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Why Creationism Shouldn't Be Taught in Schools

Started by Squid, January 21, 2010, 01:28:00 AM

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Recusant

Quote from: "Filanthropod"...Go on, finish the job, gas me.

I won't presume to speak for Whitney, but you might be interested to know that most often, as soon as somebody is known to have created a sockpuppet on this forum they are out of here.  The fact that you're still here making fatuous posts like the one above means that you've been given more slack than most.  The persecution card you're trying to play falls flat in light of this.  But keep trying, I'm sure you can get yourself banned if it's what you want.  It will be because of your own behavior though, rather than an imagined personal vendetta on the part of the site owner.
"Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I hold in veneration — courage, clear thinking, honesty, fairness, and above all, love of the truth."
— H. L. Mencken


Thumpalumpacus

Quote from: "Filanthropod"Fair enough but I think it's pretty self righteous to dictate what is and isn't taught. Just because you disagree with a point of view, that doesn't mean that others don't have a right to know about that point of view. It's censorship. I think you're getting confused, because this isn't even about what is true or not, it is about freedom to know what other people think, which is why you're missing the point. And that's my opinion, which of course I have a right to have. Unless of course you'd also like to see a world in which people only have the "right" thoughts.

Given that I am a tax-paying father of a 12-year-old boy, I have every right to voice my opinion on what should comprise the curriculum at his school.  It is your misfortune that the vast majority of people realize that teaching nonsense is no way to run a school.

Here in America, we accommodate the taste some have for myth and conformity by a fabulous little invention called "Sunday School", where those who wish to pretend that there is a god who cares about this universe can gather together to learn about how dinosaurs and men coexisted, and so forth.

ID is plainly bogus science, in that it is driven by an a priori notion.  Simply because many aren't scientifically literate enough to understand that does not mean they have the right to force their ignorance on my son.  You want it taught?  It already is, in the private sector, where such nonsense belongs.
Illegitimi non carborundum.

Will

Quote from: "Filanthropod"Oh dear. Looks like there's an echo in here. I've already said that the most common views should be made available to people.
Are you suggesting facts are somehow democratic? I must respectfully disagree. As an example, a majority of people in the United States, as of 2007, believed that Iraq was responsible for 9/11. Why did they believe this incorrect information? They were lied to and thus formed an incorrect understanding of the facts. What if creationists (who are in the minority), are being mislead (intentionally or unintentionally)? Shouldn't there be some objective judgment of the facts before they are presented to young people, people who may not yet have the critical thinking skills to figure it out for themselves? I certainly think so. The last thing I want is untruths to be taught to people who are supposed to be learning how the world really works. I'm sure you wouldn't want your children to be taught lies in place of truths.
I want bad people to look forward to and celebrate the day I die, because if they don't, I'm not living up to my potential.

Whitney

Quote from: "Filanthropod"Oh dear. Looks like there's an echo in here. I've already said that the most common views should be made available to people. So that they can make up their own mind, rather than be dictated to by a self righteous self proclaimed elite as to what is true and what isn't. And Whitney, I know what you're doing. You're going through all the threads in which I'm posting, making a comment here and there, and trying to stir up a little squabble between you and I, because you're just itching to get rid of another theist. Some people call that fishing, although there's another word for it. Go on, you know you want to ban me. You want to keep the masterforum "pure", don't you. Go on, finish the job, gas me.

Since you want to be banned...I'm giving you ban for a week.

If I wanted a "pure" forum (as retarded as that idea is) I wouldn't have a theist moderator and would just make a no theists rule and ban any that sign up.

Squid

Quote from: "Filanthropod"I believe in evolution of the physical body, but I think people should be told about all the views which are out there, and then they can make up their own mind. By preventing people from knowing what others think, all you're doing is effectively forcing them to believe as you do. Also, people need to know what others think about different things, at the very least simply for the sake of knowing.

Public schools aren't the venue to discuss the "make up their own mind" issues, that's what colleges are for.

Martin TK

"Fair enough but I think it's pretty self righteous to dictate what is and isn't taught. Just because you disagree with a point of view, that doesn't mean that others don't have a right to know about that point of view. It's censorship. I think you're getting confused, because this isn't even about what is true or not, it is about freedom to know what other people think, which is why you're missing the point. And that's my opinion, which of course I have a right to have. Unless of course you'd also like to see a world in which people only have the "right" thoughts.Filanthropod
Padawan Learner"

Ok, here's an idea, IF we have to teach, by your reason, creationism in school, then Churches have to teach evolution in Sunday School.  The problem with creationism is simply that is has NO basis in scientific fact.  There isn't any consensus among top scientists in the world who would agree that creationism has any merit at all, much less enough merit to introduce it to a school wide curriculum.  We don't teach the "science" of Santa Claus in schools, we don't teach fairies in school, and we can't prove that either of them do not exist any more than we can not prove that a tea pot is out in space, orbiting the sun; but we can be pretty sure that non of them do exist any more than god or creationism exist.

The ONLY factual evidence of creation is in the bible, and the bible is NOT a reliable scientific or historical work.  Now, I know that many, well meaning, theist scientists have attempted to create a science that explains the possibility of creation, but NONE so far have held up to scrutiny.  If we are going to introduce Creationism in schools, we might as well introduce the "flatearth" theory as possible fact, along with vampires, zombies, the tooth fairy, and big foot.  Some day they might all be proven as fact. :hmm:
"Ever since the 19th Century, Theologians have made an overwhelming case that the gospels are NOT reliable accounts of what happened in the history of the real world"   Richard Dawkins - The God Delusion

Martin TK

"Public schools aren't the venue to discuss the "make up their own mind" issues, that's what colleges are for."

Squid, this is the problem with Theists, they want their cake and eat it, too.  They want government to stay out of the church's affairs, they want to talk about exposing children to different ideas, and yet in every Christian Church in America, countless children are being brain washed into the "doctrine of faith" to believe there is actually great value in accepting the whole of the Christian Belief on faith alone, without question.

If you were to introduce the idea of allowing children to be reared in a neutral environment until they were old enough to make the decision to believe or not to believe, you would have a revolution at hand from the Christian Right.  But, we know that until a child reaches a certain age, he/she is not able to decide for themselves if they want to be a Christian, a Muslim, a Hindu, or an Atheist, and so, by default they are being subjected to systematic idoctination against their will into a belief system, that no matter how strong the evidence against it might be, they will dogmatically hang onto the religion of their parents throughout their lives.  That is unless they are strong willed or bright enough to grow out of it, and realize that it's all hocus pocus.
"Ever since the 19th Century, Theologians have made an overwhelming case that the gospels are NOT reliable accounts of what happened in the history of the real world"   Richard Dawkins - The God Delusion

Filanthropod

Quote from: "Martin TK""Fair enough but I think it's pretty self righteous to dictate what is and isn't taught. Just because you disagree with a point of view, that doesn't mean that others don't have a right to know about that point of view. It's censorship. I think you're getting confused, because this isn't even about what is true or not, it is about freedom to know what other people think, which is why you're missing the point. And that's my opinion, which of course I have a right to have. Unless of course you'd also like to see a world in which people only have the "right" thoughts.Filanthropod
Padawan Learner"

Ok, here's an idea, IF we have to teach, by your reason, creationism in school, then Churches have to teach evolution in Sunday School.  The problem with creationism is simply that is has NO basis in scientific fact.  There isn't any consensus among top scientists in the world who would agree that creationism has any merit at all, much less enough merit to introduce it to a school wide curriculum.  We don't teach the "science" of Santa Claus in schools, we don't teach fairies in school, and we can't prove that either of them do not exist any more than we can not prove that a tea pot is out in space, orbiting the sun; but we can be pretty sure that non of them do exist any more than god or creationism exist.

The ONLY factual evidence of creation is in the bible, and the bible is NOT a reliable scientific or historical work.  Now, I know that many, well meaning, theist scientists have attempted to create a science that explains the possibility of creation, but NONE so far have held up to scrutiny.  If we are going to introduce Creationism in schools, we might as well introduce the "flatearth" theory as possible fact, along with vampires, zombies, the tooth fairy, and big foot.  Some day they might all be proven as fact. :hmm:

Hold on a second, where did you get the idea that I said that creationism has to be taught? I'm saying that it's best for all the common views to be taught. I don't really care whether or not a view is true, or has any evidence, or any of that, the point I'm making is that people should make up their own minds instead of being dictated to by both atheists and religious people alike, and to achieve that, the most common views being taught is the best way. History is full of liars, but history is still taught, and people learn from history. Many subjects feature incorrect information but the subject is still taught in a way that includes it, in order than people can have access to all views. Just because you don't believe in god that doesn't mean that people should not be aware of all the common views, both or and against, god's existence. In fact, if right now you had your wish and all the things that you disagree with (and I don't care what the reason is), weren't taught, it would harm your cause. It would backfire. Why? Because over time, people would forget completely about various ideas about god, and, over time, they would surface again just like they did the very first day that any human had any thought about a god, and as you know, it's only human nature that sooner or later, people will believe in god. In trying to destroy the whole idea, it would simply start again. So the best thing to do is to allow the teaching of all views. And then, if you want your say, you can have it, just like anyone else. Anything else is dictatorship, which would make you just as bad as a religious nutter. I'm not sure that you understand the distinction between what you're saying and what I'm saying.

Hi whitney, I see you spying on me.

Argie

Interesting debate, and very much I agree with those that think that the so called ID should not be taught as science, specially after a judicial rulling that clearly states that ID is NOT science... a very elegant way of calling it pseudoscience.  Public education and public schools should be free of all religious influence.

TheJackel

They can teach Creationism in Science if they can show me how Consciousness is designed and created into existence, or how existence itself can be designed and created ;)

Martin TK

[quote="Filanthropod
Hold on a second, where did you get the idea that I said that creationism has to be taught? I'm saying that it's best for all the common views to be taught. I don't really care whether or not a view is true, or has any evidence, or any of that, the point I'm making is that people should make up their own minds instead of being dictated to by both atheists and religious people alike, and to achieve that, the most common views being taught is the best way. History is full of liars, but history is still taught, and people learn from history. Many subjects feature incorrect information but the subject is still taught in a way that includes it, in order than people can have access to all views. Just because you don't believe in god that doesn't mean that people should not be aware of all the common views, both or and against, god's existence. In fact, if right now you had your wish and all the things that you disagree with (and I don't care what the reason is), weren't taught, it would harm your cause. It would backfire. Why? Because over time, people would forget completely about various ideas about god, and, over time, they would surface again just like they did the very first day that any human had any thought about a god, and as you know, it's only human nature that sooner or later, people will believe in god. In trying to destroy the whole idea, it would simply start again. So the best thing to do is to allow the teaching of all views. And then, if you want your say, you can have it, just like anyone else. Anything else is dictatorship, which would make you just as bad as a religious nutter. I'm not sure that you understand the distinction between what you're saying and what I'm saying.

Hi whitney, I see you spying on me.[/quote]

OK, but you are advocating that it be taught if you are advocating that ALL common views be taught, as creationism is a current view, albeit wrong.  See, schools are for teaching FACTS, not fiction, certainly NOT in a science class anyway.  I go back to my original statement that to teach anything religious in school is akin to teaching science in church, that's NOT what schools or churches are in the business of doing.

The very idea of teaching "both sides" in school wouldn't work from the simple fact that we live, at least in America, where religion has been given a "do not question" card and in order to teach both sides, you have to question religion and god, and that simply would not work in a country where the Religious Right has such a hold on government.  I do not see where teaching all views, where religion is concerned, at the K-12 level would be of any value.  Now, if a person wants all views, then once they are old enough for college, I would recommend that several religion courses be taken, including philosophy, logic, religions of the world, etc.

I do not see public education as the forum for teaching or exposing our children to religion, one way or the other, besides you would have diametrically opposed sides fighting over content, context, and delivery, unlike anything seen before.
"Ever since the 19th Century, Theologians have made an overwhelming case that the gospels are NOT reliable accounts of what happened in the history of the real world"   Richard Dawkins - The God Delusion

Thumpalumpacus

I don't have a problem teaching ID in a science class, so long as it is taught for what it is: an example of sloppy critical thinking, the dangers of a priori thinking, and how to not conduct honest science.
Illegitimi non carborundum.

Tank

Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"I don't have a problem teaching ID in a science class, so long as it is taught for what it is: an example of sloppy critical thinking, the dangers of a priori thinking, and how to not conduct honest science.
Yes, as an example of what science isn't!
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

Martin TK

Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"I don't have a problem teaching ID in a science class, so long as it is taught for what it is: an example of sloppy critical thinking, the dangers of a priori thinking, and how to not conduct honest science.

Now, on that I totally agree......
"Ever since the 19th Century, Theologians have made an overwhelming case that the gospels are NOT reliable accounts of what happened in the history of the real world"   Richard Dawkins - The God Delusion

TheJackel

Quote from: "Martin TK"
Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"I don't have a problem teaching ID in a science class, so long as it is taught for what it is: an example of sloppy critical thinking, the dangers of a priori thinking, and how to not conduct honest science.

Now, on that I totally agree......

+ 500 trillion to that! (one for every living cell in my body) :P