Happy Atheist Forum

Southern Israel and Gaza strip up and exploded again.

From what I understand, Hamas launched several thousand rockets at (well... In the direction of.) Israeli targets, followed by an armed incursion. Istael has declared war in response.

I wonder if it's time for Israel to unleash the proverbial dogs of war and seek a military resolution decisive enough that would have a chance to last for at least a generation or two. They would probably need some serious aid to prevent and/or counter opportunism from some of their neighbours if they were to commit in that manner. I suppose the United States would do what it could - here's to hoping that Europe would follow suit. We have an unfortunate number of voices siding with the Islamists though - hopefully not enough... Also, we do have the ongoing war in Ukraine, but I think we are capable of aiding in two major conflicts, provided the adequate political will to do so. These conflicts may be too important for anything else.

Be interested to hear your thoughts on the matter. Work towards reestablishing status quo, just glass the damned desert or... A third option?

i think israel is seeing the results of 56 years of treating palestinians and arab israelis as subhuman animals.

"animals" is a direct quote from the israeli minister of securiyy this morning.

what hamss did is inexcuseable. but it was not unprovoked.

now the israelis have been provoked, and what they will do is equally inexcuseable.

and the dance will go on.

Quote from: billy rubin on October 09, 2023, 02:20:04 PMand the dance will go on.

That's why I think they should go all in and... Clean house, as a politically-correct The Asmo might put it. Some places, it's "live by the sword or die by one," rather than "live by the sword and die by one."

I suppose had Hamas been a bit less of a poison, I might have been inclined to at least partly share your view. As things stand, however, I'm very firmly pro-Israel in this.

i agree about cleaning house.

a good start wpuld be to expel every israeli from the west bank.

thats a problem the israelis have no interest in solving.

This won't end until one side gives up and that won't happen any time soon.

Israel should never have existed as it is.

whatever the provenance, its a mess now. netanyahu is headed for genocide, i think. and hamas is ready to murder tbeir way to paradise.

the palestinians who just want to raise tbeir families in peace are tbe ones taking the brunt of the war.

Agreed.

It looks like the Israelis just aren't going to stop until Gaza is gone.

the nazis did the same to the warsaw ghetto. they just took more time.

Hmm... Well.

My justification is as follows; on the one hand, there is a nation that does not wish to kill, convert or otherwise "inconvenience" me. On the other, a terrorist organization that would greatly enjoy all of the above. Whatever evils Israel may be, I can... Work with them. Hamas? Not so much.

Perhaps there is an argument to be made as to whether the nation of Israel should exist. The reality is, it does, and it has proven capable of defending the claims it stakes. Perhaps there is an argument that the nation of Palestine should exist. In the unlikely event that Hamas succeed in holding at least a scrap of what they took, maybe some version of that argument deserves to be made. Me, I'd like to think I've learned my lessons in Islamist nation building from the likes of the Islamic "State."

Oh damn, I was typing for about an hour, I was really in the zone.
I had a solution, both sides, all sides got what they needed.
No one would have needed to die, no more living in squalor necessary.
No need for soldiers to be ever vigilant as everyone would be content.
But my post got lost, just fell into the ether as sometimes happens.
Ah well, I'll just have to recreate it tomorrow I suppose.

If you were composing for an hour and your login timeout is one hour, then your post - and peace in the Middle East - fell victim to connection timeout. When that happens, it may help to press the back button in your browser - it may still have what you were trying to post cached. :smilenod:

Quote from: billy rubin on October 09, 2023, 11:11:06 PMthe nazis did the same to the warsaw ghetto. they just took more time.

Exactly.

Quote from: Tank on October 10, 2023, 11:47:49 AM

Quote from: billy rubin on October 09, 2023, 11:11:06 PMthe nazis did the same to the warsaw ghetto. they just took more time.

Exactly.

Uh... What? Israel and militants based in Gaza have been clashing for at least as long as I have lived. Just how many decades did the Nazis spend leveling the Warsaw ghetto to have taken more time? :unsure:

Quote from: Asmodean on October 10, 2023, 11:51:18 AM

Quote from: Tank on October 10, 2023, 11:47:49 AM

Quote from: billy rubin on October 09, 2023, 11:11:06 PMthe nazis did the same to the warsaw ghetto. they just took more time.

Exactly.

Uh... What? Israel and militants based in Gaza have been clashing for at least as long as I have lived. Just how many decades did the Nazis spend leveling the Warsaw ghetto to have taken more time? :unsure:

I was referring to the current isolation of the Gaza strip. But you're right in that Israel have ghetto'isd the Palestinian population since the war in 1948.
 

Oh! Yes, maybe in light of the recent escalation, although Gaza does stand... At least it did last I checked a few hours ago.

I think it may turn into a lenghty war, provided Hamas did not go all-in from the get-go, which... Seriously bad news for the civilian population - both in Gaza and in Israel, although there are few ways there of escaping a bad news sort of situation for that group. What was that Ukrainian (I think - mebbe Polish? I learned it in relation to the Ukraine war) proverb again..? "When the lords fight, the peasants' teeth rattle?" Maybe not exactly that, but wise words regardless.

I think that the worst enemy of the Palestinians are the Palestinians themselves. There have been several peace negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians that almost succeeded until the Palestinians came up with last minute crazy demands. Furthermore, it is a fact that the Palestinian Authority has always been corrupt as hell; and that Hamas and Hezbollah clearly stated that they want to kill all Jews.

I tend to agree. The Palestinian government is nearly as big a joke as the Somali one, and theirs is notorious for topping the lists of failed states. Too many (radical- and other -ist) interests that conflict with effective governance, I suppose, on top of the self-serving and the corruption.

OK, I'm sure HAF can answer this.
It Israel had taken its boot off the neck of the rabid dog

There's a problem with that metaphor, there are lots of dogs, some are friendly with wagley tails.

Alright
If Israel had taken its boot off all metaphorical dogs necks, nice and not, years ago, would they be in a better place?

I tend to disagree. Unless you can get rid of all radical elements in this conflict them, peace is not obtainable. Hamas and Hezbollah thrive on hate and so may some of ultra Orthodox Jews.

One line of argument, to which I've taken to subscribing after having been wrong about this issue for the first decade of me even knowing about it, is that if Israel took its boot off the metaphorical neck of a rabid dog, it would end up with metaphorical rabies.

Sure, there are plenty of people in Palestine who could coexist with Israel. As is often the case in certain more authoritarian societies, however, they end up mattering little politically speaking because that other component of society can effectively coerce, threaten or just plain ignore them with very little domestic reprecussions.

Palestinian authorities are about as effective at managing their extremists as the now-deposed Afghan authorities were at managing Taliban, which is to say, "not very." When those forces then set their goals in the conquest or destruction of a neighboring nation... Well, luckily for that nation, it has a sizable column of tanks to its name.

God was an idiot to have given the same plot of desert to several prospective owners, is what I think. :smilenod: At least there ought to have been vast quantities of oil there or some such... Diamonds, maybe... Something tangible for all the effort.

Quote from: Asmodean on October 09, 2023, 02:48:31 PM

Quote from: billy rubin on October 09, 2023, 02:20:04 PMand the dance will go on.

That's why I think they should go all in and... Clean house,

How?
They are terrorists.
They'll slink away like rats

Spend a lot of time and resources. Go door to door and look for weapon caches and what else have you - maybe build a taller Wall(tm) with flamethrowers on top. Blockade land and sea access and actually inspect every crate of cargo coming in that you do not directly control. It's a monumental undertaking.

As I said, that situation as I see it would require Israel to have significant allied help as it would likely take most of their standing military resources for a number of years.

it appears that israel is planning on going into gaza with ground troops.

not a good idea, if you remember the american battle of manila in 1945. in that clean-up, the americans had to go into manila and re-take it room by room. i remember the walls and buildings in manila when i was a child that were still pockmarked with bullet holes from american and japanese machine guns. it took a month and 100,000 civilians died to finish that operation.

are we ready for a repeat? because the IDF and hamas appear to be ready.

it wont be hamas that takes the brunt of this. it will be the ordinary civilian palestinians of gaza who will be caught in the crossfire and will die.

and tje biggest question of all:

what did hamas hope to gain by this?

it will set any peace process back bybyears

it will fe-legitimize the palestimian cause on the world stage.

it will inflame conflicts elsewhete


sure, ot has thrown a wrench into the saudi peace agreement with israeel. and it has reminded everybody that the palestinian people mustnt be ignored.

but is that it?

wad it eorth it?

Quote from: billy rubin on October 11, 2023, 01:07:34 AMnot a good idea, if you remember the american battle of manila in 1945. in that clean-up, the americans had to go into manila and re-take it room by room. i remember the walls and buildings in manila when i was a child that were still pockmarked with bullet holes from american and japanese machine guns. it took a month and 100,000 civilians died to finish that operation.

Not a good idea, no, but that's part of what Israel has to do to set Hamas back a generation or two.

Has to be done, I think.

More Israeli troops are massing on the border with Gaza as I write this.

Norway condemned the Israeli blockade of Gaza.

I disagree with the official position in this - quite strongly, in fact. How else but a blockade can Israel prevent the supply of weapons, ammunition, fuel... All those things Hamas depends on to continue their war efforts?

I suppose I see some virtue behind the virtue signal, but my government is not exactly offering Israel any better options to go with with their condemnation.

Hamas are holding hostages who I suspect they would actually like to kill. Israel can't apply pressure directly to the kidnappers. I think the Israeli blockade is the least worst option to apply to Hamas.

Yeah... There is that. I do hope I'm wrong about this, but I suspect no good outcome for the majority of the hostages.

Israel can not, should not and likely will not negotiate their release with Hamas - any concession beyond "prisoner exchange" would be a bad strategic decision. And if they go in after the hostages guns a-blazin'... Well... what's a kidnapper with few other options to do, but use them as human shields until they are no more?

the only difference between hamas and the likud is that hamas did it in one day while.tge israelis have been doing it for 56 years.

theres no moral high ground on any side anymore. both hamas and the official israeli policy is to act with bestial violence and disregard for innocents.

the palestinian people are the losers here, as always. there will be no winners.

Quote from: billy rubin on October 13, 2023, 12:57:16 PMthe only difference between hamas and the likud is that hamas did it in one day while.tge israelis have been doing it for 56 years.

This is untrue. There have been attacks against Israel by militants from Palestinian territories for at least as long as I can remember. There have also been periods of Israeli territorial expansions.

Actually, this reminds me of this political drama from when I was a teenager, where it was said something to the tune of;

- What do you call a society that has to live with the idea that a cafe you sit in could blow up at any moment?
- Israel.

Mainstream "light entertainment" of Left-ish political alignment was onto it what, 20 years ago? (Maybe more - I have the name of the show on the tip of my tongue, but can't for the life of me remember so I can look it up properly) No, Hamas did not do it in a day. and by "Hamas," I don't mean the name - I mean the people.

This also speaks to your later points, so... Situationally-wise, as TV quotes go.

Quotetheres no moral high ground on any side anymore. both hamas and the official israeli policy is to act with bestial violence and disregard for innocents.

This is debatable. Islamic militants tend not to differentiate between Israeli civilians and combatants. For example, their rockets are not far from just being lobbed across the border, preferably in a direction of a major settlement, to land wherever they may. Some also strap bombs to their vest and actively target commuter buses, cafes and such like. (Often with celebrations in the streets upon "success" of larger such missions) That's what actively targeting civilians looks like - it really is not unlike what Russia is doing in Ukraine, though on a different scale.

Sure, Israeli military accepts a lot of collateral damage, but then places like Gaza are exceedingly crowded and organisations like Hamas try to use it to their advantage. This means that when things call for a military resolution, the options of a clean war are... Quite simply not present.

Quotethe palestinian people are the losers here, as always. there will be no winners.

Kind-of. They do get some say in how their society is run. Were they more active in rooting out their extremists, jihadists and other such elements, then they'd likely have a more stable society with more peaceful borders. Places like Jordan seem to manage somehow.

Sure, there are people who do not want to be complicit and therefore move - there are others who do not want to be complecit, but have to remain, but do let us not forget that third group, who, with varying degrees of loudness, do their cultural equivalent of raising a glass every time a terrorist from "their" side finds a target - whatever it may be.

Quote from: billy rubin on October 13, 2023, 12:57:16 PMthe only difference between hamas and the likud is that hamas did it in one day while.tge israelis have been doing it for 56 years.

theres no moral high ground on any side anymore. both hamas and the official israeli policy is to act with bestial violence and disregard for innocents.

the palestinian people are the losers here, as always. there will be no winners.

I thought Iran wins 'cause there'll be no advancement of Israeli/Saudi... chumminess.

Quote from: Asmodean on October 13, 2023, 01:15:34 PM

Quote from: billy rubin on October 13, 2023, 12:57:16 PMthe only difference between hamas and the likud is that hamas did it in one day while.tge israelis have been doing it for 56 years.

This is untrue. There have been attacks against Israel by militants from Palestinian territories for at least as long as I can remember. There have also been periods of Israeli territorial expansions.

Actually, this reminds me of this political drama from when I was a teenager, where it was said something to the tune of;

- What do you call a society that has to live with the idea that a cafe you sit in could blow up at any moment?
- Israel.

Mainstream "light entertainment" of Left-ish political alignment was onto it what, 20 years ago? (Maybe more - I have the name of the show on the tip of my tongue, but can't for the life of me remember so I can look it up properly) No, Hamas did not do it in a day. and by "Hamas," I don't mean the name - I mean the people.

This also speaks to your later points, so... Situationally-wise, as TV quotes go.

Quotetheres no moral high ground on any side anymore. both hamas and the official israeli policy is to act with bestial violence and disregard for innocents.

This is debatable. Islamic militants tend not to differentiate between Israeli civilians and combatants. For example, their rockets are not far from just being lobbed across the border, preferably in a direction of a major settlement, to land wherever they may. Some also strap bombs to their vest and actively target commuter buses, cafes and such like. (Often with celebrations in the streets upon "success" of larger such missions) That's what actively targeting civilians looks like - it really is not unlike what Russia is doing in Ukraine, though on a different scale.

Sure, Israeli military accepts a lot of collateral damage, but then places like Gaza are exceedingly crowded and organisations like Hamas try to use it to their advantage. This means that when things call for a military resolution, the options of a clean war are... Quite simply not present.

Quotethe palestinian people are the losers here, as always. there will be no winners.

Kind-of. They do get some say in how their society is run. Were they more active in rooting out their extremists, jihadists and other such elements, then they'd likely have a more stable society with more peaceful borders. Places like Jordan seem to manage somehow.

Sure, there are people who do not want to be complicit and therefore move - there are others who do not want to be complecit, but have to remain, but do let us not forget that third group, who, with varying degrees of loudness, do their cultural equivalent of raising a glass every time a terrorist from "their" side finds a target - whatever it may be.

it is completely true

for every israeli infant slaughtered on saturday, there are 20 palestinian infants dying in incubators right now in gaza because there is no electricity in the hospital.

for every israeli shot in a cafe in israel, there are 20 palestinians shot down in the street.

what do you call a nation whose citizens and military shoot an  innocent father and son for attending the funeral of a family member also shot down?

you call them israelis.

there is no excuse for terrorism. but both sides in this affair have bloody hands, and we are watching the next gereation of suicide bombers being radicalized right now.

by israel.

Quote from: billy rubin on October 13, 2023, 01:43:14 PMwhat do you call a nation whose citizens and military shoot an  innocent father and son for attending the funeral of a family member also shot down?

Overly cautious.
Though I'm not surrounded people baying for my extermination, so perhaps not overly.

What do you call the nation that did the collateral murder and still seeks to punish the truth speaker?

Quote from: billy rubin on October 13, 2023, 01:43:14 PMit is completely true

If you would be so kind as to read the response before in turn responding to it..?

I'm far from interested in being propagandized to.

EDIT: I guess I should clarify the point of contention a little bit;

Quote from: billy rubin on October 13, 2023, 12:57:16 PMthe only difference between hamas and the likud is that hamas did it in one day while.tge israelis have been doing it for 56 years.

This is at best inaccurate, or a lie as I think is most likely*, or at worst deliberate attempt at propaganda. Hamas did not do "it" in a day. The current escalation is not a new conflict. To imply that they did and/or that it somehow is is... Well, it's what we in the Ukraine war debate circles like to think of as "Vatnik cope." (*Basically, trying to be clever with one's in this case timelines to misrepresent events to best suit one's own personal/political/national agenda)

Beyond that, there is an argument to be made for the Israeli moral ground being far closer to "Western values" than whatever Hamas claims - the converse may be true in parts of the Arab world, but the differences are there... Etc. I'm now back to the "please read the damned reply."

You know what, fuck it! Here's an EDIT to my EDIT. I was not going to because I don't like accusing people of willingly trying to mislead, but at this point...

Quote from: billy rubin on October 13, 2023, 01:43:14 PMfor every israeli infant slaughtered on saturday, there are 20 palestinian infants dying in incubators right now in gaza because there is no electricity in the hospital.

Yeah. Because Hamas just did that one-little-thing on that one-little-day, then took a vacation.

My man, what in the actual fuck?!

i dont read long posts, asmo.

i have limited time, so i am forced to practice concision.

I will side with Billy in this debate. The Israelis have, over the last 50 years, hammered the Palestine people and stolen their land and treated the Palestinians like dirt. What we have in that area of the world is something akin to Apartheid.

Not to forgive the Hamas lunatics for their murderous behavior. There is enough blame to go around. I suspect that the majority of the Palestinians favor peace and just want to be left alone. Their religion does make space for murderers and saboteurs. Allah has given them instructions to destroy infidels while half the world has damned the Jews.

The Jews are to be given a free pass for their anger but not for murdering defenseless Muslims. The Jews have been persecuted for hundreds of years and hated by near sighted observers. Everybody has an axe to grind.

 

Quote from: Icarus on October 14, 2023, 06:18:36 AMI will side with Billy in this debate. The Israelis have, over the last 50 years, hammered the Palestine people and stolen their land and treated the Palestinians like dirt. What we have in that area of the world is something akin to Apartheid.

Not to forgive the Hamas lunatics for their murderous behavior. There is enough blame to go around. I suspect that the majority of the Palestinians favor peace and just want to be left alone. Their religion does make space for murderers and saboteurs. Allah has given them instructions to destroy infidels while half the world has damned the Jews.

The Jews are to be given a free pass for their anger but not for murdering defenseless Muslims. The Jews have been persecuted for hundreds of years and hated by near sighted observers. Everybody has an axe to grind.

 

Agreed.

There were interviewing civilians in Gaza a couple of days ago. One old chap who had lived most of his life in this shit storm was saying that Hamas were their fighters and would destroy Israel and they would go home. They are living on cloud cuckoo land. :(

Hamas 2017 charter (https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/hamas-2017-document-full)

This is how Hamas want to be seen. There was a 1988 charter that was revised in 2017.

40 percent of the people in gaza are under the age of 14.

hamas was elected to power in 2007. there have been no elections in gaza since.

sorry, folks. this whole thing bothers me immensely.

here's whats going on, as i see it.

israel, under the lie that they are only after hamas, seems to be setting up gaza for a mass evacuation, to egypt, probably. the way they will do it is to create a humanitarian crisis that will force the palestinians from gaza and then israel can forbid their return.

they did this in 1948, when they cleared israel proper, and in 1967, when they occupied the west bank and forced southern palestinians into gaza.

the whole plan that israel has is to get rid of the palestinian problem-- no two-state solution, no palestiniain integration into israeli society. take their land, drive them out, get rid of them--egypt, jordan, lebanon, they dont care. make them homeless and stateless, and living in an arab state. if they can accomplish this, all israel then has to do then is forbid their return. egypt sees this obvious ploy, and is reluctant to receive any palestinians.

the israeli stategy will not work anyway, because the arabs are all still tribal peoples, and hate the palestinians, as they all hate each other. there will be no palestinian integration into any arab state. the palestinians will remain nominal refugees no matter where they are, although none of them will ever have lived in their homeland.

the critical result is that isael is now breeding a new generation of palestinian suicide bombers, today. 40 percent of the people in gaza are kids, who have never known a country, never known peace, have never known an isaeli that wasnt an enemy, and have no jobs, no prospects, no lives, and nothing to lose. israel apparently thinks that it can just kill them all, although 75 years of failures shows that that is a futile goal.

inthe short term, israel hopes to oppress the palestinians into non-existence, and has tried repeatedly over the years to accomplish it. it fails, every time, and things fester, and now have gotten much worse.

right now we are seeing the suicide bombers of the 2030s being prepared.

there has to be a solution in palestine that doesnt require either the israelis or the palestinians to be exterminated. there hasnt been an election in gaza since 2006, so the palestinians there have had no voice in their governance since before most of them were born.. the israelis elected the current right-wing government of israel, so the citizenry there bear responsibility for its actions.

its a fucking mess, and nothing happening right now in gaza is going to make it the slightest bit better.

Quote from: billy rubin on October 14, 2023, 10:07:44 PMsorry, folks. this whole thing bothers me immensely.

here's whats going on, as i see it.

The whole business of setting up modern Israel seems to be wrong, inviting the diaspora to return to a crowded region.  It was though.

You seem to see it with one eye, you don't mention what motivates each of the Jewish reprisals.

If you attack expect a greater reprisal, because your people aren't worth as much as their people.

Quote from: The Magic Pudding.. on October 14, 2023, 11:54:01 PM

Quote from: billy rubin on October 14, 2023, 10:07:44 PMsorry, folks. this whole thing bothers me immensely.

here's whats going on, as i see it.

The whole business of setting up modern Israel seems to be wrong, inviting the diaspora to return to a crowded region.  It was though.

You seem to see it with one eye, you don't mention what motivates each of the Jewish reprisals.

If you attack expect a greater reprisal, because your people aren't worth as much as their people.

of course im aware of what motivates the jews.

as opposed to the israelis. you are aware of the difference?

there are arab israelis,who under apartheid are second class citizens in their own country.

the jewish israelis have suffered great atrocities at the hands of pitiless arab foes. they are outnumbered and hated.

when attacked, they are delighted to reciprocate with savagery in kind, as shown today, in gaza. they have a government and international allies to look to for support.

but where do the hundreds of thousands of child residents of gaza look to? to what government can they appeal to for protection? where can they look for representstion? nowhere.

there are no innocent parties in this war, only triumphant terrorists, on both sides.

there needs to be a solution that does not involve genocide, whether jewish or arab. there has to be a stable order to work towards. not death, not extermionation, not apartheid.

those who do not see that,  are part of the problem. it hasnt been solved in 75 years.

what will be the solution? there will be one, for good or for ill.

sorry if this seems inflammatory. i am astonished that some people seem unable to understand the basic politics involved in this.

its not hard to see. its been the same for decades.

It would be nice if the whole Partition business hadn't happened. Then again, the peoples of that region have been killing each other for Millenia.

none of the people dying there today have been killing anybody for millenia.

evrry man, woman, and child there today dies his own personal death.

the past is ancient history. the solutions need to be in present time.

Quote from: billy rubin on October 15, 2023, 03:04:29 AMnone of the people dying there today have been killing anybody for millenia.

evrry man, woman, and child there today dies his own personal death.

the past is ancient history. the solutions need to be in present time.

I know that. It's a feature of the region, sick as that may be.

a perspective on why that is:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/14/gaza-lost-generation-conditioned-to-worship-death-israel?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

This makes interesting reading and filled in some historical details.

Zionism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism)

The history of the conflict is interesting. And I agree with Billy that the ultimate aim of the Jewish/Israeli state, the Zionist state, is the removal of all in internal threats to its existence. The current aim is to clear all of the Palestinians it can from northern Gaza across Wadi Gaza. Then they will erase northern Gaza. They will not stop until there isn't a living soul in that area or they perceive the damage they are doing to their external support outweighs the benefit.

Israel will not allow another Holocaust. Hamas simple do not realise or appreciate this. There is no real future for any Palestinian in Israel.

Did America warn the civilian citizens of Hiroshima, Nagasaki or Tokyo they were about to obliterate them?
Did the Allies warn the civilian citizens of Hamburg they were about to bomb them to oblivion?
Did the Germans warn the civilian citizens of London and Coventry they were about to attack them?
Did Hamas warn the civilian citizens of Israel before it attacked?
Did Bin Ladin warn the civilian citizens of New York before it attacked?
Did the Nazi's warn the Jews they were going to try to exterminate them?
History is full with examples of civilian populations being murdered without warning.

Israel has warned the civilian citizens of Gaza that it is going to attack Gaza and to get out before it attacks. Can anybody remember such a thing being done before? I can't.

israel warns them to leave, then prevents them from leaving. the borders are closed. by israel.

then israel rockets the evacuation route, killing 70 people trying to evacuate, yesterday, i think?

israel waited a bit, then rocketed the responding ambulances and EMTs.

make your own assessments of how israel facilitates the safety of palestinian civilians:

(https://i.imgur.com/ceajJMhl.jpg)

According to the vid here, the Brits have some culpability for the sad state of Palestinian reality.

This video has a pro Palestine bent. If this is historically true, then we may have gotten the shoe on the wrong foot.

Whatever your hindsight-position may be, today Israel is a sovereign nation. It has been attacked by a militant Islamist organisation. In my opinion, this means that they must defend their citizens as a matter of course. I'm actually mildly impressed by their warning for the non-combatants to leave and how they've refrained from deploying a large-scale counter-invasion this long, thereby - intentionally or otherwise - actually allowing for some form of evacuation of Northern Gaza to take place.

Quote from: billy rubin on October 15, 2023, 10:54:14 PMmake your own assessments of how israel facilitates the safety of palestinian civilians:

(https://i.imgur.com/ceajJMhl.jpg)

I'm sorry, how Israel facilitates the safety of Someone else's civilians? Israel's duty is to its own civilians above all other concerns. Is it not up to Palestinian authorities, a joke though they are, to facilitate the safety of Palestinians?

If you mean as a matter of military operations specifically, well, it seems like their strategy is working - as your statistic points out, this current escalation claimed more Israeli lives than any other for the last three quarters of a century. That's a lot of years of comparative success in their mandate as a nation's military force.

Quote from: Icarus on October 16, 2023, 04:06:54 AMAccording to the vid here, the Brits have some culpability for the sad state of Palestinian reality.

This video has a pro Palestine bent. If this is historically true, then we may have gotten the shoe on the wrong foot.

No, no, no.
We were just getting over the Romans and the bloody Northmen came and traumatised us.
Ever since then we've been suffering from a psychological condition I haven't made up a name for yet.
So it's all Asmo's fault really.

Quote from: The Magic Pudding.. on October 16, 2023, 09:06:11 AMSo it's all Asmo's fault really.

The Asmo is positively basking in His own Evilness.

...Attributed or otherwise...

:frolic:

Quote from: Asmodean on October 16, 2023, 07:42:18 AMWhatever your hindsight-position may be, today Israel is a sovereign nation. It has been attacked by a militant Islamist organisation. In my opinion, this means that they must defend their citizens as a matter of course. I'm actually mildly impressed by their warning for the non-combatants to leave and how they've refrained from deploying a large-scale counter-invasion this long, thereby - intentionally or otherwise - actually allowing for some form of evacuation of Northern Gaza to take place.

Quote from: billy rubin on October 15, 2023, 10:54:14 PMmake your own assessments of how israel facilitates the safety of palestinian civilians:

(https://i.imgur.com/ceajJMhl.jpg)

I'm sorry, how Israel facilitates the safety of Someone else's civilians? Israel's duty is to its own civilians above all other concerns. Is it not up to Palestinian authorities, a joke though they are, to facilitate the safety of Palestinians?

If you mean as a matter of military operations specifically, well, it seems like their strategy is working - as your statistic points out, this current escalation claimed more Israeli lives than any other for the last three quarters of a century. That's a lot of years of comparative success in their mandate as a nation's military force.

well, asmo, i dont know what to say.

at what point does bestial violence become acceptable to otherwise civilized onlookers like you and me?

when a band of nihilistic arabs consumate the murder of the israelis who have oppressed their families for generations?

or when the israelis expand their righteous vengeance and murder thousands of arabs, most of them children, who have never known any other life and know nothing of politics?

there is no cleverly parsed assignment of responsibility here.

only people dying who have never known any other reality.

is it time to finally stamp out the evil, and kill off those who wont accept a servile and cowering existence?

or perhaps might there be a solution that doesnt involve thousands more dead in a never-ending cycle of violence?

you have a lot of opinion in this matter.

tell me your solution.

Quote from: billy rubin on October 17, 2023, 01:24:25 AMwell, asmo, i dont know what to say.

at what point does bestial violence become acceptable to otherwise civilized onlookers like you and me?

This is a very good question. Perhaps the right question, even.

I would say that as a nation, when faced with a group aiming for your destruction or to bring harm to your citizens within your own borders... Yeah. You fight. Fight not with the goal of re-stabilizing the situation, but first and foremost, of removing the threat.

Quotewhen a band of nihilistic arabs consumate the murder of the israelis who have oppressed their families for generations?

or when the israelis expand their righteous vengeance and murder thousands of arabs, most of them children, who have never known any other life and know nothing of politics?

Personally, I see three decisive outcomes for ending (Well, not really. "Diminishing" might be more descriptive) that particular conflict: No Israel, no Palestine or no militant Islamists in Palestine. While I would prefer the latter, I think the practical choice is between the two former, and then I'm not shy about saying that from the position of my values and wishes for the world, I would much rather have an Israel on the map of the Middle East than I would Palestine. I don't think both is possible at this point.

Quotethere is no cleverly parsed assignment of responsibility here.

only people dying who have never known any other reality.

No, this post I'm responding to right now is a good take. It's not as simple as "everything is X's fault," so I, for one, try to approach the situation from the position of today. What are the standing realities? How are they most- or least likely to be resolved? Who, if any-one, would I support?

Quoteyou have a lot of opinion in this matter.

tell me your solution.

I doubt you will like my idea. It basically involves no more autonomous Gaza. Of course, if you set it up against option 2, which is pretty damned close to genocide, it suddenly becomes far less bleak. Option 3 is... More of this. "Forever."

Quote from: billy rubin on October 17, 2023, 01:24:25 AMthere is no cleverly parsed assignment of responsibility here.

only people dying who have never known any other reality.

 :this:

This should be shared far and wide. I am going to use this.

Indeed, though without a solution, it's just an observation of reality. A good one, to be sure, but of unfortunately-little use for that.

Yes. People who "never" knew different are dying in large numbers. And..?

The international law is not worth the paper it is written on in this conflict - nor any conflict where one or several parties simply do not care.

The appeals to the better nature of humanity are so much wasted breath because that better nature is too easily beaten down and subdued by real people, living real lives in a "constant" life-or-death situation.

The international condemnation is hollow;
"I condemn this."
"Well fucking good for you, then."

What else besides siding with the party you'd rather see win - or being effectively useless - is there?

The death toll statistics look pretty bad. However since WW-II the death toll amongst civilians (caused by military actions) have always been much higher than the military death toll. I assume that death toll statistics of the US and Russian military actions (in Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc.) are equally bad or even worse.     

Quote from: Asmodean on October 17, 2023, 11:29:46 AMWhat else besides siding with the party you'd rather see win - or being effectively useless - is there?

I enjoy throwing imaginary passed used date fruits and vegetables at the think they knows.
"siding with the party you'd rather see win"
You'll be following sports next.

We've seen a vid with a pro Palestine bent. For good measures here is one with a pro Israel bent.

Damn good link Tom. The talker is Ben Shapiro, an American right wing rabble rouser. The history lesson should be useful for most of us........that is, if Shapiro is teaching us the actual history. He is not always truthful but I suspect that this commentary is fairly accurate.

I appreciate the history lesson. On the other hand I dislike Shapiro immensely because he talks too god damned fast. In fact I would take some consolation by using a pair of pliers to squash his tongue.  Then maybe he could slow down and speak in a less staccato way.  I reckon that this dude is plenty educated and smart. His delivery however causes some of us to think that he is talking down to us....which he probably is.  I suspect that he may be qualified to do so.

I am going out to my garage. I will look into the tool box to find a large pair of pliers, just in case I happen to find Shapiro.

I have read somewhere that in 1907 the British encouraged Jews to migrate to Israel.   British army forces were dispatched to that part of the world to help Jews settle in "the promised land". Shapiro did not mention that part of the deal.....if it was actually a part of hundred year history.

I don't dislike Shapiro. He just talks too fast and has some religious ideas that I don't agree with. As long as he doesn't speak about religion, his points of view are worthwhile to listen too. That doesn't mean that you have to agree with them.

Quote from: The Magic Pudding.. on October 18, 2023, 11:54:34 AMYou'll be following sports next.

Nah. I generally care little about things that don't affect me and/or fail to entertain.

I do follow some sports in a coincidental manner - if biathlon is on, for example, or competitive archery/shooting, I'm not unlikely to half-heartedly watch it, though I care little for who wins what.

My stakes in the Israeli-Hamas conflict are far more personal. I'd rather see the people who harbor me no ill will come out ahead of the ones who do. "No" Israeli has a reason, a religious mandate or the inclanation to do me harm, the occasional psychopath excluded. Comparatively speaking, "a lot" of Palestinians cannot say the same.

Time to time images are projected on the Sydney Opera House sails.
The whippersnapper state premier refused to do it for the kings coronation, I thought it petty of him.

So they project an Israeli flag, I think.
Why? Wouldn't doves be better, you know Israel is going to reply to nasty with NASTY.  I very much don't like my opera house being made a target.

The federal opposition leader derided the foreign minister for urging Israel to act with restraint.  Strange guy, doesn't help that he looks like Voldemort.

Stoke my hate Peter

QuoteE&OE

Thank you very much, Mr Speaker.

I want to thank the Prime Minister for his words and the discussions we've been involved in this morning in relation to the substance of the motion.

It's remarkable that this attack on the 7th of October was just a total act of sheer barbarity.

The images, the shocking betrayal, the interpretation of what took place means that no longer can the sympathisers of these murderous terrorists call them 'freedom fighters'.

No longer can the apologists of this death cult claim they have a just and noble cause.

What occurred nine days ago was the embodiment of evil.

And the abhorrent acts of Hamas' inhumanity have been evident for the world to see:

Missiles raining down on Israeli cities.

Militants invading Israeli territory.

A massacre of young people at a music festival.

Civilians gunned down in their cars, fired upon while fleeing, and executed in the streets after surrendering.

Women being raped, stripped naked, and dragged and displayed through the streets.

Lifeless and mutilated bodies being paraded on the back of utilities.

Mothers and fathers riddled with bullets as they used their bodies to cover their children in a final act of bravery.

Jihadists cheering over the dead bodies of Israeli soldiers.

Babies being beheaded.

We pray for all of those innocent people who have been abducted and are currently being held as hostages and taken to Gaza – especially the elderly and the children.

The monsters of Hamas will continue to use them as human shields.

The images that we saw over the weekend of a Hamas militant nursing toddlers who had been abducted from Israel.

And if we needed any more convincing of Hamas' unashamed sadism, it's the glee they have displayed in stating that they will film and post online the execution of those little boys and girls, of men and women, of survivors from the Holocaust.

We know, Mr Speaker, that more than one thousand Israelis are dead. Thousands more are wounded.

As others have observed, October 7 was Israel's September 11.

It was, with great shame, the greatest loss of life, of Jewish life, on a single day since the end of the Holocaust.

It was the most major attack on Israel since Yom Kippur War of 1973.

Let us be under no misapprehension about the nature of the attack:

Like Russia's invasion of Ukraine, Hamas' invasion of Israel was unprovoked, it was unjust and it was absolutely unacceptable.

And let us be under no misapprehension about Hamas' intent from this point:

It has no desire for a peaceful two-state solution.

Its actions were just designed to derail the peace process. Hamas wants to remove Israel from the map, drive people of Jewish faith into the sea.

The Coalition joins with every other person of decent humanity in condemning this attack by Hamas militants on Israel.

Israel has every right to exist.

Israel has every right to defend itself and its people.

Israel has every right to deter future attacks and other acts of aggression, of coercion and of interference.

And the Coalition supports – and proudly supports – Israel's right to do what is necessary and needed in the circumstances with every asset available to safeguard its sovereignty, to bolster its borders, to protect its people, and to thwart threats it now faces – the existential threats.

There must be no restraint shown to those who showed no restraint themselves in committing these vicious and vile acts of terrorism.

I had the honour of speaking, the other day, to the Australian Resident Ambassador of Israel, to his Excellency Amir Maimon.

I say to him and to Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, to the people of Israel enduring their darkest hours:

The Coalition wishes you swift success in a war you did not choose, but a war which you are compelled to fight.

Mr Speaker, the events unfolding abroad are disturbing for many Australians who have close ties to Israel and Palestine.

Some Australians will have family and friends caught up on both sides of this horrible conflict.

Let me make this important point:

Events abroad must be no justification for rising tensions within our own communities.

It is particularly repugnant that some Australians have decided to take to the streets to celebrate Hamas' attack on Israel and the slaughter of innocent Israeli children, women and men.

We heard an odious barrage of comments at the attacks describing them – in our country – as a 'day of pride' and a 'day of victory'.

Moreover, the rally which occurred on the evening of Monday the 9th of October at the Sydney Opera House was an abomination and a day of shame for our nation.

Australia's Jewish community were unable to gather at our iconic landmark – which to the credit of the New South Wales Government had been illuminated in blue and white, as a sign of support.

They wanted to be there to mourn loved ones – loved ones who had been lost – or to express their solidarity.

The anti-Israel protesters fired flares, they burnt an Israeli flag at that moment, and they shouted with words that we should never hear in our country, or anywhere else in the civilised world: 'gas the Jews', 'F*** the Jews' and 'F*** Israel'.

That was the depth of the sentiment and that is the reason, Mr Speaker, that we gather here today to condemn those comments.

Such behaviour...

[Interjection]

I won't stop saying it.

I'll take the interjection – I won't stop saying it, because it should be condemned!

The words should never have been said in the first place!

And shame on you, shame on you, for condoning those words or suggesting that those words shouldn't be condemned in this place.

I won't stop saying it.

I won't stop saying them – and the Jewish community here in Australia deserves to hear you condemn them as well.

That behaviour is a stain on the Australian character, Mr Speaker, and a flagrant disregard of human decency.

Australians who watched the footage of these seething mobs and their sordid behaviour did not recognise their fellow countrymen.

I joined with great pride, 10,000 Australians at Dover Heights last Wednesday for a Jewish Community Vigil.

The pain of events abroad was palpable.

As you looked into the audience of people of Jewish faith, people of other faiths, people of no faith – there to provide support to Australians.

It was raw.

The tears of young girls, from grandmothers – striking.

But most concerningly, those Australians of Jewish faith who were gathered, and I could see the anxiety in their eyes.

I could see that they were frightened.

Mr Speaker, Australia is not without its anti-Semitic elements.

Both sides of politics have fought back against it, as we have every other form of politically motivated violence.

But the rally at Sydney Opera House escalated that anti-Semitism to another level.

We have to recognise that because the impact it has had on the Jewish community here in Australia will take a lot to undo.

We need to understand that level of anxiety in the Jewish community at present.

Jewish parents are concerned about their children wearing their Jewish school uniform in public – in our country!

Jewish people are apprehensive about their safety when visiting a Jewish supermarket or practising their faith at a synagogue.

Not because of something they've done or said, but because of who they are, because of their faith, because of their heritage, because of their belief.

That's the reason they're worried about their children being targeted in indiscriminate attacks.

That they might be identified by their school uniform that they wear.

That is the sentiment running deep within the Jewish community here in our country today.

And the purpose of this statement, of this motion before the House, is to recognise those dreadful attacks and the impact it's having, psychologically, on people in our country.

Our wonderful Jewish community needs to know that their security is being taken seriously – both at a federal level and the state levels.

I support in the strongest possible terms the Prime Minister's announcement during the course of his remarks today of funding to provide support, particularly to the Jewish community, to bolster security, to make sure that those children can go to school safely, that people in places of gathering can do so with safety, first and foremost, and the sanctity of their activities preserved.

Mr Speaker:

Many Australians are passionate about the events abroad because of their past, because of the history, because of existing ties to the Middle East.

And we respect every view.

But we're Australians first and foremost.

And a reason for the success of Australia's social cohesion is our social contract as Australians.

Under that social contract, we do not allow the problems of other parts of the worlds to manifest in our communities.

We keep resentment and anger at bay through the self-command of our character.

Many protesters in recent days have undermined our social contract.

I encourage faith and multicultural leaders in Australia to call for calm and especially to condemn any abuse or acts which are an incitement to violence.

And many of them – to their great credit – have done exactly that.

Some leaders, though, have chosen to remain silent instead of voicing their disapproval.

And their silence is, frankly, contemptible.

To any Australian who incites or chooses violence, know that you will face the full force of the law.

Let me reiterate the sentiments I made last week without any hesitation or reservation:

People who are non-citizens, here in our country, on visas, and who are engaged in vile anti-Semitic behaviour – who are inciting violence, or who choose violence – should have their visas cancelled and be promptly deported from our country.

Had those comments be made abroad, it is clear that a decision maker within the Department of Home Affairs would not have granted a visa to come to our country in the first place.

Why would there be contention about cancelling a visa of a non-citizen conducting themselves, in making public commentary about anti-Semitic conduct or behaviour or inciting violence or choosing violence?

There should be no doubt about the swift course of action required, and I encourage the Minister for Home Affairs to not hesitate in exercising her powers as needed in our national interest.

If we are to maintain the social cohesion for which we are known, then we must have zero tolerance for behaviours which are frankly intolerable.

With Israel undertaking military operations in Gaza in response to Hamas' acts of terrorism, there have been – and will continue to be – civilian casualties, tragically, on the Palestinian side, and Hamas knows that.

They knew that there would be retaliation for these grotesque acts of terrorism.

They knew that the Israelis would respond, and they knew through their actions that it would result directly in the loss of the lives of people on the Gaza Strip, and elsewhere.

Hamas' tactic of using civilian infrastructure as military headquarters, as storage facilities for weapons, and as part of battlefield operations speaks to who they are.

If we're looking for an equivalence to Hamas – to their culture, to their conduct – look no further than ISIS.

This Parliament has joined together over a long period of time. We've committed troops to parts of the world, including Afghanistan, to fight back against the depravity of ISIS – their treatment of women, of young girls, the way in which they have slaughtered people without a single hesitation.

Hamas is the equivalent of ISIS.

Mr Speaker, Israel, of course, is doing its utmost to forewarn civilians and minimise casualties.

As the Prime Minister said wisely before, Australians who are in the region should take the advice of our Prime Minister and depart if that's appropriate for them in the circumstances, but take the offer if you've asked for it and it's available to you.

The situation clearly is and will deteriorate further.

Mr Speaker, we know that there are some commentators who continue to try and find moral equivalence in the actions of the Israel Defence Forces with Hamas' terrorism, and it should be utterly condemned.

Australia stood with Ukraine when it was subjected to the barbarity of an invader.

And let us today, as a Parliament, demonstrate that Australia stands with our long-standing ally, our dedicated partner, our dear friend in the fight against terrorism: Israel, in its hour of need.

Let us show the Israeli people and Jewish communities here in Australia that they have our support and our solidarity.

Mr Speaker, 75 years ago the nation of Israel was born.

The Jewish people finally had a place which was theirs.

The Jewish story, as we know, is one of every trial and tribulation: of privation, of enslavement, of wandering, of subjugation, persecution and exile, of dispersion, of massacre, of Holocaust: the gassing of 6 million people.

But, most importantly, the Jewish story today is one of survival – and it always will be.

It's a story of achievement from adversity, of triumph from tragedy.

It's a story which is committed to the collective Jewish memory, and it is the Jewish memory of prevailing over tragedy, and that Jewish spirit we know so well in many of our friends and fellow Australians, which will see Israel again succeed through these darkest of days.

I commend the Government for bringing this motion to the House and I look forward to the contributions on both sides because this is a moment for us to stand with people who have been subjected to the most abhorrent acts at the hands of a terrorist organisation.

We stood in this place, in the aftermath of the 9/11 attacks on the United States.

We've stood in this place and we've condemned the terrorist attacks in France, in Germany and elsewhere – and we do that again, today.

[ends]

nature red in tooth and claw.

in other news, the israelis have allwed 20 trucks into gaza with supplies.

two of them carry water. at two million palestinian non-combatants to supply, thats one-millionth of a  truckload each.

one truck can carry about twenty metric tons, so that works out about four litres per 100 people, i think.

They need about 100 trucks per day when local water supplies are available.

the official israei line is that they have declared war on hamas, perhaps two thousand soldiers and political members?

however, what they have actually done is declare war on two million helpless and unarmed palestinian civilians.

so far the score is about 1400 israeli civilians killed, maybe 100 military?

something like 1500 hamas military killed, and 4800 palestinians civilians, mostly women and children.

in the west bank, i have read that the israeli settlers have murdered an additional 1280 palestinian civilians since 07 october.

i had great sympathy for the israeli people at one time. no longer. their actions are leading me to the conclusion that the best solution for a lasting peace in the middle east is the ending of the state of israel. i very much want to avoid this conclusion, but it is becoming inescapably clear that the behaviour of the state of israel, internally and externally, is a worldwide threat to peace.

this is an unpopular opinion among those in the so-called peaceful west. yet it seems unavoidably clear to me at this time.

Where did you see the figure for the Palestinian deaths on the West Bank? The BBC reported additional threats but nothing like that number of deaths.

thank you for questioning that. i posted it before i drank any coffee this morning.

i think the number correctly refers to palestinians shot and wounded by settlers and israeli soldiers, not killed, since 07 october:

QuoteIn the first eight months of 2023, the United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA) recorded a daily average of three incidents of settler attacks a day on Palestinians in the West Bank, killing and injuring Palestinians, damaging their property, and preventing them from moving to reach their lands, workplaces, families and friends.

However, what we are experiencing now is a rapid escalation of this violence. Between 1 January and 19 September 2023, Israeli settlers and forces killed 189 Palestinians in the occupied West Bank and injured 8,192. Since 7 October alone, Israeli soldiers and settlers killed 64 Palestinians, injured 1,300, and carried out 77 attacks on healthcare facilities.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/oct/21/gaza-palestinians-west-bank-violence-attacks-israeli-settlers

Quote from: billy rubin on October 21, 2023, 09:36:55 PMthank you for questioning that. i posted it before i drank any coffee this morning.

i think the number correctly refers to palestinians shot and wounded by settlers and israeli soldiers, not killed, since 07 october:

QuoteIn the first eight months of 2023, the United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA) recorded a daily average of three incidents of settler attacks a day on Palestinians in the West Bank, killing and injuring Palestinians, damaging their property, and preventing them from moving to reach their lands, workplaces, families and friends.

However, what we are experiencing now is a rapid escalation of this violence. Between 1 January and 19 September 2023, Israeli settlers and forces killed 189 Palestinians in the occupied West Bank and injured 8,192. Since 7 October alone, Israeli soldiers and settlers killed 64 Palestinians, injured 1,300, and carried out 77 attacks on healthcare facilities.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/oct/21/gaza-palestinians-west-bank-violence-attacks-israeli-settlers

Disgusting. Thank you for highlighting this.

the government in isael specifically refuses a two-state solution, preferring instead a putin-style annexation of the west bank. netinyahu doesnt want a coherent palestinian state. a stateless population of refugees that he can disenfranchise and push inbto egypt and jordan is much more to his liking, and to his government.

like it or not, that wont work. there are two m illion palestinians in gaza, some 2.5 million ? in the west bank, and some other number doing their best to live in israel under apartheid, and in jordan and elsewhere. its been 75 years since they were expelled. they will never go away. the only way through this mess to an end  is to create a palestinian state where they can live in peace and cut ties with the militants.

there are three issues that other middle east countries have with israel.

1 some arab states want the arab lands in the west bank that israel is annexing to be returned. netinyahu explicitly wants to annex the historical provinces of judea and samaria, which are now mostly the west bank

2 some arab powers have a political dispute with the creation of israel in the first place, like hamas or hezbollah.

3 some islamist states want israel to be destroyed on religious grounds

for 1, the palestinian civilians are mostly only part of the first one. many of them would happily coexist with israel, if israel would let them. they say so constantly, in between being murdered.

for 2, hamas and hezbollah dont represent most palestinians, but they have the guns and they will never go away no matter how many are killed. every time israel kills someone's mother, father, sister, or brother, they create another militant who has no regard for life. those savage arab murderers who invaded israel on 07 october didnt arise out of nowhere. israel planted their seeds and nurtured them, then reaped the resulting harvest.

for 3, iran is not arab state, but wants to re-frame the conflict in islamist terms for its own reasons of regional hegemony.

the israelis want to kill their way to peace. it hasnt worked for them for 75 years, but they havent learned anything in that time.

 ^ I believe that Billy is telling it like it is.

I don't agree with those Islamics who are obliged to use a prayer rug five times a day. What the Hell, I do not agree with those dudes with the black clothing, long beards, and funny hats either.

On the surface, it does not appear to be a religious war. On further examination, it will be easier on the conscious of the Hebrews to kill Muslims, and visa versa.

its not getting any better anytime soon 

The problems are becoming more scary every day. It appears that some other actors are threatening to enter the fray in one manner or another.

A few days ago an American Destroyer ship, in the Red sea, shot down several missiles. It was said that the missiles originated in Yemen and were thought ,or suspected, to target Israel. Missiles of Iranian origin most likely.

We have a bunch of big time warships in the Med. The Iranians are rattling their sabers again. Lebanese are trading fire with Israelis in the north, Egypt holding up shipments into Gaza while the Gaza citizens are starving. Their hospitals are running out of fuel to run their generators.......people will die needlessly.

This is a dangerous shitshow that could develop into a major conflict between several nations. Meanwhile innocent people are dying.

Too bad that this conflagration has crowded out almost all attention to the war in Ukraine. Humans are dying there too. Adding to the misery,my disfunctional House of Representatives are in no position to help us avoid another U.S.fiscal crisis. :worried: 

hamas had as its main goal the remibder that the palestinians were being ignored in tje middle east, and shpuld not be.

tbey were immensely successful

Heh... Does Hamas actually cares about the Palestinians, rather than about Hamas?

They want their caliphate.

I don't think so, since they are using their own population (children included) as human shields.

It's a common talking point in some circles - or at least, they try to talk up Islamist jihadists, terrorists and people harboring those mentioned as some kind of grass roots liberation movement.

Billy, in all seriousness, if Hamas wanted the Palestinian average-Joes to be heard rarther than hurt, they would do anything but start a war with Israel.

As an analogy, you feel oppressed and ignored, so you strap a bomb to your otherwise fetching Victorian vest, wander over to your neighbours who have been taking their liberties with what you consider to be your rightful lawn, then blow yourself into red mist. Now they'll know, talk about it and remember! Now they will return the lawn to your spouse and children! Well... No. They'll talk about it, sure, then decide that you are an evil maniac, which they will not ever let your spouse and children forget, and that the world is far better off without you, cremate what they can of the abovementioned red mist and drag them patio chairs right back to that very lawn, which may formerly have been yours, but now.... 

I agree that they've succeeded to a point, just not in the goal stated - or that it even was a legitimate goal to begin with. People listening to those Palestinian voices you mentioned today are the same people who were listening to them last month. What has changed for their plight, other than the amount of ordinance raining down on them?

what has changed is that now the world has been reminded that tbe palestinians wont go away, and that there is a problem that must br solved, or this will happen again. and again.

the abraham accords are stalled, saudi may not immediately proceed with recognizing israel, iran is emboldened, and the arab world has been reminded that israel creates problems in their region that wont go away.

talking to israel has never done a thing for palestinians. they would mostly love peace, were it available. israel does not want peace.

Quote from: Tom62 on October 24, 2023, 08:16:03 AMI don't think so, since they are using their own population (children included) as human shields.

The leader of Hamas recently pointed out that it took Russia 30 million casualties to defeat Germany. He sees things from a different perspective.

Quote from: billy rubin on October 24, 2023, 01:33:47 PMwhat has changed is that now the world has been reminded that tbe palestinians wont go away, and that there is a problem that must br solved, or this will happen again. and again.

the abraham accords are stalled, saudi may not immediately proceed with recognizing israel, iran is emboldened, and the arab world has been reminded that israel creates problems in their region that wont go away.

talking to israel has never done a thing for palestinians. they would mostly love peace, were it available. israel does not want peace.

I think Israel wants peace but only on its own terms and that does not appear to encompass the Palestinians it inherited. If the 48/49 war had not happened I don't think the Middle East would be in the shit state it is today. That started  the cycle of violence that is still going on.

Quote from: billy rubin on October 24, 2023, 01:33:47 PMwhat has changed is that now the world has been reminded that tbe palestinians wont go away, and that there is a problem that must br solved, or this will happen again. and again.

the abraham accords are stalled, saudi may not immediately proceed with recognizing israel, iran is emboldened, and the arab world has been reminded that israel creates problems in their region that wont go away.

talking to israel has never done a thing for palestinians. they would mostly love peace, were it available. israel does not want peace.

I disagree with most of the above.

No, the world was not reminded that Palestinians won't go away - if anything, the Western part was reminded of that whole do-away-with-jihad theme we've had in the early-to-mid-naughties' (most recently, that is) international relations and it may have reminded certain parts of the Arab world that they equally would like to do away with Israel.

From here, the question becomes whether or not Israel has what it takes to take Gaza, keep it and turn it into something other than breeding ground for Iranian proxy wars. I suppose on the flipside, the question is whether Hamas can manage to hold their territory, but let's face it...

What makes you assume that most Palestinians love peace? What kind of peace? Under which terms? Why do those "most palestinians" then not stamp out those elements in their society not intent on peace of "any kind" but their own? Remember, Israel did not attack Hamas - they responded to having been attacked, as is proper of a nation seeking to secure a certain standard of safety for its own citizens.

I guess what I'm saying is it may be prudent to leave reckless, sweeping generalisations to virtue-singalling celebrity airheads. Reality often has multiple variables to consider. Cultural, religious, social and economic for starters. "People are all the same" is not even a skin-deep philosophy. (Since I like analogies; a sailboat is a means of getting from A to B. Is it therefore similar to a pair of legs?)

Quote from: Tank on October 24, 2023, 02:38:24 PM

Quote from: Tom62 on October 24, 2023, 08:16:03 AMI don't think so, since they are using their own population (children included) as human shields.

The leader of Hamas recently pointed out that it took Russia 30 million casualties to defeat Germany. He sees things from a different perspective.

so far israel has killed 5800 palestinian civilians and about 1500 hamas soldiers. thats 5 dead palestnians for every israeli.

2000 dead children. i read of a dictor walking out of a destroyed medical facility with two headless children in his hands.

israel cannot win. apparently there are 30,000 regular hamas militants and 30 000 part timers. they are immune to attacks by regular troops and wont stand still to fight an israeli army anyway. if israel invades, they will slip into tbeir tunnel systems, shoot a few israelis from behind, and then disappear into sinai. israel will have captured gaza, which it has made no plans for, and the hamas fighters will simply regroup in the same way the taliban did.

nobody is addressing root causes here

Quote from: billy rubin on October 24, 2023, 03:16:47 PM...

nobody is addressing root causes here

I totally agree. And that's probably because they are just to big :(

maybe so. giving the palestinians somewhere to live that isnt under the thumb of the israelis would be a start, but israel isnt interested

Israel consists of only a small piece of land, where the Jews have been living for many centuries. Why don't their Arab neighbors give the Palestinians a place to live? Makes far more sense, because they are much, much larger than Israel and sparsely populated.

Quote from: billy rubin on October 24, 2023, 10:11:47 PMmaybe so. giving the palestinians somewhere to live that isnt under the thumb of the israelis would be a start, but israel isnt interested

And I'm not sure the Palestinians would accept that solution either. :(

Quote from: Tom62 on October 25, 2023, 07:30:54 AMIsrael consists of only a small piece of land, where the Jews have been living for many centuries. Why don't their Arab neighbors give the Palestinians a place to live? Makes far more sense, because they are much, much larger than Israel and sparsely populated.

They'd rather have an excuse to hate. By that I mean politicians and royalty always find it useful to have an enemy to blame or focus outrage on. That's why Argentina invaded the Falkland Islands in 1982.

Quote from: Tom62 on October 25, 2023, 07:30:54 AMIsrael consists of only a small piece of land, where the Jews have been living for many centuries. Why don't their Arab neighbors give the Palestinians a place to live? Makes far more sense, because they are much, much larger than Israel and sparsely populated.

Divine Right(tm), the very concept of giving away what's yours to a stranger, politics...

There are many reasons why someone would not invite someone else to share what's theirs - some are better than others, but that is a matter of perspective.

Quote from: Tom62 on October 25, 2023, 07:30:54 AMIsrael consists of only a small piece of land, where the Jews have been living for many centuries. Why don't their Arab neighbors give the Palestinians a place to live? Makes far more sense, because they are much, much larger than Israel and sparsely populated.

Dunno
Why do Moslems in need of refuge so often seek it in evil infidel countries?

Free money, scantly-clad women, whole city districts understand your language, you get to bring your ways right over and if you so choose attempt to make that hive of infidelity into precisely the kind of dump you originally escaped from...

...What's not to like?

To be a bit more generous though, I think the simple truth is that people who do migrate try to move to wherever suitable opportunities to the kind of life they want lie - even when running from war, oppression or whatever have you.

Here is an easy to watch cartoon history of the Palestine vs Israel contest. Without direct knowledge of the history there, It may seem that the artist/commentator is a tad biased toward the Israelis. If what he is telling us, is the straight up true history, then I will need to re-adjust my attitude toward the current madness.

It's not bad. Truncated and somewhat selective, but then it had to be to squeeze decades upon decades of data into eleven and a half minutes and it does touch upon many events that often get omitted in modern discourse.

hamas is recognized all over the west as a terririst organization.

what do organizations do that identifies them as terrorists?

A terrorist organisation is a non-state entity which conducts attacks specifically aimed at civilian targets.

It's not quite that simple, though a fair enough first degree approximation.

so a state can perform the same actions against civilians as a non-state entity, but it will not be a terrorist act.

Quote from: billy rubin on October 26, 2023, 03:33:18 PMso a state can perform the same actions as a terrorist entity, but it will be not a terrorist organization.

If a state of war exists between two states then neither is considered a 'terrorist' organisation. However there are nominal rules of war and should a state break those rules they could be considered a terrorist organisation. The dropping of the atomic bombs on Japan and the Allied attacks on Hamburg did little to impact directly on the war fighting capability of Japan or Germany. In that sense they could be considered primarily to 'terrorise' the leaders of those countries. So they are in a grey area. NATO, and America if operating independently, do attempt to reduce collateral civilian deaths if only for the negative PR aspects they bring. I think the Israeli response to Hamas is problematical, until I heard a rant by a member of Hamas on the BBC this morning. You'd think Hamas had done nothing at all. Frankly they are both high on hate and thus oblivious to any niceties associated to war.

here is a definition from oxford academic

Terrorism is the premeditated use or threat to use violence by individuals or subnational groups to obtain a political or social objective through the intimidation of a large audience beyond that of the immediate noncombatant victims (Enders and Sandler, 2012, p.4). The two essential ingredients of terrorism are its violence and its political or social motive.

this definition also excludes state actors from being able to commit terrorist acts.

yet the difference is merely semantic. if the united states drops nerve gas on a hospital to intimidate a non-state political rival, then the act is not terrorism, by definition. if a member of the non-state faction performs the identical act, then by definition it has become an act of terrorism.

it appears to me that the use of "terrorism" or "terrorist" to describe acts against civilians is transparent to the civilians. in one case, they are gassed by a state in an act of justifiable warfare. in the other, they are gassed by a non-state in an illegitimate act if terror.

^ Labels will not matter much to the victims who were killed.

Quote from: billy rubin on October 26, 2023, 03:33:18 PMso a state can perform the same actions against civilians as a non-state entity, but it will not be a terrorist act.

Indeed. It would be an act of war.

If there is no sufficient military justification for it, potentially even a war crime.

I think a state actor can act as a terrorist organisation, but in such cases, it's common to just escalate it to the status of war. You need not look further back than Russian invasion of Ukraine for an example. Russia insisted that it was not a war, so one could view it as an act of terror as it ticks all them boxes aside from it being a state entity behind it, but we have a better descriptor for what is actually happening, and so we use it; War.

Quote from: Asmodean on October 27, 2023, 10:08:11 AM

Quote from: billy rubin on October 26, 2023, 03:33:18 PMso a state can perform the same actions against civilians as a non-state entity, but it will not be a terrorist act.

Indeed. It would be an act of war.

Unless they own the civilians.

I wonder if Billy not doing popular culture (tv, movies) means he misses much of the discussion.  Call them a terrorist/heretic and no discussion necessary, just kill them.

In Juan of the Dead the government used term dissident.

i follow mostly print  i havent seen any videos of any of this from any part of the story.

its clear to me that neither party merits moral authority in this conflict. hamas acted with cruelty and violence towards innocent civilians, killing around 1400.

israel has responded with acts of cruelty and violence towards innocent civilians, killing around 8000 by now.

neither party has a moral right to continue, at this point. both sides are terrorists, performing acts of terroism. if that word has any meaning. i dont think it has.

so what next? israel can exterminate the palestinians, some 2 million in gaza, 5 million in their occupied homeland, dunno how many in jordan, egypt, syria and lebanon. i have listened ti interviews with israelis who want that. or drive them all out.

israel can reverse course and allow the palestinians to re-occupy their homeland, which it is currently annexing. that will be very difficult to do.

israel can return to the status quo of palestinian apartheid, and history will repeat itself, again.

one thing for sure, though. israel will grind its boot into the necks of its captive palestinian residents even harder from now on. the israelis are very good at oppression, less so at coexistence. that alone indicates to me that things will be getting worse all around as the predictable responses will be made.

Quote from: The Magic Pudding.. link=msg=430550.

what the hell was that?

remember that hospital that had a bomb hit in the parking lot  full of civilians? the israelis initially took credit on twitter, then deleted their internet post, then posted and then deleted misinformation of their own regarding the attack. i had thought that the conclusion that it was a misfired islamic jihad missile was well supported. hereis a tik tok video disputing it.

https://www.tiktok.com/@ghadighali/video/7292363261230550274?_r=1&_t=8gv8Ngw4DGB

this is tik tok, so beware. theres lots of misinformation on tiktok.

tldr: skip to 4:30 for a specific discussion of the missile attack.

i have a question that i have been trying to answer in my own mind.

if a murderer has taken refuge in an occupied public school, at what point does it become morally acceptable to bomb the entire school in order to kill the murderer?

what is the acceptable kill ratio?

Quote from: billy rubin on October 29, 2023, 07:08:40 PMi have a question that i have been trying to answer in my own mind.

if a murderer has taken refuge in an occupied public school, at what point does it become morally acceptable to bomb the entire school in order to kill the murderer?

what is the acceptable kill ratio?

What if the murderer and their family have been killing your family for generations and have a stated aim of killing your whole family whatever it takes and however long it takes? What if your family had been running from murderers like him for centuries? What if the murder had just decapitated half you grand children, raped your wife, mother and grandmother and laughed in your face while they did it. What is the friends of the murder had kidnapped your cousin and paraded her naked in the street spitting on her and then dragged her of and held her hostage? At what point do you not give a fuck whoever you have to kill to kill him?

That's the state the Israelis are in now. At the end of the day this is not a rational exchange. It's a last straw situation for them. And anyway all the kids in the school are relatives of the murder so he shouldn't have hidden there in the first place.

I'm not justifying, just offering an explaination.

you make valid points. they cannot be set aside or disputed.

but in the words of the prophet, hosea 8:7

For they have sown the wind, and they shall reap the whirlwind

in my opinion, the problem that the israelis find themselves in today is one of their own making. i make no excuses for the brutality of the hamas.

but where did the hamas come from? from the prison of gaza, where israel has begrudgingly provided minimal daily calories for the population, and calculated it in that way for years? from the west bank, which israel is annexing in defiance of international law?

from the IDF bullets that kill palestinian schoolchildren sitting at their desks in gaza classrooms? from the thousands of children blown to bits or burned alive and lying in hospital beds in gaza right now, with no anaesthetics available for their surguries and skin grafts?

from the 150 women a day giving birth to their babies in gaza, with no access to medical care because the hospitals are too busy ferrying the wounded and dying?

there are no moral superiorities in this conflict. but the palestinians suffer disproportionally and they have nothing to lose.

may i emphasize this? they have nothing to lose.

egypt, syria, and jordan did their best to kill off the jews that the first world foisted upon them after the second world war. but why werent the european jewish refugees given a homeland in gloucestershire? or provence? or nebraska? or poland, where the death camps were? why was it the innocent palestinians who were forced to pay the debts of the european genocide with their homes, farms, and lives?

did anybody ask the palestinians for their opinion?

since 1948 israel his killed ten palestinians for every dead israeli. they steal palestinian farms, murder palestinian civilians, bulldoze palestinian communities. they have done this from the start, when the isaeli supreme court ruled that the palestinians should have their lands returned.

except the IDF razed the palestinian villages before they could come back.

there is enough blame in this conflict to go around the world. but the killing, the murders, and the theft of homelands is vastly more on the part of the state of israel. there are plenty of israelis who see the final solution to the palestinian problem in just those terms.

the israelis have squandered any sympathy they used to have from me.

i have a solution, but the isarelis would refuse it. and the west would not support it, because the realpolitik is that an ascendant israel is a major tool in the great game. not a player, just a tool.

there are 500,000 israeli settlers in the occupied west bank. i say take every last one of them out, and give them the entire gaza strip to live in and rebuild as they choose. the problem of the gaza strip will disappear overnight.

take all the surviving palestinians out of gaza and relocate them to the west bank for their own state. the palestinians will finally have a homeland again, and the pressure to drive the isaelis into the sea will deflate.

the israelis will lose the biblical states of judea and samaria, but 500,000 of them will be given a space currently holding 2.3 million arabs.

the palestinians will lose gaza, but most of them have no roots there and settled in gaza after the naqquba anyway. they will no longer have access to the sea, but israel has always prevented that with their gunboats anyway.

jerusalem has some 750,000 inhabitants. make it an international protectorate, with the capital of both israel and palestine in separate districts, similar to the vatican in rome.

i dont care who is mostly to blame for this mess. my morality is 100 percent focused on the only metric i see value in, which is pain and suffering. unless there is a solution to this problem, this will continue until it eventually sparks a regional, if not world war.

nothing i have suggested will come to pass, but i guarentee that israel is not going to find peace by killing more palestinians.

I could not have written that better myself.

What I would add is British culpability in the issue from the start. This gives an insight into the early situation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration

Apparently post war the Jews were offered land in Europe but didn't feel safe there so went and lived in Palestine instead based on Zionist ideals. They were also offered land in Africa which was looked at but turned down.

And I agree that the sides are way too ingrained now for anything but slaughter for at least the next 25 years, probably more.

When this round of barbarism is over the best we can hope for is that Israel hasn't resorted to throwing nukes to defend itself from Iran.

Quote from: billy rubin on October 29, 2023, 07:08:40 PMi have a question that i have been trying to answer in my own mind.

if a murderer has taken refuge in an occupied public school, at what point does it become morally acceptable to bomb the entire school in order to kill the murderer?

what is the acceptable kill ratio?

Potentially, "any."

The international law has a provision or two to that regard, as do rules of engagement in a conventional war. However, they are booth moot if one or more warring parties simply do not care. The international community has very selective and very politically-laden jurisdiction when it comes to enforcing its "laws." At its extreme, it comes down to the individual commander trying to achieve certain objectives and his associated cost-benefit analysis. Again, at its extreme, that could be the birth of genocide.

Removed from quite such extremes, how far should a nation go in ensuring safety for its own citizens? Are there circumstances in which a nation should be willing to sacrifice a number of its own citizens to safeguard the citizens of another? What would those circumstances be if there are any? What would be an acceptable ratio of own citizens dead to another nation's citizens saved? How does that nation justify such a course of action to the very people it is there to safeguard?

I can think of military alliances as an example of that very system working, but struggle to find any good scenarios where the involved parties are on opposing sides of a war.

How could the Palestinians win this war? They could throw down their arms and give up their hostages, pick up white flags and walk out of Gaza into Israel.Every man, woman and child. What could Israel do faced with 2 million+ people? Kill them? Let them die? It won't happen but Ghandi and Mandela did similar things. Show the tyrant to be a tyrant.

I think that if the Palestinians would lay down their weapons there will be peace.
If Israel would lay down their weapons there will be genocide.

Yeah... They want their caliphate.

Or rather, it's the people who do want it who are currently in the position to dictate such matters.

Palestine had several chances to become a nation - they blew each and every one for broadly similar reasons. Well, them chicks will be a-roostin' until... Pretty much yes, until Israel turns the whole place into a sheet of glass.

Peaceful protest might have worked for them, but in the world we live in, as opposed to the world we imagine as could-and-might-have-been, there seems to be little room for progress that way.

To answer the question, yes, if people started crossing the Israeli borders without proper invitation, I suspect that huge numbers would die - to bullets, dehydration and any number of related causes. Israel would probably deploy its pretty competent and very sizable for their population military machine to bolster the border guard, and the military would do what militaries do.

At least, that's what I consider likely from the jaded hights of stark realism. Nobody is laying down their arms - they'll have to be pried from their cold, dead fingers. Probably for many generations.

Quote from: Tom62 on October 31, 2023, 01:29:13 PMI think that if the Palestinians would lay down their weapons there will be peace.
If Israel would lay down their weapons there will be genocide.

I think you could well be right.

well, i have read the hamas manifesto that tank posted, and frankly it seems completely justifiable to me. i dont see any mention of a regional caliphate, of the type isis and al quaeda tried to impose.

what i see is hamas rejecting the imposition of a state of israel upon ordinary residents of palestine, a last blow of the dying imperialist west upon a subject colony, performed to assuage their collective guilt over their persecution of the jews by forcing some other persecuted people to pay the price.

the hamas manifesto is strident in tone, but i cannot find fault with anything they say. israel is a state created by an illegitimate process of post war imperialism, and its victims cannot be blamed for objecting.

but none of this matters. unless there is a sea change and israel disappears or the palestinians do, nothing is going to change unless there is a world war.

i dont see any international consensus on changing the status quo unless the world sees israel as more of a threat than a useful tool. even then israel will not go quietly. nor will the palestinians.

one of these days someone will slip the palestinians enough plutonium to build a dirty bomb, and then the pin ball will take off on a completely new trajectory.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btVFgqkgkzw

A long video about whether the Jews stole the Palestinian territory..........or not.
These arguments are subject to further investigation.

Quote from: billy rubin on October 31, 2023, 09:07:49 PMwhat i see is hamas rejecting the imposition of a state of israel upon ordinary residents of palestine, a last blow of the dying imperialist west upon a subject colony, performed to assuage their collective guilt over their persecution of the jews by forcing some other persecuted people to pay the price.

I could understand "the dying imperialist west" having sympathy for Jews, but why guilt?
Post WW2 those with the whip hand hadn't conducted the holocaust, they'd ended it.

Why..? I think the simplest explanation is that Hamas construct their message out of their ass, which necessitates it being full of exactly what you would expect. :smilenod:

If it reads like propaganda, it probably is.

Quote from: The Magic Pudding.. on November 01, 2023, 07:02:33 AM

Quote from: billy rubin on October 31, 2023, 09:07:49 PMwhat i see is hamas rejecting the imposition of a state of israel upon ordinary residents of palestine, a last blow of the dying imperialist west upon a subject colony, performed to assuage their collective guilt over their persecution of the jews by forcing some other persecuted people to pay the price.

I could understand "the dying imperialist west" having sympathy for Jews, but why guilt?
Post WW2 those with the whip hand hadn't conducted the holocaust, they'd ended it.

centuries of european and asian persecution by everybody led to tbe holocaust being possible.

Quote from: Asmodean on November 01, 2023, 09:08:39 AMWhy..? I think the simplest explanation is that Hamas construct their message out of their ass, which necessitates it being full of exactly what you would expect. :smilenod:

If it reads like propaganda, it probably is.

 the history is spot on, im afraid.

Quote from: billy rubin on November 01, 2023, 12:10:28 PM

Quote from: The Magic Pudding.. on November 01, 2023, 07:02:33 AM

Quote from: billy rubin on October 31, 2023, 09:07:49 PMwhat i see is hamas rejecting the imposition of a state of israel upon ordinary residents of palestine, a last blow of the dying imperialist west upon a subject colony, performed to assuage their collective guilt over their persecution of the jews by forcing some other persecuted people to pay the price.

I could understand "the dying imperialist west" having sympathy for Jews, but why guilt?
Post WW2 those with the whip hand hadn't conducted the holocaust, they'd ended it.

centuries of european and asian persecution by everybody led to tbe holocaust being possible.

Or perhaps allowing the paltry words of pacifists to give sway?

Quote from: billy rubin on November 01, 2023, 12:11:02 PMthe history is spot on, im afraid.

Remember that saying about devils quoting religious texts?

Well, that one contains a gem of wisdom amid the bullshit too, most appropriately.

Hamas presents a version of history that favours (or at least is meant to) Hamas. Any self-respecting propagandist can do as much.

We should not be surprised if the Palestinians lie to us. It is just a mater of taqiyya and tawriya (https://www.meforum.org/3181/tawriya-creative-lying-islam),

- taqiyya: the Muslim doctrine that allows lying in certain circumstances, primarily when Muslim minorities live under infidel authority.

- taweiya: a doctrine that allows lying in virtually all circumstances, including to fellow Muslims and by swearing to Allah, provided the liar is creative enough to articulate his deceit in a way that is true to him.

Or as Futurama put it,

"You are technically correct. The best kind of correct."

A statement can be true and tell "none" of the story, or present the wider picture from a very specific, narrow angle while being perfectly able to withstand any scrutiny of its factuality. Manipulative language... It has a certain aspect of art to it, to be honest.

From what I can see in local media, Hamas may be looking for a ceasefire in exchange for the hostages.

I wonder if a ceasefire is a good idea for Israel though - they do need to save the hostages or at least try, but can they afford giving Hamas any breathing room?

Difficult...

In other news, our parliament is discussing whether or not to recognise the state of Palestine. Initiated by the Communists, naturally enough, but I do hope that even they have the sense to see just what symbol they prop up with such symbol politics. For instance, could it be "if you commit a large enough act of terror, then you must be a nation?" I, for one, oppose the very notion, but then when a proposal is made, it has to be discussed and voted over.

I interrupt the conversation with a question? .....................

Over a long period of time, the Jews have been persecuted and damned by societies all over the world. We have a sizable segment of our population, here in the US, that would have the Jews all transported across the sea. But the people across the sea are likely to reject them.

Why are Jews disliked by so many non Jews?

Disclaimer:  I am definitely not Jewish. My question has nothing to do with the current war in Israel.   

Hmm... I believe to have read or heard that it could have broadly the same roots as the dislike of gypsies. I think it boiled down to the settled disliking the nomad or some such, but I must admit that as reasons go, that one seems pretty hollow.

Quote from: Icarus on November 14, 2023, 11:08:02 PMI interrupt the conversation with a question? .....................

Over a long period of time, the Jews have been persecuted and damned by societies all over the world. We have a sizable segment of our population, here in the US, that would have the Jews all transported across the sea. But the people across the sea are likely to reject them.

Why are Jews disliked by so many non Jews?

Disclaimer:  I am definitely not Jewish. My question has nothing to do with the current war in Israel. 

The Jewish population is very diverse. You have very moderate Jews on one side and the extreme orthodox Jews on the other (and anything in between). Especially the orthodox Ashkenazi Jews are treated with a lot of distrust, because they have their own culture; their own beliefs, etc. They are also regarded as being very self-righteous and obnoxious.

Failure to integrate... That sounds far less hollow, actually.

There is a war of bombs and bullets and a war of propaganda being fought.
It seems unlikely Israel would take such a propaganda hit unless fighters are in/under hospitals.

Unless Hamas suckered them, pretending to be under the hospitals.

Devious

Quote from: Icarus on November 14, 2023, 11:08:02 PMWhy are Jews disliked by so many non Jews?

Success, prosperity.

I know I resent anyone more successful or prosperous than me.
What are they doing being above me, they should be below me, jabba jabba jabba jabba jabba jabba

Quote from: The Magic Pudding.. on November 15, 2023, 07:44:15 AMThere is a war of bombs and bullets and a war of propaganda being fought.
It seems unlikely Israel would take such a propaganda hit unless fighters are in/under hospitals.

Unless Hamas suckered them, pretending to be under the hospitals.

Devious

i am certain theyre under hospitals. hamas are cold blooded murderers, and digging under a hospital makes great tactical sense.

the israelis are hot blooded murderers and dont think things through as well as hamas.

both sides lie so much its hard to know the facts, but hamas has incriminated itself again and again

Quote from: billy rubin on November 15, 2023, 05:00:59 PMand dont think things through as well as hamas.

How so? There be terrorists under the hospital. You go in, do the proper blazing of guns and bursting-in-air of bombs and then - maybe no terrorists under the hospital?

It seems like the tool is suitable to the objective.

Quote from: Asmodean on November 16, 2023, 09:07:27 AM

Quote from: billy rubin on November 15, 2023, 05:00:59 PMand dont think things through as well as hamas.

How so? There be terrorists under the hospital. You go in, do the proper blazing of guns and bursting-in-air of bombs and then - maybe no terrorists under the hospital?

It seems like the tool is suitable to the objective.

Given what Hamas did in the way of PR when one of their own rockets misfired into a hospital car park earlier Israel will not use the blunt force option on this hospital. Given Hamas have had years to prepare the alleged tunnel system under the hospital they will probably have riddled it with booby traps and kill traps. It's an Israeli death trap.

That assumes a degree of tactical naïvete on the part of the Israeli armed forces, which I am hesitant to grant them.

Say you have a mined field. It's only a death trap until you blow a few cluster munitions right above it and/or roam it thoroughly with one of them spiky tractors. It won't make it safe by civilian standards, but if done well, it will be more than good enough for conducting military operations in.

Say you have a tunnel, potentially full of enemy personnel or booby traps. Collapse the roof on it, if at all possible - seal all entrances if not.

If you have the resources - and do let us remember that Israel is not fighting a guerilla war. They do have a modern, well-trained and technologically-spohisticated army - you try to deal with such issues as mines and booby traps before a mass infantry movement.

Quote from: Asmodean on November 16, 2023, 10:34:37 AMThat assumes a degree of tactical naïvete on the part of the Israeli armed forces, which I am hesitant to grant them.

Say you have a mined field. It's only a death trap until you blow a few cluster munitions right above it and/or roam it thoroughly with one of them spiky tractors. It won't make it safe by civilian standards, but if done well, it will be more than good enough for conducting military operations in.

Say you have a tunnel, potentially full of enemy personnel or booby traps. Collapse the roof on it, if at all possible - seal all entrances if not.

If you have the resources - and do let us remember that Israel is not fighting a guerilla war. They do have a modern, well-trained and technologically-spohisticated army - you try to deal with such issues as mines and booby traps before a mass infantry movement.

And kill the hostages they are potentially holding there?

And let's not forget that the Afgans have sent Britain, Russia and the USA packing or how the Vietnamese sent the French and the USA packing. Israel are the invaders in the eyes of the Palestinians. The Palestinians are fighting for their lives on their land.

...Which is why Israel has few options other than relative ruthlessness in dealing with the situation. If they end up killing the hostages, then I'd say that they should engage in disporoportional response by "any" measurement.

Theirs is to secure the safety of Israel's citizens, first and foremost in Israel. While morally debatable, it may mean a practical end to any self-governance in Gaza. If not, what else is there?

Of course, if you are aware of hostages being held there, you may want to attempt a rescue or two, but again, to assume that Israeli armed forces would go into a tunnel not counting on and being able to counter booby traps and enemy personnel presence is... Well, it's a big ask. Such an operation would cost Israel, but then, if there are some additional wins, such as rendering Hamas combat-ineffective, then it may well be an excellent idea.

Hamas needs eradicating - which is not to say that everyone associated needs killing, but it is to say that that being the goal, giving them any breathing room is a strategic mistake.

EDIT In other news, our parliament came to a decision. What a momentous day!

...What decision, you ask? Oh, look! A pretty cloud! *points*

...You insist, you say? Well, fine! They decided that at some later date, they may decide to maybe acknowledge Palestine as a state.

My tax kroner working hard. :sadnod:

israel hasnt a clue about the big picture. israel created hamas, in the same way they cteated hezbollah.

when will the operation be over? when israel shoots every male in gaza over the age of 14? how will israel keep hamas from fading into egypt and returning to do it again?

what will israel do with gaza once it destroys ut? israel cant leave, or hamas comes back. so theyll have to station a huge military force there and israel will be responsible for feeding 2 million people.

hamas knew exactly what they were doing. they stopped the israeli detente with saudi, caused israel to antagonize all its muslim neighbors, and has maneuvered israel into becoming an international pariah.

Yep.

Quote from: billy rubin on November 16, 2023, 08:49:37 PMisrael hasnt a clue about the big picture. israel created hamas, in the same way they cteated hezbollah.

Remember, there is always a bigger picture. I see yours and substitute my own. If Hamas can be seen as a reaction to Israel, then Israel can equally, and without much of a stretch, be seen as a reaction to "Hamases" of the past.

Whatever the case, one can't but ask, "well, so bloody what?!" A created B at a point C. You have a situation D at a point F. Given no practical time travel, what does it matter who created what? Is it somehow Oppenheimer's fault if a nuclear war breaks out today?

Quotewhen will the operation be over? when israel shoots every male in gaza over the age of 14?

I hope they find a way not to. In any case, it won't get "prettier" in a hurry.

Quotehow will israel keep hamas from fading into egypt and returning to do it again?

Border control. Expensive, politically challenging and very long-lasting.

Quotewhat will israel do with gaza once it destroys ut? israel cant leave, or hamas comes back. so theyll have to station a huge military force there and israel will be responsible for feeding 2 million people.

Pretty much. Take over the administration of the region and station a huge number of soldiers there.

Quotehamas knew exactly what they were doing. they stopped the israeli detente with saudi, caused israel to antagonize all its muslim neighbors, and has maneuvered israel into becoming an international pariah.

I would argue that Hamas, not Israel, have increased their pariah status. Oh, certain people, like our own Red Party may bitch and moan and whine, but they've been calling for a boycott of Israel since... Probably before I was born, so no new enemies there.

Hamas had some tactical goals that they have acheived and some strategic goals that they, like "every" other terrorist organisation, have failed - or in this case, are in the process of failing. I'm pretty sure that they can more or less forget a free nation of Palestine or any claim to power in that area for decades and decades to come.

Which is the chicken and which is the egg?

Doesn't matter unless making an omelette and a bowl of chicken soup. Wouldn't want to end up with egg soup and... Scrambled chicken?

in todays news

QuoteAP have spoken to a witness of Thursday's incident in which health officials in Gaza say at least 104 people were killed:

Kamel Abu Nahel, who was being treated for a gunshot wound at Shifa hospital, said he and others went to the distribution point in the middle of the night because they heard there would be a delivery of food. "We've been eating animal feed for two months," he said.

He said Israeli troops opened fire on the crowd, causing it to scatter, with some people hiding under nearby cars. After the shooting stopped, they went back to the trucks, and the soldiers opened fire again. He was shot in the leg and fell over, and then a truck ran over his leg as it sped off, he said.

Medics arriving at the scene on Thursday found "dozens or hundreds" lying on the ground, according to Fares Afana, the head of the ambulance service at Kamal Adwan hospital. He said there were not enough ambulances to collect all the dead and wounded and that some were being brought to hospitals in donkey carts.

the IDF says the food trucks killed people by running over them.

Are they claiming spooked drivers?

doesnt matter what they say.

At this point we all know the Israeli answer of any critique: "But Khamas" https://imgur.com/gallery/5fLdmpA

Well, it's interesting, so it matters in that sense. I can subscribe to the notion more broadly though. The warring parties' official channels are not exactly treasure troves of reliable frontline information.

...Neither, for that matter, are civilians or reporters. Fog of war. It's... A fog.

theres no fog there.

the israelis have killed 30 000 palestinians and are slavering for more.

They have to win their war. What else is there?

It's a situation with outcomes ranging from poor to catastrophic. The question is when and for whom. I'm far from alone in seeing no happy endings. Yes, tens of thousands of Palestinians have died. Probably tens of thousands more will die. If Israel falls back now, this will happen again. Maybe not tomorrow or next year, but some terrorist organization will launch a rocket at a shopping center and so unleash the dogs of war.

That said, there absolutely is fog of war. The voices most readily available to be heard about the situation are those with some sort of a direct stake in it. How do you decide what's propaganda, what's emotions running high, what's inaccurate and what is true?

in my opinion, israel has forfeited the right to exist.

its not within my power, but i would end israel if it were.

I disagree with this.

I think the "best" realistic path-to-a-solution is Israeli control of Gaza, but it's best the way chlamydia is the "best" STD.

They are not doing a particularly clean job, to be sure, but it does need doing to safeguard Israel's citizens, and even if "done better," the nature of their opponent means more civilians will die.

I think... How do I put it? That they should achieve military success, then the international bureaucracies can try to sort out the war crimes. It's a war - there will be plenty.

I don't think it will go down like this though. It "never" really does, does it?

Out of curiosity, if you could end Israel, what would you put in its place? What would be the implications of that action? Would there be oceans of hypothetical blood on your hypothetical hands because of it within a few generations? I mean, I suppose one might bring the British Empire back... That would probably be... A lesser disaster.

Quote from: Asmodean on February 29, 2024, 09:49:21 PMOut of curiosity, if you could end Israel, what would you put in its place? What would be the implications of that action? Would there be oceans of hypothetical blood on your hypothetical hands because of it within a few generations? I mean, I suppose one might bring the British Empire back... That would probably be... A lesser disaster.

no solution of mine can be more than a fantasy.

there are about 9.5 million israelis, and about t
14 million palestinians.

i would draw a line straight east-west through jerusalem across transjordan into modern jordan. the entirety of the west bank and current israel north of thst line would be given to the palestinians as a sovereign state. their borders would be with lebanon and syria. they would have access to the mediteranean sea. they would lose gaza.

to the south, the territory would be given to the current israelis. they would have a border with egypt and jordan, and have access to the red sea at elat to the south, and to the mediterranean sea to the west. enough of the west bank would be ceded to israel and palestine to give both factions exactly equal territory proportional to their current populations. all israeli settlers would be expelled from the palestinian lands, and all palestinians from land adminustered by israelis.

doing this will separate the israelis from the northern levant, where they do not get along, and give them a border only with egypt and jordan, with which they do. the palestinians have better relations in the north and will not suffer from losing contact with egypt.

jerusalem would become a united nations protectorate. both israel and palestine could establish their capitals there, but they would be permitted administrative offices only-- neither side would maintain police or military.

this simplistic two-state solution would be objected to by everybody, which is a sign of a good start to coexistence. it is impossible to impose, but it would be whst i would do.

failing that, i would eliminate israel and send all the israelis to  the countries that currently support them militarily or financially. we could fit all the israelis into the american state of wyoming without anybody noticing.

Hmm... A variation on the "original" post British Empire plan, eh...

It's not completely without merit, but has had a history of failure, resulting in pretty much here and now.

Ok, option 2. The Israeli pack up their stuff and fuck the fuck off. Wyonimg prospers like never before. What's happening in Palestine?

EDIT: "Wyonimg." :snicker1: That misspelling amuses me, so I'll let it stand.

Actually, since I was on the phone, I left a few critical points out. One is that it's not a matter of what land or whatever else it may be you can give to somebody, as much as it is a matter of what they can and will take and hold. You do suggest a UN route, but UN is toothless by virtue of having to cater to directly-opposing interests. Even "palestinian lands" is a somewhat tenuous notion. There is no Palestine. Some people and nations recognise that there is, and there is nothing wrong in itself with creating a new nation. However, being a new nation, what are the territorial claims based on? Syria held the northern part, but they are not Syrian lands. Jordan held the south even before it was Jordan, but they are not Jordanian lands. "Palestinian" is an umbrella rather than a specific ethnicity. Israel used to control the lot, (my case being maybe the lesser of all disasters is a return to that) but certain territories later gained autonomy. The claims extend beyond those territories, and so no two-state solution materialises, quite possibly because it would establish a status quo in which the then-nation of Palestine has to settle for less than it is prepared to do.

Bottom line is, even if it were possible, the solutions you aspire to within the area of conflict would likely lead more-or-less nowhere (rather, more or less of the same as today) even if they could be implemented as described.

in the meantime, the israelis murder civilians with impunity

Quote from: billy rubin on February 29, 2024, 09:26:27 PMin my opinion, israel has forfeited the right to exist.

its not within my power, but i would end israel if it were.

A most excellent post, what wisdom, he's seen to the heart of the problem and seen the final solution, kudos Billy. I don't hardly bother thinking a thought these days, I just check what our gun toting Quaker pacifist thinks everyone should be thinking, good enough for me.

pudding old buddy, one of several life lessons youve never learned is that its impossible to insult someone who doesnt respect you.

toddle off, my friend.

The argument please not the person please.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/2/29/dozens-killed-injured-by-israeli-fire-in-gaza-while-collecting-food-aid

QuoteMore than 100 Palestinians have been killed and some 700 others wounded after Israeli troops opened fire on hundreds waiting for food aid southwest of Gaza City, health officials say, as the besieged enclave faces an unprecedented hunger crisis.

The Gaza Ministry of Health said on Thursday said at least 112 people were killed and more than 750 wounded, with the Palestinian Ministry of Foreign Affairs condemning what it said was a cold-blooded "massacre".

Quote from: billy rubin on March 02, 2024, 08:59:48 AMin the meantime, the israelis murder civilians with impunity

So drag them to the human rights court. Actually, I believe South Africa already did.

They are not murdering anybody until the individual war crimes are established as such. There are some cases more obvious than others, but the overall strategy does seem to revolve around ridding the place of the militants. It is a heavily-populated urban area, however, and said militants tend to be where civilians are, so there it becomes a matter of weighting mission objectives, the safety of own troops, the safety of civilians, the functionality of supply routs and a whole mess of other variables against each other.

"You" may have done it differently, but then "you" may have left the war with its objectives unachieved, which could (actually, would, if history is anything to go by) result in a different kind of disaster. Also, it is still a possibility, so there is that...

you know what, asmo?

when people are dying, its worthwhile to cut to the chase.

i regard moral imperatives as more easily identified than you seem to do.

i regard pain as real. death is real.

killing grandmothers is real. burying children alive in rubble is real.

if morality exists, i dont see difficulties in identifying right versus wrong.

this is an easy moral question for me. i do not see subtle nuances.

at all

Quote from: billy rubin on March 05, 2024, 02:16:50 AMi regard moral imperatives as more easily identified than you seem to do.

Perhaps. I don't find them difficult to identify - only complex to weigh against the sum total of concerns.

Quotei regard pain as real. death is real.

...Nor have I claimed that either was illusory or imaginary.

Quotethis is an easy moral question for me. i do not see subtle nuances.

Herein lies the difference, I suppose. I would urge you to consider that not seeing the subtle nuances does not remove them from their respective equations.

you are correct. i do not see the subtle nuance here

Grandmother shot and killed fleeing Gaza. Watch CNN's investigation

https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2024/01/25/palestinians-gaza-shooting-investigation-ward-intl-ldn-vpx.cnn

Those right there may well be examples of one or several war crimes. Or "just murders." Or civilians disobeying an order to stop and turn around, or mistaken identity, or a whole mess of things I - or you or CNN, for that matter - haven't even considered.

You may say that the result is the same, but moral dilemmas are about the journey to conclusion at least as much as about the conclusion itself. To pre-emptively TL:DR myself, from that report, I sort-of know "how it ended," but at best only half a story of "how it went down."

Let us say that the facts surrounding the shooting itself are not in question, though stuff like determining the direction of the shot from riccochet/round impact seen in 2D, about on the plane of where the shots could come from could and should be questioned. I'm inclined to think that it was, in fact, one of the vehicles that fired its ancillary weapon, so let's blanket-grant them their research as valid and even say that we know who was firing at whom down to the name. What is in question is the motive of the shooter and the extended circumstances surrounding the shooting. Within those, there may at its extremes lie the difference between combat and a war crime.

Beyond that, it's more of a portrait report than a fact-finding one. There is nothing wrong with that, of course, it's just that they spend a lot of time talking to and about people and comparatively little talking about the specifics surrounding those deaths. If I were to assume the reason, it would be that they simply don't have "the rest of the picture," and present what they do have. Is it the full story? It might be. It might not. As the evidence stands (referring to the evidence I have been made aware of) this jury of one is hung.

EDIT: I guess I might tack on the reasoning. It is quite possible, perhaps even probable, that there are thousands - maybe even tens of thousands of sociopaths who "just like killing" in the Israeli armed forces. However, when looking specifically at Raviv the Tank Gunner (completely fictional name as it relates to this case - just sounds Israeli-army-ish) and his actions relating to a specific shooting, negligence or ill[egal] intent would need to be demonstrated - otherwise, Raviv didn' do no crime. Now, if he didn't check the target or knowingly aimed at civilians or his finger slipped or he was under specific orders and so on and so forth, then there may be something there. The CNN report addresses nothing of the sort, however, so if I were to conclude one way or the other - what would I be basing it on? That's why I say leave it to someone who knows and understands the standard of evidence in such matters - preferably someone who does not care either way besides, though I guess that's a tall order. Me? I'm not that, and so any condemnation I may come up with at this point in these cases would be as hollow ("knee-jerk emotional" and perceived as such) as a newly-emptied supertanker.

I wouldn't mind seeing a ceasefire and some sort of resolution to the conflict, but it takes two to do that tango and when neither is prepared to be led by the other... They end up tripping bystanders and passers-by to their death. There should be accountability for those actions. There probably will be "none," practically speaking, but any accountability there is should be rooted in enough demonstrable evidence, as opposed to how seeing someone die a violent death makes me feel.

Quote from: billy rubin on March 05, 2024, 02:16:50 AMyou know what, asmo?

when people are dying, its worthwhile to cut to the chase.

i regard moral imperatives as more easily identified than you seem to do.

i regard pain as real. death is real.

killing grandmothers is real. burying children alive in rubble is real.

if morality exists, i dont see difficulties in identifying right versus wrong.

this is an easy moral question for me. i do not see subtle nuances.

at all

I agree

There is black. There is white. There are infinite shades of gray in-between.

Without a detailed understanding of the situation, how could you pinpoint where it falls?

It is a nasty conflict, fought in "no-man's land." There are inconvenient realities there pretty much whatever side of it you look at it from. Had Israel invaded a sovereign nation in this manner, things may have been different. Then again, an organized army may not have been as ready to use the civilian population and the threat of international outrage as cover quite as readily.

In my view, Hamas sufficiently demonstrated that they fight for Hamas - not the people of Gaza. Conversely, Israel fights for Israel. Those very people of Gaza, being caught in the middle... Yeah, it's a messy situation.

well, here we go.

Newborns die of hunger and mothers struggle to feed their children as Israel's siege condemns Gazans to starvation

https://www.cnn.com/2024/03/06/middleeast/israel-gaza-starvation-siege-mothers-babies-intl

The Israelis are justified in trying to kill all the Hamas people. Hamas are the ones who started the brutal war.  Were the first offenders expecting to be excused for their bad behavior?

Seen from another perspective.......... the Israelis are practicing "Chinese Justice" in the extreme. Chinese Justice is when it is known that there are twelve  murder suspects. It is known that only one of them is the guilty party. The solution, CJ, is to execute all of them. That done, it is fairly certain that the real culprit has been sufficiently punished.

:sadnod:

its a nasty business

Israelis protest food shipments to Gaza | CNN

https://www.cnn.com/2024/03/08/middleeast/gaza-israelis-aid-trucks-protests/index.html?iid=cnn-mobile-app

I still don't know why Egypt won't take in Palestinian refugees.
Both are mainly the same type of Muslim which is Sunni.
It's a conspiracy theory to say if Egypt takes them in then Israel won't allow them back.
Israel targets Hamas.

Bigger picture is that this has been going on for 14 centuries, the crazy argument about the true successor to Mohammed and the role of all Muslims to conquer the infidel.
But not just an argument. It may have led to 1 billion deaths in Islamic wars of conquest across 3 continents against innocent people who just happen to have been born into a different belief. Christians, Hindu's, Jains, Buddhists, Sikhs and Jews.

Gaza, just the latest chapter.
Next it will be Europe as a whole.

Quote from: zorkan on March 10, 2024, 03:31:43 PMI still don't know why Egypt won't take in Palestinian refugees.
Both are mainly the same type of Muslim which is Sunni.

I think it's for pragmatic reasons, and broadly similar ones to those being raised in the American and European immigration debate.

Egypt wants control over precisely who they let across the border, and Egypt and Palestine are not that "tight" on national level. Egypt and Israel - less so.

QuoteIt's a conspiracy theory to say if Egypt takes them in then Israel won't allow them back.
Israel targets Hamas.

That's the problem though. Israel wants control over their borders as well, and so they will certainly let some people back in, but what do you do about those who had to leave their identification papers behind, or those who never had them in the first place? And then, how do you stop terrorist infiltration with returning refugees?

Yes, the blanket stetement of "Israel won't let them back" is a bit of a conspiracy theory at this point. However, it's not entirely without merit. Mass border crossings across closed (as in, access-controlled) borders is... Complicated.

QuoteNext it will be Europe as a whole.

:sadnod: It is stoppable, this trend. The question is, will it be stopped?

why ask egypt to take the palestinians?

why not put them in yorkshire?

"They(tm)" could ask Egypt or the United Kingdom or even Yorkshire specifically, but it would still be up to that entity to accept or reject "Their" request.

Similarly, you can put a person somewhere, but it should be up to them to go there or not, unless there is a reason to force them. Otherwise, there is a word for that. It starts with a baby goat and ends with sleeping for a spell.

"Some entity must do things to this person, nevermind their choices" seems a bit of an authoritarian approach to me. You get to ask to be let into a nation. A nation may request or even demand your presence. What business is it of "Theirs(tm)?"

Of course, if you mean that a Palestinian should or should not ask for entry to Egypt, that's a different question. Being "put" in Yorkshire (or wherever it may be), however... Way to promote human trafficking, my dude. I repudiate the very notion. (Unless of course you meant "offer asylum in Yorkshire," but then why put it into the terms used rather than just say that?)

interestingly, nobody asked the palestinians when they were deciding where to put the jews.

putting people in someone else's country was how this whole mess started.

Quote from: billy rubin on March 11, 2024, 03:42:20 PMinterestingly, nobody asked the palestinians when they were deciding where to put the jews.

putting people in someone else's country was how this whole mess started.

There was not a Palestine when They(tm) were deciding upon the establishment of a Jewish state. It's not that interesting whether the Palestinians were asked at all - more whether the nations governing the land were, and how they approached their citizens residing in the breakaway areas.

To the best of my knowledge, putting peoples somewhere is a Chinese, Soviet, Nazi or just-conqueror way of going about things.

Did the British put their Jews in Israel? The Americans? Who were they put there by?

You can establish a nation for me specifically, but unless you also deport me there, you have not put me anywhere at all.

https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2024-02-16/rafah-gaza-hospitals-surgery-israel-bombing-ground-offensive-children

QuoteOn one occasion, a handful of children, all about ages 5 to 8, were carried to the emergency room by their parents. All had single sniper shots to the head. These families were returning to their homes in Khan Yunis, about 2.5 miles away from the hospital, after Israeli tanks had withdrawn. But the snipers apparently stayed behind. None of these children survived.

Future Hamas terrorists nipped in the bud. Once the logic of "justice" referenced by Icarus is adopted, there are no illegitimate targets. The mindset has been pretty obvious for a while. Recall the Israeli hostages waving white flags who were shot down. A "mistake" but only a mistake in that they happened to be Israelis.

that is the explicit attitude. i have listened to interviews with israeli civilians who state exactly that

in 18th century ohio some european-american colonists would kill any native american they encountered, of any age or sex.

when asked why he killed native children, one man quipped,

"nits make lice."

its the same attitude, 300 years apart.

I do wonder how this is going to end and how.

Quote from: Tank on April 01, 2024, 09:26:41 AMI do wonder how this is going to end and how.

I think there will be a ceasefire after Hamas returns the remaining hostages in exchange for Palestinian terrorists. Hamas will rebuild their tunnels and replenish their missile arsenal and the story will then repeat itself.

Quote from: Tom62 on April 02, 2024, 04:07:01 PM

Quote from: Tank on April 01, 2024, 09:26:41 AMI do wonder how this is going to end and how.

I think there will be a ceasefire after Hamas returns the remaining hostages in exchange for Palestinian terrorists. Hamas will rebuild their tunnels and replenish their missile arsenal and the story will then repeat itself.

That's one possible outcome. But it would only be a pause in hostilities as you point out. :(

youre right, of course. israel's slaughter of 32,000 palestinians in retaliation for the murders by the hamas militants has created an entire new generation of people who want nothing more than to see every israeli dead.

israel's strategy is to marginalize palestinian society and politics until they are so dispersed, weakened and ostracized by the other arabs that nobody will think twice about ignoring them.

what israeli arrogance fails to understand is that that was the process hamas perceived in october and was the impetus for their attack on southern israel.

and it worked. the palestinian cause has now been elevated to a righteous movement and they have more sympathizers world-wide than ever before.

all it took was thousands of dead palestinians and israelis, and the government of neither side cares about that at all.

The senseless attack on the three World Kitchen vehicles is just about the last goddam straw. Nations across the world are justifiably incensed about that senseless barbarity.

I am now up for having the US withdraw all aid, of any description, to Israel until Netanyahu and all of his acolytes are long gone.

The Israelis were probably justified in trying to snuff out the Hamas gang. The Hamas crazies are the ones who started the war. But do we need to kill tens of thousands of innocent Palestine women and children who had nothing to do with the ill conceived Hamas raid on Israeli citizens?

Quote from: Icarus on April 03, 2024, 03:15:49 AMThe senseless attack on the three World Kitchen vehicles is just about the last goddam straw. Nations across the world are justifiably incensed about that senseless barbarity.

Are they, though?

Because I look around and see people worrying about the forecast snow tomorrow because many have switched to summer tyres, a dude landing a Boeing 737 on the nose wheel because of tailwind (I suspect), the whole earthquake situation in Taiwan...

...Even the socialist media (As in, explicitly ideologically Socialist) run the Israel situation below tariff negotiations.

True, that's just the media, but it does at least to a degree reflect where the priorities of ye-average person reside, and while they likely would take a stand one way or the other if asked, the Israeli-Hamas war is not very high on the list of priorities for the average of my society.

While I agree with the overall sentiment, I think "displeased" comes far closer to the actual state of affairs in the "nations across the world," without any specific constraints as to which nations, than "incensed."

QuoteThe Israelis were probably justified in trying to snuff out the Hamas gang. The Hamas crazies are the ones who started the war. But do we need to kill tens of thousands of innocent Palestine women and children who had nothing to do with the ill conceived Hamas raid on Israeli citizens?

The kind of opponent that Hamas is, "we" probably do. This is not trench warfare in the open fields of Ukraine, and even that one is probably full of more-or-less heinous human rights abuses and war crimes. This is more of a door-to-door grenade-first-then-shoot-or-be-shot kind of conflict, with very few places for the civilians to go to avoid being used in it - never mind being in it at all.

Thus, I once again find myself asking; "what else is there?" There is what Tom said, or there is this. Or is there a realistic third option?

Well Iran sent 300+ drones, cruise missiles and ballistic missiles at Israel. About 3 got through. Defence by USA, UK, Israel and Jordan.

my country just spent a billion dollars defending a regional troublemaker from a country that was exercising a reasonable self-defense.

seriously, my country is making every accusation that its enemmies levy at it come true.

the US shouldl have let the drones through to emphasize to israel that acts like bombing an embassy are not okay, for crying out loud.

but no. we sternly advise iran not to defend itself, while condoning israels destruction of an entire people through starvation.

we have gone way off the rails in the united states of america. we used to stand for something better than this.

On paper and in self-congratulatory rhetoric. Aspirational speeches.

Billy I do not think many of us are condoning the starvation of the Palestinian people.

I agree with the other statement that our country has gone off the rails. We have, of late, discovered that we now share the nation with a huge number of  religious crackpots who have gained positions of influence.

Their boisterous and sometimes politically influential presence has persuaded otherwise rational people to believe in space lasers, Orwellian type chips concealed in vaccines, socialists demons taking over our democracy, Obama secretly running the government, and a whole gaggle of other bullshit stuff to believe in.

Quote from: Tank on April 14, 2024, 03:59:21 PMWell Iran sent 300+ drones, cruise missiles and ballistic missiles at Israel. About 3 got through. Defence by USA, UK, Israel and Jordan.

As of me writing this, Israel is yet to respond.

I think Iran knew that their attack would be symbolic more than anything, and may even have been aiming for something big enough to generate headlines (which it did over here for quite a few hours) but comparatively ineffective enough that Israel and/or its allies would not be compelled to respond.

There are dangerous games being played on that proverbial chessboard. Hmm... Time will tell.

This man is "openly jewish".

https://news.sky.com/story/sky-news-footage-reveals-new-details-of-exchange-between-police-and-antisemitism-campaigner-called-openly-jewish-13120104

How might I become openly atheist to be threatened by police and the mob?
Then I'll avoid.

I once took a street preacher to task in Leeds city centre. The police took me aside and explained that the preacher had a permit and that if I continued I could be arrested for causing a 'potential' public order offence.

This is exactly what the copper was saying the the chap in the video.

^ The "openly Jewish" remark could have had a less inflamatory choice of words. Perhaps conspicuously Jewish ? 

Most of the Jews that I know are too smart to get into a situation where angry Palestinians are all a flame.  Seems to me the coppers were only trying to protect the "openly Jewish' man from possible or even probable harm.

How about all the people on both side who are "openly aflame" calm the fuck down? Nothing is solved by being so, it only exacerbates the situation. Non-citizens of the US (or elsewhere) should just be deported back to wherever they came from. We have enough white supremacists that we can't send away; that's bad enough already.

Huge shitshows occurring on some of our college campuses. Demonstrations opposing aid to Israel are pretty serious at several of our colleges.

I am in partial sympathy with the mostly Palestinian demonstrators. On the other hand I am in entire  agreement with DL....."calm the fuck down". It ain't like the demonstrations will have a positive affect on the situation in Gaza.  This boils down to mere show business no matter how well intentioned the demonstrators may be.

Quote from: Icarus on April 24, 2024, 12:54:26 AM^ The "openly Jewish" remark could have had a less inflamatory choice of words. Perhaps conspicuously Jewish ? 

Most of the Jews that I know are too smart to get into a situation where angry Palestinians are all a flame.  Seems to me the coppers were only trying to protect the "openly Jewish' man from possible or even probable harm.

Agreed. Knowing he was on camera the copper should have been more circumspect with his choice of words.

This guy was out to cause problems, no question. The coppers action were in my opinion justified and proportionate to the situation.