Quote from: hermes2015 on September 20, 2018, 08:27:46 PM
Quote from: Dave on September 20, 2018, 07:56:03 PM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on September 20, 2018, 06:30:17 PM
Quote from: hermes2015 on September 20, 2018, 06:23:41 PM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on September 20, 2018, 05:46:53 PM
Quote from: hermes2015 on September 20, 2018, 04:56:58 PM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on September 20, 2018, 04:38:16 PM
Quote from: Fireball on September 20, 2018, 02:41:07 PM
...I recall that it is claimed that most adults dream in b&w. ...
This doesn't make sense to me. Colours are some sort of qualitative 'brain language' that don't actually exist in the world outside our bodies. In other words, our eyes pick up light frequencies and 'translate' them into the colours we experience. Since the brain makes use of colours during wakefulness, why not during sleep as well?
How I know with certainty that I dream in colour is that I have had numerous dreams where I am working on very large scale paintings in a style similar to those of Barnett Newman and Ellsworth Kelly. In my dreams I see myself planning and painting those big colour fields of pure colour in paintings of about 3m wide by 2m high. I can see the vivid reds, blues, and greens clearly in my dreams.
Do you paint while awake as well? :tellmemore:
Yes, I have done and sold a fair amount of painting and sculpture. I was even offered an exhibition by one of the Left Bank commercial galleries in Paris once, but because of the war situation in Beirut, where I was living, I couldn't do it. These days I'm doing more sculptural work.
That's so cool! I didn't know you were that accomplished. 8)
I've tried my hand at art & crafts when I was a kid, but it didn't amount to much, heh. I think I may be a bit clumsy, as I always seemed to get more paint on me than on the canvas. I was told I was creative though, at least that's something. ::)
Now, do people like neuroscientisrs and artists (and design technicians) use similar parts of their brains to create and "project" mental images I wonder? I have to "see" what I want mentally before I can create it in the physical world. Does a brainworker or surgeon build a mental "map", but like the others, adjusting it to fit reality (or final form for the creative jobs) as the work progresses?
But art and engineering tend to evolve the concept physically as progress is made, the medical worker has to evolve the theory to suit the physical facts,.
I can only speak for myself. Something (a shape, a piece of music, a texture) triggers a flash or a mental image that I then feel compelled to create. I guess one can call it inspiration. But during the creation process serendipity can play a big part. I enjoy and exploit "happy accidents".
Yes, the inception stimulous is a very variable thing, an artist may see an object or happening that starts a creative process or have a purely abstract idea that grows into its own bring in hisbor her head. Or a combination of the two?
Engineers may start off seeing a 'hole', a need, and set about designing a peg that fits it as perfectly as possible. But both may well have serendipity smile on them or suffer a 'random' shift in perceptiona and either divert or parallel the process to accomodate the new ideas.
Thinking back to scientists and surgeons working to find solutions to existing medical problems perhsps (except for the many 'surgeon-engineers' and 'practical-scientists') they have constraints the artist or designer might not suffer. However, I am sure that similar anslytical processes happen in the grey stuff - it's just that the medical person might have to inspect the hunch far more carefully for immediate risk than the artist or designer.
Though, having said that some artistic and engineering jobs need a strict eye kept on structural safety!
The design process, whether a painting, a statue, a public toilet, a concept car vs a production one or a 'simple' tool fascinates me. I used to haunt the Design Museum when I lived in and near London. I relish the new. I spend too much money on new and second hand books on art and design, 'The Buckminster-Fuller Reader' (2ndH, ex-library, but the words are all there) being the latest one,. And it has inspired me towards a small art project. More on that in the future, it is very simple and should take less than 30 minutes - but it still needs to 'mature' in my mind.
Argh! Another reason to live nearer London!
There is a new Science Gallery opening.
https://london.sciencegallery.com
Quote from: Dave
Now, do people like neuroscientisrs and artists (and design technicians) use similar parts of their brains to create and "project" mental images I wonder? I have to "see" what I want mentally before I can create it in the physical world. Does a brainworker or surgeon build a mental "map", but like the others, adjusting it to fit reality (or final form for the creative jobs) as the work progresses?
But art and engineering tend to evolve the concept physically as progress is made, the medical worker has to evolve the theory to suit the physical facts,.
I have no idea, but there are probably quite a few brain regions involved in mentally manipulating images. There is possibly a lot of overlap.
I usually 'see' written words in my mind as they're spoken, and apparently, a lot of other people do not. It's like my perspective has running subtitles. ;D This isn't a good thing, as it overloads my working memory. It's analogous to having too many computer programmes running in the background which take up RAM.
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on September 20, 2018, 09:56:50 PM
Quote from: Dave
Now, do people like neuroscientisrs and artists (and design technicians) use similar parts of their brains to create and "project" mental images I wonder? I have to "see" what I want mentally before I can create it in the physical world. Does a brainworker or surgeon build a mental "map", but like the others, adjusting it to fit reality (or final form for the creative jobs) as the work progresses?
But art and engineering tend to evolve the concept physically as progress is made, the medical worker has to evolve the theory to suit the physical facts,.
I have no idea, but there are probably quite a few brain regions involved in mentally manipulating images. There is possibly a lot of overlap.
I usually 'see' written words in my mind as they're spoken, and apparently, a lot of other people do not. It's like my perspective has running subtitles. ;D This isn't a good thing, as it overloads my working memory. It's analogous to having too many computer programmes running in the background which take up RAM.
Yep, not a good thing if it gets in the way!
I was, perhaps, thinking of medical prople holding "analogues" in their minds, mental representations, images, of structures in the body - knowing that each body, and especially the brain, will have a unique structure at the small scale.
Hmm, now I put it like that it is obvious that a person inspecting a brain is going to recognise the gross structure that is expected - though, as Einstein's brain and that of taxi drivers seems to indicate there can be fairly gross differences as well!
Now, what of the dedign of the structure of future 'artificial brains'? Where's that Dr Susan Calvin when you need her?
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on September 20, 2018, 09:56:50 PM
Quote from: Dave
Now, do people like neuroscientisrs and artists (and design technicians) use similar parts of their brains to create and "project" mental images I wonder? I have to "see" what I want mentally before I can create it in the physical world. Does a brainworker or surgeon build a mental "map", but like the others, adjusting it to fit reality (or final form for the creative jobs) as the work progresses?
But art and engineering tend to evolve the concept physically as progress is made, the medical worker has to evolve the theory to suit the physical facts,.
I have no idea, but there are probably quite a few brain regions involved in mentally manipulating images. There is possibly a lot of overlap.
I usually 'see' written words in my mind as they're spoken, and apparently, a lot of other people do not. It's like my perspective has running subtitles. ;D This isn't a good thing, as it overloads my working memory. It's analogous to having too many computer programmes running in the background which take up RAM.
Some people have told me that they see pictures when they listen to classical music. I don't see pictures, but there is sometimes a physical reaction in my body, almost like a shudder, that I also get when I see certain works of art and other objects.
I am unashamedly brought to tears by some of the more emotionally charged music. Men are not supposed to cry but I sometimes do when the music is moving.
Quote from: hermes2015 on September 21, 2018, 05:15:37 AM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on September 20, 2018, 09:56:50 PM
Quote from: Dave
Now, do people like neuroscientisrs and artists (and design technicians) use similar parts of their brains to create and "project" mental images I wonder? I have to "see" what I want mentally before I can create it in the physical world. Does a brainworker or surgeon build a mental "map", but like the others, adjusting it to fit reality (or final form for the creative jobs) as the work progresses?
But art and engineering tend to evolve the concept physically as progress is made, the medical worker has to evolve the theory to suit the physical facts,.
I have no idea, but there are probably quite a few brain regions involved in mentally manipulating images. There is possibly a lot of overlap.
I usually 'see' written words in my mind as they're spoken, and apparently, a lot of other people do not. It's like my perspective has running subtitles. ;D This isn't a good thing, as it overloads my working memory. It's analogous to having too many computer programmes running in the background which take up RAM.
Some people have told me that they see pictures when they listen to classical music. I don't see pictures, but there is sometimes a physical reaction in my body, almost like a shudder, that I also get when I see certain works of art and other objects.
I stayed with a friend for a while once and we got talking (well lubricated of course) about music and imagery. He was a fan of the less popular classical music but denied the idea of imagery, saying it did not exist (which I thought stupid but, since I needed the bed so kept gentle with). He challenged me and played a non-Vivaldi (more Mahler or Wagner in weight) 'four seasons' piece totally new to me. I did not get the seasons but got 'travel', 'anger', 'joy', 'light and dark' and similar things. He made a grudging concession. I thought he was missing a whole dimension.
The piece of music that gets me going is the theme from Straus' 'Also sprach Zarathustra'' used in '2001: a Space Oddesey' - both the music and the memory of that first hearing it, in a Leicester Square cinema, with the volume flat out and my closest RAF mates with me, are enjoyable experiences. After smell I understand sound is the second strongest memory stimulator.
Aaron Copeland's 'Theme for the common man' is also evocative on more than one level.
Quote from: hermes2015 on September 21, 2018, 05:15:37 AM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on September 20, 2018, 09:56:50 PM
Quote from: Dave
Now, do people like neuroscientisrs and artists (and design technicians) use similar parts of their brains to create and "project" mental images I wonder? I have to "see" what I want mentally before I can create it in the physical world. Does a brainworker or surgeon build a mental "map", but like the others, adjusting it to fit reality (or final form for the creative jobs) as the work progresses?
But art and engineering tend to evolve the concept physically as progress is made, the medical worker has to evolve the theory to suit the physical facts,.
I have no idea, but there are probably quite a few brain regions involved in mentally manipulating images. There is possibly a lot of overlap.
I usually 'see' written words in my mind as they're spoken, and apparently, a lot of other people do not. It's like my perspective has running subtitles. ;D This isn't a good thing, as it overloads my working memory. It's analogous to having too many computer programmes running in the background which take up RAM.
Some people have told me that they see pictures when they listen to classical music. I don't see pictures, but there is sometimes a physical reaction in my body, almost like a shudder, that I also get when I see certain works of art and other objects.
I don't see pictures either, like you, my reaction to some types of music can be more visceral than visual.
I get shudders when I listen to bass-boosted music. ;D I feel it in my bones, literally.
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on September 21, 2018, 04:13:57 PM
Quote from: hermes2015 on September 21, 2018, 05:15:37 AM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on September 20, 2018, 09:56:50 PM
Quote from: Dave
Now, do people like neuroscientisrs and artists (and design technicians) use similar parts of their brains to create and "project" mental images I wonder? I have to "see" what I want mentally before I can create it in the physical world. Does a brainworker or surgeon build a mental "map", but like the others, adjusting it to fit reality (or final form for the creative jobs) as the work progresses?
But art and engineering tend to evolve the concept physically as progress is made, the medical worker has to evolve the theory to suit the physical facts,.
I have no idea, but there are probably quite a few brain regions involved in mentally manipulating images. There is possibly a lot of overlap.
I usually 'see' written words in my mind as they're spoken, and apparently, a lot of other people do not. It's like my perspective has running subtitles. ;D This isn't a good thing, as it overloads my working memory. It's analogous to having too many computer programmes running in the background which take up RAM.
Some people have told me that they see pictures when they listen to classical music. I don't see pictures, but there is sometimes a physical reaction in my body, almost like a shudder, that I also get when I see certain works of art and other objects.
I don't see pictures either, like you, my reaction to some types of music can be more visceral than visual.
I get shudders when I listen to bass-boosted music. ;D I feel it in my bones, literally.
I felt "Also sprach Zarathustra" played flat out surround sound stereo in the cinema in my bones, skull, lungs, stomach and feet. I did not have to, "shake it all over," the music did it for me!
Quote from: Icarus on September 21, 2018, 06:43:08 AM
I am unashamedly brought to tears by some of the more emotionally charged music. Men are not supposed to cry but I sometimes do when the music is moving.
No shame n that. I often have the same reaction. I also get it when reading about incredible acts of bravery against impossible odds.
Quote from: hermes2015 on September 21, 2018, 05:15:37 AM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on September 20, 2018, 09:56:50 PM
Quote from: Dave
Now, do people like neuroscientisrs and artists (and design technicians) use similar parts of their brains to create and "project" mental images I wonder? I have to "see" what I want mentally before I can create it in the physical world. Does a brainworker or surgeon build a mental "map", but like the others, adjusting it to fit reality (or final form for the creative jobs) as the work progresses?
But art and engineering tend to evolve the concept physically as progress is made, the medical worker has to evolve the theory to suit the physical facts,.
I have no idea, but there are probably quite a few brain regions involved in mentally manipulating images. There is possibly a lot of overlap.
I usually 'see' written words in my mind as they're spoken, and apparently, a lot of other people do not. It's like my perspective has running subtitles. ;D This isn't a good thing, as it overloads my working memory. It's analogous to having too many computer programmes running in the background which take up RAM.
Some people have told me that they see pictures when they listen to classical music. I don't see pictures, but there is sometimes a physical reaction in my body, almost like a shudder, that I also get when I see certain works of art and other objects.
My daugther in law has synaesthesia, she sees colours when listening to sound and music. She sings in a choir periodically and says that being able to see the colour of the music makes it easier for her to sing in tune. Apparently good harmony looks pleasant but out of tune or disharmonious sounds look ugly. I also have a friend who has aphantasia. He is unable to mentally visualise things. He always thought that when people say they visualise something that it was a metaphore for thinking aboout things in a "verbal" fashion, which is what he does. Even when he dreams, he only uses words, not visual images. It's amazing the different ways that our brains can work!
Probably pretty common, but I can get pretty charged up by some kinds of music. I made a cassette tape off of some records (many years ago, obviously) that started out mellow and built to a crescendo. It ended with "Sweet Jane" by The Velvet Underground. It was a really enjoyable set of tunes. I seem to have lost that tape with the advent of music CDs.
In our pride, even hubris, we humans used to differentiate ourselves from other species by describing ourselves as "tool users," until we saw that birds and sea-otters - as well as chimps - also use tools. So we became "tool makers," until . . .
But there does seem to be something very fundamental in humans that attracts them to create tools, and in essence 'tools' here includes cars, microwave cookers, mathematical tables, mnenomics, possibly even clothes etc, etc etc. They are artifacts created, or modified (in form or application), to achieve something beyound our natural 'built-in' abilities. Though one might argue about mnemonics, mental constructs, there.
After a long time of watching Youtube videos, and considering my own behaviour, I have come to the conclusion that there is a human subculture where obtaining, collecting or using tools, is a strong trait. But, far more important than actually using those tools to make everyday, or even artistic, objects is using them in the creation of
new tools! These are then used to create . . . Yeah, even more tools.
To those with this infliction the wooden handle of an old saw can have as much grace and beauty as a Michaelangelo or Rodin piece. The sound of a perfectly sharpened plane cutting a long shaving from the wood as evocative as the wind in the trees. The ergodynamics and ergonomics involved, if good, satisfy the 'soul'. If bad they stimulate the analytical centres and the desire to improve things.
Tools have their own aesthetics.
(https://i.imgur.com/eCSIiJo.png)
https://www.ergonomics4schools.com/lzone/aesthetics.htm
Yes Dave, a well designed tool feels really good on the hands. I particularly like old style wood planes, there's something really satisfying about them.
(https://i.imgur.com/eCSIiJo.png)
It strikes me there are missing dimensions in the sbove - what of observation of need, analysis, inspiration and just sitting and staring, waiting for the work to 'say' something, suggest its own solutions (seemingly)?
Quote from: Dave on September 22, 2018, 04:13:36 AM
In our pride, even hubris, we humans used to differentiate ourselves from other species by describing ourselves as "tool users," until we saw that birds and sea-otters - as well as chimps - also use tools. So we became "tool makers," until . . .
But there does seem to be something very fundamental in humans that attracts them to create tools, and in essence 'tools' here includes cars, microwave cookers, mathematical tables, mnenomics, possibly even clothes etc, etc etc. They are artifacts created, or modified (in form or application), to achieve something beyound our natural 'built-in' abilities. Though one might argue about mnemonics, mental constructs, there.
After a long time of watching Youtube videos, and considering my own behaviour, I have come to the conclusion that there is a human subculture where obtaining, collecting or using tools, is a strong trait. But, far more important than actually using those tools to make everyday, or even artistic, objects is using them in the creation of new tools! These are then used to create . . . Yeah, even more tools.
To those with this infliction the wooden handle of an old saw can have as much grace and beauty as a Michaelangelo or Rodin piece. The sound of a perfectly sharpened plane cutting a long shaving from the wood as evocative as the wind in the trees. The ergodynamics and ergonomics involved, if good, satisfy the 'soul'. If bad they stimulate the analytical centres and the desire to improve things.
Tools have their own aesthetics.
(https://i.imgur.com/eCSIiJo.png)
https://www.ergonomics4schools.com/lzone/aesthetics.htm
Well said, Dave. My feelings exactly.
:boaterhat:
Yo, Dave, that's what it feels like with a carving tool, as well. Not that different from a plane, when you get down to basics.
Quote from: Dave on September 22, 2018, 05:12:28 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/eCSIiJo.png)
It strikes me there are missing dimensions in the sbove - what of observation of need, analysis, inspiration and just sitting and staring, waiting for the work to 'say' something, suggest its own solutions (seemingly)?
And then I forgot "creativity"!
Quote from: Dark Lightning on September 22, 2018, 03:30:26 PM
Yo, Dave, that's what it feels like with a carving tool, as well. Not that different from a plane, when you get down to basics.
Yes, I have not tried carving for decades but had a old set of tools with "ball ended" handles that just fitted my palms perfectly and a "shoulder" in just the right place for my thumb and finger length. Bit like big metal engraving tools and I think designed for cutting printing blocks. Living in bed sitters was no was not the style for tool lovers, sold or gave away too much.
I like that "spoon chisel" in that video 3 or 4 months ago.
Some of us are tool freaks Dave. Count me among them. I have experience as a tool and die maker and I am at my best moods when making things, including tools for making things.
My most recent project was making what the old time American boat builders called a "slick". It is a large, in my case, piece of truck spring, suitably hardened and tempered.. It is fashioned into a blade like a chisel. It would weigh about two and a half pounds and be fitted with a handle some 24 inches long. Properly sharpened it is one of the most precise of cutting tools because of its' sheer weight and the long handle. It appears to be a clumsy tool to the uninitiated but it is a joy to use by someone who has an appreciation for it. I can take a gossamer thin peel from a piece of wood with great precision. It is useful as a rabbeting tool as well. That is not the only tools that I have made, actually many more, not of the cutting variety.
Quote from: Dave on September 22, 2018, 03:38:10 PM
Quote from: Dave on September 22, 2018, 05:12:28 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/eCSIiJo.png)
It strikes me there are missing dimensions in the sbove - what of observation of need, analysis, inspiration and just sitting and staring, waiting for the work to 'say' something, suggest its own solutions (seemingly)?
And then I forgot "creativity"!
And simplicity. Things should be fit to purpose if well designed and better design can often mean gradual, incremental improvements that sometimes have to take a step back to a simpler way of doing things.
Quote from: Icarus on October 08, 2018, 12:39:08 AM
Some of us are tool freaks Dave. Count me among them. I have experience as a tool and die maker and I am at my best moods when making things, including tools for making things.
My most recent project was making what the old time American boat builders called a "slick". It is a large, in my case, piece of truck spring, suitably hardened and tempered.. It is fashioned into a blade like a chisel. It would weigh about two and a half pounds and be fitted with a handle some 24 inches long. Properly sharpened it is one of the most precise of cutting tools because of its' sheer weight and the long handle. It appears to be a clumsy tool to the uninitiated but it is a joy to use by someone who has an appreciation for it. I can take a gossamer thin peel from a piece of wood with great precision. It is useful as a rabbeting tool as well. That is not the only tools that I have made, actually many more, not of the cutting variety.
Do tell! I'd like to see an example. I do a lot of wood working and carving. If there is something that potentially works better than my planes, I'd be seriously interested! Carpenters were a big deal on a wooden ship. Those guys had to make them take on as little water as possible, for obvious reasons.
DL the slick is not a replacement for the plane. It is capable of planing but its main use is for doing delicate adjustment ( shaping, trimming, rabbeting) to a wooden part. The better control of the monster tool is simple because it is heavier and has a long handle. The blade is slightly curved the way a section of vehicle leaf spring will be. the gives the blade some heel clearance when pushing it along. The long handle lets the blade remain more or less at the same cutting angle if that is what the cut needs but it also lets you change cutting angle as desired during the cut. Think of the slick as a humongous chisel with steadier control. You can find examples on E bay.
The old time shipwrights were remarkably skillful with such tools an an adze. An Adze is something like a potato rake but larger heavier and waaay sharper. The sideways blade was used to trim large timbers to whatever shape the shipwright intended. The drill is to straddle the large timber, walk backwards while pulling the adze, either in planing action or stroking to whittle off whatever needed to be removed. The sideways super axe had the ability to deliver rather precise work in the hands of a skilled user. I fear that those master craftsmen are long gone. Nowadays we would use a chainsaw on a track or power plane to shape that huge timber. We can do it faster but not nearly as elegantly.
Just saw this. I'm like a fly in a whirlwind on the internet, I go all over the place, but just saw this. Hmm, interesting. You are right, there are likely very few people who have this knowledge and/or skill. At my old job, I had machinists using numerically controlled machines to make my stuff, when I did design work.