I've a quick question for my fellow rationalists on here: how do you remain so in the face of incredible disrespect? Whenever the subject of religion/prayer/theism is brought up with a Christian, it seems they are entirely dismissive and condescending when you're trying to have an actual conversation. Most recently:
-"Prayer changes things!"
-"A pair of hands at work will accomplish more than a thousand folded in prayer."
-"We are all ignorant, just on different subjects."
I don't know why, but this type of remark really burns me. After this little transaction I stated that she was being condescending, and she didn't object at all. The premise that anyone who doesn't agree with you is ignorant is typically laughable, but the irony was (apparently) lost on her.
Furthermore, I want to state that I don't lash out or participate in militant atheism, and I never resort to violence or verbal abuse. Usually I'm like a puppy... made out of bunnies... but I believe the dismissive attitude is inexcusable and it just makes me livid. Any idea as to why this is so frustrating? And how do you guys deal with it (if you find it frustrating as well)?
Quote from: MinnesotaMike on August 27, 2011, 07:02:44 PM
I've a quick question for my fellow rationalists on here: how do you remain so in the face of incredible disrespect? Whenever the subject of religion/prayer/theism is brought up with a Christian, it seems they are entirely dismissive and condescending when you're trying to have an actual conversation. Most recently:
-"Prayer changes things!"
-"A pair of hands at work will accomplish more than a thousand folded in prayer."
-"We are all ignorant, just on different subjects."
I don't know why, but this type of remark really burns me. After this little transaction I stated that she was being condescending, and she didn't object at all. The premise that anyone who doesn't agree with you is ignorant is typically laughable, but the irony was (apparently) lost on her.
Furthermore, I want to state that I don't lash out or participate in militant atheism, and I never resort to violence or verbal abuse. Usually I'm like a puppy... made out of bunnies... but I believe the dismissive attitude is inexcusable and it just makes me livid. Any idea as to why this is so frustrating? And how do you guys deal with it (if you find it frustrating as well)?
Sometimes, but I've gotten used to it. One way to look at it is to put yourself in their shoes.
They
know that the almighty creator of heaven and earth is on their side. This almighty being became a person here on earth for the express purpose of saving them from eternal damnation. He cares deeply for each and every one of them. Many of them (especially modern Protestants in the US) believe that they have a
personal relationship with that almighty being. It's pretty heady stuff. I think it would be hard to really believe these things and not be dismissive and condescending toward people who thought that their mere human understanding, unaided by Jesus/YHVH/Holy Ghost, is better, or more realistic, or (scoff)
superior to having a personal relationship with the almighty.
So you know that such a being exists, and that they love you and have made the effort to tell you what you need to know (scripture) and have actually allowed themselves to suffer and die for your sake, and that you are insignificant in comparison. Yet some other person who is just as insignificant is trying to deny these facts. They don't have a god on their side. In fact, the only reason they deny the truth is because they've been deceived by other people or by the devil or one of his minions. They just don't know it or don't want to accept it. Actually, deep down they know (because, really, everyone knows) that the god exists, but are too stubborn and too willful and too far gone in their denial and acceptance of the deceit of the devil to admit that they know it. Why would you respect somebody like that? The Bible tells you to love them, and you try to do that (in a pitying sort of way, I imagine) but it doesn't tell you to respect them. They have fallen into the traps laid for them by the devil; that doesn't deserve respect. I imagine that it's hard not to be smug when you know all these things and some deluded fool tries to act like
they know what's going on. The things that you,
MinnesotaMike, are "ignorant" of, according to the person you were talking with, are the most important things of all. Yet you prattle on about "A pair of hands at work will accomplish more than a thousand folded in prayer." That actually is pretty disrespectful in itself, if seen from their point of view.
Bad manners know no bounds. Condescending people come in all shapes and sizes, Christopher Hitchins springs to mind right alongside Ken Ham. I know it's difficult to retain a sense of equilibrium when faced with the behaviour of a minority of people who simply live inside their own heads and consider all around them stupid. There is a story about the Buddha. He was sitting under a tree meditating when a man came up and started rudely remonstrating about something or other. The Buddha ignored him until eventually the rude man asked the Buddha why he was being ignored. The Buddha replied along the liners of "I would not accept rotten melons from you so why should I accept your rudeness." Thus showing that the man's behaviour was the man's problem and that he was not bound to react to him the way he wanted.
So take a leaf out of the Buddha's book and simply leave the rotten fruit where it lies.
Rotten fruit is not so easy to reject when thrown.
Quote from: MinnesotaMike on August 27, 2011, 09:03:25 PM
Rotten fruit is not so easy to reject when thrown.
:D Learn to dodge!
Coincidentally I get alot of this condescending attitudes from non theists as well. Everyone is entitled to be a douche I suppose.
Quote from: Medusa on August 27, 2011, 10:27:57 PM
Coincidentally I get alot of this condescending attitudes from non theists as well. Everyone is entitled to be a douche I suppose.
Yep. But don't abuse the privilage (https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg710.imageshack.us%2Fimg710%2F9922%2Frimshot.gif&hash=77d5ac078a921ed7ff6be629eed7a4f2ac98bb10)
Quote from: Tank on August 27, 2011, 11:01:45 PM
Quote from: Medusa on August 27, 2011, 10:27:57 PM
Coincidentally I get alot of this condescending attitudes from non theists as well. Everyone is entitled to be a douche I suppose.
Yep. But don't abuse the privilage (https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg710.imageshack.us%2Fimg710%2F9922%2Frimshot.gif&hash=77d5ac078a921ed7ff6be629eed7a4f2ac98bb10)
Women are allowed that once a month. Or we stink.
:o
I don't really run into that situation. I think that there are situations where returning a rude but true comment is called for.
Quote from: Whitney on August 28, 2011, 12:31:24 AM
I don't really run into that situation. I think that there are situations where returning a rude but true comment is called for.
I do my best to refrain from being rude; if they aren't willing to play ball I won't continue. It just bothers me when they feel divinely justified to be less than human.
I find that a healthy dose of passive aggressiveness and sarcasm usually does the trick. It's especially fun with the real dumb ones because you can make them look like complete buffoons while letting them think they're getting through to you.
It's like being an ninja-asshole.
Oddly I'm direct aggressive in my talk to poeple. I get right to the point. But when I do that I am deemed being suspicious in nature with ulterior motives. I can't win :-X
Quote from: Medusa on August 28, 2011, 03:14:39 AM
Oddly I'm direct aggressive in my talk to poeple. I get right to the point. But when I do that I am deemed being suspicious in nature with ulterior motives. I can't win :-X
You would do well in Germany, they don't do 'small talk', in fact I think there isn't even a term for 'small talk' in the german language. Cue OldGit, he'll know.
Quote from: Tank on August 28, 2011, 08:44:48 AM
Quote from: Medusa on August 28, 2011, 03:14:39 AM
Oddly I'm direct aggressive in my talk to poeple. I get right to the point. But when I do that I am deemed being suspicious in nature with ulterior motives. I can't win :-X
You would do well in Germany, they don't do 'small talk', in fact I think there isn't even a term for 'small talk' in the german language. Cue OldGit, he'll know.
Well there is a possibility I might end up in Germany depending on where Lecter moves us to. But I do know I'd make a great Arab woman. Ever hear them talk? They are very direct and aggressive! :D
I'll pass on the question to TheAnyKey, since he's a native!
Quote from: OldGit on August 28, 2011, 08:56:15 AM
I'll pass on the question to TheAnyKey, since he's a native!
Let's hope he spots this once he's a 10+ member.
Quote from: Tank on August 27, 2011, 08:43:08 PM
Bad manners know no bounds. Condescending people come in all shapes and sizes, Christopher Hitchins springs to mind right...
Hitchens is my hero. It is sometimes uncanny how the two of us think alike. If I only had the classes and experience in rhetoric (as he does), I'd be styling. Is he condescending? Arrogant? Yup! And I love it! Finally, someone that has the balls for hard debate tactics in public. And like Hitchens, who doesn't turn the other cheek, I'm sick and tired of walking away from or giving false respect or meekly stating my side to condescending and arrogant theists. So, many times I return the sentiment.
A simple example of returning arrogance is:
Xtian: There is only one god.
Me: That's the epitome of Christian arrogance.
Simple as that. And if they want to step further into the debate world with me, I'm happy for them....even though...I am nearly sure it won't make one bit of difference to them. But at least I stayed my ground, in their face as theirs in mine.
I get the biggest kick and satisfaction in watching Hitchens debate. Smug, arrogant, condscending, regular Joe...and right. He knows he's right, we know he's right and when you look at the faces of some of his debate foes, they know he's right (at least in certain circumstances or issues). The Dawkins intellectual type of stuff is all fine and dandy. But in Hitchens, the regular atheist off the street will connect much quicker, and we need that here in the worst way.
My opinions...of course...
Hitchins is very much a 'Marmite', character. There are times though when it's good to have a storm tooper up front.
Perhaps I'm naive, but the goal isn't to win debates, it's to win over people. Grabbing a theist by the metaphorical balls and getting into a big argument is not the proper way to do so. Talk with them, figure out what exactly they believe and why, then have a rational discussion. I don't go around poking theists with a stick to see what happens, nor do I believe that's the best course of action. Even while engaged in discussion, if it turns ugly (which it inevitably will sometimes), I think its best to be the person to bring the conversation back to reason. But if they're dismissive and not willing altogether, then I don't see how it's worth the effort.
Quote from: MinnesotaMike on August 28, 2011, 05:44:45 PM
Perhaps I'm naive, but the goal isn't to win debates, it's to win over people...Talk with them, figure out what exactly they believe and why, then have a rational discussion.
You're not naive at all. But the goal to win a debate, whether on the forums or a street corner or with theists friends dictates the style you'll choose. And we may never always win a debate, but as long as we've planted that seed of doubt, it works for me.
QuoteGrabbing a theist by the metaphorical balls and getting into a big argument is not the proper way to do so.
When they grab mine, I'm grabbing back. Been there, done it.
QuoteI don't go around poking theists with a stick to see what happens, nor do I believe that's the best course of action.
I do, quite a lot. It's not a very big stick, mind you. More like a feeler.
QuoteEven while engaged in discussion, if it turns ugly (which it inevitably will sometimes), I think its best to be the person to bring the conversation back to reason. But if they're dismissive and not willing altogether, then I don't see how it's worth the effort.
That may be fine where you live. Perhaps theists in Minnesota are a bit more progressive. Down here, that's not the case most of the time.
I don't have time for dealing with obviously feeble-minded theists who think they are better than me. I'm way too good for that.
Holier than thou, anyone?
I think it's especially more difficult for a theist who believes that her or she has a personal relationship with the creator of the universe and existence to be humble. I admire those who can actually pull it off ;D
Quote from: fester30 on August 28, 2011, 09:52:39 PM
I don't have time for dealing with obviously feeble-minded theists who think they are better than me. I'm way too good for that.
Not even when they won't leave you alone?
Quote from: MinnesotaMike on August 27, 2011, 07:02:44 PM
I've a quick question for my fellow rationalists on here: how do you remain so in the face of incredible disrespect?
Because I have problems in knowing how to act normally in social situations, I tend to treat the people I'm talking to the same way they are treating me or the other people they're talking to. There are certain behaviors I will not perform, but the general politeness in a conversation with me is driven by the other person (with certain exeptions of lines I will not cross). So if someone is being condescending to me, I often will be condescending to them. If they insult me, I will often insult them. However I refrain from logical fallacies no matter how many logical fallacies they commit. One behavior that comes naturally to me that I rarely see others do, is that I tend to point out the logical fallacies one is commiting as well as concede when one points to my fallacies.
I'm still working on this one aspect of my behavior problems, and this forum with rules for civility helps me practice it. I've often been described as "there's just something about the way you talk that makes me want to hit you." I've received many a threat to bodily harm and even my life. So far only bodily harm has been acted upon (and not very effectively). So even though this is how I deal with it, it's most likely not the approach for most people's desired end result.
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on August 28, 2011, 10:08:37 PM
Holier than thou, anyone?
I think it's especially more difficult for a theist who believes that her or she has a personal relationship with the creator of the universe and existence to be humble. I admire those who can actually pull it off ;D
Quote from: fester30 on August 28, 2011, 09:52:39 PM
I don't have time for dealing with obviously feeble-minded theists who think they are better than me. I'm way too good for that.
Not even when they won't leave you alone?
I think you missed the point. I was showing that I can be condescending when speaking of condescending people. In fact, my condescension is directly related to their condescension.
Quote from: fester30 on August 29, 2011, 11:38:06 PM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on August 28, 2011, 10:08:37 PM
Holier than thou, anyone?
I think it's especially more difficult for a theist who believes that her or she has a personal relationship with the creator of the universe and existence to be humble. I admire those who can actually pull it off ;D
Quote from: fester30 on August 28, 2011, 09:52:39 PM
I don't have time for dealing with obviously feeble-minded theists who think they are better than me. I'm way too good for that.
Not even when they won't leave you alone?
I think you missed the point. I was showing that I can be condescending when speaking of condescending people. In fact, my condescension is directly related to their condescension.
I got the tongue in cheek. Quite funny!
Quote from: fester30 on August 29, 2011, 11:38:06 PM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on August 28, 2011, 10:08:37 PM
Holier than thou, anyone?
I think it's especially more difficult for a theist who believes that her or she has a personal relationship with the creator of the universe and existence to be humble. I admire those who can actually pull it off ;D
Quote from: fester30 on August 28, 2011, 09:52:39 PM
I don't have time for dealing with obviously feeble-minded theists who think they are better than me. I'm way too good for that.
Not even when they won't leave you alone?
I think you missed the point. I was showing that I can be condescending when speaking of condescending people. In fact, my condescension is directly related to their condescension.
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Faux3.iconpedia.net%2Fuploads%2F660578034.png&hash=08890efd9cf892e86f222227c774314080093cab)
That is an AWESOME smiley!
:o big sis!
In any case, I agree with fester. For the most part, I don't waste my time or brain power attempting to convince theists of reason and logic.
Quote from: Tank on August 28, 2011, 02:12:50 PM
Hitchins is very much a 'Marmite', character. There are times though when it's good to have a storm tooper up front.
So true, he is entertaining to listen to linguistically but I always get the feeling he really really loves the smell of his own farts.
Quote from: MinnesotaMikehow do you guys deal with it (if you find it frustrating as well)?
I try not to take my own ideas too seriously. That way, first, I can remain a fairly cool and neutral thinker and, second, I don't mind so much when people are dismissive. A lot of atheists are more
emotionally invested in their world view than they realise, I think.
Quote from: CrowQuote from: TankHitchins is very much a 'Marmite', character. There are times though when it's good to have a storm tooper up front.
So true, he is entertaining to listen to linguistically but I always get the feeling he really really loves the smell of his own farts.
Also, great public speaker though he is, he's a terrible writer.
God is Not Great, especially, could be condensed into a leaflet. He just waffles on and on, around and around the same point, describing very simple ideas in overly complicated ways.
edit.
Quote from: Melmoth on September 01, 2011, 02:57:40 PM
Quote from: MinnesotaMikehow do you guys deal with it (if you find it frustrating as well)?
I try not to take my own ideas too seriously. That way, first, I can remain a fairly cool and neutral thinker and, second, I don't mind so much when people are dismissive. A lot of atheists are more emotionally invested in their world view than they realise, I think.
I acually don't run into trouble until people distriminate or say untrue, ignorant things about homosexuals.
I agree with Mike. I'm not expecting them to change their religion, but if you could just open their eyes a little to the lies beyond their church. Sometimes pepple find their own way out of religious superstsion. :)
Quote from: Sweetdeath on September 01, 2011, 05:14:18 PM
I agree with Mike. I'm not expecting them to change their religion, but if you could just open their eyes a little to the lies beyond their church. Sometimes pepple find their own way out of religious superstsion. :)
This, right here, is exactly what happened with me. Perhaps that's why I choose to interact the way I do; it's the only way I can see them changing.
That's how I feel. Being assertive and forceful only pushes people closer to religion and its lies.
I think that trying to find the common ground with some groups of people to be tough, but it comes down to if you want or need them for any reason (and unfortunately, theists do outnumber us and are better organised) then you have to take a more diplomatic approach to things. It's counter productive to do what Dawkins, Hitchens and those who identify with the 'new atheist movement' as they call themselves do.
Doesn't mean that you have to sit and listen to what idiots have to say.
Quote from: xSilverPhinxI think that trying to find the common ground with some groups of people to be tough, but it comes down to if you want or need them for any reason (and unfortunately, theists do outnumber us and are better organised) then you have to take a more diplomatic approach to things. It's counter productive to do what Dawkins, Hitchens and those who identify with the 'new atheist movement' as they call themselves do.
I quite like Daniel Dennett. He's always struck me as diplomatic and polite, yet interesting enough to pull it off. Critics of 'new atheism' also tend to avoid grappling with him, I think, because he's the most well-informed and his area of expertise is the most relevant. We can dismiss Dawkins for being philosophically shoddy, Hitchens for being so aggressive about religion that it borders on hysteria, Sam Harris for being a wet cabbage leaf, but I can't think of a good criticism for Dennett.
Quote from: Melmoth on September 02, 2011, 03:33:52 AM
Quote from: xSilverPhinxI think that trying to find the common ground with some groups of people to be tough, but it comes down to if you want or need them for any reason (and unfortunately, theists do outnumber us and are better organised) then you have to take a more diplomatic approach to things. It's counter productive to do what Dawkins, Hitchens and those who identify with the 'new atheist movement' as they call themselves do.
I quite like Daniel Dennett. He's always struck me as diplomatic and polite, yet interesting enough to pull it off. Critics of 'new atheism' also tend to avoid grappling with him, I think, because he's the most well-informed and his area of expertise is the most relevant. We can dismiss Dawkins for being philosophically shoddy, Hitchens for being so aggressive about religion that it borders on hysteria, Sam Harris for being a wet cabbage leaf, but I can't think of a good criticism for Dennett.
Spot on, getting upset with Dennett would be like getting upset with Father Christmas when he's just brought you a great present.
Can you imagine getting a hug from him? It'd be amazing. You'd get lost in that fuzzy beard and come out a different person.
My beard would be OK! ;D
I guess that's why you hardly hear apologists mention him that often.
Quote from: Melmoth on September 02, 2011, 02:30:12 PM
Can you imagine getting a hug from him? It'd be amazing. You'd get lost in that fuzzy beard and come out a different person.
Just like my trip to Narnia. :)
Closet joke?
What's a "closet joke"?
Quote from: Melmoth on September 03, 2011, 11:35:42 AM
What's a "closet joke"?
One gets into Narnia through a magic wardrobe (aka closet), hence closet joke ;D
Quote from: MinnesotaMike on August 27, 2011, 07:02:44 PM
-"A pair of hands at work will accomplish more than a thousand folded in prayer."
This actually sounds like an atheist saying to me -- wouldn't it be the other way around for a theist?
In any case I don't discuss religion with most people, it's just not worthwhile to me. I have no issue with what theists believe unless it affects the law somehow (breaking it, or trying to base it on their religion, that sort of thing). In any case, when I do come up against condescending crap I just remind myself that they're entitled to their opinion, and sometimes I remind them of that too, if I think it needs to be made clear that their opinion is not mine.
That was the back and forth we had. She mentioned prayer creates change, I mentioned that hands could be put to a better use to achieve results, and apparently she thinks that makes me blind to what folding your hands can accomplish.
Quote from: MinnesotaMike on September 06, 2011, 02:07:19 AM
That was the back and forth we had. She mentioned prayer creates change, I mentioned that hands could be put to a better use to achieve results, and apparently she thinks that makes me blind to what folding your hands can accomplish.
Oh, OK, I get it. I thought they were just a list of quotes from her. Do you remember when there was a flurry of reporting in the news that scientific studies had proven that patients in hospitals who have people praying for them, even if they don't know it, get better faster? I remember reading something a few months ago that this was not the full story. Apparently this was one of a set of random and unpredictable results -- prayed for people were also just as likely to show no difference over the unprayed for, and to actually get worse than people not being prayed for. That's something that frustrates me, when promoting the supernatural news is pushed all over the place and debunking the supernatural news is buried.
I invite them to walk and talk with me. Whilst having a wonderful conversation about praying for me, I find an elevator, hit the button for the top floor, and fart when the doors close. Let's see God get you out of this one...
Quote from: fyv0h on September 10, 2011, 12:57:37 AM
I invite them to walk and talk with me. Whilst having a wonderful conversation about praying for me, I find an elevator, hit the button for the top floor, and fart when the doors close. Let's see God get you out of this one...
ROFL!! :D
I love that! Honestly, more of them need to be taken for a "ride."
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on September 06, 2011, 03:25:34 AM
Oh, OK, I get it. I thought they were just a list of quotes from her. Do you remember when there was a flurry of reporting in the news that scientific studies had proven that patients in hospitals who have people praying for them, even if they don't know it, get better faster? I remember reading something a few months ago that this was not the full story. Apparently this was one of a set of random and unpredictable results -- prayed for people were also just as likely to show no difference over the unprayed for, and to actually get worse than people not being prayed for. That's something that frustrates me, when promoting the supernatural news is pushed all over the place and debunking the supernatural news is buried.
If I recall correctly, in 'The God Delusion', Dawkins talks about a study like this where the people who were prayed for did WORSE than the people who weren't. The people running the study chalked it up to performance anxiety.
Quote from: MinnesotaMike on August 27, 2011, 07:02:44 PM
I've a quick question for my fellow rationalists on here: how do you remain so in the face of incredible disrespect? Whenever the subject of religion/prayer/theism is brought up with a Christian, it seems they are entirely dismissive and condescending when you're trying to have an actual conversation. Most recently:
-"Prayer changes things!"
-"A pair of hands at work will accomplish more than a thousand folded in prayer."
-"We are all ignorant, just on different subjects."
I don't know why, but this type of remark really burns me. After this little transaction I stated that she was being condescending, and she didn't object at all. The premise that anyone who doesn't agree with you is ignorant is typically laughable, but the irony was (apparently) lost on her.
Furthermore, I want to state that I don't lash out or participate in militant atheism, and I never resort to violence or verbal abuse. Usually I'm like a puppy... made out of bunnies... but I believe the dismissive attitude is inexcusable and it just makes me livid. Any idea as to why this is so frustrating? And how do you guys deal with it (if you find it frustrating as well)?
Those type of responses normally only come from extremely ignorant people who are to submissive and not knowledgeable to even know how to begin to defend what they're trying to preach.