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Post by: Eowyn on July 28, 2006, 03:31:26 PM
Post by: Eowyn on July 28, 2006, 03:31:26 PM
Onlyme modern day Islam is no more a militant religion than Christianity. I suppose no one remembers the crusades anymore. : )
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Post by: Big Mac on July 28, 2006, 03:42:25 PM
Post by: Big Mac on July 28, 2006, 03:42:25 PM
Er, Eowyn, I'm gonna have to uh...disagree....yeaaaah. See when's the last time a Christian strapped himself with C-4 and blew up a synagogue, spanish train, etc? Or when's the last time a Christian hijacked a plane and crashed into two historical buildings?
Though I think both are almost equally stupid.
Though I think both are almost equally stupid.
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Post by: Court on July 28, 2006, 04:01:08 PM
Post by: Court on July 28, 2006, 04:01:08 PM
BigM, the good christians don't read their bibles anymore. That's the reason there are not (edit: I'm sorry, I meant are not) people-burnings and stonings across our country.
Both books are pretty equally horrendous...Christians here have just learned to rationalize the violence away ("That's in the OT, it doesn't count" or "God doesn't want us to do violence. God is love." or "We are not to judge, that's God's job.") or rise above it, being decent human beings.
Both books are pretty equally horrendous...Christians here have just learned to rationalize the violence away ("That's in the OT, it doesn't count" or "God doesn't want us to do violence. God is love." or "We are not to judge, that's God's job.") or rise above it, being decent human beings.
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Post by: Asmodean Prime on July 28, 2006, 05:02:03 PM
Post by: Asmodean Prime on July 28, 2006, 05:02:03 PM
Quote from: "Eowyn"Onlyme modern day Islam is no more a militant religion than Christianity. I suppose no one remembers the crusades anymore. : )
Of course I 'remember' the inquisition. Though, as I said earlier, I think these atrocities were carried out by the catholic church and the templar knights.
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Post by: Asmodean Prime on July 28, 2006, 05:04:14 PM
Post by: Asmodean Prime on July 28, 2006, 05:04:14 PM
Quote from: "Court"BigM, the good christians don't read their bibles anymore. That's the reason there are people-burnings and stonings across our country.
Both books are pretty equally horrendous...Christians here have just learned to rationalize the violence away ("That's in the OT, it doesn't count" or "God doesn't want us to do violence. God is love." or "We are not to judge, that's God's job.") or rise above it, being decent human beings.
court, what do you mean there are people-burnings and stonings across 'our' country? I haven't heard about them. Although I did see graphic footage recently in Iraq where a collaborator with the Americans was burned alive in the street. Horrible. I think it was on www.ogrish.com (http://www.ogrish.com).
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Post by: Whitney on July 28, 2006, 05:21:13 PM
Post by: Whitney on July 28, 2006, 05:21:13 PM
Quote from: "Big Mac"Er, Eowyn, I'm gonna have to uh...disagree....yeaaaah. See when's the last time a Christian strapped himself with C-4 and blew up a synagogue, spanish train, etc? Or when's the last time a Christian hijacked a plane and crashed into two historical buildings?
Though I think both are almost equally stupid.
Abortion clinic bombings.
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Post by: Asmodean Prime on July 28, 2006, 05:30:43 PM
Post by: Asmodean Prime on July 28, 2006, 05:30:43 PM
laetus, you mentioned the abortion clinic bombings.
Gross, irresponsible, criminal, in my opinion. How are we to justify certain extreme elements of so called Christians? We are not permitted to harm anybody.
Have you also seen the website of the andover babtist church, which states that God hates gays, God hates americans?
I don't know. Who are we to condemn people to hell like that. We should be a little more humble, in my opinion, we can get too arrogant. We should accept that we are fallible ourselves. We are not to condemn anybody, in my opinion.
Gross, irresponsible, criminal, in my opinion. How are we to justify certain extreme elements of so called Christians? We are not permitted to harm anybody.
Have you also seen the website of the andover babtist church, which states that God hates gays, God hates americans?
I don't know. Who are we to condemn people to hell like that. We should be a little more humble, in my opinion, we can get too arrogant. We should accept that we are fallible ourselves. We are not to condemn anybody, in my opinion.
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Post by: Whitney on July 28, 2006, 05:36:10 PM
Post by: Whitney on July 28, 2006, 05:36:10 PM
I used the abortion clinic bombings as an example of how people can use christianity as a basis for doing harm. That's the same thing militant Muslims are doing...Islam as a whole is viewed as a religion of peace by it's followers and most would never do harm. All religions have their extremeists...can't claim not a true ____ in one case and not in another.
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Post by: Court on July 28, 2006, 08:10:26 PM
Post by: Court on July 28, 2006, 08:10:26 PM
Quote from: "onlyme"Quote from: "Court"BigM, the good christians don't read their bibles anymore. That's the reason there are people-burnings and stonings across our country.
Both books are pretty equally horrendous...Christians here have just learned to rationalize the violence away ("That's in the OT, it doesn't count" or "God doesn't want us to do violence. God is love." or "We are not to judge, that's God's job.") or rise above it, being decent human beings.
court, what do you mean there are people-burnings and stonings across 'our' country? I haven't heard about them. Although I did see graphic footage recently in Iraq where a collaborator with the Americans was burned alive in the street. Horrible. I think it was on www.ogrish.com (http://www.ogrish.com).
WHOOPS! I meant aren't. That's why there are not people-burnings and stonings. I'm so sorry. I usually catch my typos...
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Post by: Asmodean Prime on July 28, 2006, 08:59:43 PM
Post by: Asmodean Prime on July 28, 2006, 08:59:43 PM
court
Wooops! It's a term I find myelf repeating more and more often in today's hectic society - especially on internet forums!
laetus
I don't think anybody has the right under the Christian umbrella, to do anyone any harm.
Wooops! It's a term I find myelf repeating more and more often in today's hectic society - especially on internet forums!
laetus
I don't think anybody has the right under the Christian umbrella, to do anyone any harm.
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Post by: Court on July 28, 2006, 09:08:16 PM
Post by: Court on July 28, 2006, 09:08:16 PM
Onlyme, have you read the bible? God specifically demands you to kill certain types of sinners. Or are you an OT hater?
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Post by: Asmodean Prime on July 28, 2006, 09:23:58 PM
Post by: Asmodean Prime on July 28, 2006, 09:23:58 PM
court, No, I am not an OT hater, it's just that I try to balance out OT laws and requirements in light of new testament teaching.
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Post by: Court on July 28, 2006, 09:29:04 PM
Post by: Court on July 28, 2006, 09:29:04 PM
Oh-kay. So, how do you do that? Are you really just replacing god's archaic morality with your own, more-enlightened one?
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Post by: Big Mac on July 29, 2006, 05:26:54 AM
Post by: Big Mac on July 29, 2006, 05:26:54 AM
Quote from: "laetusatheos"Quote from: "Big Mac"Er, Eowyn, I'm gonna have to uh...disagree....yeaaaah. See when's the last time a Christian strapped himself with C-4 and blew up a synagogue, spanish train, etc? Or when's the last time a Christian hijacked a plane and crashed into two historical buildings?
Though I think both are almost equally stupid.
Abortion clinic bombings.
I stand (partially) corrected. I forgot those nut jobs who bomb abortion clinics or use deer rifles to kill abortion doctors in their own homes.
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Post by: Whitney on July 31, 2006, 07:24:09 AM
Post by: Whitney on July 31, 2006, 07:24:09 AM
Quote from: "onlyme"laetus
I don't think anybody has the right under the Christian umbrella, to do anyone any harm.
Then you have made my point for me. Most Islamics think the same of their religion...that the terrorists don't have a right to do harm in the name of Allah.
There really aren't any more hateful verses in the Koran than there are in the Bible. If I remember correctly, when you take a count of violent verses in the Bible verses that in the Koran, the Koran actually has a lot less. So, it's really not fair to call their religion violent while ignoring the history of your own...because both are about equal on the violent history scale.
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Post by: Asmodean Prime on July 31, 2006, 01:12:52 PM
Post by: Asmodean Prime on July 31, 2006, 01:12:52 PM
laetus
you make a good point, although I do think that a lot of muslims would be reluctant to contradict the 'violent' teachings of the koran, such as killiing the infidels wherever you find them. Another thing, as I said before, the violent Christian history you mention was committed in the most part as far as I know by catholics, and templar knight crusaders, none of which are truly Christian at heart.
As for the violent sections of scripture, we Christians are always more prone to temper these teachings with love, which is the proper way, I think.
I don't see muslims as the enemy (except the more militant ones) -after all, they are taught to hate and kill Christians, Jews, and all 'unbelievers' (the militant muslims I'm talking about) -we are not taught to hate them. Plus we have a common history (the old testament) - its just that we believe they diverted, just as we had a common history with the Jews, but we also believe that they diverted from the truth, too.
I must admit, though, that 'religion' as seen by the unbeliever, is quite often a dividing factor in society, and most wars have been fought over religion - but, equally, most 'everyday' crimes have been committed I think by non-believers, mainly because they believe that they have no-one to answer to for their actions. This is obviously apparent in society in general, in my opinion. People just don't care any more it seems about anybody else except themselves, and are deeply selfish, inconsiderate and uncaring. They wouldn't be so keen to behave that way if they believed there is a God to answer to in my opinion.
What do you think?
you make a good point, although I do think that a lot of muslims would be reluctant to contradict the 'violent' teachings of the koran, such as killiing the infidels wherever you find them. Another thing, as I said before, the violent Christian history you mention was committed in the most part as far as I know by catholics, and templar knight crusaders, none of which are truly Christian at heart.
As for the violent sections of scripture, we Christians are always more prone to temper these teachings with love, which is the proper way, I think.
I don't see muslims as the enemy (except the more militant ones) -after all, they are taught to hate and kill Christians, Jews, and all 'unbelievers' (the militant muslims I'm talking about) -we are not taught to hate them. Plus we have a common history (the old testament) - its just that we believe they diverted, just as we had a common history with the Jews, but we also believe that they diverted from the truth, too.
I must admit, though, that 'religion' as seen by the unbeliever, is quite often a dividing factor in society, and most wars have been fought over religion - but, equally, most 'everyday' crimes have been committed I think by non-believers, mainly because they believe that they have no-one to answer to for their actions. This is obviously apparent in society in general, in my opinion. People just don't care any more it seems about anybody else except themselves, and are deeply selfish, inconsiderate and uncaring. They wouldn't be so keen to behave that way if they believed there is a God to answer to in my opinion.
What do you think?
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Post by: Whitney on July 31, 2006, 02:40:36 PM
Post by: Whitney on July 31, 2006, 02:40:36 PM
Quote from: "onlyme"laetus
you make a good point, although I do think that a lot of muslims would be reluctant to contradict the 'violent' teachings of the koran, such as killiing the infidels wherever you find them. Another thing, as I said before, the violent Christian history you mention was committed in the most part as far as I know by catholics, and templar knight crusaders, none of which are truly Christian at heart.
Right, and I said before that they are still Christians even if you don't view them as such. You really have no way of knowing what they believe in their 'hearts' anyway.
Also, although the Koran does say to kill infidels, it seems that the context says to only do so when attacked first (self defense).
QuoteAs for the violent sections of scripture, we Christians are always more prone to temper these teachings with love, which is the proper way, I think.
I don't know how many Muslims you have talked to, but that's just what mainstream Islam teaches...to love everyone.
Neither the Koran or Bible are very good moral books...the fact that believers have to say to view it with love or put it in historical context is a pretty good indicator that neither are divine texts.
QuoteI don't see muslims as the enemy (except the more militant ones) -after all, they are taught to hate and kill Christians, Jews, and all 'unbelievers' (the militant muslims I'm talking about) -we are not taught to hate them. Plus we have a common history (the old testament) - its just that we believe they diverted, just as we had a common history with the Jews, but we also believe that they diverted from the truth, too.
Right, and both Jews and Muslims think Christians have diverted from the truth.
QuoteI must admit, though, that 'religion' as seen by the unbeliever, is quite often a dividing factor in society, and most wars have been fought over religion - but, equally, most 'everyday' crimes have been committed I think by non-believers, mainly because they believe that they have no-one to answer to for their actions. This is obviously apparent in society in general, in my opinion. People just don't care any more it seems about anybody else except themselves, and are deeply selfish, inconsiderate and uncaring. They wouldn't be so keen to behave that way if they believed there is a God to answer to in my opinion.
To be blunt, I think your views of morality and why people choose to act morally are tainted by your past and having to find religion in order to be a moral person.
The following study found a negative correlation between religiosity and social welfare of a country (news reports of the study are titled "Society worse off with God on their side": http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/pdf/2005-11.pdf (http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/pdf/2005-11.pdf)
If the findings of the study are correct, my explanation is the popular beliefs among Christians, although it may not be okay to do wrong, that God will forgive them as long as they believe Jesus died for their sins. After all, they are only human and will mess up (original sin means they are inherently sinful anyway)...the belief that earthly sins are forgiven just because of faith in the right religion is an easy out for those who believe in God yet have tendencies to want to do wrong.
Additionally, even a society built on philosophical egoism would function in an ethical manner. For instance, I don't want anyone to kill me (for this example we'll assume that I don't really care if others are killed, even though I do care). Since I don't want anyone to kill me, it would be a good idea to make murder illegal. Out of complete selfishness, the idea of do not murder can be created. If I don't want myself to be murdered yet go out and kill another person, that would open the door for others to want to kill me. The only way to ensure my own protection from murder is to create a moral system in which murder is not allowed.
edit: I also wrote this essay http://www.happyatheistforum.com/kb.php ... rticle&k=2 (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/kb.php?mode=article&k=2) which touches upon some of the reasons why religion isn't a good basis for morality. (The essay could use refinement, I was on a tight schedule when writing it for class, but I haven't gotten around to changing anything yet)
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Post by: Court on July 31, 2006, 03:06:55 PM
Post by: Court on July 31, 2006, 03:06:55 PM
Quote from: "onlyme"laetus
you make a good point, although I do think that a lot of muslims would be reluctant to contradict the 'violent' teachings of the koran, such as killiing the infidels wherever you find them. Another thing, as I said before, the violent Christian history you mention was committed in the most part as far as I know by catholics, and templar knight crusaders, none of which are truly Christian at heart.
I'm pretty sure the witch burnings weren't just done by catholics.
It's easy for you to say "They weren't really christian at heart," but the truth of the matter is, if the bible wasn't inherently violent, these people could never of have murdered countless people in the name of god. The bible is clear on the subject: Murder for religion is endorsed by god. You can sugar-coat it with Jesus-love all you want, but the words are still there.
Quote from: "onlyme"As for the violent sections of scripture, we Christians are always more prone to temper these teachings with love, which is the proper way, I think.
Unfortunately for christianity, what you think is irrelevent. Christianity's basis for existing is the bible. The bible says to kill certain types of sinners (homosexuals and witches, for example). It doesn't get simpler than that.
Quote from: "onlyme"I don't see muslims as the enemy (except the more militant ones) -after all, they are taught to hate and kill Christians, Jews, and all 'unbelievers' (the militant muslims I'm talking about) -we are not taught to hate them. Plus we have a common history (the old testament) - its just that we believe they diverted, just as we had a common history with the Jews, but we also believe that they diverted from the truth, too.
I think you have a twisted view of Islam. To me, it looks pretty similar to christianity, except that christianity is rooted in a more developed part of the world. Basically, they both have horrendously violent books that also teach peace and love. The majority of both religions preach the peace and love and ignore the violence. Then, when criticizing the other, they point to the violent verses in the other book and ignore or rationalize the ones in their own. It's frustrating to watch.
Quote from: "onlyme"I must admit, though, that 'religion' as seen by the unbeliever, is quite often a dividing factor in society, and most wars have been fought over religion - but, equally, most 'everyday' crimes have been committed I think by non-believers, mainly because they believe that they have no-one to answer to for their actions. This is obviously apparent in society in general, in my opinion. People just don't care any more it seems about anybody else except themselves, and are deeply selfish, inconsiderate and uncaring. They wouldn't be so keen to behave that way if they believed there is a God to answer to in my opinion.
Wow, that's just wrong. I'm also thinking of the study Laetus posted.
Also, I read a study that there is an astounding disproportionate amount of people in prison who are christian (and most other religions) than who are non-religious. Let me go find it and I'll post it here.
http://holysmoke.org/icr-pri.htm (http://holysmoke.org/icr-pri.htm)
"Note that atheists, being a moderate proportion of the USA population (about 8-16%) are disproportionately less in the prison populations (0.21%). "
I'm sorry, that's the best one I could find. I suck at the internet.
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Post by: silviakjell on August 01, 2006, 09:14:37 AM
Post by: silviakjell on August 01, 2006, 09:14:37 AM
Wait...was that "Onion" essay a joke? or was it real news? getting me confused here. What other essays has he written?
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Post by: Aullios on August 01, 2006, 09:33:56 AM
Post by: Aullios on August 01, 2006, 09:33:56 AM
The Onion is a parody newspaper. I think they update weekly.
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Post by: silviakjell on August 02, 2006, 08:54:18 AM
Post by: silviakjell on August 02, 2006, 08:54:18 AM
What does a parody newspaper do?
yay! i've changed into a member.
yay! i've changed into a member.
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Post by: Court on August 02, 2006, 02:11:41 PM
Post by: Court on August 02, 2006, 02:11:41 PM
Wiki: In contemporary usage, parody is a form of satire that imitates another work of art in order to ridicule or poke affectionate fun at either the work itself, or the subject of the work, or in some cases simply the subject of the parody.
Parody exists in all art media, including literature, music, and cinema. Cultural movements can also be parodied. Such works are also sometimes colloquially referred to as spoofs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parody (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parody)
Parody exists in all art media, including literature, music, and cinema. Cultural movements can also be parodied. Such works are also sometimes colloquially referred to as spoofs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parody (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parody)
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Post by: silviakjell on August 03, 2006, 06:36:03 AM
Post by: silviakjell on August 03, 2006, 06:36:03 AM
Thanks. I should use Wikepedia more often but I'm too lazy.
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Post by: Theist on December 27, 2006, 10:38:58 PM
Post by: Theist on December 27, 2006, 10:38:58 PM
Quote from: "Court"Onlyme, have you read the bible? God specifically demands you to kill certain types of sinners. Or are you an OT hater?
Court, you implied, as quoted above that there are specific verses in the bible that tell you to kill certain sinners. Out of my own curiousity, could you possibly give me some specific verses so I could look them up? Much thanks
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Post by: donkeyhoty on December 28, 2006, 12:11:42 AM
Post by: donkeyhoty on December 28, 2006, 12:11:42 AM
Quote from: "Thiest"Court, you implied, as quoted above that there are specific verses in the bible that tell you to kill certain sinners. Out of my own curiousity, could you possibly give me some specific verses so I could look them up? Much thanks
Deuteronomy 13:13-17 for one instance.
Leviticus 20:13 for another.
And Leviticus 18:14, third time's the charm.
Leviticus certainly has a lot of "if this, then die"
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Post by: Theist on December 28, 2006, 02:23:55 AM
Post by: Theist on December 28, 2006, 02:23:55 AM
thanks donkey
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Post by: User192021 on February 14, 2007, 06:02:32 AM
Post by: User192021 on February 14, 2007, 06:02:32 AM
Quote from: "onlyme"laetus, that makes it very clear. Thanks. I wont ask again.Wow, I want to come work there!
You said 'there aren't many atheists out there...'
I disagree with you on that. At least in my experience, we believers seem vastly outnumbered. In the company I work for, consisting of about 300 people, all of them I've ever asked, have said that they are atheists.
I don't know of another single believer where I work. If that is at all representative of the population in general, there are a great many atheists out there. They may not go out of their way to broadcast it, but it's certainly what they believe.