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Community => Social Issues and Causes => Topic started by: Magdalena on May 31, 2020, 02:20:45 AM

Title: George Floyd
Post by: Magdalena on May 31, 2020, 02:20:45 AM
I just wanted to share this with everyone:

Quote1 hr 14 min ago
Los Angeles mayor implements 8 p.m. curfew
From CNN's Julia Jones

Los Angeles Mayor Eric Garcetti announced the city will have a curfew beginning at 8 p.m. Saturday until 5 a.m. Sunday.

"To increase safety for demonstrators, law enforcement, and all citizens of Los Angeles, we are putting a curfew in place from 8 p.m. to 5 a.m.," the mayor tweeted.

Could this topic, have its own space?
Please.
(George Floyd.)
Title: george floyd
Post by: billy rubin on May 31, 2020, 04:26:37 AM
the police murdered a man and now are inciting riots nationwide.

what do you do when the cops are the criminalz?
Title: Re: george floyd
Post by: Tank on May 31, 2020, 08:36:32 AM
Quote from: billy rubin on May 31, 2020, 04:26:37 AM
the police murdered a man and now are inciting riots nationwide.

what do you do when the cops are the criminalz?

Just a question. How are the police inciting riots or are the riots simply a reaction to the murder?
Title: Re: george floyd
Post by: Tank on May 31, 2020, 09:17:13 AM
Mags. I have merged your post with Billy's.
Title: Re: george floyd
Post by: billy rubin on May 31, 2020, 01:45:21 PM
Quote from: Tank on May 31, 2020, 08:36:32 AM
Quote from: billy rubin on May 31, 2020, 04:26:37 AM
the police murdered a man and now are inciting riots nationwide.

what do you do when the cops are the criminalz?

Just a question. How are the police inciting riots or are the riots simply a reaction to the murder?

the american police are actively attacking peaceful protesters and people standing on their front porches.

police are singling out and  shooting photographers, including television newscrews live, on th eair, with rubber bullets and arrests.

police are driving by groups of citizens simply standing on the sidewalk and pepper spraying them as they pass.

a few bad police officers were accused of brutality and murder, which started this mess. now th emain body of american law enforcement is demonstrating that the problem is systemic

https://imgur.com/gallery/gkteLds

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8373001/Journalist-left-blind-one-eye-shot-rubber-bullet-Minneapolis-protest.html

https://www.cleveland.com/open/2020/05/us-rep-joyce-beatty-other-politicians-pepper-sprayed-by-columbus-police-during-protest.html


Title: Re: george floyd
Post by: Tank on May 31, 2020, 03:10:30 PM
Quote from: billy rubin on May 31, 2020, 01:45:21 PM
Quote from: Tank on May 31, 2020, 08:36:32 AM
Quote from: billy rubin on May 31, 2020, 04:26:37 AM
the police murdered a man and now are inciting riots nationwide.

what do you do when the cops are the criminalz?

Just a question. How are the police inciting riots or are the riots simply a reaction to the murder?

the american police are actively attacking peaceful protesters and people standing on their front porches.

police are singling out and  shooting photographers, including television newscrews live, on th eair, with rubber bullets and arrests.

police are driving by groups of citizens simply standing on the sidewalk and pepper spraying them as they pass.

a few bad police officers were accused of brutality and murder, which started this mess. now th emain body of american law enforcement is demonstrating that the problem is systemic

https://imgur.com/gallery/gkteLds

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8373001/Journalist-left-blind-one-eye-shot-rubber-bullet-Minneapolis-protest.html

https://www.cleveland.com/open/2020/05/us-rep-joyce-beatty-other-politicians-pepper-sprayed-by-columbus-police-during-protest.html

Thanks for the background.
Title: Re: george floyd
Post by: billy rubin on May 31, 2020, 04:26:24 PM
herez some more

more than one city

Title: Re: george floyd
Post by: Magdalena on May 31, 2020, 07:36:47 PM
Quote from: Tank on May 31, 2020, 09:17:13 AM
Mags. I have merged your post with Billy's.
Thank you, Tank, but I believe this whole conversation started here:
https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=724.msg402210#msg402210 (https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=724.msg402210#msg402210)
Title: Re: george floyd
Post by: billy rubin on May 31, 2020, 08:07:28 PM
more and more images are being posted online of riot police with electrical tape over their badge numbers to prevent identification.

i have heard of but have not seen images of the police with their body cams covered as well.
Title: Re: george floyd
Post by: Icarus on May 31, 2020, 09:50:45 PM
One cop whose, judgement failed him, lit the fuse. Before that a a few cops murdered a woman in her own bed...........they had a reason to do so........as the story goes.  The cop in Ferguson Missouri claimed to have a reason to shoot the kid....maybe he had ample reason, maybe not.  And the beat goes on. 

Let us step back a few paces and calmly consider the whole situation.  For starters, most of the cops are not rogues with a superiority complex.  A few of them are prone to over react and do stupid things. 


The black community has a legitimate grievance that extends back 400 years or so.  They are justified in staging vigorous protests.  Most of the protesting people are not being destructive, anarchistic, or criminally motivated.  Unfortunately there are some who do fit those descriptions.  To make matters worse, there are more than a few white supremacist outfits who have traveled to the areas of unrest for the purpose of antagonizing the situation.  How is it that numerous groups of Bubba types have found it necessary to form armed posses equipped with confederate flags and a stupidly worn attitude?   

Cut the cops some slack.  Can we even imagine the difficulty of the job that they are trying to do?  What do you do when a mob becomes destructive, even murderous. If I am a shop owner, struggling to make a living, and an unidentified thug torches my place, am I justified in becoming angry, vengeful?  Will I thereafter hold a grudge against black people?  Did the destruction of my life's work help the cause of the downtrodden and shamefully treated black community? 

The mobs are making matters worse for themselves, not better.  The peaceful but determined demonstrators would do themselves a favor by kicking the shit out of the looters and destroyers.  They have shown only a few instances for the common sense that would have them protect their own neighborhoods and businesses.  Then who the hell is to be charged with the responsibility of gaining civilized control of the neighborhood or city?  Well there are the cops who have been charged with that responsibility. That is a substantial part of our reason for our having hired them, wouldn't you say?

When the cops are overwhelmed and we are forced to call out the National Guard we are in deep trouble. 
Title: Re: george floyd
Post by: Sandra Craft on May 31, 2020, 09:54:57 PM
Here's something from Houston: https://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/Video-shows-mounted-patrol-officer-trample-15305527.php (https://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/Video-shows-mounted-patrol-officer-trample-15305527.php)
Title: Re: george floyd
Post by: Icarus on May 31, 2020, 11:12:54 PM
Governor Cuomo has it nailed.  Look at this vid, see if you agree...........it is a short one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fc7JPEOIkjs
Title: Re: george floyd
Post by: Recusant on May 31, 2020, 11:21:35 PM
There has been looting and arson, yes. That is not all this is about though.

There are people who are peacefully protesting a systemic problem with police abusing their power, and the reaction from police has provided more examples of abuse of their power.
Title: Re: george floyd
Post by: No one on June 01, 2020, 01:38:37 AM
Humans suck! It's just that simple.
Title: Re: george floyd
Post by: Tom62 on June 01, 2020, 06:42:25 AM
The USA has a severe police problem, which needs to be fixed. Maybe it is because of their education, training or funding; maybe it is because there is a police militarisation trend; or maybe it because of lack of responsibility, I don't know. Fact is that, in comparison with for example Germany or the Netherlands, law enforcement in the US seems to be more aggressive, badly trained to handle escalations and far more eager to draw their guns. I must however say that it is rather unlikely that the police here has to deal with people with guns, so I can understand that the police in the USA could are more nervous and fearful in the USA.  Yes there are some pretty bad cops out there. We have them here as well. However, I'm pretty sure that most cops in the world abhor what had happened to George Floyd.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: billy rubin on June 01, 2020, 11:17:19 AM
in america, theyve had fifty years since the murder of martin lurher king to demonstrate tbeir good will.

it hasnt happened. tbe reality is that tbere are cops that commit crimes, and cops that look the other way.

thoze are tbe only kind there are.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Icarus on June 02, 2020, 07:18:42 AM
Quote from: billy rubin on June 01, 2020, 11:17:19 AM
in america, theyve had fifty years since the murder of martin lurher king to demonstrate tbeir good will.

it hasnt happened. tbe reality is that tbere are cops that commit crimes, and cops that look the other way.

thoze are tbe only kind there are.


Billy that is bullshit.   To say that that is "the only kind there are" is beneath both of our dignities and too far beneath our sense of honesty.

I agree that Buford the hillbilly county cop is a piece of shit. The fool that killed George Floyd was  not a prime example of a legitimate law enforcement officer.     

Right now cops are taking a bad rap because they are pressed into a  serious situations not of their own making.  In the vast majority of cases, cops are guardians. In the last few days they have been forced to become warriors. Damned few of them signed up for this kind of duty. 

Disclaimer: No one in my family is now or ever has been a cop.  None of my friends are cops, nor do they have any cops in their families.

If I have an intruder who is trying to get into my house, planning to harm me, would you suggest that I call a plumber?
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Asmodean on June 02, 2020, 08:31:26 AM
A force as large as the sum total of the US police forces, combined with a profession which, it is reasonable to assume, attracts people who desire power over others... Yeah. I'm not surprised that some of them murder people. (From what I understand, the officer in question has not been convicted of murder, so please do look at what I say from the point of presumption of innocence - I'm not saying that he specifically murdered a person at this time)

I don't have a revolutionary bone in my body, so I am incapable of understanding what would drive an person to riot - when my peaceful protests do not succeed, for whatever reason, I go home and re-evaluate my options, but that's neither here nor there. Without referring to specific cases, what I find puzzling is this; I see some news about rioting and looting and some rioters and looters getting shot for their trouble and some people getting outraged and demanding that the defenders be prosecuted. If you attack somebody or are in process of damaging their property, and you get your ass killed for your trouble, that's kind-of on you though, is it not?

...Apologies for adding to the politicization of your thread, Mags.



Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: billy rubin on June 02, 2020, 03:01:17 PM
Quote from: Icarus on June 02, 2020, 07:18:42 AM
Billy that is bullshit.   To say that that is "the only kind there are" is beneath both of our dignities and too far beneath our sense of honesty.

sorry, but i disagree, icarus. if the american police forces were capable of policing themselves, we wouldn't see the systemic abuses that we do. the fact that police in my country can illegally assault peaceful protesters without instantly being outed by a law-abiding cop standing next to them indicates that the the cop next to them is not law-abiding.

its not what they say that matters. its what they do that shows what they are.

Quote
If I have an intruder who is trying to get into my house, planning to harm me, would you suggest that I call a plumber?

if i were black, living in america, and there was an intruder trying to get in, i would not call the police. the risks of calling the cops are as great as fending off the intruder myself. i would have been prepared and i would defend myself to the best of my ability instead.

here's what happened to Stephon Clark in his grandmother's back yard when someone called the sacramento police:

https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/22/us/sacramento-police-shooting/index.html

here's what happened to Atatiana Jefferson in her own living room when someone called the fort worth police:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/13/us/fort-worth-texas-shooting-jefferson.html

the store owner who called the police in minneapolis that resulted in the death of george floyd says he won't be calling the police anymore:

https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/500566-owner-of-store-that-called-cops-on-george-floyd-says-theyll-stop-calling

if i were black i would no more call the police to a problem in my neighborhood than i would have called hitler's brown shirts if i were a jew in trouble.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Magdalena on June 02, 2020, 08:35:23 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on June 02, 2020, 08:31:26 AM
...
...Apologies for adding to the politicization of your thread, Mags.
This is not my thread, Asmodean.

I started this topic:
What's on my mind?
George Floyd.
Minneapolis.
:felix:
https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=724.msg402210#msg402210 (https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=724.msg402210#msg402210)


billy rubin started this one:
Quote from: billy rubin on May 31, 2020, 04:26:37 AM
the police murdered a man and now are inciting riots nationwide.

what do you do when the cops are the criminalz?

Tank put both of them together. I asked him to separate them for me to avoid mixing things. George Floyd didn't do anything wrong, but the police department all over the United States, now that's another topic that deserves its own space.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Tom62 on June 03, 2020, 07:04:15 PM
Following the rioting and looting from the death of George Floyd, Apple has a message for those who power on a stolen iPhone: "This device has been disabled and is being tracked. Local authorities will be alerted."  Forbes reports (https://www.forbes.com/sites/zakdoffman/2020/06/01/apple-warns-looters-with-stolen-iphones-you-are-being-tracked/#7425fb9f5098)
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: billy rubin on June 03, 2020, 09:57:00 PM
chauvin, the cop who killed george floyd, was originally the only one charged, third degree murder and second degree manslaughter, i believe:

Third-degree murder is defined as killing someone unintentionally and not done as part of the commitment of another felony. Another term for murder is "homicide." Third-degree murders are those committed with ill will, or, in other words, with malice.


that seemed inappropriate to me, viewng the video. today it was upped to second degree murder, which i think is the correct charge:

Second degree murder is generally defined as intentional murder that lacks premeditation, is intended to only cause bodily harm, and demonstrates an extreme indifference to human life. The exact legal definition of this crime will vary by jurisdiction.


the three cops who actively helped him or failed to interfere have been charged with aiding and abetting the murder. we'll see how this continues.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Anne D. on June 04, 2020, 06:16:35 AM
Quote from: billy rubin on June 02, 2020, 03:01:17 PM
Quote from: Icarus on June 02, 2020, 07:18:42 AM
Billy that is bullshit.   To say that that is "the only kind there are" is beneath both of our dignities and too far beneath our sense of honesty.

sorry, but i disagree, icarus. if the american police forces were capable of policing themselves, we wouldn't see the systemic abuses that we do. the fact that police in my country can illegally assault peaceful protesters without instantly being outed by a law-abiding cop standing next to them indicates that the the cop next to them is not law-abiding.

its not what they say that matters. its what they do that shows what they are.

Quote
If I have an intruder who is trying to get into my house, planning to harm me, would you suggest that I call a plumber?

if i were black, living in america, and there was an intruder trying to get in, i would not call the police. the risks of calling the cops are as great as fending off the intruder myself. i would have been prepared and i would defend myself to the best of my ability instead.

here's what happened to Stephon Clark in his grandmother's back yard when someone called the sacramento police:

https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/22/us/sacramento-police-shooting/index.html

here's what happened to Atatiana Jefferson in her own living room when someone called the fort worth police:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/13/us/fort-worth-texas-shooting-jefferson.html

the store owner who called the police in minneapolis that resulted in the death of george floyd says he won't be calling the police anymore:

https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/500566-owner-of-store-that-called-cops-on-george-floyd-says-theyll-stop-calling

if i were black i would no more call the police to a problem in my neighborhood than i would have called hitler's brown shirts if i were a jew in trouble.

Amen.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Icarus on June 05, 2020, 03:04:28 AM
Check this out.  Here is Candace Owens a hard shell conservative I would suspect. She does make some sense, is articulate, and has a different slant  Video is a bit long but may capture some interest...........https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtPfoEvNJ74
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Asmodean on June 05, 2020, 07:03:48 AM
So just to brighten this up a little bit;

Our local Communists and Socialists are planning some sort of protest-gathering-whatever what with the whole Floyd-situation. Yeah. They are the ones to talk! :lol: I mean, abuse of power by law enforcement is to Socialism as honey is to bees. It's what they do.

EDIT: Watched the above vid. She makes my point in this case for about half a minute from ca 3:30. that said, she mentions the "huwhite community." In most of Europe, "white" is not an identity. It may be different over in States, but from my limited knowledge, there is no "white community" there either - with one possible exception being white nationalists and their ilk. (That is to say, does a huwhite games journalist from New York share a level of identity below that, which stems from common nationality with a huwhite shrimp boat crewman from Louisiana?) Is that an fair assessment?
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Davin on June 05, 2020, 06:38:47 PM
Quote from: Icarus on June 05, 2020, 03:04:28 AM
Check this out.  Here is Candace Owens a hard shell conservative I would suspect. She does make some sense, is articulate, and has a different slant  Video is a bit long but may capture some interest...........https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtPfoEvNJ74
So here is an example of many bad faith tactics.

First is the common straw man tactic, used a few times. Several times to to say that "everyone" is saying that he was a saint or a hero. That's very dishonest of her and is the same dishonest tactic the white supremacists use every time.

Another common dishonest tactic is to attack the character of the victim. Something that doesn't matter in this kind of situation, for obvious reasons.

Another common dishonest tactic used is to bring up bad statistics and to misuse them to support their preconceived notions and to twist the narrative.

Very cringy video.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Magdalena on June 05, 2020, 08:04:30 PM
Quote from: Davin on June 05, 2020, 06:38:47 PM
Quote from: Icarus on June 05, 2020, 03:04:28 AM
Check this out.  Here is Candace Owens a hard shell conservative I would suspect. She does make some sense, is articulate, and has a different slant  Video is a bit long but may capture some interest...........https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtPfoEvNJ74
So here is an example of many bad faith tactics.

First is the common straw man tactic, used a few times. Several times to say that "everyone" is saying that he was a saint or a hero. That's very dishonest of her and is the same dishonest tactic the white supremacists use every time.

Another common dishonest tactic is to attack the character of the victim. Something that doesn't matter in this kind of situation, for obvious reasons.

Another common dishonest tactic used is to bring up bad statistics and to misuse them to support their preconceived notions and to twist the narrative.

Very cringy video.
It is very cringy.
It doesn't surprise me that Icarus posted it.

"Of all the injuries inflicted by racism on people of color, the most corrosive is the wound within, the internalized racism that leads some victims, at an unspeakable cost to their own sense of self, to embrace the values of their oppressors."

--H. JACK GEIGER, CIVIL RIGHTS WORKER.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Tom62 on June 05, 2020, 08:30:49 PM
Quote from: Icarus on June 05, 2020, 03:04:28 AM
Check this out.  Here is Candace Owens a hard shell conservative I would suspect. She does make some sense, is articulate, and has a different slant  Video is a bit long but may capture some interest...........https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtPfoEvNJ74

I've watched the video as well. The criminal background of Floyd is irrelevant. He was an unarmed man who was murdered by a bad cop. Three other cops were standing around, doing nothing to stop the murder. I haven't heard a single person say that was justified (maybe the KKK and other white supremacist groups excluded) . Even Trump found it horrible. I do however agree with Owens that Floyd isn't a hero, but he is certainly a victim of police brutality. Was the murder racial motivated? I don't know since I haven't heard anything about the murder's motives yet. The murder knew George Floyd personally, so it could be possible that there were other motives.

Regarding statistics, never trust any statistics that you didn't create yourself.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Davin on June 05, 2020, 08:40:27 PM
Quote from: Tom62 on June 05, 2020, 08:30:49 PM
Regarding statistics, never trust any statistics that you didn't create yourself.
Or at least review the data that statistics came from.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Davin on June 05, 2020, 08:42:37 PM
Quote from: Magdalena on June 05, 2020, 08:04:30 PM
"Of all the injuries inflicted by racism on people of color, the most corrosive is the wound within, the internalized racism that leads some victims, at an unspeakable cost to their own sense of self, to embrace the values of their oppressors."

--H. JACK GEIGER, CIVIL RIGHTS WORKER.
There is a long history of people siding with their oppressors and even fighting for them. With the Women's Suffrage movement there women speaking out against a woman's right to vote.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Magdalena on June 05, 2020, 10:22:47 PM
Quote from: Davin on June 05, 2020, 08:42:37 PM
Quote from: Magdalena on June 05, 2020, 08:04:30 PM
"Of all the injuries inflicted by racism on people of color, the most corrosive is the wound within, the internalized racism that leads some victims, at an unspeakable cost to their own sense of self, to embrace the values of their oppressors."

--H. JACK GEIGER, CIVIL RIGHTS WORKER.
There is a long history of people siding with their oppressors and even fighting for them. With the Women's Suffrage movement there women speaking out against a woman's right to vote.

Yes, internalized sexism:
It takes the form of sexist behaviors and attitudes enacted by women toward themselves or other women and girls.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Tom62 on June 05, 2020, 11:20:46 PM
Quote from: Davin on June 05, 2020, 08:42:37 PM
Quote from: Magdalena on June 05, 2020, 08:04:30 PM
"Of all the injuries inflicted by racism on people of color, the most corrosive is the wound within, the internalized racism that leads some victims, at an unspeakable cost to their own sense of self, to embrace the values of their oppressors."

--H. JACK GEIGER, CIVIL RIGHTS WORKER.
There is a long history of people siding with their oppressors and even fighting for them. With the Women's Suffrage movement there women speaking out against a woman's right to vote.

A kind of Stockholm Syndrome?
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Magdalena on June 06, 2020, 02:33:14 AM
Quote from: Tom62 on June 05, 2020, 11:20:46 PM
Quote from: Davin on June 05, 2020, 08:42:37 PM
Quote from: Magdalena on June 05, 2020, 08:04:30 PM
"Of all the injuries inflicted by racism on people of color, the most corrosive is the wound within, the internalized racism that leads some victims, at an unspeakable cost to their own sense of self, to embrace the values of their oppressors."

--H. JACK GEIGER, CIVIL RIGHTS WORKER.
There is a long history of people siding with their oppressors and even fighting for them. With the Women's Suffrage movement there women speaking out against a woman's right to vote.

A kind of Stockholm Syndrome?
I don't think it's the same. In one, you are being held against your will. In the other one, a person's self-hate or self-perception is heavily influenced by the white majority's perception of us (minorities) and when it's constantly a negative one, it somehow becomes "true."

Stockholm Syndrome:
QuoteFeelings of trust or affection felt in many cases of kidnapping or hostage-taking by a victim toward a captor.

Internalized racism:
QuoteInternalized racism is a form of internalized oppression, defined by sociologist Karen D. Pyke as the "internalization of racial oppression by the racially subordinated."[1] In her study The Psychology of Racism, Robin Nicole Johnson emphasizes that internalized racism involves both "conscious and unconscious acceptance of a racial hierarchy in which whites are consistently ranked above people of color."[2] These definitions encompass a wide range of instances, including, but not limited to, belief in negative racial stereotypes, adaptations to white cultural standards, and thinking that supports the status quo (i.e. denying that racism exists).
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Icarus on June 06, 2020, 06:12:31 AM
Whoa!!!!   I posted that  video for the purpose of examining "the other side" point of view.  You are intelligent people who have the capacity to assess other positions whether you agree or not.

The demise of Mr. Floyd is a clear case of murder by a rogue cop. That should be clear enough. That Floyd may, or may not, have been a bad guy is irrelevant to the reality that he was murdered without due cause.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Asmodean on June 06, 2020, 09:46:12 AM
Quote from: Tom62 on June 05, 2020, 08:30:49 PM
I've watched the video as well. The criminal background of Floyd is irrelevant. He was an unarmed man who was murdered by a bad cop. Three other cops were standing around, doing nothing to stop the murder. I haven't heard a single person say that was justified (maybe the KKK and other white supremacist groups excluded) . Even Trump found it horrible.
There's a lot of intersectional weirdness in this thread, so let me lay it out as I see it, from the cold and rational depths of me not giving a shit;

Mr. Floyd's criminal background, use of narcotics, on-scene behaviour, etc are relevant to understanding the timeline of the events, as one must, were one to form an informed opinion on what happened. The same is true for the arresting officer's level of education, mental state, affiliation with the person being arrested, etc.

For instance, one way or another, Mr. Floyd ended up on the ground with a police officer on top of him. Not being standard procedure under a routine arrest, how did that happen? Every one of the above variables, and yes, also Mr. Floyd's skin colour, may or may not have had significant influence on that and other events on the timeline leading from the call being made to Mr. Floyd's demise.

Understanding the variables in a situation does not equate to blaming the victim of a crime, or to excusing the perpetrator. It does, however, paint a deeper, more detailed picture of reality for each variable accounted for. It also lets one avoid some unfortunate rushed judgements. For example, there are groups out there which will tell you as if it were a fact that this was a racially-motivated crime. How do they know that? Could there be more to it, like negligence, carelessness, psychiatric/psychological issues, one or both parties having used narcotics, the list goes on?

My point is this; a lot of people are calling for change. Some are purely virtue signalling. Some in a more level-headed and grounded way than others. Some throw bricks at businesses because... Reasons. If you want change, but only approach the situation from a surface-level analysis, how will you be able to figure out where the problem lies?
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: billy rubin on June 06, 2020, 11:01:28 AM
my number one son is out protesting in tbe capitol today.

hes an SCA reenactor, and so hes wearing padded armour under hiz clothes.i told him to take his telephone and not to bring a gun.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/ktla.com/news/local-news/advocates-sue-lapd-over-protest-tactics-alleging-disabled-homeless-man-was-shot-in-face-with-rubber-bullets-warning-graphic-image/amp/

pigs.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Randy on June 06, 2020, 02:50:22 PM
That's just downright disgusting. Are they just trigger happy or do they delight in shooting people? What was he going to do, run over them? He wasn't even protesting!
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Randy on June 06, 2020, 03:08:21 PM
Here's an article about why police lie even when faced with video evidence:
https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/06/us/police-reports-lying-videos-misconduct-trnd/index.html (https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/06/us/police-reports-lying-videos-misconduct-trnd/index.html)
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Tom62 on June 06, 2020, 05:03:14 PM
Quote from: Icarus on June 06, 2020, 06:12:31 AM
Whoa!!!!   I posted that  video for the purpose of examining "the other side" point of view.  You are intelligent people who have the capacity to assess other positions whether you agree or not.

The demise of Mr. Floyd is a clear case of murder by a rogue cop. That should be clear enough. That Floyd may, or may not, have been a bad guy is irrelevant to the reality that he was murdered without due cause.

Don't worry Icarus, Candace Owen is a very clever young lady. She is the conservative opposite "version" of AOC. I find her far more sympathetic though than AOC, who sometimes comes across as complete SJW moron.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Magdalena on June 06, 2020, 05:45:03 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on June 06, 2020, 09:46:12 AM

There's a lot of intersectional weirdness in this thread,
...
Yes, there is.
Again, I asked Tank to separate the topics, there is the case of George Floyd specifically and police brutality. There is also police brutality in general in the USA, this deserves its own space....but nooooooo.
He won't separate them. Too late now, it's all tangled.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Asmodean on June 06, 2020, 06:22:31 PM
Hmm... I could give it a shot, but it would not be a clean separation.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Magdalena on June 06, 2020, 06:57:54 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on June 06, 2020, 06:22:31 PM
Hmm... I could give it a shot, but it would not be a clean separation.
;D
That sounds like a divorce.

But seriously, you are right. it would not be a clean separation. I learned my lesson.

:notes:
Start a topic in the right place.

...But Separate them if you want, I would appreciate it.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: billy rubin on June 06, 2020, 09:38:50 PM
magdalena:

https://twitter.com/NickAndert/status/1268316722773192705?s=09
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Magdalena on June 06, 2020, 10:12:39 PM
Quote from: billy rubin on June 06, 2020, 09:38:50 PM
magdalena:

https://twitter.com/NickAndert/status/1268316722773192705?s=09
Wow!
Yes, this is the LAPD.
It has always been like this.
(Image:1991)
(https://thehumandivinedotorg.files.wordpress.com/2018/03/tumblr_naagv9fzfm1rdrc28o1_400.gif?w=316&h=211)
Looks like these mother fuckers never got a chance to beat up a piñata when they were kids.  :grrr:
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: billy rubin on June 06, 2020, 10:17:13 PM
well, my son got back from his demnstration without incident.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Magdalena on June 06, 2020, 11:54:30 PM
Quote from: billy rubin on June 06, 2020, 10:17:13 PM
well, my son got back from his demnstration without incident.
Good to hear.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: billy rubin on June 07, 2020, 12:24:10 AM
yes

hes something of a hothead and i would prefer him not tobe up in the front
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Randy on June 07, 2020, 12:35:38 AM
How old is your son, Billy?
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Dark Lightning on June 07, 2020, 02:32:59 AM
There was a silent demonstration in my hometown. Some businesses were boarded up, but nobody (on either side) got stupid, for which I am thankful. I'm 67 YO and while I agree that PoC should not be getting killed (or even beaten) like is happening, I'm not offering my near-terminal body up for that.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Anne D. on June 07, 2020, 06:07:05 AM
Quote from: Asmodean on June 06, 2020, 09:46:12 AM
Quote from: Tom62 on June 05, 2020, 08:30:49 PM
I've watched the video as well. The criminal background of Floyd is irrelevant. He was an unarmed man who was murdered by a bad cop. Three other cops were standing around, doing nothing to stop the murder. I haven't heard a single person say that was justified (maybe the KKK and other white supremacist groups excluded) . Even Trump found it horrible.
There's a lot of intersectional weirdness in this thread, so let me lay it out as I see it, from the cold and rational depths of me not giving a shit;

Mr. Floyd's criminal background, use of narcotics, on-scene behaviour, etc are relevant to understanding the timeline of the events, as one must, were one to form an informed opinion on what happened. The same is true for the arresting officer's level of education, mental state, affiliation with the person being arrested, etc.

For instance, one way or another, Mr. Floyd ended up on the ground with a police officer on top of him. Not being standard procedure under a routine arrest, how did that happen? Every one of the above variables, and yes, also Mr. Floyd's skin colour, may or may not have had significant influence on that and other events on the timeline leading from the call being made to Mr. Floyd's demise.

Understanding the variables in a situation does not equate to blaming the victim of a crime, or to excusing the perpetrator. It does, however, paint a deeper, more detailed picture of reality for each variable accounted for. It also lets one avoid some unfortunate rushed judgements. For example, there are groups out there which will tell you as if it were a fact that this was a racially-motivated crime. How do they know that? Could there be more to it, like negligence, carelessness, psychiatric/psychological issues, one or both parties having used narcotics, the list goes on?

My point is this; a lot of people are calling for change. Some are purely virtue signalling. Some in a more level-headed and grounded way than others. Some throw bricks at businesses because... Reasons. If you want change, but only approach the situation from a surface-level analysis, how will you be able to figure out where the problem lies?

Asmo, you have no conception of how deeply racism runs in the US, and you have no conception of how deeply racist the MPD's history is. Google Bob Kroll. That's the cretin that MPD officers have chosen as their leader. Have you watched the video of George Floyd's death, seen the smirking MPD officer who killed him? You don't have to post every inane thought that passes through your mind. This isn't virtue signaling, it's disgust. If you don't know of what you speak, consider not speaking.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Tom62 on June 07, 2020, 07:01:19 AM
15,000 people were protesting in Berlin. Social distancing was ignored and many shops were destroyed. WTF, Antifa????
This has nothing to do with racism.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Magdalena on June 07, 2020, 07:25:54 AM
I have a question:
Does this, Antifa group, do they have a leader?
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Tom62 on June 07, 2020, 09:22:24 AM
Quote from: Magdalena on June 07, 2020, 07:25:54 AM
I have a question:
Does this, Antifa group, do they have a leader?

I don't know and I frankly don't care how Antifa organises themselves (could be different in every country). Fact is (and I'm not pleased with it at all) that these scumbags think it is OK to destroy shops in Germany because a bad cop murdered a black man in the USA.

One thing I have to make clear is that I DON'T associate the 15,000 peaceful protesters in Berlin with these nasty destructive actions. 
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: billy rubin on June 07, 2020, 09:32:29 AM
Quote from: Randy on June 07, 2020, 12:35:38 AM
How old is your son, Billy?

hes 23

concerned about injusyice, disillusioned with the failed system. skeptical of change from within.

good kid.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: billy rubin on June 07, 2020, 09:38:15 AM
Quote from: Magdalena on June 07, 2020, 07:25:54 AM
I have a question:
Does this, Antifa group, do they have a leader?

no.

its just a name unaffiliated small groups of people have decided to call themselves. theres no group, no organization. they share a left wing ideology. probably some anarchists in there.

their style is violent and confrontational. just left wing thugs out in the streets fighting right wing thugs.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Tom62 on June 07, 2020, 12:09:17 PM
Quote from: billy rubin on June 07, 2020, 09:38:15 AM
Quote from: Magdalena on June 07, 2020, 07:25:54 AM
I have a question:
Does this, Antifa group, do they have a leader?

no.

its just a name unaffiliated small groups of people have decided to call themselves. theres no group, no organization. they share a left wing ideology. probably some anarchists in there.

their style is violent and confrontational. just left wing thugs out in the streets fighting right wing thugs.

Good point. Fighting right wing thugs sounds fine with me. However, since they also attack moderate liberals and conservatives, I have a feeling that they label anyone a fascist, who isn't as much on the left as they are.   
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: billy rubin on June 07, 2020, 12:42:54 PM
the circle of politics on tbe right runs moderate to conservative to reactionary ti vigilante to anarchist.

on the left is moderate to liberal to radical to revolutionary to anarchist.

both ends meet the other. if you turn the sound off so you cannot hear the propaganda, there is very little difference between right wing militias and left wing antifa.

while they have political differences, they hold the same values,  use the same methods, and leave the same chaos in their wake.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Tom62 on June 07, 2020, 01:58:44 PM
^Hear, hear! I've even seen people switching from one extreme to the other. That might be easy, if people are angry or disillusioned about the society.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Davin on June 08, 2020, 03:57:04 PM
Quote from: Magdalena on June 06, 2020, 10:12:39 PM
Quote from: billy rubin on June 06, 2020, 09:38:50 PM
magdalena:

https://twitter.com/NickAndert/status/1268316722773192705?s=09
Wow!
Yes, this is the LAPD.
It has always been like this.
(Image:1991)
(https://thehumandivinedotorg.files.wordpress.com/2018/03/tumblr_naagv9fzfm1rdrc28o1_400.gif?w=316&h=211)
Looks like these mother fuckers never got a chance to beat up a piñata when they were kids.  :grrr:
This incident inspired the incoming union president to go for it. Apparently the incoming president didn't like being put on the "problem officer" list for his use of excessive force against minorities. Apparently he doesn't want what happened to him (hardly anything), happen to any other officer because the idea that an officer should face consequences for their actions is so scary to these guys that they'll do anything (lie, cheat, steal, intimidate, and murder), to avoid facing any punishment for bad behavior.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Davin on June 08, 2020, 04:02:10 PM
This guy, dressed suspiciously as a fire fighter sitting in a car right outside his fire station, was apparently very suspicious for some reason.



Officers that see phantom guns, I think, should be riding the desk. That kind of eye or hallucination problem I think should disqualify them from operating guns in the public.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Davin on June 08, 2020, 04:05:22 PM
(https://i.redd.it/ezhufdgn2i351.png)

Data (https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/investigations/police-shootings-database/)
Data (No paywall) (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1dKmaV_JiWcG8XBoRgP8b4e9Eopkpgt7FL7nyspvzAsE/edit#gid=0)
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on June 08, 2020, 04:33:48 PM
The best way to root out the institutional racism in police departments is simply to hit back hard when this kind of oppression occurs. The local prosecutor needs to have the guts to bring charges, the city needs to fire the violators immediately, the Justice Dept. needs to sue them for civil rights violations, and multiple peaceful protests need to be organized.  The violent protests are counterproductive. We can root this thing out - after multiple suits and prosecutions, bad cops either won't want to be on the force or they will simply change their actions.

Violent protests distract from the job at hand, and calls for defunding the police are simply non-workable. We need a police force, but one that respects and is trusted by the community.  Positive efforts to recruit more minority cops is also a positive step.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Randy on June 08, 2020, 04:42:37 PM
I agree with Bruce. He worded it far better than I could ever.

Minneapolis is already attempting to defund and dismantle their police department. While I don't agree with them having the power they do I somehow think this is going to bite back.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Tom62 on June 08, 2020, 06:20:13 PM
I fully agree with Bruce as well. There is a danger that crime rates will go up if you defund the police (Ferguson effect). Most likely gun sales will go up as well, because people think that they need to protect themselves. 
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Magdalena on June 08, 2020, 08:20:37 PM
Quote from: Davin on June 08, 2020, 04:02:10 PM
This guy, dressed suspiciously as a fire fighter sitting in a car right outside his fire station, was apparently very suspicious for some reason.



Officers that see phantom guns, I think, should be riding the desk. That kind of eye or hallucination problem I think should disqualify them from operating guns in the public.
That's so messed up.
My man goes through this shit all the time. They pull him over, handcuff him, placed in a police car while they search the car, then they let him go. I live with fear thinking one day they're gonna kill him just for driving to work while being brown.

Like this:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/philando-castile-minnesota-black-man-killed-by-police-family-speaks-out/ (https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/philando-castile-minnesota-black-man-killed-by-police-family-speaks-out/)
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Davin on June 08, 2020, 11:38:41 PM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on June 08, 2020, 04:33:48 PM
The best way to root out the institutional racism in police departments is simply to hit back hard when this kind of oppression occurs. The local prosecutor needs to have the guts to bring charges, the city needs to fire the violators immediately, the Justice Dept. needs to sue them for civil rights violations, and multiple peaceful protests need to be organized.
We'd all have loved for the problem to be solved the best way. After a few decades, it looks like not very many people want to do it that way.

Quote from: Ecurb NoselrubThe violent protests are counterproductive.
There is a lot wrong with that. It's weird how a "few bad apples" in the police is acceptable, we need to calm down and keep trying the same things over and over again. But a "few bad apples" in the protestors means we have to shut the whole thing down because it's being counter productive.

And there are many times on camera showing that the cops are starting with the violence against the peaceful protestors.

Quote from: Ecurb NoselrubWe can root this thing out - after multiple suits and prosecutions, bad cops either won't want to be on the force or they will simply change their actions.
Your optimism is noted, but in reality, it looks like all the suits and prosecutions are doing is giving the bad cops paid vacations and the tax payers paying the victims. There have been a lot of suits and prosecutions. They amount to almost nothing and the only effect they seem to have is to make the situation worse for everyone but the cops.

Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub
Violent protests distract from the job at hand, and calls for defunding the police are simply non-workable.
Yes, the violence in the protests does distract from the problem at hand. It's weird how the police keep starting shit and spraying peaceful people in the face with mace (something that we're not allowed to do to enemy combatants in a war).

Why not defund the police and create something better instead? Why is that not workable? So far, over the last few decades, police reform hasn't fixed anything. Maybe starting over from scratch is the way to go. Maybe defund them down to something simple and basic and create other institutions that are better equipped to handle more specific situations.

Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub
We need a police force, but one that respects and is trusted by the community. Positive efforts to recruit more minority cops is also a positive step.
If you keep trying the same thing over and over again and it's still not working, maybe the tactic is wrong.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Davin on June 08, 2020, 11:56:54 PM
Quote from: Magdalena on June 08, 2020, 08:20:37 PM
Quote from: Davin on June 08, 2020, 04:02:10 PM
This guy, dressed suspiciously as a fire fighter sitting in a car right outside his fire station, was apparently very suspicious for some reason.



Officers that see phantom guns, I think, should be riding the desk. That kind of eye or hallucination problem I think should disqualify them from operating guns in the public.
That's so messed up.
My man goes through this shit all the time. They pull him over, handcuff him, placed in a police car while they search the car, then they let him go. I live with fear thinking one day they're gonna kill him just for driving to work while being brown.

Like this:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/philando-castile-minnesota-black-man-killed-by-police-family-speaks-out/ (https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/philando-castile-minnesota-black-man-killed-by-police-family-speaks-out/)
I've been stopped by the police on several occasions when I've been doing nothing wrong. It's not great.

And Castile is a sad example to bring up. He followed all the orders of the cop. He did nothing wrong. And he was still shot dead. It's not the first time something like that has happened.

What is at issue here, is that I am an American citizen who obeys most of the laws (I do go +5 over the speed limit from time to time). People say I should just comply with anything the officer says, like I'm a hostage. As soon as a cop decides I'm suspicious, for whatever random, fucked up, inconsistent reason they feel like on that day, I'm supposed to just do whatever they say like I have no rights. And that is supremely fucked up. And it's fucked up that people support that. We should have unassailable rights as free law abiding citizens of this country. I get that in some situations, some things might be skirted. Cops should not have the power that they currently have.

And it would be great if I could trust the system, that they take care of and weed out the bad apples. But that clearly is not happening. Cops are getting transferred like the pedo priests in the Catholic Church. One guy got fired and then hired back for a few months so he could get a pension. But it's like the saying goes, "a few apples spoil the bunch." But I feel like people keep thinking that a few bad apples means things aren't so bad.

I should not have public servants roll up on me three cars deep and pull their guns on me while I'm walking down the sidewalk to college. I should not of had to be the calm one in the situation like I had to be when I was being held up at gun point. It's fucked up. It's been fucked up for a long time. And I'm fed up with things going backwards.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Davin on June 09, 2020, 12:17:00 AM

These violent protestor sure was giving the protests against police brutality a bad name. Look how violent the 75 year old man was being.

Watch the "few bad apples" walk right by and do nothing while he's bleeding from his ear. Well, at least it looks like one of the "good ones" was going to help the old man they just shoved to the ground, but the bad apples just wouldn't let him. Because a few bad apples spoils the bunch.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Sandra Craft on June 09, 2020, 12:43:51 AM
re: bad apples.

Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Magdalena on June 09, 2020, 12:50:28 AM
Quote from: Davin on June 08, 2020, 11:56:54 PM
Quote from: Magdalena on June 08, 2020, 08:20:37 PM
Quote from: Davin on June 08, 2020, 04:02:10 PM
This guy, dressed suspiciously as a fire fighter sitting in a car right outside his fire station, was apparently very suspicious for some reason.



Officers that see phantom guns, I think, should be riding the desk. That kind of eye or hallucination problem I think should disqualify them from operating guns in the public.
That's so messed up.
My man goes through this shit all the time. They pull him over, handcuff him, placed in a police car while they search the car, then they let him go. I live with fear thinking one day they're gonna kill him just for driving to work while being brown.

Like this:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/philando-castile-minnesota-black-man-killed-by-police-family-speaks-out/ (https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/philando-castile-minnesota-black-man-killed-by-police-family-speaks-out/)
I've been stopped by the police on several occasions when I've been doing nothing wrong. It's not great.

And Castile is a sad example to bring up. He followed all the orders of the cop. He did nothing wrong. And he was still shot dead. It's not the first time something like that has happened.

What is at issue here, is that I am an American citizen who obeys most of the laws (I do go +5 over the speed limit from time to time). People say I should just comply with anything the officer says like I'm a hostage. As soon as a cop decides I'm suspicious, for whatever random, fucked up, inconsistent reason they feel like on that day, I'm supposed to just do whatever they say like I have no rights. And that is supremely fucked up. And it's fucked up that people support that. We should have unassailable rights as free law abiding citizens of this country. I get that in some situations, some things might be skirted. Cops should not have the power that they currently have.

And it would be great if I could trust the system, that they take care of and weed out the bad apples. But that clearly is not happening. Cops are getting transferred like the pedo priests in the Catholic Church. One guy got fired and then hired back for a few months so he could get a pension. But it's like the saying goes, "a few apples spoil the bunch." But I feel like people keep thinking that a few bad apples means things aren't so bad.

I should not have public servants roll up on me three cars deep and pull their guns on me while I'm walking down the sidewalk to college. I should not of had to be the calm one in the situation like I had to be when I was being held up at gun point. It's fucked up. It's been fucked up for a long time. And I'm fed up with things going backwards.
I hear you, Davin. My man has survived because when the po-po asks him for his driver's license, he always says to them:
" It's in my back pocket. Can I take it out?" When they reply, "Yes." He takes it out.
:secrets1: Just to avoid,
:airquotes: misunderstandings. :airquotes:

It's like being in front of a T-rex.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/VG3xOMgYABcKk/giphy.gif)

It's fucked up. It shouldn't be like that.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: billy rubin on June 09, 2020, 01:16:30 AM
we used to call them pigs.

then that became unfashionable.

well, if nothing changes, everything comes back into style eventually.

pigs.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: xSilverPhinx on June 09, 2020, 01:30:55 AM
Quote from: Davin on June 09, 2020, 12:17:00 AM

These violent protestor sure was giving the protests against police brutality a bad name. Look how violent the 75 year old man was being.

Watch the "few bad apples" walk right by and do nothing while he's bleeding from his ear. Well, at least it looks like one of the "good ones" was going to help the old man they just shoved to the ground, but the bad apples just wouldn't let him. Because a few bad apples spoils the bunch.

That's just so fucked up. Like, really fucked up.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Magdalena on June 09, 2020, 08:43:54 AM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on June 09, 2020, 01:30:55 AM
Quote from: Davin on June 09, 2020, 12:17:00 AM

These violent protestor sure was giving the protests against police brutality a bad name. Look how violent the 75 year old man was being.

Watch the "few bad apples" walk right by and do nothing while he's bleeding from his ear. Well, at least it looks like one of the "good ones" was going to help the old man they just shoved to the ground, but the bad apples just wouldn't let him. Because a few bad apples spoils the bunch.

That's just so fucked up. Like, really fucked up.
Do you want to hear what's more fucked up than that?

Florida police organization offers to hire cops who were fired or resigned over police misconduct
Quote
...On Saturday, the Brevard County chapter of the Fraternal Order of Police posted a message on Facebook addressed to the "Buffalo 57" and "Atlanta 6," saying that it was "hiring."

"Buffalo 57" appears to refer to the 57 police officers in Buffalo, New York, who resigned from the force's emergency response team following the suspension of two officers who were captured on video pushing a 75-year-old protester to the ground.

"Atlanta 6" refers to the six Atlanta police officers who were booked, five on felony charges, after being accused of using excessive force on two black college students who were leaving a protest in their car. In a video recording of the incident, the officers are seen breaking the vehicle's windows, pulling the female student out of the car and tasing the male student.
...
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/06/08/us/brevard-county-florida-police-union-misconduct-trnd/index.html (https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/06/08/us/brevard-county-florida-police-union-misconduct-trnd/index.html)
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on June 09, 2020, 03:27:55 PM
So, Davin, hypothetically, what other institutions would you create to take the place of the police?  Seems like a Utopian fantasy to me, but let's hear what you have to say. You are the Mayor of Newville, population 250,000, and have just defunded your police department. What now?
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Davin on June 09, 2020, 03:44:57 PM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on June 09, 2020, 03:27:55 PM
Seems like a Utopian fantasy to me, but let's hear what you have to say.
Before I answer your question, I really have to know how it can sound like a Utopian fantasy to you before you even asked me to say anything about it?

And how does your imaginary version that you created in your own head sound any more Utopian than the tried and failed for decades way you mentioned for correcting the problem.

Also, it may fix the completely made up and imaginary version you created in your head to understand that we've been defunding schools for decades, and schools are still around.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Davin on June 09, 2020, 03:52:53 PM
Quote from: Magdalena on June 09, 2020, 12:50:28 AM
Quote from: Davin on June 08, 2020, 11:56:54 PM
Quote from: Magdalena on June 08, 2020, 08:20:37 PM
Quote from: Davin on June 08, 2020, 04:02:10 PM
This guy, dressed suspiciously as a fire fighter sitting in a car right outside his fire station, was apparently very suspicious for some reason.



Officers that see phantom guns, I think, should be riding the desk. That kind of eye or hallucination problem I think should disqualify them from operating guns in the public.
That's so messed up.
My man goes through this shit all the time. They pull him over, handcuff him, placed in a police car while they search the car, then they let him go. I live with fear thinking one day they're gonna kill him just for driving to work while being brown.

Like this:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/philando-castile-minnesota-black-man-killed-by-police-family-speaks-out/ (https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/philando-castile-minnesota-black-man-killed-by-police-family-speaks-out/)
I've been stopped by the police on several occasions when I've been doing nothing wrong. It's not great.

And Castile is a sad example to bring up. He followed all the orders of the cop. He did nothing wrong. And he was still shot dead. It's not the first time something like that has happened.

What is at issue here, is that I am an American citizen who obeys most of the laws (I do go +5 over the speed limit from time to time). People say I should just comply with anything the officer says like I'm a hostage. As soon as a cop decides I'm suspicious, for whatever random, fucked up, inconsistent reason they feel like on that day, I'm supposed to just do whatever they say like I have no rights. And that is supremely fucked up. And it's fucked up that people support that. We should have unassailable rights as free law abiding citizens of this country. I get that in some situations, some things might be skirted. Cops should not have the power that they currently have.

And it would be great if I could trust the system, that they take care of and weed out the bad apples. But that clearly is not happening. Cops are getting transferred like the pedo priests in the Catholic Church. One guy got fired and then hired back for a few months so he could get a pension. But it's like the saying goes, "a few apples spoil the bunch." But I feel like people keep thinking that a few bad apples means things aren't so bad.

I should not have public servants roll up on me three cars deep and pull their guns on me while I'm walking down the sidewalk to college. I should not of had to be the calm one in the situation like I had to be when I was being held up at gun point. It's fucked up. It's been fucked up for a long time. And I'm fed up with things going backwards.
I hear you, Davin. My man has survived because when the po-po asks him for his driver's license, he always says to them:
" It's in my back pocket. Can I take it out?" When they reply, "Yes." He takes it out.
:secrets1: Just to avoid,
:airquotes: misunderstandings. :airquotes:

It's like being in front of a T-rex.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/VG3xOMgYABcKk/giphy.gif)

It's fucked up. It shouldn't be like that.
That's the best one can do, but it doesn't guarantee safety.

First it's fucked up that in this country we have to give advice to people on how to survive a police encounter. And it's further fucked up that that advice is the same advice we give to hostages.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Davin on June 09, 2020, 03:54:03 PM
Quote from: Magdalena on June 09, 2020, 08:43:54 AM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on June 09, 2020, 01:30:55 AM
Quote from: Davin on June 09, 2020, 12:17:00 AM

These violent protestor sure was giving the protests against police brutality a bad name. Look how violent the 75 year old man was being.

Watch the "few bad apples" walk right by and do nothing while he's bleeding from his ear. Well, at least it looks like one of the "good ones" was going to help the old man they just shoved to the ground, but the bad apples just wouldn't let him. Because a few bad apples spoils the bunch.

That's just so fucked up. Like, really fucked up.
Do you want to hear what's more fucked up than that?

Florida police organization offers to hire cops who were fired or resigned over police misconduct
Quote
...On Saturday, the Brevard County chapter of the Fraternal Order of Police posted a message on Facebook addressed to the "Buffalo 57" and "Atlanta 6," saying that it was "hiring."

"Buffalo 57" appears to refer to the 57 police officers in Buffalo, New York, who resigned from the force's emergency response team following the suspension of two officers who were captured on video pushing a 75-year-old protester to the ground.

"Atlanta 6" refers to the six Atlanta police officers who were booked, five on felony charges, after being accused of using excessive force on two black college students who were leaving a protest in their car. In a video recording of the incident, the officers are seen breaking the vehicle's windows, pulling the female student out of the car and tasing the male student.
...
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/06/08/us/brevard-county-florida-police-union-misconduct-trnd/index.html (https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/06/08/us/brevard-county-florida-police-union-misconduct-trnd/index.html)
Also, the squad cheered for the two officers who were charged on their way out of the court house.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Davin on June 09, 2020, 04:00:09 PM
Here's a small montage of some brutal police being brutal to people protesting police brutality.


Some of them bad apples that people are protesting about are on protest duty. Too bad all these violent protests are giving the protestors a bad name instead of these clearly non-violent police.

Also, it's important to remember that the spray they are using against our fellow citizens is a war crime.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Tom62 on June 09, 2020, 05:41:59 PM
I don't know if replacing he police by something else would be a good idea. If you are going to that then the new "police force" would have to perform the same tasks as current police force (minus the brutality, of course). So replacing one police force by something similar doesn't seem to bring much. In any case you'd have to train the substitutes and if you want to have them properly trained that would costs years. In the meanwhile you'd need a transition period where tasks are shifted from one organisation to another. There is a likelihood that this could backfire enormously.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: billy rubin on June 09, 2020, 06:03:15 PM
de-militarizing is a good place to start. in america the military disposes of its surplus vehicles and armamnt by donating it to police forces. my local force in a town in california had an armoured humvee with a machine gun turret on top. here in ohio, the local force has an surplus personnell carrier that they use to drive cops around in.

for what?

all that this does is perpetuate the warrior culture that american police have devolved into. these people are not supposed to be soldiers, but that is ho w they think of themselves, and that is how they are equipped. instead of being there to "serve and protect," they see their role being to "intimidate and enforce."

perhaps removing the helmets and shields and projectile weapons from riot cops would help in changing their minds about who they are.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Randy on June 09, 2020, 08:59:19 PM
My first wife had a friend whose husband was a cop. We were invited to their apartment one evening for drinks.

Naturally, he and I talked while the women talked in the kitchen. He said something along the lines of how he didn't trust people like me. I'm not sure what he meant by that now but my reply was, "That's okay. I don't trust you either." We weren't drunk. In fact, I think we were on our first beer.

Anyway, I have my reasons and maybe one day I'll explain them but I've had some bad dealings with cops. I've had some good ones too but the bad ones make me leery. She was a detective and I'll leave it at that.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: billy rubin on June 09, 2020, 11:22:29 PM
there is a need for police in our culture, no doubt about it. while 99 percent of what they do is talk to people and write stuff down after a crime has been committed and the culprit is long gone, they do respond to hostage situations, domestic violence, and crazy people doing crazy things that endanger people.

in a civil society there is a need for someone to have doing that as their job.

but the procedures that are necessary to counter and subdue dangerous people who are a threat to others have no place being used against people who are not dangerous and who are not posing a threat to other people.

that behavior is condoned by the police culture that we have now, and the culture is what needs to change. i'm not sure that it can change, as i have seen a continuation of brutality by the police for my entire lifetime. i ride a motorcycle, and i have had my occasional encounter with abrasive police officers who assume that i am something to intimidate because of that.

i think eliminating the police is a bad idea, but i think its underlying structure is badly in need of a radical redesign. im very interested to see what minneapolis comes up with, and how well it works.



Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on June 10, 2020, 04:21:30 PM
Quote from: Davin on June 09, 2020, 03:44:57 PM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on June 09, 2020, 03:27:55 PM
Seems like a Utopian fantasy to me, but let's hear what you have to say.
Before I answer your question, I really have to know how it can sound like a Utopian fantasy to you before you even asked me to say anything about it?

And how does your imaginary version that you created in your own head sound any more Utopian than the tried and failed for decades way you mentioned for correcting the problem.

Also, it may fix the completely made up and imaginary version you created in your head to understand that we've been defunding schools for decades, and schools are still around.

Obviously, we have not completely defunded schools.  We fund them through taxes. That is why they are there.  Nobody is saying we should stop providing money for schools. The calls for defunding police are related to completely disbanding PDs.  The reason this is Utopian is because it envisions a world in which we do not need security provided by a professional force.  But if you have some proposal, I would like to hear it.

There are problems with police. But except for situations like George Floyd, they generally provide a valuable service of keeping society safe. Rather than throw the baby out with the bath water, my position is that we double down on rooting out institutional racism in the PDs.  I don't think we have really given a concerted effort to that.

I realize you disagree with me - that is clear. But rather than pointing out your disagreement with me, propose an alternative solution.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Davin on June 10, 2020, 08:30:46 PM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on June 10, 2020, 04:21:30 PM
Quote from: Davin on June 09, 2020, 03:44:57 PM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on June 09, 2020, 03:27:55 PM
Seems like a Utopian fantasy to me, but let's hear what you have to say.
Before I answer your question, I really have to know how it can sound like a Utopian fantasy to you before you even asked me to say anything about it?

And how does your imaginary version that you created in your own head sound any more Utopian than the tried and failed for decades way you mentioned for correcting the problem.

Also, it may fix the completely made up and imaginary version you created in your head to understand that we've been defunding schools for decades, and schools are still around.

Obviously, we have not completely defunded schools.  We fund them through taxes. That is why they are there.  Nobody is saying we should stop providing money for schools.
Woosh. Too far over your head, huh?

Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub
The calls for defunding police are related to completely disbanding PDs.
This statement makes it look like you're not listening to the calls. You are taking a very minority opinion as the overall opinion and implying there are no other opinions.

Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub
The reason this is Utopian is because it envisions a world in which we do not need security provided by a professional force.  But if you have some proposal, I would like to hear it.
Yes, this why people like using straw men instead of what is actually said, because they are easy to defeat.

Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub
There are problems with police. But except for situations like George Floyd, they generally provide a valuable service of keeping society safe. Rather than throw the baby out with the bath water, my position is that we double down on rooting out institutional racism in the PDs.  I don't think we have really given a concerted effort to that.
I like your optimistic and naive view that makes things safe for you and doesn't risk anything you currently have while possibly, sometime in the future, fix the problems that people other than you are facing. Very courageous stance.

Yes, we're so safe that any encounter with a police officer makes us a hostage without any certainty they will not overstep and harm or kill us for irrational reasons. With little to no enforcement for those that do overstep. Even with video evidence available showing bad cops doing bad things, they get a paid vacation, maybe moved to another precinct like a Catholic pedo priest, or fired in very rare situations.

Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub
I realize you disagree with me - that is clear. But rather than pointing out your disagreement with me, propose an alternative solution.
Well, since you seemed to miss the point of my last post entirely. What does it matter if we talk, if you've already made up your mind?

You said my ideas were a Utopian fantasy, before I said what those ideas were. That's a lot of irrational bias that works against having an honest discussion that you expect me to work against. I'm trying to have an honest discussion, it would work better if you were as well.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Tom62 on June 10, 2020, 09:47:04 PM
Sorry to say so, but I find the arguments of this pastor very convincing

Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: billy rubin on June 10, 2020, 11:00:13 PM
what did he say?

i live in the land of slo-fi, and if a video doesn't do something after 60 seconds i move on.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: jumbojak on June 11, 2020, 01:44:11 AM
He said that in Cleveland crime went up after cuts were made to the police budget to provide other essential services, which is neither here nor there in discussing replacing the current model of policing with something different. Arguing that more crime results from a smaller number of police officers who behave in the same way as a larger number of police officers is silly. The problem is police behavior, which is a result of the current structure of law enforcement in the US. You can't expect the same people operating under the same rules to behave differently.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Icarus on June 11, 2020, 02:16:11 AM
Billy, What he said was that all cops are not bad cops. He had been intimidated by a cop on more than one occasion, he had instructed his son about how to behave when he was stopped when driving while black. The minister was careful to say that most cops are not bad guys and most of them are not dedicated racists.

When we translate the pastors commentary, it means that our society is a mixed bag and that there are some of us that are fucked up with some kind of learned hate.   I concur. There are some of us, mostly the unsophisticated clods who never read a book or newspaper, who are either closeted or outed racists.
...

My sermon: Some cops are stupid bastards who have some sort of superiority complex that they believe entitles them to abuse or even kill people that they believe are unworthy.  Well surprise, surprise. The problem is not exclusive to cops.  I have worked with engineers who were stupid bastards with a complex. Some of our Lawyers, accountants, politicians, and doctors also suffer from the hate syndrome. Most of those professionals have actually read books and newspapers but have  chosen sources that cater to the preconceived notions that they had already embraced. In defense of the above professionals, I agree that most of them do not kill people directly. Neither do the vast majority of cops kill people as a sport.

Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on June 11, 2020, 02:27:24 AM
Well, it appears Davin does not want to tell us his plan to defund police.  I suppose I must remain in my ignorance.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Davin on June 12, 2020, 03:34:26 PM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on June 11, 2020, 02:27:24 AM
Well, it appears Davin does not want to tell us his plan to defund police.  I suppose I must remain in my ignorance.
You acted in bad faith, until that is resolved, there is no point in moving on to a nuanced discussion because it does not look like you can handle it.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Davin on June 12, 2020, 03:37:38 PM
Quote from: Tom62 on June 10, 2020, 09:47:04 PM
Sorry to say so, but I find the arguments of this pastor very convincing


I can't listen right now, so I cannot form an opinion. See how that works Bruce? First you hear what the person is saying, and then you form an opinion based off of what they are saying.

What parts of his argument do you find convincing and why?
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Davin on June 12, 2020, 03:52:02 PM
Quote from: Icarus on June 11, 2020, 02:16:11 AM
Billy, What he said was that all cops are not bad cops. He had been intimidated by a cop on more than one occasion, he had instructed his son about how to behave when he was stopped when driving while black. The minister was careful to say that most cops are not bad guys and most of them are not dedicated racists.

When we translate the pastors commentary, it means that our society is a mixed bag and that there are some of us that are fucked up with some kind of learned hate.   I concur. There are some of us, mostly the unsophisticated clods who never read a book or newspaper, who are either closeted or outed racists.
...

My sermon: Some cops are stupid bastards who have some sort of superiority complex that they believe entitles them to abuse or even kill people that they believe are unworthy.  Well surprise, surprise. The problem is not exclusive to cops.  I have worked with engineers who were stupid bastards with a complex. Some of our Lawyers, accountants, politicians, and doctors also suffer from the hate syndrome. Most of those professionals have actually read books and newspapers but have  chosen sources that cater to the preconceived notions that they had already embraced. In defense of the above professionals, I agree that most of them do not kill people directly. Neither do the vast majority of cops kill people as a sport.
Cops need to be held to a higher standard than the rest of us. Currently and for a long time, cops have been held to a lower standard. If one of them engineers got on a power trip and killed someone, it's highly likely that that engineer would be subject to consequences. Not so much for cops, it's about the opposite. Cops that have killed people while on a power trip have rarely faced consequences, and those that did, it's even rarer that they will lose their job.

Near where I live, an unarmed man was shot dead by a cop. The cop had a body cam that clearly showed the guy trying to comply with contradictory orders. When the guy went to pull up his pants, the cop shot him several times with an assault rifle. The cop was let off because the jury was instructed to only consider the one second of video before the cop shot him. That cop eventually got fired because of the story getting nationwide media attention. Then the cop got rehired for three months so that he could get his pension, so now the public is paying both the shitty cop for the rest of his life and the family of the man he murdered.

Yes, there are people that go on power trips in all walks of life. But when that person has a gun and their job is to protect and serve, then their behavior needs to be held to a higher standard than the rest of us because of the power that they have. With great power, should come great responsibility.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Anne D. on June 13, 2020, 07:41:27 AM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on June 11, 2020, 02:27:24 AM
Well, it appears Davin does not want to tell us his plan to defund police.  I suppose I must remain in my ignorance.

I'm not Davin, but I'll tell you what defunding police means for my community.

I live in Minneapolis and have done for the past 5+ years. I am ecstatic that my city councilmember is among those who've pledged to dismantle the MPD. Dismantling the MPD doesn't mean there's no law enforcement. It means that, in the short term, Minneapolis may end up contracting for law enforcement from another jurisdiction. And it means that, in the long term, we build a new Minneapolis law enforcement agency from the ground up, with a much smaller footprint than the current MPD. And we funnel much of the funding previously earmarked for MPD to non-law-enforcement (social work and treatment) entities that can respond to 911 calls involving mental health or drug crises.

When all you've got is a hammer (police), everything starts to look like a nail. The US locks up a ridiculous percentage of our citizens for behavior that shouldn't be criminalized. And once you're in the "system," it's difficult to get out, especially if you're poor. Once you're on probation, you've got someone in your business 24-7.

But I digress.

MPD is beyond repair or reform. Citizens have been trying to reform it since the 1960s. Every X number of years, an officer murders a resident, and a new citizen review board is set up, with no actual power. And after a few years, the citizen review board is dismantled. As a local organization that is committed to defunding MPD, MPD 150, has pointed out, what's more "pie in the sky," defunding MPD and starting anew, or thinking that a new tweak to the existing department will improve outcomes in the future?

Monthly, MPD pays out thousands of dollars to settle excessive-force suits.

It does no good to fire the "bad apples." The police union (which broke with the mainstream US labor movement in the 1930s) is all powerful, and the city is forced to hire back the fired cops a few months later. The union contract is negotiated between the city and the union reps, but if the city council chooses not to approve the new contract, that just means that the old contract continues.

MPD has had the feds step in to review the department, but MPD has yet to implement those reforms. And there's no consequence for not implementing them, so why would MPD comply?

I don't think simply slashing the MPD budget is the answer either. I've heard it pointed out that doing that means the younger, possibly more progressive officers are fired, leaving us with older officers already steeped in MPD's racist culture and failed ways.

It doesn't matter that there are good cops. They can have very little impact when the department as a whole and as an institution is rotten and beyond rehabilitation and when the majority of cops give their fealty to the racist police union. Time for a completely new agency.

And the problems in Minneapolis and MPD aren't unique to here. This needs to happen nationwide.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Tank on June 13, 2020, 07:54:26 AM
Thanks for your local insight Anne D. This is the sort of thing I love about social media, direct experience.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Magdalena on June 13, 2020, 08:33:53 AM
Quote from: Tank on June 13, 2020, 07:54:26 AM
Thanks for your local insight Anne D. This is the sort of thing I love about social media, direct experience.
:this:
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Randy on June 13, 2020, 01:42:33 PM
Anne D., That is more informed than I could get on the news. Please continue to enlighten us.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: xSilverPhinx on November 23, 2020, 05:09:06 PM
Where I live a black man was beaten to death by a security guard and police officer few days ago in a supermarket, which sparked a national wave of protests, riots and vandalism.

Killing of black man by guards at Brazil supermarket sparks protests (BBC) (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-55020915)

Even with all the racial intermixing, Brazilian society is steeped in both veiled and obvious racism, despite what the feeble-minded "president" says. I'm sceptical this will effect any enduring change, though.   :-\
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Tank on November 23, 2020, 05:26:07 PM
Didn't even get a sniff of that on the news here.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: Dark Lightning on November 23, 2020, 06:07:43 PM
That's horrible. That, and the 5 people killed by the police per day in Brasilia in 2019.   :???:

I'll bet those guards plead "not guilty" when they go to court. Hopefully the prosecution has the video.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: xSilverPhinx on November 23, 2020, 10:59:54 PM
Quote from: Tank on November 23, 2020, 05:26:07 PM
Didn't even get a sniff of that on the news here.

I didn't either, but then again I no longer watch or read the news.  ;)

The video of him getting beaten to death spread like wildfire through social media.
Title: Re: George Floyd
Post by: xSilverPhinx on November 23, 2020, 11:01:29 PM
Quote from: Dark Lightning on November 23, 2020, 06:07:43 PM
That's horrible. That, and the 5 people killed by the police per day in Brasilia in 2019.   :???:

I'm not surprised.

QuoteI'll bet those guards plead "not guilty" when they go to court. Hopefully the prosecution has the video.

It would be stupid to do so, practically everybody with access to a smartphone has seen the footage already, it would seem. The prosecution no doubt would have to.