A while ago, I visited a radical, man-hating feminist blog (I'm not saying that to be insulting; she really did seem to hate pretty much all men), and while most arguments and propositions there seemed to be utter bullshit, there was one point she made that has lingered in my mind ever since. All my rationalizations against it are fairly weak, and my inner Devil's Advocate can defeat them all.
This is the argument:
Some of the women [and men too, I would assume] in porn are coerced into it, and you could be putting money into the pockets of a scumbag porn director.
Your thoughts?
Good to see you back Sandwich.
Do you stop wearing shoes because some bastard in Asia mistreats his workers?
Some may loose a hand to machines, lungs to chemicals.
Maybe I'm rationalizing too.
Quote from: The Magic Pudding on July 14, 2011, 05:54:28 AM
Good to see you back Sandwich.
Do you stop wearing shoes because some bastard in Asia mistreats his workers?
Some may loose a hand to machines, lungs to chemicals.
Maybe I'm rationalizing too.
I knew that would be one of the first and main counterarguments, but fear not, for this is my devil response:
Just because it's impossible, or at least very hard, to detach ourselves and our money from all types of coercion that occurs, does that mean we shouldn't detach ourselves and our money from any coercion at all?
And thanks for the welcome. I think I'm going to start coming here again, although from the looks of things, it's even more dead than before.
Quote from: LegendarySandwich on July 14, 2011, 06:06:39 AM
Just because it's impossible, or at least very hard, to detach ourselves and our money from all types of coercion that occurs, does that mean we shouldn't detach ourselves and our money from any coercion at all?
You would resist watching anyone who seems young, eighteen may be legal but it's still seem too young to me. Any depiction of someone being mistreated could be rejected as well. Having every orifice you own filled at once may be fun for some, I've got my doubts though.
You can get ethical Coffee, Tea, Cocoa, and Palm Oil. You could add porn to that I suppose.
Quote from: LegendarySandwich on July 14, 2011, 06:06:39 AM
And thanks for the welcome. I think I'm going to start coming here again, although from the looks of things, it's even more dead than before.
We're not dead, just conserving energy.
There was a fifty post requirement before new people could post outside the Laid Back Lounge, this has been reduced to ten posts. I think the fifty rule had a bad effect.
All the more reason to illegally download it!
But all joking aside...
Coercing people is bad, greed is bad, but is porn itself bad? Even decades after the sexual revolution, sex is still so closely associated with shame. If we write off porn as bad, we'd be assuming all people who enjoy porn are perverse. Really though, if someone knew that a person in the particular porn they were watching was actually forced into it, more than likely they would be against that particular porn.
I would argue that porn has positives as well. Porn makes my marriage more fun. Porn helps to take some of the stigma out of sex. I even think that to a degree porn makes some religions seem a bit ridiculous for their stance against sex. Perhaps we're winning a few more folks to the atheist side thanks to porn. There are many porn workers that are happy with it, and make more money with it than they could make in other industries without a college degree. There are negative aspects to many jobs. Some people have trouble finding work anywhere else so they work in a bar where smoking is allowed. They're putting their life in danger in that environment. We're fighting that fight the right way by banning smoking in bars instead of banning all bars. We should fight harder against the negatives of the porn industry instead of fighting the entire porn industry.
I am biased, by the way. I happen to love porn.
Quote from: LegendarySandwich on July 14, 2011, 05:11:46 AMSome of the women [and men too, I would assume] in porn are coerced into it, and you could be putting money into the pockets of a scumbag porn director.
I think it is possible that some are coerced, but not all are, in order to make the point have any validity, one would need to determine how many are coerced: If the majority are not being coerced and it is possible to have porn without coercion, then the problem is with the coercion, not porn. It would be just as bad to coerce someone into giving money to the poor.
Porn is OK, it get get boring quickly though
Healthy to add a bit of spice into a relationship once in a while.
If people are being coerced then it would indicate that the government ought to step in and regulate it, make sure employes are of age, are disease free, are treated and paid well.
Coertion can go with any industry, this is why I think prostitution should be legal.
Yes, some of the women are coerced, and some are even drugged. But women are also coerced and drugged for pure sex, that does not make sex wrong or morbid. The act of drugging, and the individuals who do are, but not the act of sex itself.
As for coercion, I don't see the problem so long as the woman is old enough. Most men coerce women into sex, "come on baby, you got me so worked up, you can't leave me like this." "I promise if you just do this for me I will treat you to a really nice dinner." I also don't think theres anything wrong with propositioning a woman who needs money. She may find it insulting, but if the money is worth the act, she can accept or deny it.
I dunno. I love porn. I am a woman. I could be conflicted. Some people have to work at McDonald's you know. Some get coerced into getting a job as a sewer agent because it makes good money. Some get coerced into a certain job for fame. We all make the choices we think we can make. If someone wants to make what I think is a dumb choice, I aint gonna stop them.
This is one I will barely touch as I am not responsible for anyone's morality but my own
I have cared for very sick/addicted/mentally ill .. exploited people...so for me and porn it is a huge NO....sure it is easy to shrug in a hedonistic world.. My choice on this one..I will not in good faith support an industry with what I have seen first hand..choked and tossed on the side of the road...yeah shit happens so is it ok that a porno is made first?...will it go away...nope not ever...do I think it should be legal and regulated...yup...but I will for the memories I have..never watch porn
If you want to have fun in a marriage....find a mossy picnic table in woods
There's something you forget, a lot of "actors" in porn get paid. You seem to have "coercing" confused with "raping". It's their choice to have their bodies shown on camera for money.
Now of course, if it's not by choice, then it's rape, which (I believe) is a felony, and morally wrong.
Quote from: Hidelight on July 16, 2011, 04:26:58 AM
This is one I will barely touch as I am not responsible for anyone's morality but my own
. My choice on this one..I will not in good faith support an industry with what I have seen first hand.
I guess you don't wear brand name clothes or drink coffee or..I dunno...eat? Tell me an industry you can support with clean hands and I'd mail you a penny! ;D
Quote from: Medusa on July 16, 2011, 10:17:21 AM
Quote from: Hidelight on July 16, 2011, 04:26:58 AM
This is one I will barely touch as I am not responsible for anyone's morality but my own
. My choice on this one..I will not in good faith support an industry with what I have seen first hand.
I guess you don't wear brand name clothes or drink coffee or..I dunno...eat? Tell me an industry you can support with clean hands and I'd mail you a penny! ;D
Purell hand sanitizer. That wasn't directed at me, but I'm a penny pincher. Do you want to send that penny through paypal?
Quote from: ThinkAnarchy on July 16, 2011, 12:53:30 PM
Quote from: Medusa on July 16, 2011, 10:17:21 AM
Quote from: Hidelight on July 16, 2011, 04:26:58 AM
This is one I will barely touch as I am not responsible for anyone's morality but my own
. My choice on this one..I will not in good faith support an industry with what I have seen first hand.
I guess you don't wear brand name clothes or drink coffee or..I dunno...eat? Tell me an industry you can support with clean hands and I'd mail you a penny! ;D
Purell hand sanitizer. That wasn't directed at me, but I'm a penny pincher. Do you want to send that penny through paypal?
Have you looked into the bribery scandal from Johnson and Johnson (the owners of Purell)?
*puts penny back in pocket. :D
Quote from: The Magic Pudding on July 14, 2011, 07:06:12 AM
You would resist watching anyone who seems young, eighteen may be legal but it's still seem too young to me. Any depiction of someone being mistreated could be rejected as well. Having every orifice you own filled at once may be fun for some, I've got my doubts though.
You can get ethical Coffee, Tea, Cocoa, and Palm Oil. You could add porn to that I suppose.
I think you're missing my point (or maybe you aren't). People can fully consent and happily "act" in porn that simulates rape, and they can be coerced and unhappily "act" in normal, innocuous porn in which the two actors are both being depicted as equals. I can see where age comes in, as it seems to me that it would be more likely for younger actors to have been coerced into it, but it's not a necessity.
Quote from: LegendarySandwich on July 14, 2011, 06:06:39 AM
We're not dead, just conserving energy.
There was a fifty post requirement before new people could post outside the Laid Back Lounge, this has been reduced to ten posts. I think the fifty rule had a bad effect.
Yeah, ten seems a lot more reasonable.
Quote from: absurdsolidarity on July 14, 2011, 07:49:45 AM
All the more reason to illegally download it!
But all joking aside...
[Coercing people is bad, greed is bad, but is porn itself bad? Even decades after the sexual revolution, sex is still so closely associated with shame. If we write off porn as bad, we'd be assuming all people who enjoy porn are perverse. Really though, if someone knew that a person in the particular porn they were watching was actually forced into it, more than likely they would be against that particular porn.
I don't really understand what you're saying here. I never said that porn itself is bad; I presented that argument that you personally should not watch porn as some of the actors could have been coerced into it.
Quote from: fester30 on July 14, 2011, 02:29:06 PM
I would argue that porn has positives as well.
I agree with this, but, at least for me personally, videos and pictures are not necessary -- there are fantasies, and erotic stories, and drawings, and games, and animations, and etc.
QuoteWe should fight harder against the negatives of the porn industry instead of fighting the entire porn industry.
I agree with this. The argument, however, wasn't that porn should be banned, but that you shouldn't personally watch it.
Quote from: Davin on July 14, 2011, 03:22:10 PM
I think it is possible that some are coerced, but not all are, in order to make the point have any validity, one would need to determine how many are coerced: If the majority are not being coerced and it is possible to have porn without coercion, then the problem is with the coercion, not porn. It would be just as bad to coerce someone into giving money to the poor.
I admit I have no statistics that show how many people in the porn industry were coerced into choosing that career, but I do think it is probably significantly more of a problem than in other industries, and it seems to me like the psychological effects would be more damaging as well.
Quote from: Stevil on July 14, 2011, 08:36:16 PM
If people are being coerced then it would indicate that the government ought to step in and regulate it, make sure employes are of age, are disease free, are treated and paid well.
Coertion can go with any industry, this is why I think prostitution should be legal.
I agree.
Quote from: ThinkAnarchy on July 15, 2011, 02:45:15 AM
Yes, some of the women are coerced, and some are even drugged. But women are also coerced and drugged for pure sex, that does not make sex wrong or morbid. The act of drugging, and the individuals who do are, but not the act of sex itself.
The argument never was porn itself is wrong.
QuoteAs for coercion, I don't see the problem so long as the woman is old enough. Most men coerce women into sex, "come on baby, you got me so worked up, you can't leave me like this." "I promise if you just do this for me I will treat you to a really nice dinner."
I think that is wrong as well, albeit way less worse than some of the stuff I imagine goes on in the porn industry.
Quote from: skwurll on July 16, 2011, 07:55:05 AM
There's something you forget, a lot of "actors" in porn get paid. You seem to have "coercing" confused with "raping". It's their choice to have their bodies shown on camera for money.
Now of course, if it's not by choice, then it's rape, which (I believe) is a felony, and morally wrong.
Maybe it's the way I'm reading it, but this post exhibits black and white thinking: there's choosing to do something, and being forced to do something, and nothing in-between.
Quote from: LegendarySandwich on July 14, 2011, 05:11:46 AMA while ago, I visited a radical, man-hating feminist blog (I'm not saying that to be insulting; she really did seem to hate pretty much all men)
I do that too sometimes, when I feel all cheery and need something to irritate the crap out of me fast.
QuoteThis is the argument:
Some of the women [and men too, I would assume] in porn are coerced into it, and you could be putting money into the pockets of a scumbag porn director.
Your thoughts?
Some clothes you wear are made in sweat shops by underpaid near-slaves. Let's all go naked in the storm, shall we? Otherwise, we risk supporting some sweatshop baron scumbag.
Food is about the same. Then there are house repairs. Check that the house you just bought was not at some point mended by an illegal immigrant for a loaf of bread... Otherwise, there are always caves.
People exploit people, and it is not at all limited to that particular branch of entertainment industry. Happens on microlevel just as easily as macro, so all we can do is try to do some homework on what we buy prior to purchase... That is, those of us who care should. There are serious producers of porn who use well-enough paid actors who actually do not mind doing what they do, and then there are slaver scumbags and everything inbetween. A quick search on the internet will get you far in filtering the crap from the ok sources.
That said, I find porn really boring so I neither own nor care to watch that particular kind of movies, but poor exploited teens were never ever a part of my reasoning.
Quote from: LegendarySandwich on July 17, 2011, 10:28:33 PMQuote from: Davin on July 14, 2011, 03:22:10 PM
I think it is possible that some are coerced, but not all are, in order to make the point have any validity, one would need to determine how many are coerced: If the majority are not being coerced and it is possible to have porn without coercion, then the problem is with the coercion, not porn. It would be just as bad to coerce someone into giving money to the poor.
I admit I have no statistics that show how many people in the porn industry were coerced into choosing that career, but I do think it is probably significantly more of a problem than in other industries, and it seems to me like the psychological effects would be more damaging as well.
Later you stated that, "The argument never was porn itself is wrong." So what is the issue with porn then?
Quote from: Davin on July 18, 2011, 08:21:00 PM
Later you stated that, "The argument never was porn itself is wrong." So what is the issue with porn then?
I was talking about the porn industry in the post you quoted, not porn -- there is (obviously) a difference between the two.
Quote from: Asmodean on July 18, 2011, 04:21:00 PM
Some clothes you wear are made in sweat shops by underpaid near-slaves. Let's all go naked in the storm, shall we? Otherwise, we risk supporting some sweatshop baron scumbag.
Food is about the same. Then there are house repairs. Check that the house you just bought was not at some point mended by an illegal immigrant for a loaf of bread... Otherwise, there are always caves.
See my second post.
This type of argument seems to be nearing a perfection solution fallacy: because we cannot (or at least, it's very hard and extremely inconvenient to) completely remove support of businesses and people that exploit and coerce others, we shouldn't reduce it at all.
QuotePeople exploit people, and it is not at all limited to that particular branch of entertainment industry.
QuoteHappens on microlevel just as easily as macro, so all we can do is try to do some homework on what we buy prior to purchase... That is, those of us who care should.
Yes.
QuoteThere are serious producers of porn who use well-enough paid actors who actually do not mind doing what they do, and then there are slaver scumbags and everything inbetween.
QuoteA quick search on the internet will get you far in filtering the crap from the ok sources.
How so?
QuoteThat said, I find porn really boring so I neither own nor care to watch that particular kind of movies, but poor exploited teens were never ever a part of my reasoning.
A lot of the popular porn is pretty boring.
Quote from: LegendarySandwich on July 20, 2011, 06:02:19 AM
Quote from: Davin on July 18, 2011, 08:21:00 PM
Later you stated that, "The argument never was porn itself is wrong." So what is the issue with porn then?
I was talking about the porn industry in the post you quoted, not porn -- there is (obviously) a difference between the two.
That doesn't answer my question.
Coercion is not something required for the porn industry nor is it any where near exclusive to it. So what is the problem?
Quote from: LegendarySandwich on July 20, 2011, 06:18:58 AMSee my second post.
This type of argument seems to be nearing a perfection solution fallacy: because we cannot (or at least, it's very hard and extremely inconvenient to) completely remove support of businesses and people that exploit and coerce others, we shouldn't reduce it at all.
Wrong interpretation.
Because it is inconvenient and costs too many calories, we should not go out of our way to eradicate it, but if we care enough, we should
do what we are willingto minimize it.
QuoteHow so?
Check credentials of the production company, look for signs of it ever being investigated for illegal activities, for independent reviews, reviews by employees... There is a lot you can do if you can be arsed to spend your time doing it.
QuoteA lot of the popular porn is pretty boring.
Well, aint that nice! We are in agreement :P
Quote from: Davin on July 20, 2011, 03:35:39 PM
Coercion is not something required for the porn industry nor is it any where near exclusive to it. So what is the problem?
That doesn't mean that it's not more common in the porn industry, or that it's worse than other types of coercion, as they're not all created equal.
Quote from: LegendarySandwich on August 08, 2011, 11:37:51 PM
Quote from: Davin on July 20, 2011, 03:35:39 PM
Coercion is not something required for the porn industry nor is it any where near exclusive to it. So what is the problem?
That doesn't mean that it's not more common in the porn industry, or that it's worse than other types of coercion, as they're not all created equal.
It also doesn't mean that it's not more common in the taco industry. This kind of point is flaccid without having the data to express whether it is more common in a specific industry. Once you determine which industry it is most common in, the problem is still the coercion and not the industry nor what the industry produces. So you have two problems here:
1) You don't know which industry coercion is most common in.
2) You can't link coercion specifically to porn without special pleading.
So as far as I can see it: you have an argument against coercion which you just so happen to apply specifically to porn for irrational reasons.
Quote from: Davin on August 09, 2011, 04:01:41 PM
It also doesn't mean that it's not more common in the taco industry. This kind of point is flaccid without having the data to express whether it is more common in a specific industry. Once you determine which industry it is most common in, the problem is still the coercion and not the industry nor what the industry produces. So you have two problems here:
1) You don't know which industry coercion is most common in.
2) You can't link coercion specifically to porn without special pleading.
So as far as I can see it: you have an argument against coercion which you just so happen to apply specifically to porn for irrational reasons.
I admit, that's true. The reason it specifically mentions porn is because that was the original argument I saw. However, it can easily be widened to other industries.
I think the point I want to make is that you should do what you can to personally stop or reduce support of coercion; if that entails stopping from visiting your favorite porn site, so be it.
After you make sure that your favorite porn site does coerce. If your favorite site doesn't coerce, then there's no reason to stop visiting it. And if you're against coercion, then supporting the places that don't coerce is better than just not supporting any because a few do.
Biblically speaking, it's not so much the act that is right or wrong from the start, but the intension and meaning behind it.
I think the reason why the porn industry can be exploitative largely has to do with the fact that sex-negativity is still so rampant. I think changing our attitudes towards sex, just accepting it as a part of life that doesn't have to have a moral judgement attached to it all of the time, would do a lot towards making the lives of sex workers a lot better.
Quote from: Davin on August 09, 2011, 04:01:41 PM
It also doesn't mean that it's not more common in the taco industry. This kind of point is flaccid without having the data to express whether it is more common in a specific industry. Once you determine which industry it is most common in, the problem is still the coercion and not the industry nor what the industry produces.
No, not tacos too -- I just had them for lunch!
Seriously tho, I agree that the problem is coercion, not porn. And there's an quick, cheap solution to not knowing which porn is coersion-free -- just write your own. Or film your own, either solo or with willing friends, heck in some neighborhoods you could make a block party out of it. Which is taking it to silly extremes, but I can say from experience that writing your own porn will also fix that "it can be boring" problem.
Quote from: The Magic Pudding on July 20, 2011, 04:43:08 PM
Quote from: LegendarySandwich on July 20, 2011, 06:18:58 AM
A lot of the popular porn is pretty boring.
Why?
If I didn't think it would derail the thread, I'd provide a list. Porn and I are like the guy who hires a beautiful, sultry 20 yr old escort only to have her grandmother turn up in fishnets and go-go boots.
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on September 09, 2011, 02:18:26 AM
Quote from: The Magic Pudding on July 20, 2011, 04:43:08 PM
Quote from: LegendarySandwich on July 20, 2011, 06:18:58 AM
A lot of the popular porn is pretty boring.
Why?
If I didn't think it would derail the thread, I'd provide a list. Porn and I are like the guy who hires a beautiful, sultry 20 yr old escort only to have her grandmother turn up in fishnets and go-go boots.
Thank you for that image burned into my head! :o
Seriously, though. If you get your adult media from one of the more respectable, established companies in the buisness you can be fairly certain that you are not supporting the kind of coersion we are most conserned with here.
Quote from: Guardian85 on September 09, 2011, 04:10:40 AM
...we are most conserned with here.
And by "we", you mean someone who is NOT me, yes..? 8)
Quote from: Asmodean on September 09, 2011, 04:54:47 AM
Quote from: Guardian85 on September 09, 2011, 04:10:40 AM
...we are most conserned with here.
And by "we", you mean someone who is NOT me, yes..? 8)
Yes, yes, yes... You are te mad scientist. To hell with ethics and and morals. :P
Quote from: Guardian85 on September 09, 2011, 04:10:40 AM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on September 09, 2011, 02:18:26 AM
If I didn't think it would derail the thread, I'd provide a list. Porn and I are like the guy who hires a beautiful, sultry 20 yr old escort only to have her grandmother turn up in fishnets and go-go boots.
Thank you for that image burned into my head! :o
Sorry! I should have realized that comment was not appropriate for the dinner hour.
QuoteSeriously, though. If you get your adult media from one of the more respectable, established companies in the buisness you can be fairly certain that you are not supporting the kind of coersion we are most conserned with here.
I think there's still a problem of contributing to coersion since you can never really be completely certain of your porn providers ethics, or if the place you got the information that they were respectable from was reliable. Maybe it's all a tissue of lies, or maybe they really do their best to be above board with their talent but there can always be slip ups and bad apples that aren't caught for awhile.
As I understand it, the basic question is are you willing to accept a percentage of doubt about consuming a questionable product, or do without it, esp. given that it's a luxury item and not a necessity. Honestly, if this truly bothered me, I'd do without commercial porn (not a huge sacrifice for me in any case) but it does open up quite a can of worms on all the other non-essential stuff that would need to be jettisoned to avoid hypocrisy.
just a time out to note that this thread has received over 500 views...compared to other threads that's a lot o views in relation to actual posts; LS deserves some kind of award for that ;)
Quote from: Guardian85 on September 09, 2011, 11:08:30 PM
Yes, yes, yes... You are te mad scientist. To hell with ethics and and morals. :P
Oh, I have my morals. They do not envelope every loser in the galaxy though, not out of malice or misanthropy , just because I don't care about people who do not have an impact on my life. Porn actors - legitimate or otherwise - do not.