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[Based Opinions] Let kids be kids

Started by Asmodean, December 11, 2018, 09:56:44 AM

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Asmodean

Quote from: joeactor on December 13, 2018, 08:07:45 PM
Some level of adversity can build character and make one stronger in the end.
Indeed. We have touched on toughness not necessarily being an end goal. Being able to deal constructively with the darker side of life, however, is a sign of strength... At least in my book, it is.


Quote from: Icarus on December 14, 2018, 12:15:05 AM
In the same ball park but way out in left field for this discussion is this:  A high school in Wisconsin was having some sort of ceremony that they called Pre-prom.   About 15 boys were posing for a picture to be taken by one of the fathers.  The father told them to wave as if saying goodbye to their parents or their school.  Their wave much too much resembled the Nazi salute. Straight arm, fingers together, slightly elevated  hand.  Somehow the picture found its' way onto some of the social media sites like Facebook.  Shit hits the fan with a resounding splat.

People of color, Jews, Mormans, JWs, Homosexual people, Rumanian gypsies and others are offended big time. It has become almost a national scandal.  There is much discussion about what to do with the situation.  In my mind, the boys were doing typical dumb shit that adolescents do. In many other peoples mind, the kids need to be severely punished.  The school administration is feeling lots of heat.  I think that the whole thing is being blown all out of proportion

What is one to conclude about that sort of thing. 
Poor kids, they're d00md. :( Well... They will be OK once they get out of the at-times hyperprogressive, often hysterical education system, but for now, I fear they'll just have to live with being worse than the worst of the worst...

In any case, and in more general terms, this sort of thing is actually a good example of bullying. Intersectionalists of different stripes do it "all the time," but to hear them speak of it, their farts don't smell at all. The difference between me and them, is that I think they are idiots, but they do them and I do me, unless our interests collide - and even then, I will not attempt to push for legislation against them. They think I'm evil, and therefore deserving of whatever shit they throw in my direction, "randomly and inexplicably" comes my way. It's "think like me, do like me and be like me, or you will never be left alone."

I'm totally doing a separate opinion piece on all of this with a more political angle. Ooh, yes I am.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.

Bad Penny II

What doesn't kill you makes you stronger, unless it doesn't. 
Many people are damaged by their childhoods.
Some don't survive, acceptable attrition I suppose.

A national approach to bullying seems sensible to me.
A local area isn't going to have the same expertise.
I wouldn't buy a smart phone produced by my local town.
Why would I expect locals to solve an arguably more complex problem?
Take my advice, don't listen to me.

Asmodean

#17
QuoteWhat doesn't kill you makes you stronger, unless it doesn't. 
Many people are damaged by their childhoods.
Some don't survive, acceptable attrition I suppose.
Mmh... Yes, but. "Acceptable" depends on how broadly you look at the issue at hand. (I get to do two examples in this post, and I does like me some examples. Thanks, Penny. :) )

What doesn't kill you makes you stronger, unless it doesn't. Many people are damaged in their childhood by riding bicycles. Some don't survive. Acceptable attrition?

Actually, that's not precisely where I'm going with this example. We already have traffic regulations which, among other things, do aim to protect cyclists from harm. Still, say that to some kid waking up in a hospital bed with no legs and a Mercedes-star impressed into his chest. Ought there be sanctions of any sort against the Mercedes-driver?

According to me, it depends. What were the circumstances? Who had the right of way? Was the cyclist in the car's blind spot? (Obviously not, what with the star and the chest and all that, but that's not the point right here and now) Was either of them impaired? What. The. Hell. Happened? You give me the variables specific to this case, and I'll tell you if and how I would sanction against the involved parties.

According to some people, however, the kid was a soft target, and a kid besides, so the driver is at fault by default. To them I say, "Innocent until proven guilty," and a few things about multivariate problems besides, but I digress.

I think this is pretty good, as my examples go. It can be translated to the subject at hand without compromising the narrative.

So, was what happened to the kid (and the driver, by the way) acceptable? I think the whole premise of acceptability in that particular situation is flawed. Is it acceptable that such things happen in the first place? Well, they happen, so unless your answer is to ban kids from riding bicycles, or drivers from using cars, or segregate them, as is becoming a popular concept in some Intersectional circles these days, you can't really give me a resolute "no," can you?

Quote from: Bad Penny II on December 15, 2018, 02:01:56 PM
A national approach to bullying seems sensible to me.
A local area isn't going to have the same expertise.
I wouldn't buy a smart phone produced by my local town.
Why would I expect locals to solve an arguably more complex problem?
I'll see your analogy and raise my own.

Here's the setting; I stumble into my doctor's office, dying in the most dramatic of ways, from a viciously miserable, highly contagious and in-cure-edibly deadly case of... Sniffles.

While I would like the doctor to rely on his medical knowledge and procedure, I would not want him to treat me by some one-size-fits-all-sickness-removal method. I would, for example, want him to take stuff such as my age, weight, general fitness, previous history etc into account, then treat me if that's what I would benefit from the most, or kick my whiny-ass ass out of his office if reliance on my own immune system, possibly some other personal effort, is thought to produce as good or better results in my particular case. I would certainly not want some Central Authority™ physician to treat my incredibly deadly sniffles as he would some lesser ailment, like a broken leg or... Chlamydia. That's why I would both want and expect a local resource to do a better job of solving my local issue then the nation, the vast majority of which neither knows nor cares about muh struggle, would.

Am I calling the alleged victims of bullying a bunch of whiners? No. What I am saying, however, is that while the person being bullied may well do with some metaphorical Aspirin, they might not need a leg cast, or a shot of antibiotics and to lay off them skanks ;)
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.

Sandra Craft

Quote from: Asmodean on December 15, 2018, 05:58:52 PM
QuoteWhat doesn't kill you makes you stronger, unless it doesn't. 
Many people are damaged by their childhoods.
Some don't survive, acceptable attrition I suppose.
Mmh... Yes, but. "Acceptable" depends on how broadly you look at the issue at hand. (I get to do two examples in this post, and I does like me some examples. Thanks, Penny. :) )

What doesn't kill you makes you stronger, unless it doesn't. Many people are damaged in their childhood by riding bicycles. Some don't survive. Acceptable attrition?


A version I read once of that went: what doesn't kill you gives you a lot of unhealthy coping mechanisms and a really dark sense of humour.  That's the one I agree with.
Sandy

  

"Life is short, and it is up to you to make it sweet."  Sarah Louise Delany

xSilverPhinx

Quote from: Sandra Craft on December 15, 2018, 07:20:12 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on December 15, 2018, 05:58:52 PM
QuoteWhat doesn't kill you makes you stronger, unless it doesn't. 
Many people are damaged by their childhoods.
Some don't survive, acceptable attrition I suppose.
Mmh... Yes, but. "Acceptable" depends on how broadly you look at the issue at hand. (I get to do two examples in this post, and I does like me some examples. Thanks, Penny. :) )

What doesn't kill you makes you stronger, unless it doesn't. Many people are damaged in their childhood by riding bicycles. Some don't survive. Acceptable attrition?


A version I read once of that went: what doesn't kill you gives you a lot of unhealthy coping mechanisms and a really dark sense of humour.  That's the one I agree with.

I like that. :popcorn:
I am what survives if it's slain - Zack Hemsey


Asmodean

I prefer the Asmoic version: What doesn't kill you doesn't make you dead. Whether or not it makes you better at not being dead, is up to you.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.

Sandra Craft

#21
Quote from: Asmodean on December 17, 2018, 07:06:32 AM
I prefer the Asmoic version: What doesn't kill you doesn't make you dead. Whether or not it makes you better at not being dead, is up to you.

I came across one today that I may put into a cross stitch:  That which does not kill me had better run away damned fast. 

Doesn't apply to me but it's catchy.  Personally I don't agree that what doesn't kill you makes you stronger, and I think Nietzsche himself was an example of that.  I have no problem with letting kids be tested, but when the testing starts to veer into torture (even "just" psychological torture) that's when adults have to step in and stop it.

That's part of the hard work of being an adult, because zero tolerance policies are worthless here (pretty much everywhere really).  It requires adults to be aware of what's going on with a particular kid (made more difficult because most kids hide that) and knowing what the particular kid's threshold is.

Maybe a kid can be helped to extend his threshold, maybe he can't -- some people are natural wimps, but that doesn't mean they have no value, that there aren't plenty of useful things they can do or become.   But not if they commit suicide in childhood to escape bullying, or have their personalities warped by relentless and preventable misery. 

Considering that the people who are teenagers and kids now are the ones that will take care of me when I'm too old and/or weak to care for myself, the last thing I want is for them to have warped personalities.
Sandy

  

"Life is short, and it is up to you to make it sweet."  Sarah Louise Delany

Icarus


Asmodean

Quote from: Sandra Craft on December 17, 2018, 10:15:49 PM
I came across one today that I may put into a cross stitch:  That which does not kill me had better run away damned fast.
Ha. I like.

QuoteThat's part of the hard work of being an adult, because zero tolerance policies are worthless here (pretty much everywhere really).  It requires adults to be aware of what's going on with a particular kid (made more difficult because most kids hide that) and knowing what the particular kid's threshold is.
Indeed. Weird how we seem to mostly agree on the principles here, while "out there..." Whence doth all them people trying to brew a storm in this tea kettle cometh from?
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.

Sandra Craft

Quote from: Icarus on December 18, 2018, 02:16:52 AM
Well said Sandy.   :thumbsup:

Thank you.  Took a long time for that to percolate.

Quote from: Asmodean on December 18, 2018, 07:38:21 AM
Quote from: Sandra Craft on December 17, 2018, 10:15:49 PM
I came across one today that I may put into a cross stitch:  That which does not kill me had better run away damned fast.
Ha. I like.

I thought of you the instant I saw it.

Quote
QuoteThat's part of the hard work of being an adult, because zero tolerance policies are worthless here (pretty much everywhere really).  It requires adults to be aware of what's going on with a particular kid (made more difficult because most kids hide that) and knowing what the particular kid's threshold is.
Indeed. Weird how we seem to mostly agree on the principles here, while "out there..." Whence doth all them people trying to brew a storm in this tea kettle cometh from?

If you mean the zero tolerance pushers, when I'm in a bad mood I think it's pure laziness.  When I'm in a good mood I think it's likely caused by overwork and limited personnel.
Sandy

  

"Life is short, and it is up to you to make it sweet."  Sarah Louise Delany

Asmodean

I think it's something a whole lot more insidious, namely that people are like "Yeah, but I don't like it, and my friends don't like it, so it should be forbidden."

I've noticed it other places too. The instant someone brings up something unpopular, but legal (even if implicitly so, through nothing else but not being explicitly prohibited) a whole fuckload of people default to "There ought to be a law." No, in most cases, there really oughtn't, actually.

Of those employing calls for sweeping legislation as arguments that I've had the displeasure of debating, none - not a one - could account for the butterfly effects of their proposals. They could all analyse how it would affect them or some third party to a first degree, but not how it could potentially bite them right on the ass.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.

Bad Penny II

Quote from: Asmodean on December 15, 2018, 05:58:52 PM
QuoteWhat doesn't kill you makes you stronger, unless it doesn't. 
Many people are damaged by their childhoods.
Some don't survive, acceptable attrition I suppose.
Mmh... Yes, but. "Acceptable" depends on how broadly you look at the issue at hand. (I get to do two examples in this post, and I does like me some examples. Thanks, Penny. :) )

What doesn't kill you makes you stronger, unless it doesn't. Many people are damaged in their childhood by riding bicycles. Some don't survive. Acceptable attrition?

There's a gain from riding bicycles, fitness, the joy of movement, development of motor skills.
There are definite credits to be reconciled against cost, more gain than cost.
There's a gain from being bullied, you need to learn how to be bullied 'cause it's the way of the world.
It might be true but there's more cost then gain and I didn't want in on this deal anyway.



Quote from: Asmodean on December 15, 2018, 05:58:52 PM
Quote from: Bad Penny II on December 15, 2018, 02:01:56 PM
A national approach to bullying seems sensible to me.
A local area isn't going to have the same expertise.
I wouldn't buy a smart phone produced by my local town.
Why would I expect locals to solve an arguably more complex problem?
I'll see your analogy and raise my own.

Here's the setting; I stumble into my doctor's office, dying in the most dramatic of ways, from a viciously miserable, highly contagious and in-cure-edibly deadly case of... Sniffles.

While I would like the doctor to rely on his medical knowledge and procedure, I would not want him to treat me by some one-size-fits-all-sickness-removal method. I would, for example, want him to take stuff such as my age, weight, general fitness, previous history etc into account, then treat me if that's what I would benefit from the most, or kick my whiny-ass ass out of his office if reliance on my own immune system, possibly some other personal effort, is thought to produce as good or better results in my particular case. I would certainly not want some Central Authority™ physician to treat my incredibly deadly sniffles as he would some lesser ailment, like a broken leg or... Chlamydia. That's why I would both want and expect a local resource to do a better job of solving my local issue then the nation, the vast majority of which neither knows nor cares about muh struggle, would.

I trust she diagnoses your sniffles with the skills she learned in a course sanctioned by the national medical authorities and treats them in accordance with best practice as set by said national medical authorities.
Take my advice, don't listen to me.

Asmodean

Actually, in this example, he kicked me and muh Sniffles™ both out of his office.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.

Bad Penny II

Quote from: Asmodean on December 20, 2018, 02:26:57 PM
Actually, in this example, he kicked me and muh Sniffles™ both out of his office.

Where as if he wasn't shackled by the national medico Nazis he could have prescribed placebo of newt.
Take my advice, don't listen to me.

Asmodean

Perhaps. In any case, he handled it well - locally.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.