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Why God?

Started by Tank, September 04, 2011, 10:37:08 AM

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Dave

Quote from: drfreemlizard on June 16, 2018, 09:00:54 PM
Wait just a minute. You are saying we Christians sit around in clusters repeating our mantras over and over, but that ignores the broad spectrum of denominations within the Christian church. We do have some basic principles on which we agree, but those aside there are some pretty sharp variations.

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Yeah, perhaps my brush was a bit broad!

Would you say it is not a common practice for Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists etc, of all denominations and sects within their faith, to form into regular groups for mutual worship? As I said before most atheists see no fundamental difference between the major religions, possibly between any belief or faith system based on the supernatural. Such organised and regulated behaviour is bound to feature high in the perceptions of atheists.

Christians, Muslims and Jews exist in an uneasy world where some groups in each might welcome their fellow "The One True God" followers whereas other groups would shoot, blow or chop them limb from limb - for the greater glory of "The One True God." I will grant that Christians have largely grown out of such practices and are more likely to be victims in some countries these days. Buddhists, Hindus and Muslims seem to enjoy mutual, three cornered, antipathy.

Does not say much for the power of good in faith and belief does it? Not even within the same faith in some cases.

As I said elsewhere we can only really talk in generalities here. Good people usually reside below the public horizon, probably quietly doing millions of good deeds every day. The likes of Phelps and his gang at the Westboro church are the other side of the coin. All call themselves Christians. So the temptation is to cherry pick the more visible outrageous parts of theism for attention. Just as many theists chose the likes of Stalin and Pol Pot as examples of atheists and lump us all together. Hitler believed in "God" according to some authorities.

If "God" has no control over human nature what use is he, except to give some a purpose, justification, prop etc that they cannot find within themselves?
Tomorrow is precious, don't ruin it by fouling up today.
Passed Monday 10th Dec 2018 age 74

Arturo

There are probably some Atheists out there who rely on group thinking because they don't have the means or desire to actually research things on their own and come to that conclusion. Atheism and religion are hot topic issues. So becoming emotionally charged might just be for one reason self identifying Atheists don't resign themselves to logic. But true Atheism comes from logical conclusion.

It doesn't take much to be a Christian. Just agree with everyone else around you and you'll congregate. Learn how to get people to agree with you and you can become a bishop. Get strangers to agree with you and give you money and then you're a pastor.
It's Okay To Say You're Welcome
     Just let people be themselves.
     Arturo The1  リ壱

Dave

Quote from: Sandra Craft on June 16, 2018, 08:34:22 PM
Quote from: drfreemlizard on June 16, 2018, 07:39:04 PM
Group think, in other words. But isn't that a sword that cuts in both directions? Christians group think themselves into a belief in God, atheists group think themselves into believing there is no God.

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Atheists (most of us anyway) reject theist claims about gods due to lack of evidence, or at least a compelling argument to believe in one without evidence.  And considering how many of us came to that conclusion from a theist background, before we'd ever heard an atheist speak or read an atheist book, I don't think there's much group think going on about it.

If a being presented itself to the world, demonstrated conclusively that it could create worlds instantaneously out of nothing and override the laws of physics on this world, or did whatever was needed to demonstrate it could be considered a god, and some atheists still refused to believe it, then there might be some group think going on in atheism.

Sandy, in a couple of your "catch-up" posts you have reiterated things that have been covered over the past couple of days (I never read all the forgoing posts either!) so we might well be accused of "group think" there by some. We all think the same thing, roughly. But though we exchange ideas with fellow atheists over years, maybe, holding onto some, letting others slip, we do not get together in groups solely organised to reinforce "right thinking" in the minds of those assembled.

If that "anti-diety" group of atheists assembled for the purpose of plotting and planning their strategy against the deity, talking one another into a mutually agreed set of actions, "group think" might have occurred. It is not an essential part of any strategy planning group, a decent consensus, even with minor dissensions, can serve just as well.
Tomorrow is precious, don't ruin it by fouling up today.
Passed Monday 10th Dec 2018 age 74

Sandra Craft

Quote from: Dave on June 16, 2018, 10:35:07 PM

Sandy, in a couple of your "catch-up" posts you have reiterated things that have been covered over the past couple of days (I never read all the forgoing posts either!) so we might well be accused of "group think" there by some. We all think the same thing, roughly. But though we exchange ideas with fellow atheists over years, maybe, holding onto some, letting others slip, we do not get together in groups solely organised to reinforce "right thinking" in the minds of those assembled.

Yes, that occurred to me when I went back and read some of the posts I'd missed.  I wonder also if one of the reasons there's so much general agreement among atheists about atheism is that there's so little to it.  It isn't complicated or involved, unlike just about any religion you could name, so there isn't a lot of room for variation.
Sandy

  

"Life is short, and it is up to you to make it sweet."  Sarah Louise Delany

drfreemlizard

I think you have us (at least Christians, I cannot really speak for other theists) a bit backwards. We meet because we believe there is a God and He both desires and deserves worship, not the other way around.

And how do you account for people who are not raised in a theist environment, or who are but leave it for many years, only to later return? I think of C. S. Lewis, who described himself as the most reluctant convert in all England, as well as others.

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Tank

Quote from: drfreemlizard on June 17, 2018, 01:22:09 AM
I think you have us (at least Christians, I cannot really speak for other theists) a bit backwards. We meet because we believe there is a God and He both desires and deserves worship, not the other way around.
The very ideal of group think.

Quote
And how do you account for people who are not raised in a theist environment, or who are but leave it for many years, only to later return? I think of C. S. Lewis, who described himself as the most reluctant convert in all England, as well as others.
Some humans are fickle and eventually return to the indoctrination they received in their childhood. Humans are not machines designed to be perfect. We are evolved creatures will all the faults that brings. We have emotions and religions have evolved to be extremely emotionally seductive and as some people age they settle for emotional comfort and return to a childhood state. Some of course may effectively take Pascals Wager as they come closer to the inevitability of their death.
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

xSilverPhinx

Quote from: drfreemlizard on June 16, 2018, 07:39:04 PM
Group think, in other words. But isn't that a sword that cuts in both directions? Christians group think themselves into a belief in God, atheists group think themselves into believing there is no God.

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:eyebrow:

So adults generally agreeing that Santa Claus does not go around on his sleigh pulled by flying reindeer to distribute toys to millions of children is considered group think?

I am what survives if it's slain - Zack Hemsey


Dave

Quote from: Sandra Craft on June 17, 2018, 01:17:40 AM
Quote from: Dave on June 16, 2018, 10:35:07 PM

Sandy, in a couple of your "catch-up" posts you have reiterated things that have been covered over the past couple of days (I never read all the forgoing posts either!) so we might well be accused of "group think" there by some. We all think the same thing, roughly. But though we exchange ideas with fellow atheists over years, maybe, holding onto some, letting others slip, we do not get together in groups solely organised to reinforce "right thinking" in the minds of those assembled.

Yes, that occurred to me when I went back and read some of the posts I'd missed.  I wonder also if one of the reasons there's so much general agreement among atheists about atheism is that there's so little to it.  It isn't complicated or involved, unlike just about any religion you could name, so there isn't a lot of room for variation.

Good thinking, Sandy.

Will steal that one!
Tomorrow is precious, don't ruin it by fouling up today.
Passed Monday 10th Dec 2018 age 74

Recusant

Quote from: xSilverPhinx on June 17, 2018, 03:50:11 PM
Quote from: drfreemlizard on June 16, 2018, 07:39:04 PM
Group think, in other words. But isn't that a sword that cuts in both directions? Christians group think themselves into a belief in God, atheists group think themselves into believing there is no God.

:eyebrow:

So adults generally agreeing that Santa Claus does not go around on his sleigh pulled by flying reindeer to distribute toys to millions of children is considered group think?

:lol: :cheers: :brava:
"Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I hold in veneration — courage, clear thinking, honesty, fairness, and above all, love of the truth."
— H. L. Mencken


Dave

Quote from: Recusant on June 17, 2018, 08:56:12 PM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on June 17, 2018, 03:50:11 PM
Quote from: drfreemlizard on June 16, 2018, 07:39:04 PM
Group think, in other words. But isn't that a sword that cuts in both directions? Christians group think themselves into a belief in God, atheists group think themselves into believing there is no God.

:eyebrow:

So adults generally agreeing that Santa Claus does not go around on his sleigh pulled by flying reindeer to distribute toys to millions of children is considered group think?

:lol: :cheers: :brava:

Seconded!
Tomorrow is precious, don't ruin it by fouling up today.
Passed Monday 10th Dec 2018 age 74

Velma

Quote from: Dave on June 17, 2018, 09:01:33 PM
Quote from: Recusant on June 17, 2018, 08:56:12 PM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on June 17, 2018, 03:50:11 PM
Quote from: drfreemlizard on June 16, 2018, 07:39:04 PM
Group think, in other words. But isn't that a sword that cuts in both directions? Christians group think themselves into a belief in God, atheists group think themselves into believing there is no God.

:eyebrow:

So adults generally agreeing that Santa Claus does not go around on his sleigh pulled by flying reindeer to distribute toys to millions of children is considered group think?

:lol: :cheers: :brava:

Seconded!
And thirded! (I don't care if is is a thing or not!  ;D )
Life is but a momentary glimpse of the wonder of the astonishing universe, and it is sad to see so many dreaming it away on spiritual fantasy.~Carl Sagan

Arturo

Quote from: Velma on June 18, 2018, 12:54:04 AM
Quote from: Dave on June 17, 2018, 09:01:33 PM
Quote from: Recusant on June 17, 2018, 08:56:12 PM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on June 17, 2018, 03:50:11 PM
Quote from: drfreemlizard on June 16, 2018, 07:39:04 PM
Group think, in other words. But isn't that a sword that cuts in both directions? Christians group think themselves into a belief in God, atheists group think themselves into believing there is no God.

:eyebrow:

So adults generally agreeing that Santa Claus does not go around on his sleigh pulled by flying reindeer to distribute toys to millions of children is considered group think?

:lol: :cheers: :brava:

Seconded!
And thirded! (I don't care if is is a thing or not!  ;D )

Fourthded then  ;D
It's Okay To Say You're Welcome
     Just let people be themselves.
     Arturo The1  リ壱

Recusant

In before "see! see! groupthink, right there!"   :grin:
"Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I hold in veneration — courage, clear thinking, honesty, fairness, and above all, love of the truth."
— H. L. Mencken


Dave

Quote from: Recusant on June 18, 2018, 09:16:29 AM
In before "see! see! groupthink, right there!"   :grin:

Not do sure that exactly meets the criteria of true groupthink. I was trying to drag up that subject from my memory of the college psychology unit (could have dug the notes out of the box in the attic . . .) Instead I looked online and found this.
https://www.khanacademy.org/test-prep/mcat/behavior/social-psychology/v/conformity-and-groupthink
Unfortunately the video is not shareable.

Seems that for true groupthink there needs to be an authoratarian group leader. Peer pressure can have similar effects but I don't think we suffer from that, when we agree, we agree - when we don't we have the option to argue it out without personal damage. Unless, of course, we step over the arbritary line and get suspended or banned. Luckily a rare occurence and possibly open to appeal.

Group confirmity. Seems a bit less well defined, but if otyers have an opinion it is not worth fighting over . . . Maybe "consensus" fits as well.

Now, what kind of group, other than political, industrial or military, has "an authoratarian figure" determining the subject and leading the direction of the debate I wonder?

In the realm of religion there are always "independants", those who chose not to attend church but worship slone, in their own way. But, they still obey an "ultimate authority" to maintain their spiritual integrity. I once lived next door to a flat used as a "house church", a dozen or so people in their 20s who did not want a vicar to tell them what to think, deciding on a kind of democracy with no designated leader. Apart from thrir dinging they were no problem and skways packed it in by about 8pm. But I could often hear wht they said if I turned the TV off. Ignoring the prayers and hymns it was soon obvious that there was a scale of assertiveness accross the group. There was a subtle but de facto leader who managed to steer the discussion no matter who was nominally "in the chair" for that session. But I would guess this happens in any group situation, my one experience of a humanist group showed this - there was a high potential for clashes had I remained in it!

Groups love leaders, even covert ones. But online groups do not normally have the pressures of face-to-face ones. We can respectfully diasagree but will, rightly, be expected to qualify and justify our point of dissent. Maybe to amicably agree to disagree. Or we can have a minor shouting match and go away mutually disgruntled.

And we have no "ultimate authority",  no, "He who must be obeyed!" No overiding confirmity to adhere to.
Tomorrow is precious, don't ruin it by fouling up today.
Passed Monday 10th Dec 2018 age 74

xSilverPhinx

Quote from: Recusant on June 18, 2018, 09:16:29 AM
In before "see! see! groupthink, right there!"   :grin:

:snicker1:

I was waiting for it! :P
I am what survives if it's slain - Zack Hemsey