions of intelligent people disagree", and leave it at that. The ball is left squarely in the court of the parent to try to challenge the fact and the child is hopefully left with lingering questions of their own.
This suggestion is brought to you by the same person who approaches cycling children in the street and asks them loudly "why do you wear a helmet when mummy/daddy doesn't?" (just a little bug-bear of mine).
The religion of boundless love brands the kids before they are old enough to understand - but they are able to pick up the disapproval.
I remember the same teachings in catechism class. I was more interested in other subjects at the time, but god was just kind of something that existed. Much like the oak tree in the back yard. I remember thinking that god was inside the oak tree. I loved sitting under that tree. Still do. As for being inherently sinful, I felt bad about it. It's hard for me to remember the fear I had towards god. In religin, it is often the reverence that is remembered. The fear tends to exist in the moment, but it hardly stays.
Quote from: RenegeReversi on July 14, 2012, 04:27:09 PM
I remember the same teachings in catechism class. I was more interested in other subjects at the time, but god was just kind of something that existed. Much like the oak tree in the back yard. I remember thinking that god was inside the oak tree. I loved sitting under that tree. Still do. As for being inherently sinful, I felt bad about it. It's hard for me to remember the fear I had towards god. In religin, it is often the reverence that is remembered. The fear tends to exist in the moment, but it hardly stays.
I don't remember fear so much as guilt - to the point that I would be apologizing to God for even having sinful thoughts. Puberty in particular was not fun.
It is angry atheist territory, I'm not wearing my happy hat here.
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on July 12, 2012, 01:49:29 PM
Yeah, I'm pretty sure the "you suck" approach is not the best motivational tool.
Which is equivalent to "you are born a sinner, you must atone"
Quote from: Sweetdeath on July 12, 2012, 02:48:46 AM
That is so depressing....
How could someone think an innocent child is sinful or evil if they haven't done anything? I..just--- religious extremist having lots of children are what i am seriously afraid of. And i feel so, so bad for that child-- because he'll probably not break the chain. Or if he does, he will be damaged most likely.
I wouldn't necessarily say damaged. I was raised Christian. My parents and preachers told me the same things. There are a lot of beautiful things in life that I feel I would have experienced in different ways had I not been, and perhaps with a different view of the world I would have enjoyed life more for those three decades. However, I don't feel damaged as a result. There are a lot of Sundays I wish I could have back, though lol.
Quote from: dobermonsterA cousin dropped by with his four-year-old son to pick up some furniture I was giving away. I entertained the tyke while he loaded up the car, and then we chatted for a few minutes about kids and school and whatnot. He started saying that schools didn't teach everything kids need to know, how parents need to pay attention to what they're learning, etc, and teach them moral values at home . . .. like how his son is inherently sinful. My eyes glazed over for a second, I'm sure, while I digested the image of this father teaching the intelligent, happy little boy playing at my feet that he is evil. I didn't know what to say . . . certainly anything I felt like saying would've been inappropriate in front of a small child. Simply, it made me very sad.
Don't focus on the dad. Focus on the kid. Support him, praise him, help him to feel good about himself. Kids are amazingly resiliant. Help him down the road of positive self image.
Quote from: technolud on July 15, 2012, 01:49:26 AM
Quote from: dobermonsterA cousin dropped by with his four-year-old son to pick up some furniture I was giving away. I entertained the tyke while he loaded up the car, and then we chatted for a few minutes about kids and school and whatnot. He started saying that schools didn't teach everything kids need to know, how parents need to pay attention to what they're learning, etc, and teach them moral values at home . . .. like how his son is inherently sinful. My eyes glazed over for a second, I'm sure, while I digested the image of this father teaching the intelligent, happy little boy playing at my feet that he is evil. I didn't know what to say . . . certainly anything I felt like saying would've been inappropriate in front of a small child. Simply, it made me very sad.
Don't focus on the dad. Focus on the kid. Support him, praise him, help him to feel good about himself. Kids are amazingly resiliant. Help him down the road of positive self image.
They live far away, I hardly ever see them. He seems like a smart little guy, and I don't doubt his parents are very encouraging in other ways. Hopefully those things will deter any potential guilt or fear baggage.
Apart from the issue of whether one should actually teach a child that he is "inherently sinful," Christian theologian Reinhold Niebuhr said that original sin is one of the only factually verifiable claims that Christianity makes. While I disagree that "original sin" in its typical presentation is historically verifiable, would you not agree that all of us have the capacity for evil/bad behavior, and that unless formed in some manner, we are more likely to go down a path of destruction than of good? You don't have to teach a child to be "bad," so to speak. Take a group of 3 year-olds and put them in a room with no adult supervision, and pretty soon you will have a Lord of the Flies situation. Someone's going to get hurt.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 22, 2012, 02:29:20 PM
Apart from the issue of whether one should actually teach a child that he is "inherently sinful," Christian theologian Reinhold Niebuhr said that original sin is one of the only factually verifiable claims that Christianity makes. While I disagree that "original sin" in its typical presentation is historically verifiable, would you not agree that all of us have the capacity for evil/bad behavior, and that unless formed in some manner, we are more likely to go down a path of destruction than of good? You don't have to teach a child to be "bad," so to speak. Take a group of 3 year-olds and put them in a room with no adult supervision, and pretty soon you will have a Lord of the Flies situation. Someone's going to get hurt.
This is a huge topic for me and one that I could fill an entire forum with, but you can breathe a sigh of relief as I promise that I'll keep it short!
With the notable exception of those individuals who are "badly" hardwired, I do not believe that any human being born is inherently good or evil. What we are is a biological computer (just like any other animal) which is created with hardwired ROM (instinct or Id if that sounds better) and we are continually programmed from creation by our environment.
One of the reasons that I have a hard time with laying blame on people for the acts that they commit is that we don't choose our programming, our environment does. Unless of course there is some sort of physical trauma to the brain which goes back to bad hardwiring.
That's not to say that I don't believe in incarceration and to some extent capital punishment (you don't rehabilitate a mad dog, you shoot it), I just feel pity rather than hatred for the folks that these measures must be applied to. With the exception of bad wiring, monsters aren't born, they're created afterward.
Telling a child that they are inherently evil over time runs the risk of
teaching that child that they are inherently evil.
That's just a personal opinion, my three college courses in psych + 6 bucks will get me a coffee at Starbucks.
Agreed that you should not tell a child that he is inherently sinful, as that creates a self-image that may prove to be a self-fulfilling prophecy. My point is simply that, in the complete absence of socialization from an adult, a child is likely to tend toward behavior that would be considered to be "bad" in most social settings. We need to be taught to be "good." We don't arrive at that naturally. That's my limited argument.
Quote from: Non Quixote on July 22, 2012, 03:08:33 PM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 22, 2012, 02:29:20 PM
Apart from the issue of whether one should actually teach a child that he is "inherently sinful," Christian theologian Reinhold Niebuhr said that original sin is one of the only factually verifiable claims that Christianity makes. While I disagree that "original sin" in its typical presentation is historically verifiable, would you not agree that all of us have the capacity for evil/bad behavior, and that unless formed in some manner, we are more likely to go down a path of destruction than of good? You don't have to teach a child to be "bad," so to speak. Take a group of 3 year-olds and put them in a room with no adult supervision, and pretty soon you will have a Lord of the Flies situation. Someone's going to get hurt.
This is a huge topic for me and one that I could fill an entire forum with, but you can breathe a sigh of relief as I promise that I'll keep it short!
With the notable exception of those individuals who are "badly" hardwired, I do not believe that any human being born is inherently good or evil. What we are is a biological computer (just like any other animal) which is created with hardwired ROM (instinct or Id if that sounds better) and we are continually programmed from creation by our environment.
One of the reasons that I have a hard time with laying blame on people for the acts that they commit is that we don't choose our programming, our environment does. Unless of course there is some sort of physical trauma to the brain which goes back to bad hardwiring.
That's not to say that I don't believe in incarceration and to some extent capital punishment (you don't rehabilitate a mad dog, you shoot it), I just feel pity rather than hatred for the folks that these measures must be applied to. With the exception of bad wiring, monsters aren't born, they're created afterward.
Telling a child that they are inherently evil over time runs the risk of teaching that child that they are inherently evil.
That's just a personal opinion, my three college courses in psych + 6 bucks will get me a coffee at Starbucks.
Presumably you'd accept that someone born with "bad" hardwiring is equally not responsible for their actions. The net result is that logically nobody is ultimately responsible for their actions, which is the position I take. I don't think it is a position which can be refuted logically, but people resist it because they recoil from its implications. It doesn't mean that a rational society shouldn't punish criminals; penalising them may deter them and incarceration may also protect us from dangerous people. Incarceration which rehabilitates criminals might be also seen as a worthwhile investment but this rarely occurs in real life. There is no doubt that the criminal law also serves to satisfy the notion of just dessert , which is probably just a fancy name for the desire for revenge and fulfils a necessary social function in that respect.
I'd argue incidentally that the interaction between genes and environment is rather more complex than you depict it. The environment can switch on or switch off genes which then determine how we respond to our environmental influences and so on in an unimaginably complex two- handed process.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 22, 2012, 02:29:20 PM
would you not agree that all of us have the capacity for evil/bad behavior
There is no such thing as evil/bad behavior.
We all act the way we act because we exist, are animals that desire survival, and in particular for us we are human. Their is no inherent sin in humanity, none of us are capable of sin, what is sin anyway but an imagined concept of going against an imaginary god.
There is no god, no devil, no angels, no demons, no metaphysical soul. We are the product of physical laws which we cannot change or break. We have no choice but to act the way we do, because that is what the laws of physics dictate.
Some people act in a way that is "dangerous" to society and others look to remove that danger. "evil/bad" No!, Dangerous Yes!
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 22, 2012, 03:26:28 PM
Agreed that you should not tell a child that he is inherently sinful, as that creates a self-image that may prove to be a self-fulfilling prophecy. My point is simply that, in the complete absence of socialization from an adult, a child is likely to tend toward behavior that would be considered to be "bad" in most social settings. We need to be taught to be "good." We don't arrive at that naturally. That's my limited argument.
Most animals go through stages of maturity , dependency, adolescence, maturity. The values and behaviours adult teach to their offspring are often replaced by reason and experience as the child grows up. That is why the teenage years are seen as so rebellious.
Quote from: Stevil on July 22, 2012, 08:08:20 PM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 22, 2012, 02:29:20 PM
would you not agree that all of us have the capacity for evil/bad behavior
There is no such thing as evil/bad behavior.
We all act the way we act because we exist, are animals that desire survival, and in particular for us we are human. Their is no inherent sin in humanity, none of us are capable of sin, what is sin anyway but an imagined concept of going against an imaginary god.
There is no god, no devil, no angels, no demons, no metaphysical soul. We are the product of physical laws which we cannot change or break. We have no choice but to act the way we do, because that is what the laws of physics dictate.
Some people act in a way that is "dangerous" to society and others look to remove that danger. "evil/bad" No!, Dangerous Yes!
I agree.
that's why such a black/white way of thinking is dangerous. Saying "the police officer are good guys" automatically assumes they cannot do any wrong. But we all know how many corrupted police officers there are, involved in drugs, gun rings or worse.
Quote from: Stevil on July 22, 2012, 08:08:20 PM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 22, 2012, 02:29:20 PM
would you not agree that all of us have the capacity for evil/bad behavior
There is no such thing as evil/bad behavior.
We all act the way we act because we exist, are animals that desire survival, and in particular for us we are human. Their is no inherent sin in humanity, none of us are capable of sin, what is sin anyway but an imagined concept of going against an imaginary god.
There is no god, no devil, no angels, no demons, no metaphysical soul. We are the product of physical laws which we cannot change or break. We have no choice but to act the way we do, because that is what the laws of physics dictate.
Some people act in a way that is "dangerous" to society and others look to remove that danger. "evil/bad" No!, Dangerous Yes!
Quite so. From an evolutionary perspective, it makes sense for human beings to treat other as agents who are responsible for their own actions. However as human beings we are also capable of self- awareness and of transcending our genetic programming and seeing that the blame game is precisely that.
I imagine that if something is considered as "bad" , then for all intents and purpose that characterization guides action in the stead of experience. Never underestimate the ability of a belief to override actions of a more... animalistic affectation.