Happy Atheist Forum

Why is it considered appropriate to question someone's age in a discussion?  This will likely get me banned to even ask it, but I wonder why it's perfectly OK to use a minor's age as your argument instead of responding to their argument intelligently?  And why is it out of line if you call someone out for using age discrimination as their argument?

To me, using someone's age means you have no intelligent rebuttal for their argument so you are basically just saying "you are too young to have an intelligent opinion."  I think that discounting someone's argument due to their age is immature and bigoted.  If you can't argue without making personal attacks you aren't qualified to be part of the discussion.  Questioning people's ages is a personal attack when it really isn't relevant to the conversation.  If we are talking about what's hot with teens now or how to deal with the troubles of aging, age isn't irrelevant but for just about anything else, it is.

But for some reason it's OK to basically end a discussion with, "you're young and thus immature and ignorant so I win!" and anyone who disagrees will be warned.

I can understand why a minor might be warned for participating in discussions it might be illegal for him or her to participate in but to just support age discrimination instead seems wrong, doesn't it?  Why not just ban minors from threads it's illegal for them (and us if they are there) to exercise free speech in instead of going on about the legal repercussions of hosting discussions illegal for minors to participate in?    

In case you were wondering, I'm forty-one.

Well, kids do tend to lack the visdom and knowledge ballast to argue a point successfully, but that doesn't mean that age alone is a fair argument in a debate. I, for one, would not mind debating - and possibly being bested by - a kid who knew what (s)he was doing.

Quote from: "Kylyssa"This will likely get me banned to even ask it, but I wonder why it's perfectly OK to use a minor's age as your argument instead of responding to their argument intelligently?

I don't even know what this is about...why would you think you'd get banned for asking a question?

Quote from: "Whitney"I don't even know what this is about...why would you think you'd get banned for asking a question?

Probably because many people view age questions as a taboo..?

Let me try to point out the point for you though, as I see it:

Is referencing someone's age a valid argument when trying to dispute their claims?

Quote from: "Whitney"

Quote from: "Kylyssa"This will likely get me banned to even ask it, but I wonder why it's perfectly OK to use a minor's age as your argument instead of responding to their argument intelligently?

I don't even know what this is about...why would you think you'd get banned for asking a question?

Because of a private message I received from a moderator in response to a private message I sent to Legendary Sandwich offering support regarding the age discrimination in a particular thread in which he was chastised for calling someone out for age discrimination.  I didn't feel comfortable offering support in the thread because of how LS was treated.  I was unwilling to participate in a game where dirty pool is not only allowed but in which one is not allowed to call out such behavior.

Quote from: "Asmodean"Is referencing someone's age a valid argument when trying to dispute their claims?

Thank you!  That's exactly what I was trying to say.  

I'm also wondering why so many people seem to feel it is a valid argument.

Quote from: "Whitney"

Quote from: "Kylyssa"This will likely get me banned to even ask it, but I wonder why it's perfectly OK to use a minor's age as your argument instead of responding to their argument intelligently?

I don't even know what this is about...why would you think you'd get banned for asking a question?

Yeah I was wondering about that too. And what's with it being "illegal" for minors to participate in certain discussions? Pretty sure freedom of speech was guaranteed to all Americans, at least. I mean unless the thread has porn or something in it which minors are technically unable to view due to legal restrictions. Or if a minor's parents disapprove of them viewing a certain topic. Neither of which would have stopped me when I was a minor. Apparently Kylyssa has no faith in our 1st amendment.  

Quote from: "Asmodean"Is referencing someone's age a valid argument when trying to dispute their claims?

No, if someone is wrong you shouldn't have to know their age in order to prove why they are wrong.

The only time I find age helpful is if someone is having problems grasping a concept and I know they are very young I'll give them more slack.


As for minors participating in threads....this is a forum for adults (as opposed to being for kids, in which case I'd have to make all the under 18 members get one of those COPPA, or whatever it's called, forms filled out by their parents) and I'm not responsible for policing what is appropriate and inappropriate for minors to see.  As far as I'm aware there is no information that is illegal for minors to view that is not also illegal for adults (at least not in the states, which is the only laws I need to worry about as a forum owner).

Quote from: "Asmodean"Well, kids do tend to lack the visdom and knowledge ballast to argue a point successfully, but that doesn't mean that age alone is a fair argument in a debate. I, for one, would not mind debating - and possibly being bested by - a kid who knew what (s)he was doing.

Very well said.

And if a young person lacks the wisdom or knowledge to "win" a debate, should it not be the duty of us "more educated" people to help this person achieve greater understanding if he has shown interest in learning?
 Better that they get answers(or more questions) from a rational debate then from some preacher.

Quote from: "Guardian85"Better that they get answers(or more questions) from a rational debate then from some preacher. :D

Thanks for your support and concern, Klyssa. I don't really have much to say on this topic besides that.

I'm 27. What one can fairly assume from that is I have no practical experience with proctology, Social Security, and dentures. Being 27 does not mean, however, that I'm less educated or more likely to be incorrect in the vast, vast majority of discussions.

Ageism is an ad hom fallacy, and a weak one at that.

Quote from: "Kylyssa"

Quote from: "Asmodean"Is referencing someone's age a valid argument when trying to dispute their claims?

Thank you!  That's exactly what I was trying to say.  

I'm also wondering why so many people seem to feel it is a valid argument.

It pretty much depends on the topic.

For instance, I'm on a music forum where there's a 16-year-old trying to tell people how to behave on a club gig.  In that case, I felt fine telling him that he isn't even old enough to get in, and so his advice, while well-meaning, was baseless from the viewpoint of experience, which is really the key to interpersonal relations.

At other times, my 13 yo son will correct me on a point and I will take it because he's right and I'm wrong.

It all depends on the issue under discussion.

Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"

Quote from: "Kylyssa"

Quote from: "Asmodean"Is referencing someone's age a valid argument when trying to dispute their claims?

Thank you!  That's exactly what I was trying to say.  

I'm also wondering why so many people seem to feel it is a valid argument.

It pretty much depends on the topic.

For instance, I'm on a music forum where there's a 16-year-old trying to tell people how to behave on a club gig.  In that case, I felt fine telling him that he isn't even old enough to get in, and so his advice, while well-meaning, was baseless from the viewpoint of experience, which is really the key to interpersonal relations.

At other times, my 13 yo son will correct me on a point and I will take it because he's right and I'm wrong.

It all depends on the issue under discussion.

I believe what Kylyssa and Asmodean ment was that if all other things were equal, age alone should never be a bar to participation.

(My apologies to Kylyssa and Asmodean if I misunderstand their meaning.)

Yeah, in that circumstance, sure.

Quote from: "Asmodean"Is referencing someone's age a valid argument when trying to dispute their claims?

[/quote]
It's my favorite method when I'm wrong, but I don't think it's only for arguments with kids.  You can use the age thing if they're older than you, too.  Then it's not unfair discrimination, because you are treating them all equally.

Quote from: "fester30"It's my favorite method when I'm wrong, but I don't think it's only for arguments with kids.  You can use the age thing if they're older than you, too.  Then it's not unfair discrimination, because you are treating them all equally. :raised:



 

Quote from: "JoeBobSmith"One of my weirdest experiences ever on an internet forum was when I found out someone that I had assumed to be a dirty old forty-something year old man was actually just a pervy 14 year old kid...It blew my mind

Stereotyping is such a wonderful thing, yes?  

Quote from: "JoeBobSmith"One of my weirdest experiences ever on an internet forum was when I found out someone that I had assumed to be a dirty old forty-something year old man was actually just a pervy 14 year old kid...It blew my mind

That's only half the story.  That lonely, physically perfect lesbian that doesn't have any personal pictures because she doesn't have a digital camera or scanner in the chatroom?  She's really a 36 year old overweight, balding, never-been-married guy living in his mom's basement.  That lonely, physically perfect bi-curious woman who doesn't have any profile pictures because her webcam is broken and she has to buy a new one that he's chatting dirty with?  She's really a drunk, 28 year old divorced father of two who never sees his kids and can't afford a real date because of the child support bills.  Now I'm not saying all beautiful lesbians in chatrooms without pictures are really men pretending to be women.  I'm just saying this sort of thing happens.  Guys end up having cybersex with each other because they both think they are talking to a woman.

Quote from: "Asmodean"

Quote from: "fester30"It's my favorite method when I'm wrong, but I don't think it's only for arguments with kids.  You can use the age thing if they're older than you, too.  Then it's not unfair discrimination, because you are treating them all equally. :raised:  roflol

Quote from: "fester30"Are you in my age group?  If not then you should know better than to make good points when you're talking to me because they are invalid anyway.
 :pop:

Quote from: "Asmodean"

You use that smiley too much. I think you may have an addiction.

Quote from: "Asmodean"

Quote from: "fester30"Are you in my age group?  If not then you should know better than to make good points when you're talking to me because they are invalid anyway.
 :pop:

Oh yeah?  Well, Aunicornist, take THAT>>>>> http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2008/06/unicorns-are-re/#

Hope you don't hate me for this like that one kid did when I told her Santa wasn't real.

Quote from: "Cecilie"You use that smiley too much. I think you may have an addiction.

Compensating for the lack of a miniature version of my avatar to use as emoticon.  

Quote from: "fester30"

Quote from: "JoeBobSmith"One of my weirdest experiences ever on an internet forum was when I found out someone that I had assumed to be a dirty old forty-something year old man was actually just a pervy 14 year old kid...It blew my mind

That's only half the story.  That lonely, physically perfect lesbian that doesn't have any personal pictures because she doesn't have a digital camera or scanner in the chatroom?  She's really a 36 year old overweight, balding, never-been-married guy living in his mom's basement.  That lonely, physically perfect bi-curious woman who doesn't have any profile pictures because her webcam is broken and she has to buy a new one that he's chatting dirty with?  She's really a drunk, 28 year old divorced father of two who never sees his kids and can't afford a real date because of the child support bills.  Now I'm not saying all beautiful lesbians in chatrooms without pictures are really men pretending to be women.  I'm just saying this sort of thing happens.  Guys end up having cybersex with each other because they both think they are talking to a woman.

The real problem is that even when the person concerned is the age/gender they say they are but still turn out to be living in a bloody fantasy. It's only after a while that things explode when the person can't maintain the fantasy anymore. Sometimes the fantasy traps the fantersiser into a spiral of self deceit that gets harder and harder to maintain and eventually the person implodes. I've been caught out by this sort of thing twice. There is another issue. That the impression one gives/gets of another person on-line can be way different from real life. Even when that contact gets as far a Skype with webcam! I have met many people in real life that I have know on-line, and on the whole things have been fine. But on two occasions expectations didn't meet reality and the situations ended pretty badly. I am personally much more wary of approaches online now than I was in the past.

Quote from: "fester30"Hope you don't hate me for this like that one kid did when I told her Santa wasn't real.

It has one horn, but is not a unicorn.  :rant:

Quote from: "Asmodean"

Quote from: "Cecilie"You use that smiley too much. I think you may have an addiction.

Compensating for the lack of a miniature version of my avatar to use as emoticon.  

I have noticed that it's pretty much only you and Tank that uses that emoticon.

Quote from: "Tank"I am personally much more wary of approaches online now than I was in the past.

Um, yes...always meet in a public space where you are surrounded by trusted friends (doesn't' matter if you are male or female).  One of the members here at HAF met me at the FoF recently (he knows who he is) and then all he proceeded to do was complain (not to me, but publicly on meetup) about how we didn't have hundreds of people show up and didn't have new person greeters going around saying hi to everyone (it's a volunteer organization, not a business); One of the other members had helped him find his way around, I saw him having conversations with a gorup of members, I said hi to him and I introduced him to one of our other members who goes to FoF.  Not sure how someone could expect more than that.  And then he quit posting here immediately afterward...very odd.

Thankfully the rest of the few HAF members I have met in person are very nice people  

Quote from: "Asmodean"

Quote from: "Cecilie"You use that smiley too much. I think you may have an addiction.

Compensating for the lack of a miniature version of my avatar to use as emoticon.  

How's this?

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimm.io%2Fmedia%2F3z%2F3zdR.png&hash=fdb6df44bff3f30ec1e73068a3516bdc167738c8)

Quote from: "Asmodean"

Quote from: "fester30"Hope you don't hate me for this like that one kid did when I told her Santa wasn't real.

It has one horn, but is not a unicorn.  :rant:

It's one of a set of twins.  Its sibling had proper deer antlers.  It was born with just the one horn in the middle.  Most of the time this abnormality happens, it's either the left or the right horn that is there.  This is a rare situation where it's in the middle.  There, I read the story for you.

I always thought it would be cool to have a unicorn and a pegasus in one... so you could fly and have a weapon.

Quote from: "JoeBobSmith"So what your saying is that this self-admitted 14 yo kid could have been lying and still could be a dirty old man?

Le sigh.

 

Quote from: "JoeBobSmith"

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"

Quote from: "JoeBobSmith"So what your saying is that this self-admitted 14 yo kid could have been lying and still could be a dirty old man?

Le sigh.

 

don't worry, i am done with this line of posting

but you must admit, most 14 yo don't post the kinds of things you do

LS is an exceptional young man. When he kicks ass I do tend to forget how old he is. If only there were more, many more, like him.

I think LS is 14. Just look at his username.

I don't see why certain people have such trouble with Sandwich...  If he says he's 14, then that's what he probably is. Which is, by the way, none of your business in the first place (exc. Whitney, who is entitled to know that people are actually over 13 at signup or have parental consent... Different story.)

Sorry for third-personing you, Sandwich, since you are likely a part of this convo... Just following the style others used

Get off my lawn, ya d*mn kids!

Okay, now that's out of the way...  When I first got on IRC, three-quarters of the channel knew more about the then-modern computers (PCs) than I did, and half of them were 15 and under.  (I was an old Vax/COBOL nut, so  I wasn't completely stupid.)  I learned a lot from them, and hopefully they from me.  I'd wager half the folks I've talked to on the 'net fall into that age-group, but since I'm a firm anti-a/s/l type, I can't say.  Wisdom may be age-acquired,  but intelligence isn't.  If a person shouldn't be involved in a discussion because of age, it's their parents' responsibility to see that they aren't -- not mine.

Youth is wasted on the young.

You know, there is a valid point there.  I have seen pre-teens and teenagers act more mature then middle aged adults.  When I became an atheist I was 11, and everyone said that I didn't know, or I was going through a phase.  Even now, I am 19 and I got a tattoo supporting my atheism.  When one of my neighbors realized what the tattoo meant she told me I was going to regret it someday.  However, there are some children that are honestly too immature to make an argument.  But some kids are mature and can make those arguments.

Quote from: "rawrdog822"You know, there is a valid point there.  I have seen pre-teens and teenagers act more mature then middle aged adults.  When I became an atheist I was 11, and everyone said that I didn't know, or I was going through a phase.  Even now, I am 19 and I got a tattoo supporting my atheism.  When one of my neighbors realized what the tattoo meant she told me I was going to regret it someday.  However, there are some children that are honestly too immature to make an argument.  But some kids are mature and can make those arguments.

That seems to be a common retort -- that you're just "going through a phase"; you'll "wake up one day and realize that God exists".

My parents still try to convert me back, although my mom is much worse than my dad in this respect. He rarely ever bugs me about it and last time I went to church with him he let me sleep in the car. My mom, on the other hand, still makes me read the Bible, go to church (although a lot of the time I can weasel out of it some way or the other), etc.; and talks to me about God and tells me to pray on a regular basis. Really, what is she hoping to accomplish? That's obviously a rhetorical question, as I full-well know the answer; but it may be a good question to ask her next time she tries to bring me along to Church.

She probably genuinely believes that you'll go to hell if she doesn't "save" you. Just be happy she doesn't try to cast out your "demons," or or some other such nonsense.

I don't know the whole situation, but if you're having problems it probably wouldn't hurt to talk about them. Maybe you could come up with a compromise.

If you're right, you're right. Your age makes no difference in that regard. If an older individual is going to put down a child for proving them wrong by simply throwing their age in the kids face, it says alot more about the adults maturity and reasoning skills than anything. It's pride that gets in the way of letting someone "beneath" you come out on top.

There was a time when the average 13-16 year old was more mature, had a better work ethic, and, sometimes, more intelligent than the average 30 year old is today. The age of majority has been pushed forward, and kids are encouraged by the media to "goof off" during their developmental years. Adults expect this of kids, as a rule, and therefore, the kids tend to be more than happy to oblige.

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"

Quote from: "rawrdog822"You know, there is a valid point there.  I have seen pre-teens and teenagers act more mature then middle aged adults.  When I became an atheist I was 11, and everyone said that I didn't know, or I was going through a phase.  Even now, I am 19 and I got a tattoo supporting my atheism.  When one of my neighbors realized what the tattoo meant she told me I was going to regret it someday.  However, there are some children that are honestly too immature to make an argument.  But some kids are mature and can make those arguments.

That seems to be a common retort -- that you're just "going through a phase"; you'll "wake up one day and realize that God exists".

My parents still try to convert me back, although my mom is much worse than my dad in this respect. He rarely ever bugs me about it and last time I went to church with him he let me sleep in the car. My mom, on the other hand, still makes me read the Bible, go to church (although a lot of the time I can weasel out of it some way or the other), etc.; and talks to me about God and tells me to pray on a regular basis. Really, what is she hoping to accomplish? That's obviously a rhetorical question, as I full-well know the answer; but it may be a good question to ask her next time she tries to bring me along to Church.

That kind of proselytizing will only push someone further and further away from religion. I've got kind of the same situation here.

It actually pisses me off more than I would think it would that there are so many stupid youger-aged YouTubers & other uploaders & the like that come off as incredibly unwatchable due to stupidity, but I try not to hold bias as I am subscribed to a number of younger-ish YouTubers whom I enjoy videos from. I won't try to plug random channels in and seem like a shill. I consider myself to be an intelligent person, whether it be bias or atheism or general detesting of most of humanity, I try to stay open as much as possible. I think the age argument is basically stereotyping and a weak argument in general, and rarely actually applies since people on teh interwebz usually are more private about their lives outside of teh interwebz.

Quote from: ZombiePhysics on May 01, 2011, 06:29:10 AM
It actually pisses me off more than I would think it would that there are so many stupid youger-aged YouTubers & other uploaders & the like that come off as incredibly unwatchable due to stupidity, but I try not to hold bias as I am subscribed to a number of younger-ish YouTubers whom I enjoy videos from. I won't try to plug random channels in and seem like a shill. I consider myself to be an intelligent person, whether it be bias or atheism or general detesting of most of humanity, I try to stay open as much as possible. I think the age argument is basically stereotyping and a weak argument in general, and rarely actually applies since people on teh interwebz usually are more private about their lives outside of teh interwebz.

Actually if you take the time to get to know them most of humanity is quite nice in my experience. There are arseholes but I would estimate between 3 to 5 in a hundred and various degrees of arseholeishness.

Quote from: Kylyssa on January 30, 2011, 06:45:39 PM
Why is it considered appropriate to question someone's age in a discussion?  This will likely get me banned to even ask it, but I wonder why it's perfectly OK to use a minor's age as your argument instead of responding to their argument intelligently?  And why is it out of line if you call someone out for using age discrimination as their argument?

To me, using someone's age means you have no intelligent rebuttal for their argument so you are basically just saying "you are too young to have an intelligent opinion."  I think that discounting someone's argument due to their age is immature and bigoted.  If you can't argue without making personal attacks you aren't qualified to be part of the discussion.  Questioning people's ages is a personal attack when it really isn't relevant to the conversation.  If we are talking about what's hot with teens now or how to deal with the troubles of aging, age isn't irrelevant but for just about anything else, it is.

But for some reason it's OK to basically end a discussion with, "you're young and thus immature and ignorant so I win!" and anyone who disagrees will be warned.

I can understand why a minor might be warned for participating in discussions it might be illegal for him or her to participate in but to just support age discrimination instead seems wrong, doesn't it?  Why not just ban minors from threads it's illegal for them (and us if they are there) to exercise free speech in instead of going on about the legal repercussions of hosting discussions illegal for minors to participate in?    

In case you were wondering, I'm forty-one.

You'll understand when you're older.

Quote from: Will37 on May 06, 2011, 06:30:54 AM

Quote from: Kylyssa on January 30, 2011, 06:45:39 PM
Why is it considered appropriate to question someone's age in a discussion?  This will likely get me banned to even ask it, but I wonder why it's perfectly OK to use a minor's age as your argument instead of responding to their argument intelligently?  And why is it out of line if you call someone out for using age discrimination as their argument?

To me, using someone's age means you have no intelligent rebuttal for their argument so you are basically just saying "you are too young to have an intelligent opinion."  I think that discounting someone's argument due to their age is immature and bigoted.  If you can't argue without making personal attacks you aren't qualified to be part of the discussion.  Questioning people's ages is a personal attack when it really isn't relevant to the conversation.  If we are talking about what's hot with teens now or how to deal with the troubles of aging, age isn't irrelevant but for just about anything else, it is.

But for some reason it's OK to basically end a discussion with, "you're young and thus immature and ignorant so I win!" and anyone who disagrees will be warned.

I can understand why a minor might be warned for participating in discussions it might be illegal for him or her to participate in but to just support age discrimination instead seems wrong, doesn't it?  Why not just ban minors from threads it's illegal for them (and us if they are there) to exercise free speech in instead of going on about the legal repercussions of hosting discussions illegal for minors to participate in?    

In case you were wondering, I'm forty-one.

You'll understand when you're older.

As a matter of interest how old are you?

Quote from: Tank on May 06, 2011, 09:07:51 AM

Quote from: Will37 on May 06, 2011, 06:30:54 AM

Quote from: Kylyssa on January 30, 2011, 06:45:39 PM
Why is it considered appropriate to question someone's age in a discussion?  This will likely get me banned to even ask it, but I wonder why it's perfectly OK to use a minor's age as your argument instead of responding to their argument intelligently?  And why is it out of line if you call someone out for using age discrimination as their argument?

To me, using someone's age means you have no intelligent rebuttal for their argument so you are basically just saying "you are too young to have an intelligent opinion."  I think that discounting someone's argument due to their age is immature and bigoted.  If you can't argue without making personal attacks you aren't qualified to be part of the discussion.  Questioning people's ages is a personal attack when it really isn't relevant to the conversation.  If we are talking about what's hot with teens now or how to deal with the troubles of aging, age isn't irrelevant but for just about anything else, it is.

But for some reason it's OK to basically end a discussion with, "you're young and thus immature and ignorant so I win!" and anyone who disagrees will be warned.

I can understand why a minor might be warned for participating in discussions it might be illegal for him or her to participate in but to just support age discrimination instead seems wrong, doesn't it?  Why not just ban minors from threads it's illegal for them (and us if they are there) to exercise free speech in instead of going on about the legal repercussions of hosting discussions illegal for minors to participate in?    

In case you were wondering, I'm forty-one.

You'll understand when you're older.

As a matter of interest how old are you?

22